Author Topic: POLL: Hot Restarts for Engines (Read 1923 times)

hblair · « **Reply #105 on:** October 22, 2002, 04:18:15 PM »

What is your solution oedpius?

SirLoin · « **Reply #106 on:** October 22, 2002, 05:43:45 PM »

If I remember correctly,they shut the engines down on this puppy more than once to gain an advantage on the enemy...

"Beam me up Scotty,there is no intelligent life in this thread!'

hitech · « **Reply #107 on:** October 23, 2002, 10:25:13 AM »

I've had an engine stop while at the top of a roll in a swift do to haveing the fuel selector on wrong tank. I've switch mags to off momentarly durring run ups. In both cases once spark or fuel was restored the engine had instant power. If the props turning,fuel is there in the right mixture, and there is a spark, the engine will run. When turning off mags to an engine, the only thing you are doing is removing a spark, fuel is still flowing, the air fuel mixture is being compresed and exausted. The engine is still turning at the same rpm, assuming you havn't feathered the props. When spark is reaplied the engine will be producing power instantly.

As for pilots not doing it very often, the resone they didn't is because there are almost always much better options for defense tatics, not because it wouldn't do what it would in AH.

In fact there are almost always better options than choping throttle in engagments. And very few pilots would pull back on throttle unless they were in a over speed situation. So should we now force people when slow to never pull back on the throttle because we think it's to gammy?

Bob shaw once used the line about fighting, if your not cheating your not fighting. The evening before a marchetti fight I was buying my opponet B52's, while im drinking sharps. Bob said the next day, thats the first 12 hour lead turn he has seen. Was I cheating or "Gamming" by giving this guy a hangover the next morning? Or was I using every method I could think of to beet him?

Now this is not to be confused with hacking, or breaking the rules. But if you realy want to portray the attitude of a fighter pilot. The rule is never give the sucker an even break. It refers to stuff like Chuck yeager modifying his f86 engine when fighting a budy of his in an f86. He wanted every advantage he could get.

So now put yourself in a real war situation with some one on your but where you have run out of options and can't think of any thing else to do.

If you thought shutting you engine off would get you out of the fix would you?

I can just see a pilot falling for an engine shut off, doing an over shoot and be forced to dissengage. When he is at his debrief he tells his commander. "I would have killed that guy, except he cheated and turned off his engine". What do you think his commander would say?

Just because somthing was not the norm in WWII, dosn't meen it wasn't tried, or couldn't be done.

HiTech

hblair · « **Reply #108 on:** October 23, 2002, 10:33:46 AM »

Great post HT. You have inspired me to remap "E" to my stick!

hblair · « **Reply #109 on:** October 23, 2002, 10:53:26 AM »

I think many of these guys who are sooo adamently opposed to the engine cut thingy are just scared of the unknown. Has anyone proved that it gives you a huge advantage? no. People just assume it does and "It must stop!" Heh. Peoples true colors come out that's for sure.

Yeager · « **Reply #110 on:** October 23, 2002, 11:35:52 AM »

Realism must be tempered with gameplay concessions.

As for any plane with a single 30 or a 50 or two 50s for a rear gunner, I would say sure enable them with tires on the runway (besides. them little guns dont have much impact) but once you get up to a multi slaved gun position bomber like a B17 Id have to say no way in hell. So what does HTC do?

They disable ALL gunners positions OTG. I agee. Gameplay concession.

I must add that I have recently seen a B17 firing while still on the ground but moving. Theres something to watch out for.

As for the engine thing. I have some practice dueling film. I am studying it but I must say the guy was kicking my bellybutton in a rather dominating way -same plane -same loadout. Ive been around long enough to know that I was getting trumped in a situation where I should have had at least some degree of success 2 out of 5? maybe 3 out of 9? It was like 0-10. Only difference between us was the other guy was constantly turning the engine on/off throughout the ACM and I wasnt. Im not against doing this engine thing. I cant find anything unbelievable about it, yet. And if HTC allows it then it is valid IMO.

Midnight · « **Reply #111 on:** October 23, 2002, 12:19:46 PM »

I still don't agree.

I also think that anyone who uses this tactic should be barred from making ANY comments on the AH flight model from now on.

Hitech's comments alone seem to promote anything that is out of the norm to win. Trying to enhance reality doesn't seem to be HTs objective any more.

So, If the N1K can hang on it's prop with no torque effect, then I guess it's because the pilot installed an opposing torque converter or some other modification to give him that ability.

If the P38s dive flaps don't work, it's because some other guy came and sabataged them in the hanger.

LW cannons not firing the way they should? Must have been the allies who came and screwed with them.

GV armor is not strong enough? The other guy must be using more powerful ammo.

