Author Topic: Why the La7 is so Uber(important)  (Read 2457 times)

Offline ra

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #90 on: November 04, 2002, 08:25:31 PM »
Tilt,

That's a menu from a Russian steakhouse.

ra

Offline HoHun

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2002, 01:04:59 AM »
Hi Tilt,

>Early La5 fns were fitted with only 3 of the 5 tanks fitted in the original La 5

Ah, finally something to classify Lerche's Lavochkin :-) So if it had 460 L only, it must have been one of those!

>Air intake clutter at the wing roots and attempts to lighten the fuel load forced the La 7 back to 3 tanks ( 460/470 L).

Did you read Prokryshkin's "Sky of War"? In the final stages of the war, his squadron flew Lavochkins, and they had some difficulty to keep up with the moving frontline. They finally used a length of Autobahn as their base, though it was tough to keep the tanks from rolling down the landing strip all the time :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Shane

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2002, 02:23:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
If you fight vs a spit or La7 loaded with 75% of fuel you will see incredible moves and E retention, but if you fight a spit or La7 loaded with 25% of fuel you are actually fighting an ufo.


don't you just hate it when they put a crimp on your historical vulching streaks in your dorka?

:mad:
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
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Offline niklas

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2002, 05:40:57 AM »
No serial La-5FN had 5 Fuel tanks.

Even The La-5F fuelload was already reduced by 50k / ~70l. While the La-5 had 390kg fuel, the La-5F and all further models had 345 kg.

What i read is that studies from "Zaks" permitted to eliminate the outer fuel tanks with 3 new tanks concentrated in the center section, but total fuel capacity remained the same, so "only" 3 tanks is not quite correct. This was introduced with the 82FN engine.
And it stayed this way.

Maybe they build a long range La5FN but the usual serial FN had 460l maximum

Otherwise takeoff weight would have been way over 3400kg. Even the La-5FN with 460L had a takeoff weight of 3300kg (or 3350 in german sources). But you won´t be able to show me a takeoff weight of over 3400kg.

niklas

Offline F4UDOA

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2002, 09:36:21 AM »
Mandoble,

I hope you see this post because I just want to make my point clear. I am not whining about the performance of the La-7 or Spit (And I have more of a reason to suspect the Spit of being a bit to fuel efficient as I did the LA-7).

What I am whining about is how the A/C with large fuel loads are affected.

If you want an example take an F4U-1, F6F or P-47 and put 75% fuel in it. Fly it offline and note the stalls, climb and turn radius. Then put 25% in the tank and try it. It is a huge difference because these A/C carry huge amounts of fuel. The difference is not nearly as pronounced in the La-7 and Spit because they cary so little fuel it really doesn't affect their wing loading as significantly. But in the case of the F6F, F4U-1 and P-47 the wing loading from 100% to 25% can range for instance in the F4U-1 from 40.87 with 100% to 25% fuel wingloading of 35.7. That is the differance between a P-51D and a NIK2. And the fact that any of these A/C with 50% fuel are carrying more fuel than the La-7 has in it's capicity.

So not only will these flying fuel tanks be able to carry less fuel but they will be able to fly longer with less fuel relative to the smaller A/C. So my performance gap won't be nearly so large for so long.

What the guy in the La-7 chooses to do is not at all my concern.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2002, 11:29:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by niklas
No serial La-5FN had 5 Fuel tanks.

Even The La-5F fuelload was already reduced by 50k / ~70l. While the La-5 had 390kg fuel, the La-5F and all further models had 345 kg.

What i read is that studies from "Zaks" permitted to eliminate the outer fuel tanks with 3 new tanks concentrated in the center section, but total fuel capacity remained the same, so "only" 3 tanks is not quite correct. This was introduced with the 82FN engine.
And it stayed this way.

Maybe they build a long range La5FN but the usual serial FN had 460l maximum

Otherwise takeoff weight would have been way over 3400kg. Even the La-5FN with 460L had a takeoff weight of 3300kg (or 3350 in german sources). But you won´t be able to show me a takeoff weight of over 3400kg.

niklas


I agree no La5F or La5FN ever had 5 tanks (proper) ..and would also accept that the 5 tank set up was a Lagg3 set up the La5  still had the 65 litre tanks in the outer wing which were deleted in the La5f. There could be some confusion here because the first la5's were made with LaGG wings which would have the outer tanks........latterly as the wings were made for the La5 (rather than those left in prioduction) with slats etc the outer tank might well have been removed.

