Author Topic: How many here believe in evolution?  (Read 15625 times)

Offline Griego

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #150 on: December 02, 2002, 12:32:33 AM »
You get no argument from me that Theory of Evolution is way past Hypothesis.

 My reply was concerning Singularities. Not the Theory of Evolution.

 And what from I read we may be pass Hypothesis on singularities also.

Offline AKIron

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #151 on: December 02, 2002, 12:33:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Griego
Cajun it wasn't two things colliding together. The big bang theory as I understand happened from one singularity. Something so compact so small that all the gavitational force gave way and it exploded into the universe we know . A singularity like a Blackhole but much more condensed.

 Then there is the mutiple universe theory.

 I also believe that[ the idea of god ] god was created by man to explain the unexplainable.


I'm no physicist but it seems to me that the gravitational force generated by all the mass in the known universe wouldn't simply give way even to what must have been an unimaginable amount of energy. Rather, it seems to me there would have become an equilibrium. At least until some unaccounted for additional force were added to the mix.
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Offline senna

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #152 on: December 02, 2002, 12:35:38 AM »
Theory of evolution has NOTHING to do with singularities. You've been smoking too much crack Griego. If it does, please explain, show a theorum, some equation or proof?

Offline Sandman

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #153 on: December 02, 2002, 12:42:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Griego
You get no argument from me that Theory of Evolution is way past Hypothesis.

 My reply was concerning Singularities. Not the Theory of Evolution.

 And what from I read we may be pass Hypothesis on singularities also.


I'm probably way behind the curve, but how do you measure anything or collect evidence from beyond the event horizon?

Oh... and I'm going to repeat. Evolution is not theory. It is fact. Natural selection is theory.
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Offline Griego

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #154 on: December 02, 2002, 12:52:09 AM »
Not really sure since I'm no physicist.

 All I know is what I've read about it stating It was a singularity then bang the whole universe from a singularity.

 If it was a singularity then the gravitation forces must have been great. and for it to exploded and release all matter and energy to form a universe. Since matter and energy are the same only in different states.


 given that E=MCsquared. then S=(MCsquared/E)Gravitational force.

 S+Gravitational force = Explosion of all matter and energy
 Explosion of all matter and energy = universe :)
 
 Then S+Gravitational forces = Universe

 Universe= Evolution

 Universe+time=Evolution

 Evolution is because the Universe is made to evolve because it's in continues motion. Motion,time,matter and energy=primordial soup

 Primordial soup begining of man.

 Primordial soup= the molecules that formed into the enzymes and protiens that were form by the motion and energy as the universe cooled into the state that it is in.

 then out of this Primordial soup came man much later of course.

 :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 01:33:17 AM by Griego »

Offline senna

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #155 on: December 02, 2002, 12:53:16 AM »
String Theory deals with the abstraction of something from nothingness in terms of numbers and the chances of the occurance if at all in trying to represent the universe as we know it. Your analogy of that to faith and thus its argument to (real subject of comparison) evolution is rather a bad analogy. Since evolution is a byproduct of the universe to begin with. No universe = no evolutution. Yes universe not necesarily evolution. In our case we got universe and evolution and apes and men and people who do or do not believe in GOD. Not much "singularity" in that last sentence eh?

Offline cajun

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #156 on: December 02, 2002, 12:55:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Big bang actually.

And some scientists have come up with some good random existance math. The simplified version is the odds against existance are xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: 1 , after a certain period of 'time' sooner or later 'existance' will occur.

The question of who created god is no less important than the question of the universes existance in this whole argument. More often this question, when posed, leads to the creationist answer god simply exists, and answer which they quite often preclude as a possibility for the universe. IE, my god can simply exist but your universe cannot simply 'exist'. And highlights the fact that they draw use a different set of rules for whats valid as an argument for/against, and to me thats far from educated.

The other striking difference between the two communities (creationist and evolutionist) is in the answer to some of the bigger questions. In some cases the evolutionists will say "I don't know", or "we think this might have happened but we're not sure yet". Admiting they don't know is to me a far great act of faith than jumping to "its gods way". To me, a man who says "I don't know" is far more educated and enlightened.

Unfortunately the real root of the problem is, IMHO, the scale on which evolution, and the big bang theories for that matter, happen. The scale is beyond most human comprehension, the odds, timescale, and iterations involved are massive. The real issue when the argument boils down to its finer points of breaks down to the creationists not accepting scales that push their realms of thinking to the limits.

