Author Topic: Christians, doesn't it annoy you...  (Read 3736 times)

Offline BlckMgk

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2002, 02:13:59 PM »
MrFish hopefully their pain, allows you to see how life is without disease, and that you make the most of your health.

Then again its easy for me to say, not being there, and its easy for me to preach etc. I just give thanks I am well, I have a roof over my head, a computer at my finger tips and food in my belly. To be bitter with my current state would make me feel guilty. I am thankful for what I have and will work hard to continue to provide for those around me. To allow for my children to have a better life.


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Offline Vulcan

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2002, 02:43:13 PM »
Peace for one thing.

Atheism does not equal communism. You can be communist and christian for example.

But getting back to atheism... one of the largest religions in the world is atheist. It is also the most peaceful and forgiving religion. Its name has not been used to incite war, hatred, or massacres. In fact you cannot find violence associated with this religion bar one isolated group where the underlying violence is actually race related. Its worshippers also follow many sciences.

What has Christianity SPECIFICALLY contributed to the human race?



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Originally posted by ra
What has atheism contributed to the human race, other than communism?

Offline Kieran

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2002, 02:57:24 PM »
That's silly, Vulcan. Atheists don't share an identity in the way religions or ethnic groups do, therefore you won't find cases of atrocities committed in the cause of furthering atheism.

I suppose if I really wanted to throw lighter fluid on the fire I could suggest abortion was legalized by the actions of atheists, and it murders thousands every single year, yet that is not fair to atheists, now is it?

Offline beet1e

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2002, 03:16:53 PM »
Gentlemen, before this gets to one of those heated threads which has skuzzy coming along with his box of padlocks, can I suggest that we each live with our own beliefs and allow others to do the same - ie not challenge anyone in an attempt to assert that your belief is better than theirs. Speaking from first hand experience, I can say that this has kept the peace in my family for 30-40 years.

Mrfish -
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their god sucks.
Yeah, I know. Just let 'em get on with it. Just keep your silence at the appropriate moments. It takes practice, but it can be done. ;)

Offline StSanta

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2002, 06:51:13 PM »
Kieran, assuming you're right, that God only gives us challenges we can overcome, why should he get credit when we do overcome them?

I'm pretty sure your assumption isn't correct. There are loads of people who've been in situations way beyond anything they can cope with and died as a result. Of course you might answer that 'then that is the will of God'. It still means that they were in a situation they weren't capable of handling.

Lazs, I'm a non theist. I've experienced harships, dug in, and lived through. No spiritual assistance whatsoever, just a grim determination to try to change what I deemed was unacceptable. *I* did it.

Beet1e, I accept others have different beliefs than me. In fact, I try to *understand it, hence this post.

That comment about those hating religions starting lots of threads - see above. It was started to gain understanding, not spread hate. I am annoyed by evangelizing. I'm annoyed by ignorance and non critical thhinking and ideas that have been handed down from parent to child without being analyzed and just accepted as a fact - whether it is religious or not, it annoys me. I don't hate Christians, but it's no secret that my feelings towards organized religion is somewhat coloured by the fact that I know a tool of control when I see it. On the other hand, I don't have anything against individuals with faith. They're just an enigma to me.

Offline funkedup

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2002, 06:55:50 PM »
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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...

No.  :)

Offline miko2d

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2002, 10:26:38 PM »
Vulcan: It is also the most peaceful and forgiving religion. Its name has not been used to incite war, hatred, or massacres.

 Soviet Union, Red China?

 What has Christianity SPECIFICALLY contributed to the human race?

 One of the most brilliant atheists and foremost proponent of freedom - F. Hayeck would disagree with you. All human race owes to christianity is western civilisaton, concepts of equality, personal liberty, property, free market, etc. Not by design or intent, to be sure - but a cause nevertheless.
 It's not like Christianity was even created by a designer - we are talking about social evolution/selection and us a product of such evolution - we are here because the system promoted our spread and increase in wealth rather than some other population.

 Just because you cannot thion of something does not mean it's not there. Read "The Fatal Conceit" some day.

 miko, atheist.