With the advent of the metal spared wing in the last few La5F and and a large proportion of the La5FN they were able and did increase the fuel load to four tanks. Being one in each  inner wing containing 148 l each and two central tanks of 168 litres each.

The La5FN metal sparred wing saved   about 179Kg over its wooden counter part however many La5FN's were produced with wooden sparred wings again due to wings being produced far in advance of other production needs. The weight trade off between spar and tank would explain the full weight below3400kg,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you will see data on full weight vary from 3250 kg to 3375 kg across various texts.

I refered to 5 tanks proper above because actually there was a 5th tank which I consider to be part of the fuel system.............it was small (i dont know its actual capacity) and housed just to the rear of the engine.

reading further it seems a reasonable deduction that is was one of the 168 L central tanks that was removed in the La7.............this to make way for the air duct work from the inner wing area and the hydraulic/oil system now re piped under the pilots cockpit.

If you have any reference stuff to the contrary I would be obliged if you could provide it.

Ho Hun

I wish wish wish I could get an English translation of Prokryshkin's memoirs............... his squad did not like the La7 having formulated tactics heavily defined by the Air Cobra.........as some one who flew most types of VVS AC in combat.............. I would dearly like to read his comparative views.

I have often thought that the Rechlin la5FN was a early wooden sparred one...........but then you go and spoil it by stating it had a FN"V" engine which is definately a 44 classification for front line La's.
Ludere Vincere

Offline niklas

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2002, 01:22:37 PM »
They save the weight mainly with the elimination of the outer fuel tanks, and not with the metal spars. And this was realized already for the first -5FN.
Actually i have meanwhie the impression that the differences in takeoff weight depends on whether they calculated the pilot weight in or not.

Stalin demanded a higher range, and Zaks proposed a higher fuelload, but problems with the COG didn´t allow it.

What source do you use?

niklas

Offline HoHun

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2002, 01:36:26 PM »
Hi Tilt,

>I have often thought that the Rechlin la5FN was a early wooden sparred one...........but then you go and spoil it by stating it had a FN"V" engine which is definately a 44 classification for front line La's.

Is the fuel tank size of any help? I couldn't follow the details of your discussion with Niklas :-) Maybe it was an aircraft that underwent an engine change? The weight without fuel/oil/ammunition/pilot was 2773 kg, take-off weight 3347 kg.

>I wish wish wish I could get an English translation of Prokryshkin's memoirs...............

To find a used German copy of GDR origin would be easy via Amazon and the associated ZShops - I could pick from 18 examples, I think. I'm not even sure the book actually was translated to English, though.

>his squad did not like the La7 having formulated tactics heavily defined by the Air Cobra.........

They didn't? Suprising - nothing in his book suggests that (if I remember correctly).

>I would dearly like to read his comparative views.

Pokryshkin criticized the MiG series aircraft at first sight for its lack of cannon armament, and later as too heavy compared to the Luftwaffe fighters. I think the latter criticism gave him a lot of trouble as he was thrown out of the Communist Party for that, which he considered highly unfair, but he was rehabilitated relatively quickly. (The Airacobra received similar criticism for being overweight, if I remember correctly.)

After given the order to pick a fighter type to re-equip his unit with, Pokryshkin went to Moscow. After a coupel of test flights, his opinion of the Jakovlev fighter was that with a single cannon, it was lacking in firepower, and he prepared a diplomatic formulation of that opinion for his discussion with Jakovlev.

Jakovlev however, who was a great Stalin supporter, apparently considered Pokryshkin suspect due to the black spot on his party records (my personal guess), and left the visiting Pokryshkin without reply.

On the same evening, though, Lavochkin rang at Pokryshkin's door. Lavochkin was very enthusiastic and showed great interest in Pokryshkin's experiences and ideas as well as in the fate of pilots he had met earlier, and invited Pokryshkin to the factory, asking him for his opinions on the latest Lavochkin design.

Pokryshkin's central question on the new La-7 was "Cannon or machine guns?" The answer he received from an armourer at Lavochkin's factory: "Machine guns - what for? The fascists are pouring cannon shells at you, and you want to respond with bullets? That's of no use. Am I right?" Of course, Pokryshkin agreed :-)

So Pokryshkin decided on Lavochkins - though the La-7 wasn't ready yet and they first were equipped with La-5s.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2002, 02:07:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Tilt,


So Pokryshkin decided on Lavochkins - though the La-7 wasn't ready yet and they first were equipped with La-5s.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Interesting ..................... he was then in command of 9GIAD?  

Hans Seidl has him converting directly to the La7............


Niklas

Gordon & kazimov, as well as Hans Heiri Stapfer............

