K-4 pls....

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Vermillion
"switchable" gun circuits 190s

What do you mean?

[Kweassa]

He means the debate on the 190A-8 armed with 30mms.

 Some FW190 pilots state they had three firing circuits, first for the MG131s, second for MG151/20 and the third for MK108.

 This debate happened really long ago, and the rest of the details are fuzzy to me. (However, I seem to remember neither of the both sides proved anything... just controversial evidence laid out by both sides.. anyhow, it was an interesting debate.)

[HoHun]

Hi GScholz,

>What do you mean?

May I introduce myself? I'm Vermillions's "rabid 'wonder wobble' fantic who insists on "switchable" gun circuits 190s. "

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47955&highlight=incomplete+undocumented+origin

On the other hand, I'm not even remotely related to Vermillion's "rabid 'wonder wobble' fantic who insists on MG151/15's in 109K's".

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54210&highlight=Interesting+opinion

You never know whether we "rabid 'wonder wobble' fantics" use facts or myth when we strike, but it's always a good idea to insult us preemptively so that we keep down our heads.

Works every time ;-)

Regards,

Henning

(rabid 'wonder wobble' fantics association, facts faction)

[GScholz]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi GScholz,

>What do you mean?

May I introduce myself? I'm Vermillions's "rabid 'wonder wobble' fantic who insists on "switchable" gun circuits 190s. "

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47955&highlight=incomplete+undocumented+origin

On the other hand, I'm not even remotely related to Vermillion's "rabid 'wonder wobble' fantic who insists on MG151/15's in 109K's".

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54210&highlight=Interesting+opinion

You never know whether we "rabid 'wonder wobble' fantics" use facts or myth when we strike, but it's always a good idea to insult us preemptively so that we keep down our heads.

Works every time ;-)

Regards,

Henning

(rabid 'wonder wobble' fantics association, facts faction)

LOL!

Actually I do belive that the 190īs with 30mm 108's and 20mm 151's did have  some sort of selector. I recollect an interview with an old LW pilot on the Discovery channel who said he opened up with his 20mm's, and when he got closer (to the bomber) he switched to 30mm's. Would make sense given the difference in ballistics of the two weapons. The quad 151 armed 190's probably didn't have this feature. Dosn't really make much difference to me though, scince I prefer the quad 151 armament option. Plenty of firepower and better ballistics.

[HoHun]

Hi Gscholz,

>I recollect an interview with an old LW pilot on the Discovery channel who said he opened up with his 20mm's, and when he got closer (to the bomber) he switched to 30mm's.

Yes, it's exactly that kind of comment that started the discussion. Vermillion's comment has renewed my interest in this topic, and I've turned to Butch for help (who is the real expert in these matters). Butch thinks I might be wrong, but so far, he couldn't say that for certain either :-)

What I learned is that in the Fw 190A-3, "switchable guns circuits" were a reality, though it seems the system was revised before the introduction of the A-8. S,o their existence is still open for that plane and, more importantly, its R2 and R8 variants.

I really love these discussions - no matter what the final outcome might be, there's always something to learn from them! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[butch2k]

Hohun,
I asked my parents to send me some data i have at my old place (actually theirs), i hope they'll manage to find but it may take a few since it has been packed with toejamload of other documents for quite a long time. I really hope i'll be able to move to smthg larger and get back all my books from my parents.
So expect an answer soon (i hope...)

[Vermillion]

Hohun, have you seen the section of the A8 manual regarding this issue that I've posted in the past? Its quite explicit on the issue.

If you haven't seen it, I might be able to find it again, or scan it in.

[Vermillion]

Here it is Fw190A8 Armament Operation Panel

[Pongo]

as we established earlier. In the 190a8. the pilot could select to fire the mgs and the inner cannons or the outer cannons or all three. That makes more sence then what we have in AH. Which pairs the 20mm and 30mm together and wastes one. The ballistics of the 13mm and the 20mm are way closer then the 20mm and the 30mm.

[whgates3]

i could see want to fire only the inner pair of MG151/20 if the target was outside convergence distance, or not in the same plane (geometric use of the word) and inside convergence distance, but its not even almost a big deal

[GScholz]

It probably is a big deal for those who prefer the 151/108 gun package.

[HoHun]

Hi Vermillion,

>Hohun, have you seen the section of the A8 manual regarding this issue that I've posted in the past? Its quite explicit on the issue.

Looking at it again armed with the additional background information on the Fw 190A-3, I find the following paragraph of special interest:

"The operating system for each weapons group is fully electrical and includes (inclusive of circuit breakers and electrical lines):

1. SVK 2-151/131E fuse and distributor box, and
2. EDSK-81 gun cocking control box."

Since the German fuses were doubling as switches (slightly different from the circuit breakers in the P-51 for example which lacked the option to be switched off manually), this means that the fuse and distributor box gave the pilot the control which weapons group to fire or not.

The fuse and distributor box is not described in the following text, but the missing section of the A-8 manual (the "Fixed Barrel Armament" part) should have some more detail on that.

Still, by either switching off the wingroot cannon or the cowl MGs, the pilot could select which of these weapons to fire with the A button on the stick, just like in the Fw 190A-3.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Vermillion]

Thats quite speculative HoHun.  

I'll look to see if I have that additional section your describing.

But regardless, that is not how the aircraft was designed to operate, theoretically possible maybe, but not how the aircraft was designed.  That would definitely fall into the same area as "hot rodded" aircraft or field modifications, and is not a "standard feature".

[HoHun]

Hi Vermillion,

>Thats quite speculative HoHun.  

Yes, of course! :-) But it shows that there's a way gun circuits could have been switchable that's not contradicting the information we have. That doesn't mean it really was as I speculated - it just shows that we don't have enough information to prove it either way.

>But regardless, that is not how the aircraft was designed to operate, theoretically possible maybe, but not how the aircraft was designed.  That would definitely fall into the same area as "hot rodded" aircraft or field modifications, and is not a "standard feature".

If the Fw 190 left the production lines eqipped with these circuit breakers, it was a standard feature. It might not have been standard Luftwaffe doctrine to use this feature, but that's a difference.

>I'll look to see if I have that additional section your describing.

That would be great! I've seen this section for the Me 410, and if the Fw 190 section is similar, we'd probably have the definite answer.

(The Me 410 section shows that there was one circuit breaker switch for the cannon group and one for the MG group. Since both weapons groups had their own arming switch on the round counter and their own trigger, their switching function had no tactical benefit however, so it's not quite the same as in a Fw 190.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)