Offline ra

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2002, 07:40:37 AM »
"Atheism does not equal communism."

No it doesn't, but that's not the point.  Atheism became a widespread philosophy during the 1800's.  Freed from the constraints of religion, atheist intellectuals decided to improve humanity.  Believing humanity to be infinitly malleable,  they came up with all kinds of wacko utopian ideas.  The one which left the most lasting scar on the human race was communism.  

"Peace for one thing."

The greatest slaughters of the 20th century were carried out by followers of atheist ideologies.

I still don't see where atheism has contributed significantly to the betterment of humanity.  It promises new realms of intellectual exploration, but all it delivers is social 'science' and moral relativism.

ra

Offline fffreeze220

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2002, 08:00:27 AM »
Religion causing wars and let hate grow.
I believe in nothing then myself and that should be the way to go.
Freeze

Offline lazs2

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2002, 08:12:44 AM »
santa... I used to think that "I" did it all... there was nothing that the great "I" could not conquer.... "I" was a tough guy and smarter than the spiritual pissants.    I am relieved that I finally got over that crap.   No big deal really...  You still need to do the work.   Sometimes we all just need a little help.   Mr fish... What would you do in their situation?   Is your solution any better?   Is it weaker or stronger to give up?   Would you feel better with a god to blame or worse?
lazs

Offline Kieran

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2002, 08:18:52 AM »
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I'm pretty sure your assumption isn't correct. There are loads of people who've been in situations way beyond anything they can cope with and died as a result. Of course you might answer that 'then that is the will of God'. It still means that they were in a situation they weren't capable of handling.


My point is you knew the answer a Christian would have to give because you were raised in the church... hence, I assume you already knew this information.

If God puts you in a situation where you struggle, you do have the responsibility to try to overcome, but you are also supposed to have faith in God regardless. The outcome of faith isn't that you'll always be healed, or that there will always be a happy ending (on earth). Don't ever forget a Christian is supposed to set his/her eyes on a higher prize, and forsake the world and its tempations for faith. Sometimes, however, your personal suffering has a ripple effect, and your actions through that crisis can be a catalyst for growth in faith for those around you.

My father was alcoholic, my step-father alcoholic and abusive. Life growing up was... interesting. In the fullness of time I grew up and later met my birth father again- some 22 years after he had abandoned my family. We struggled when he left (he left four kids and two of my aunts and uncles my orphaned mother was trying to raise), and there often wasn't much food to be had. I watched my mother refuse any welfare, and refused to allow her brothers and sisters be taken from her and placed in foster homes. She made it, one day at a time.

Anyway... when I met "dad" again, I had every right to hate him. What I'd personally gone through as a result of his abandonment could have made me very bitter and yet... it didn't. I knew it had all happened for a reason. By watching my mother, I learned how to persevere and not look for the easy way out. I learned about sacrifice for your family- real sacrifice. Unfortunately I also learned about abusive step-parents, but even that has application in my life today. I deal with kids all the time that have abusive situations, and I can very much relate to what they are going through.

And there's more. Birth dad and I met several times in the following years, and he went to his grave expressing regret for what he had done. He didn't blame my mother once for anything, though it would have been easy to do so. Dad had found another wife later in his life and came to know God. He quit drinking, turned his life around, and began reaching out to others in need in his community. What I learned from him was you cannot turn away from your responsibilities, regardless of the immediate cost- the long-term cost is much higher.

Step-dad, as it turned out, had a medical reason for his temper- extremely high blood pressure. Once he began to take medicine to control the blood pressure, he became quite normal. He remained an atheist to the end, but he was human and normal and a loving father and husband, and I mourned his passing. What did I learn from him? He was the most consistant man I ever met, and true to himself. He didn't make apologies for what he was. Believe it or not, I learned how to discipline (and how not to) from him.

So... how do I feel about my whole childhood? Thankful to God. I am what I am today because of the experience, and though not all of it was pleasant (or unpleasant), it was all necessary. I can see looking back how intricately it has all been woven together, I see the plan. I can thank God for the good and the bad in it. Nothing was by chance.