The claimed weight saving (for the metal spar) is pretty clearly nothing to do with the saving of the outer tank which had been eliminated over a year before hand.
Ludere Vincere

Offline MANDOBLE

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2002, 02:18:17 PM »
F4UDOA, your point is crystal clear and valid. My point is that range is not a valuable factor when you dont plan to return, and this is actually a common denominator in the MA.

I've done a lot of tests with SpitIX, Typh and D9 offline and in DA with 100% and 25% fuel, and basically, all the planes performance is affected in the same way by the fuel load difference. Yes, there is a notable difference between a 100% loaded spit and a 25% one.

Offline Puke

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2002, 04:29:54 PM »
Quote
My point is that range is not a valuable factor when you dont plan to return, and this is actually a common denominator in the MA.


Sure there is.  It means the LA7 has less time chasing me around and/or it means the LA7 has to put more fuel in its tanks if it wants to fight for any appreciable amount of time and thus be subject to weight penalties such as most other aircraft.

Offline HoHun

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2002, 05:16:54 PM »
Hi Tilt,

>Interesting ..................... he was then in command of 9GIAD?  

>Hans Seidl has him converting directly to the La7............

He was promoted to lieutenant colonel while he was in Moscow to decide on an aircraft. He returned to his regiment (which he lead at that time), and found a telegram by Lavochkin there stating that they could take delivery of their fighters, which turned out to be La-5s. On re-reading, I'd say they only received two aircraft, which they flew to Moscow where they did the administrative work for the delivery of the La-7,  and then returned to the regiment with these La-5s. Pokryshkin was made commander of his air division (9th "Maruipol" Guard Division) on that day.

Apparently, the La-7 was only collected at the Moscow factor after 18 August 1944, where Pokryshkin still was at the front, and a 6-day leave from the front to Nowosibirsk following that date.

In October, the division - which had been pulled out of combat for the conversion - hadn't converted fully yet, and they remained in re-eqiupment and training status until they were ordered back to the front on 8 January 1945, entering combat on 12 January.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tilt

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Why the La7 is so Uber(important)
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2002, 06:22:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Tilt,
In October, the division - which had been pulled out of combat for the conversion - hadn't converted fully yet, and they remained in re-eqiupment and training status until they were ordered back to the front on 8 January 1945, entering combat on 12 January.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


that bit I knew.........the irony was that once proven by 63 GIAP annd 176 IAP  9GIAP would have been the 3rd but in fact due to delays and accidents they were delayed into action beyond several other units............

Milos Vestik writes that some elements of this regiment did go into action in November 44 as part of 303IAD............they fought beside the Normandie Niemen.............. or they would have but very rainy weather grounded them for long periods.......

They next particiapated in the January push of the 3rd byelorussian front.as your text confirms
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Offline joeblogs

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Endurance of USN Hvy Iron...
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2002, 06:53:52 PM »
This is one of two notes to summarize what I learned from the voluminous data already presented in this thread.  This note addresses US aircraft built around the P&W R2800 engine.  The second note deals with what we have learned about the La-7, built around the Ash-82FN engine.

Thanks to charts contained in the posts by F4UDOA, it does not take much work to nail down the fuel economy of two versions of the R2800.  I’ll focus on just the R2800-8, the workhorse of the F4u-1. I’ll pretend this is also the engine used in the F6f, when in fact that plane used an engine that was a little less powerful. F4UDOA also gave us numbers for the –21 model (used on the P57) which are only a little different, primarily because of the turbo supercharger installed.

I have generated a table and two charts of the resulting data (see below).  The table tells it all, but the charts may be easier to follow.  The first point to start with is Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC), which is really what the argument about endurance is all about.  

The first chart plots SFC in US gallons/horsepower/hour.  Note there are really two lines to consider which are driven by the choice of fuel mixture – auto lean or auto rich.  SFC at minimum fuel consumption or maximum cruise are very similar and do not very much with altitude.  That’s why it pays to fly higher at a modest manifold pressure.  On auto rich settings (other than WEP), SFC is about 80 percent higher and it is somewhat more sensitive to altitude.  The difference between normal and military power is not very great.  SFC for WEP is higher, for the reasons described in our thread – you are substituting water for fuel and adding more air, so you are leaning out the fuel mixture.

How does this translate into endurance (hours in the air)?  That is illustrated in the second chart.  I have to caution that these numbers are somewhat over estimated because they may assume you are get to the specified altitudes without burning any fuel (below I present an alternative calculation where this is not an issue and I can show nearly the same results).  Also I’m am using the wrong engine model for the F6f, but that too does not matter much.

