Author Topic: Trim functions (Read 1536 times)

frank3 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 14, 2003, 11:29:48 AM »

oh well, the keypresses arent so bad either

crowbaby · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2003, 11:44:56 AM »

<>

No, they're fine. But they're not what pilots use to fly their planes, and seeing as many of us now have HOTAS set ups, it can't hurt to ask for other input options.

Revvin · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2003, 12:15:36 PM »

Quote

Ahh, i thought we were talking about mapping to a rotary axis? in which case there would be no 'neutral' position

The centre of the axis would be neutral, I can't remember if my old X36 had a centre detent but the Cougar does, does'nt the X45 have a centre position on the rotary?

maxtor · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2003, 02:00:29 PM »

indeed several have the cougar hotas, but many many more do not.

I am still using a SFS dual throttle, I use one of the throttle's hat switches for trim. Maybe with some experimentation you could work out something simlar with your cougars.

crowbaby · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2003, 02:01:59 PM »

>>The centre of the axis would be neutral, I can't remember if my old X36 had a centre detent but the Cougar does, does'nt the X45 have a centre position on the rotary?<<

Yes, but trim doesn't have a 'centre' to return to, the way stick or rudders do. The centre detent would simply correspond to the middle of the trim dials, an arbitrary trim speed.

Revvin · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2003, 02:21:50 PM »

Crowbaby I think you're missing the point, if trim just returned to centre then it would be no better than what we have now. What I asked for is trim to be mapped to an axis such as IL-2's system where you dial in the trim and then move the trim wheel back again so yes the trim wheel would stay in position as it should giving tactile feedback of your trim.

maxtor> I already have trim mapped to button presses on my Cougar and have mapped such controls to every stick I've owned, CH, Saitek etc but to have trim mapped to an axis gives you tactile feedback to trim position as well as being more intuitive IMHO than hitting a button a few times. Many sticks now have analogue rotary axis such as the X36 (quite an old stick now) the X45 (the X36 replacement) both of which are budget sticks available for under £100 so it's not just expensive sticks like the Cougar that would benefit. From what I've read of the hardware forums (probably the forum I read most here) there are not only many Cougar owners but also a very large number using X36's or X45's so there are many users who would benefit should HTC decide to implement this suggestion.

crowbaby · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2003, 03:07:35 PM »

Sorry, i really must be missing the point. The way i saw it was:

I have a rotary with a range from X at one end to Y at the other. There is a detent in the centre. The rotary stays where i put it. Now, i assumed that if we could map trim to rotaries, i could have full up elevator trim at X, and full down at Y, with the detent representing an arbitrary point in the middle - basically the centre point on the trim needle dial we have at the moment. On a rotary this would give a physical feedback for trim setting, and could allow us much finer adjustment.

>>where you dial in the trim and then move the trim wheel back again<<
I don't understand this, what am i missing? If we 'bounce' a rotary to change trim, returning it to the centre to stop our input, isn't this much the same as the key control we have now?

Revvin · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2003, 04:09:14 PM »

The way you explain trim can be done right now, it's only emulating pressing a button. I have my rotaries mapped as digital inputs so it works as follows:

10% around centre is neutral but moving it up or down past this central 10% region makes a constant keypress engaging trim buttons.

If you had an analogue input for trim you could rotate the trim 2%, 10% or whatever you felt like and it would input 2% or 10% trim or however far you moved the trim wheel.

crowbaby · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2003, 04:32:59 PM »

>>If you had an analogue input for trim you could rotate the trim 2%, 10% or whatever you felt like and it would input 2% or 10% trim or however far you moved the trim wheel.<<

My fault for not expressing myself clearly : what you have said here is exactly what i was talking about.

So, if the trim rotary goes from 1%-100% (i.e. full up to full down) then i don't follow you when you talk about the 'centre' of the axis being 'neutral' - there is no such thing as neutral input on an analogue dial: it's always at a 'setting' somewhere from 1-100%. This is true for rotaries on our joysticks and true for trim dials on real planes. There is a central point - but it corresponds to a certain trim setting.

BenDover · « **Reply #24 on:** January 14, 2003, 05:04:54 PM »

50< positive trim
50% neutral
50> negative trim

Revvin · « **Reply #25 on:** January 14, 2003, 05:05:38 PM »

There is a centre point you're just moving it + or - up and down the axis so the central detent will give you no trim input where as leaving the rotary in any position up or down will give you a percentage of that movement. If you don't understand how it works or how it can work try downloading the IL-2 demo and see how they do it.

Tilt · « **Reply #26 on:** January 14, 2003, 05:06:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Yes and no.

If I would implement it, it would be implemented so that there was a rate limiter, so you couldn't spin from one end to the other.

2nd realize that this would require you to use only those trim wheels and have to set trim before every flight. When on auto pilot it would override the trim wheels but once you came off auto the plane would be slamed based on where your trim wheels where.

HiTech

Basically ....... heavily damped so the rate of trim change was equivalent to what a pilot could accomplish...........this seems very sensible.

If we choose auto then it is in auto the moment we change a trim setting on the rotary it moves to the new setting at a damped rate.

What rate of change does the auto combat trim functions run at now? they are not instant are they?

Griego · « **Reply #27 on:** January 14, 2003, 05:12:53 PM »

I use the wheel button in the wingman strike force 3d for elevator trim. It works for me.

As I turn the wheel foward or backward each click moves the elevator trim up or down one click.

DES · « **Reply #28 on:** January 14, 2003, 05:26:38 PM »

This is something I would really like to have. I think it would make trimming manually much more intuitive.

des

crowbaby · « **Reply #29 on:** January 14, 2003, 05:29:19 PM »

OK - i must be really dumb. My last attempt to explain myself and then i'll just shut up.

Rotary= full clockwise-----------centre----------full anticlockwise
Trim= full up-------------------------------------full down
AoA= high---------------------------------------low
Speed= low----------------------------------------high

Analogue rotary, sure it has a centre detent, similar to the 'trim neutral' setting on some planes, but that still represents an input, a certain trim setting and correspondingly, a certain speed. <> Surely the centre point gives the same amount of input as anywhere else? The rotary, wherever it is, determines the trim setting: hence HT's comments with regard to auto. So this doesn't make sense to me:
<> why try to go from the centre detent into and out of auto? why not trim as close as you can get first so that the 'jump' when you come out of auto is lessened?

And i still don't understand:
<> Why move the trim wheel back? why not leave it at the setting you require? isn't this the point of having analogue rotaries after all?

and this is not what i meant at all:
<>