Offline dfl8rms

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2002, 10:23:56 AM »
First of all, I do consider myself a follower of Jesus and as such, I realize that I am very narrow minded.  As a Christian, I believe that there is only one way to heaven.  

John 14
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I also believe that God is sovereign and God is a triune God.  He causes / allows events to happen that we as mere humans cannot comprehend.  As a sovereign God, He can choose to do what He wills.  So if trials or tribulations beset us, we are to rejoice in the fact that we are being tested.  If we loose our life, we count it gain because we are with God.  If we are maimed or changed physically, we count it gain to be persecuted with Christ.  As for overcoming trials and tribulation, I believe that God enables us.  God is our strength as it says in

Psalms 46
1 God is our refuge and strength,
        A very present help in trouble

So short answer to the original post is NO.

Offline mrfish

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2002, 11:07:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Mr fish... What would you do in their situation?   Is your solution any better?   Is it weaker or stronger to give up?   Would you feel better with a god to blame or worse?
lazs


i don't offer any solutions or suggest giving up, nor do i blame anything but nature for their conditions.

everytime i go back to the great dismal prairie land in the middle of our country i see all these people with miserable lives sitting around clutching their hands and gazing skyward waiting for a break..... my anger comes from two sources-

1st, i hear people say stuff like "gee ms turner, i guess god let little jimmy get his legs burned off to show us all how wonderful having legs is! praise god! i know he has a good reason somewhere!" golly, that god guy is quite a teacher......i'm pretty sick of being embarrassed at the fact that my 'people' worship a god who is a poor mentor, an awful teacher and a very bad planner. it never even occurs to them because they are so wrapped up in the lifestyle they refuse to be analytical about what they actually believe...

2nd, if there is a god, he is pretty crappy to the people who sacrifice the most to him and keep his name on their toungues at all moments regardless of what comes in life. why does he reward them with pain?-on this point, i guess i shouldn't be surprised though, considering that god ignores gentiles for about 3/4 of the bible or paints them as inferior to his precious chosen ones.....

    Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and  Sidon. A Canaanite (Gentile) woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”
     Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
     He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
     The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
     He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”
     “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”
     Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Matthew 15:21-28


wow! it sure was nice of jesus to take pity on us dogs in the end! maybe if we all beg on our knees like that gentile hag we can sweep up in heaven when we die! god might even let us use the same water fountains....

how all those good, simple, hearty people across the heartland got sucked into this vengeful petty desert god's religion continues to astound me. I think they deserve better is all and it remains a sore spot for me.

Offline StSanta

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2002, 12:48:23 PM »
About 'atheism contributions'

This is a completely ridiculous way of putting it.

Atheism is absence of theism. It is NOTHING ELSE. It's not some doctrine. There ain't rules. There ain't a political agenda.

Atheists are very diverse with only ONE thing really connecting them - lack of belief in a deity or deities.

So please, these 'commies were atheists' is just as stupid as saying 'men without hair are commies'.

'Atheist' spans a very wide range of people, including *religious* people who just don't happen to believe in a God or gods. So it's utterly stupid to suggest that a lack of something as faith in a deity has a political agenda. Usually, there are people with agendas that happen to be atheists. it's not atheism itself that drives them. Stalin saw the church as a threat to his authority - he cracked down on 'em not because of atheism, but because he wanted absolute unquestionable control.

Around 2% of atheists are strong atheists - that is, they believe (have faith in) that God does NOT exist. The rest simply lack a belief in a god - or not in one. It's simply irrelevant.

It should also be said that ALL the values 'Christianity' purposedly brought to western civilizations have been in place in various cultures before Christianity itself. 'Be kind to others' isn't new, nor is 'don't kill people for fun'. It's been an influnce, but both for good and bad, and it's worth remembering that.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2002, 12:54:51 PM by StSanta »

Offline ra

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2002, 01:05:14 PM »
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Around 2% of atheists are strong atheists - that is, they believe (have faith in) that God does NOT exist.

Then the other 98% of atheists are not atheists.