The result is that all settings that use a rich fuel mixture, internal fuel gets you about an hour’s flight time in the F6f and slightly less in the F4u-1.  The military setting is a little worse, giving you only about 50 minutes of time.  The max cruise setting gives you 3 hours of flying time at virtually any altitude and would be what most of us should expect if we are serious about missions like CAP or long haul escorts.  The minimum fuel economy would get you an obscene 4-6 hours of flying time on internal fuel.  But we should remember that it may not include the climb and it is much more sensitive to altitude.

From the table we see that fuel consumption varies by nearly 7 times from the most economical to the most rapacious settings.  The worst performance on auto lean is more than twice as good as the best setting on auto rich.  Maximum cruise is attained using half the engine's rated horsepower and only 30 percent of the fuel consumed at the rated horsepower.  

Should we believe the fuel economy numbers?

I would say yes because we can observe nearly the same data from two economists who carefully studied how radial engine performance affected costs in civil aviation before and after the war (Miller and Sawyers, Technical Development of Modern Aviation).  Here are their numbers for engines of the same era:

Wright Cyclone (R 1820)   87 octane      0.57
Wright Cyclone (R 2600)   100 octane   0.47
P&W Double Wasp (R 2800)   100/130 octane   0.42

The Cyclone was known for its fuel efficiency in its day.  Note the primary gain in specific fuel consumption across these engines is due to the substitution of fuel with more energy.  Note also these numbers almost certainly assume a lean fuel mixture, as the authors’ focus almost exclusively on civil aviation where fuel economy is important.

Another implication is that one should not believe a SFC below 0.40 for a 1940s high output radial engine.  It’s possible that the really good water cooled engines did better, because their lower cylinder head temperatures allowed them to run on a leaner fuel mixture.  Heron's history of aviation fuels (1949) suggests the best SFC obtained from a high output engine was 0.37 on 115 PN avgas on a postwar US engine (the Wright Turbo-Compound Cyclone R3350).

I point this out because some calculations in this thread based on data for the Ash-82FN imply a SFC of 0.30 or lower, which is simply incredible.  

A better calculation of endurance for the F6f

Now I turn to the data contained in the Standard Aircraft Characteristics chart (dated 1949) from Hal Andrews, "F6F Hellcat," Naval Aviation News Sept-Oct 1988.  A copy can be downloaded from

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/fighter.htm.

I work right off the chart to minimize the chances of introducing an error.  That means I will use the standard fighter load out with full fuel and a drop tank, and assuming a climb to 15,000 feet.

There is separate estimate of range in which the drop tank is dropped prior to combat, but this introduces a lot of uncertainty into the calculations so I ignore it.

Based on the chart, the F6f-5 with a full load of fuel (internal and external), has a “combat range” of 950 nautical miles at an average speed of 178 knots an hour.  950 knots/178 knots/hr = 5.3 hours of flying time

We can also work out the best fuel consumption using the SAC. Assuming the tanks are empty at landing (there should at least be 20 gallons in the reserve), we have 400 gallons/5.3 hrs = 75 gallons/hr, a number in between the estimates for minimum fuel consumption and maximum cruise in F4UFOA’s charts.  Note that on internal fuel only (250 gallons), we are getting an estimate of endurance of 3 hours and 20 minutes, just a little better than what is shown in the previous chart.

One other thing to note from this source - In the description of the Fighter combat Radius formula, we see the climb-out calls for 60 percent normal sea-level power.  The chart is good enough to tell us that at 6,200 ft, normal power is 1,710 HP.  Given the plane is at low blower there is practically no drop-off in performance of the R2800 at such a low altitude so we can assume this as a good approximation of normal sea-level power.  Sixty percent of this amount is 1026 HP, just about half the maximum output of this engine.  That is pretty much what we observe for economical cruise settings in F4UDOA’s charts.

I mention this because it is a plausible way to approximate horsepower at a cruise setting when you don’t have the information and you’d like to estimate specific fuel consumption.  For example, with the La-7, we have numbers on the engine’s rated and emergency horsepower but not at a cruising power setting.  That’s one reason why the thread took so long to converge.

-Blogs

p.s. I don't seem to know how to post more than one attachment at a time so I'll drop them in a sequence of posts
« Last Edit: January 22, 2003, 12:33:24 PM by joeblogs »

Offline joeblogs

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Specific Fuel Consumption for R2800-8
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2002, 07:00:08 PM »
This from F4UDOA's data

-Blogs