Auto-retracting flaps... pilot modification obviously

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So when can I expect to have a working K14 gunsight in my Mustang then, Hitech? It wold give me an advantage that my plane of choice actualy had. Or is it never going to be implemented because then there would be too many whines from the people who fly planes that didn't have computating gunsights?

ccvi · « **Reply #112 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:00:24 PM »

I think turning the engine off just gives an usable advantage because the angular momentum (of prop and rotating engine parts) is overmodeled. If it was lower, the effect of turning off the engine would be much less.

hitech, how big is the rotational inertia of the rotating parts on e.g. the 109g10? If there are parts rotating at different than indicated rpm, please also post their inertia and relative rpm proportion.

I just would like to get a better imagination of how big that rotating thing in front of the plane is.

Yeager · « **Reply #113 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:00:52 PM »

Its the old sim/game ying/yang thing you got going there!

Welp, you aint gonna get much more realism than you already have. Truth hurts.

I know........I gave up on asking for realism about the time the big crowd moved in. Most of the folks now in the game want just that, a game. A fun game.

HTC has known from the very beginning that in order to attract the big crowds (and the associated financial success the big crowd brings in) they would need to have a generally believable but very fun game, not a difficult challenging sim. Sure, have some aspects more difficult and challenging, and capable of being disabled, but By-God, its got to be fun and you know what? They are dead on right!

Get over it and just accept what you have. I did, and I can honestly say its alright to play the game. Hell, its still fun.

Someday my sim will come, in some respects it already has and a new add-on might just make it tops, but until then I just have fun dorking about the arenas, paying my little fee to the fortune.

Midnight · « **Reply #114 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:07:07 PM »

Of course you are right Yeager.

It's better just to let go and deal with it I guess.

hblair · « **Reply #115 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:32:02 PM »

Getting my arse kicked by pilots I never heard of in duels is the best thing that ever happened to me. Ya see, it either challenges you to become more diverse and better or you can just blame it all on some "exploitation of the game". Thataway you can steenk and have a perfectly logical excuse for it!

Midnight · « **Reply #116 on:** October 23, 2002, 02:40:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hblair
Getting my arse kicked by pilots I never heard of in duels is the best thing that ever happened to me. Ya see, it either challenges you to become more diverse and better or you can just blame it all on some "exploitation of the game". Thataway you can steenk and have a perfectly logical excuse for it!

It's fugging lame.

Getting killed in a 1-v-1 against a guy using this tactic is the same as getting your bellybutton kicked in Tekken. You loose, not becuase the guy is a better fighter than you, but becuase he knew the 'double-fisted-backwards-catapult-flip' key press combination.

When I went to Air Combat USA one of the first things the pilot told me was to leave the engine at full power once we got into the fight. When I started to loose the turn on the other guy in one of the fights, he didn't say "hey let's toggle the magnetos on and off so we can get position"

I would like to be able to get into a fight with another P-51 and know that the only thing the guy can do to beat me is use better maneuvers and manage his E better, not because he was toggling his engine on and off the whole fight so he could get a turn advantage.

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BTW, I still challenge someone to go out in a real aircraft and try doing engine shutdowns and restarts to full power while they are maneuvering in high G turns.

Or better yet, any of you that have access to real WWII birds...

Ask the owner if he would mind you chunking his engine from WEP to shutdown and then back to WEP again. Ask him if you can do it 3 or 4 times while pulling 4G+ at 1000 feet. I am sure if the engine would do this without issue, the owner of said aircraft would give you his full blessing. Hell, he'd probably ride shotgun with you while you did it

HFMudd · « **Reply #117 on:** October 23, 2002, 03:07:12 PM »

Stupid question from a know nothing lame stick newb...

Has anyone done the following test yet? Let a plane reach max speed in level flight at 5K, chop the THROTTLE back all the way and go into a vertical climb, note the highest altitude reached. Now repeat the test but cut the engine instead of throttling back.

What's the result?

(I'm at work at the moment or would try this.)

Dago · « **Reply #118 on:** October 23, 2002, 03:23:48 PM »

Quote

Ask the owner if he would mind you chunking his engine from WEP to shutdown and then back to WEP again. Ask him if you can do it 3 or 4 times while pulling 4G+ at 1000 feet. I am sure if the engine would do this without issue, the owner of said aircraft would give you his full blessing. Hell, he'd probably ride shotgun with you while you did it

You seem to be missing a very obvious differance. WWII combat aircraft were not privately owned and paid for, abusing them to stay alive when someone was trying to kill you would be plenty acceptable.

In one of the remaining warbirds of today, nobody heaps abuse on them as they are almost without exception owned and supported by private individuals, at great personal expense. You are trying to compare two entirely differant operational situations that really have no common ground except an aircraft is involved.

In combat, a Merlin engine certainly wasnt expected to last more than 250 hrs.

dago

Nefarious · « **Reply #119 on:** October 23, 2002, 03:33:58 PM »

I really dont see what the big fuss is about. I dont use this technique, but i do chop throttle If I am going to overshoot especially against buffs.

What i dont get is going historical enough in some aspects and not in another.

If an aircraft engine suddenly cuts off in Negative G dives, ie Spitfire Mk I. Why dont we have other major flaws other aircraft had?

I think we need more realistic engine controls. And Gun jams.

Maybe for the Mission Arena

what do you think HT?