Evolution, and natural selection has been proven. Scientifically with fossils, and in current times with experiments on actively evolving animal populations (bacteria, birds, and monkeys). Those that deny it are just like those that clung to the 'earth is flat' or the 'sun revolves around the earth' ideas.


I never said that if god has allways existed that the universe couldnt have allways existed.   I should have worded it better, I knew someone would quote on me about that.

As for what you said about admitting you dont know, I agree with you 100% in that it is far more inteligent to admit you dont know something when you simply don't.
But I have not noticed any differance between Evelutionists and Creationists on this, if any I would think Evolutionists were more likely not to say "I don't know" but anyway..

The real root of the problem:
I agree with you on this as well, only I think the Idea of there being a god is allso a big issue, people tend to think of some fairy tail like king sitting up in the clouds and obeying your every request etc. :rolleyes:

Funny how history,archeology and geography are never brought up in this subject, only sceince, since there is so much proof of what the Bible speaks about in it.

I myself am disappointed at how some christians (especially those preeching) don't really know much about History, Archology, Geography & Sceince.
But I have listened to a few very smart people on these subjects, namely a preecher with a PHD who was talking about history,sceince etc. He made some very good points that I see in allot of churchs & people, most people go to church kind of to be entertained, more than to learn. it is funny some of the observations he made. Once he was schedueled to preach for 3 nights I forget where and the first 2 nights had really good points, and educating.  but he preached moreso as if he was teaching rather than preaching.  And people found him kind of boring.
So the 3rd night he decided to preach a totally meaningless message, but put every halijula,amen and scream and yell, the works.
And at the end everyone just thought it was so great.

Man I'm tired, half asleep. didnt plan on this being such a long post I doubt half of it turned out to make much sense. please forgive the 2000 typos and bad wording :)
*head falls on key board* zZzZzZzZzZz *snore* :D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 01:05:13 AM by cajun »

Offline Saurdaukar

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #157 on: December 02, 2002, 12:56:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cajun

what created the "big boom" (I mean I know 2 somethings are suppose to have collided, but what created them?)
 


Nothing "created" the Big (bang) "boom."  There was no collision.  The Big Bang Theory states that a sphere of almost infinate mass and infinate density expanded to create the universe.  The evidence in support of this theory is in the movement of the stars.  There is a measurable "center" of the universe from which all things move away.  This is supposedly where the expansion occured. (yes, its much more detailed than that, but its late)

The more iteresting issue is the equivilent of "Who created God?"  In other words - why did a small ball of "stuff" come together and explode?  There are two possibilities which hindge on which "end theory" you subscribe to.

End Theory 1:  The Big Crunch.  All of the matter in the universe moves away from a central point and from eachother.  As the distance from the center is increased, so is the speed of travel until a certain point.  Eventually, gravity will stop the expansion of the universe and begin to reverse its effect.  The result would slowly but surely pull the matter together - back into its sphere form.  Nearer to the end matter would accelerate to asounding velocities and all converge back into this ball... an unmeasureable amount of time later (trillianths and trillianths of a second), the sphere would reach its critical density and explode all over again, resulting in a second, third, fourth, etc Big Bang.  In theory, this process has gone on for quite some time (gross understatement) and will continue indefinately as a means of "renewing" the universe.

End Theory 2:  The Big Freeze (or Chill).  This theory states that all of the above regarding the Big Bang applies, but instead of the force of gravity being enough to halt and reverse the expansion of the universe, it proves too weak and the expansion not only continues, but speeds up continuously.    Eventually (matter) stars become so far apart from eachother (because remember, just as stars are moving away from a central point, they are also moving away from eachother - the farther the star is from the explosion, the faster it is currently moving AND accelerating) that you would not be able to see one star while stationed on a planet orbiting another star - the night sky would be completely black.  Eventually the distances would be so great the the "reproduction" of stars would prove extremely difficult and the universe would "freeze."  In practice, the Big Freeze Theory maintains that the initial expansion of he universe was a one shot deal and this is pretty much it - it aint happening again.

Recent discoveries (last 10 or so years) point to the Big Freeze as the more likely option because the expansion of the universe simply ISNT slowing down.  Either way, we're all gonna be dead - youve got a 50/50 chance between being incenerated and compacted or frozen and stretched.


In terms of tying this into evolution - just as different humans have different charectaristics - height, eye type, skin pigment, teeth, etc etc etc, the humans that result from one of these two end theories will be VASTLY different that we are.   We'll use just the eyes for our example.

If the Big Crunch holds true - human's will EVOLVE to combat the changing environment.  As the stars condense - light becomes more powerful - soon the night sky as dark is a distant memory.  Just as Asains have thicker eyelides to protect them from snow glare in the Northern climates (read: Inuit, etc) Humans in this environment - where stars LITERALLY cover the entire sky - will need to shield their eyes somehow.  If the brightness is so overbearing (and it will be) we will not be able to USE our eyes.  As a result - the eyes would fall victim to evolution and would eventually be erased as viable sensory organs.  We would have to abandon sight as our primary means of navigating life.

If the Big Freeze holds true, and stars continuously get further apart, our eyes will do just the opposite of above.  Since light will be diminished, we will EVEOLVE to counter this change in our enviroment.  Our eyes will become much more sensitive to light - perhaps bigger to capture more light - and withl different mechanics.  Once light is totally snuffed out however, everything changes once again.  Without ANY light to magnify, the eyes would fall victim to disuse just as they did in the previous theory and we would need to rely on another sensory perception to navigate the world.

Thankfully, while our eyes first attempt to cope with each change through better protection (eyelids) or increased light gathering ability (size) and then successively fall into disuse (burned out or unable to capture light that isnt there) other sensory organs will be picking up the slack at the same time.  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 01:06:42 AM by Saurdaukar »

Offline Sandman

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #158 on: December 02, 2002, 12:56:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Griego
Not really sure since I'm no physicist.

 All I know is what I've read about it stating It was a singularity then bang the whole universe from a singularity.


Okay... Einstein's theory also predicts the presence of a singularity, a point of zero volume and infinite density within a black hole. From here, the theory of gravity completely breaks down and you have to read that ninety pound head stuff from Hawking that makes my nose bleed. :)
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Offline Griego

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #159 on: December 02, 2002, 12:58:27 AM »
Then again Universes might be different in where one Universe explodes and expands and contracts and explodeds again and again.

 Other universes might just expand and never contract and yet others might expand and contract ina Heat death while others become so cold noone or anything for that matter exits at all. :)

Offline senna

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #160 on: December 02, 2002, 01:08:47 AM »
Yes string theory = billions and billions of little stars then evolution.

:)

Offline Saurdaukar

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #161 on: December 02, 2002, 01:10:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Griego
Then again Universes might be different in where one Universe explodes and expands and contracts and explodeds again and again.

 Other universes might just expand and never contract and yet others might expand and contract ina Heat death while others become so cold noone or anything for that matter exits at all. :)


Man, dont even get us started on multiple universes - youre opening a box you cant possibly hope to contain - and you can throw away the evolution part of the thread too.  ;)

Multiple dimensions... hyperspace... cross cube... no NO!!!!  MUST SLEEP!!!!!  You batsard!  :D

Offline Griego

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #162 on: December 02, 2002, 01:14:06 AM »
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Okay...Einestiens theory also predicts the presence of a singularity a point of zero volume and infinite densesity within a blackhole. From here the theory of Gravity completely brakes down

 
 Aren't you just proving my point.

 Theory of Gravity completely brakes down.

 Then the only assumption I can make is that when gravity brakes down in a singularity then there is an explosion that may lead into a universe being born. Or maybe I just assumed to much and just the Theory of Gravity brakes down not Gravity itself.

 Must read Hawking.


 Sorry Saudaukar. :)  I just like to listen to people smarter than myself on a subject that I find intriguing.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 01:19:47 AM by Griego »

Offline weazel

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So "God" is a monkey?
« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2002, 01:24:00 AM »
Does this mean spurious george is divine too?  :D


Quote
Originally posted by senna
I an an advocate of evolution (Im GOD believer also ya). We did evolve from the chimps to become more intelligent creatures due to evolution and biological change. Theres scientific fact though whats considered fact is a grey area in this thread.

Offline senna

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How many here believe in evolution?
« Reply #164 on: December 02, 2002, 01:34:15 AM »
Presented with that political propoganda, at my age Im at a lost for words yet sir. However I will say that I do like small chimps, they make great pets. I'd just feed them bannanas everyday and their happy. Milk and Banannas.

As for politics, shrug.

:D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 01:37:05 AM by senna »