Author Topic: Christians, doesn't it annoy you...  (Read 3735 times)

Offline beet1e

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2002, 01:09:24 PM »
St.Santa - quite correct. It would be a bit like saying that bald is a hair colour.

Maybe it is God's will that I am an atheist.

Offline BNM

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2002, 01:19:14 PM »
Amen Kieran and dfl8rms. Only thing I'd add is that some seem to confuse religion with faith or belief. They are two different things. I was raised a Baptist, I occasionally attend a AOG Church but I don't consider myself "religious". I believe Jesus is the only way to the Father. I believe that if you don't accept Jesus as YOUR Savior you will burn in hell for eternity. That would truly be a shame, a horror no one on earth can imagine. When you look up and see me standing in the loving arms of Jesus, shaking my head, you'll realize you made the wrong choice. Don't wait too late. You have heard the gospel and will make a choice before your time expires on this earth to accept or reject Him. The choice is yours, given to you by God. I pray for all the lost souls posting in this forum. Read the original KJV and then decide. God bless.

Offline WineMan

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2002, 01:19:33 PM »
Just a quick FYI I read in the newspaper the other day:

A poll was taken, asking if religion played a very important role in the person's everyday life.  The number of respondants who answered "yes" were as follows:

USA - 59%
Europe - around 30-35%
Central and South America - 80-85%
Indonesia, malaysia - 90-95%

Offline StSanta

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2002, 01:25:53 PM »
ra, yes they are.

It's a common misconception. There are two forms of atheism (popularly speaking).

Strong atheists say that there definitely isn't a God. They do not have proof of this (it's quite hard to get this evidene, try proving that there aren't green midgets dancing inside a giant copy of Playboy on the left invisible sun in the Pleiades), but they take it on as a matter of faith, or try to disprove all notions of God/gods humans have invented so far. This is a small, but vocal, minority.

Weak atheists lack a belief either way. Saying lack of belief is a religion is, as beet1e says, like saying bald is a hair colour. Saying lack of belief in deities or deity isn't atheism is akin to saying total absence of hair isn't equal to a bald head.

Me, I'm the latter kind. I don't even know what a God thing is. No one has ever been able to explain what it is, its characteristics and traits, different states and so forth. Talking about something that is not definable is quite silly. Lots of good will come from a discussion about Sqweeerwookles. Whatever that is. Which I won't define. But I'll affirm that it is.

If you want I can provide some links that more indepth describe the various forms of non theism. Will have to go ghrough my rather extensive bookmarks though.

Offline ra

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2002, 01:45:38 PM »
Quote
Weak atheists lack a belief either way.

You are making this up.  An atheist believes there is no God.  An agnostic better fits your description.

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2002, 02:16:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BNM
I believe that if you don't accept Jesus as YOUR Savior you will burn in hell for eternity.


and you probably feel the punishment fits the crime too....or are you too scared of the flame to wonder?

Offline Vulcan

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2002, 03:35:07 PM »
Ahh the bliss of Christian ignorance.

First of all, I was referring to Buddhism.

Ra this is perhaps the most ignorant statement: "No it doesn't, but that's not the point. Atheism became a widespread philosophy during the 1800's. Freed from the constraints of religion, atheist intellectuals decided to improve humanity. Believing humanity to be infinitly malleable, they came up with all kinds of wacko utopian ideas. The one which left the most lasting scar on the human race was communism."

No one ever taught me how to be an atheist. I am of my own free will, choice, and thought. Atheism has been around for a long long time, its just in the past if you were an atheist and the local christian mob found out... well you get the idea.

And once again, Communism does not equal atheism. If you believe this then you are thinking right inside the cliche square.

As I said, one of the largest religions in the world is Atheist. It is also the most open, peaceful, and forgiving religion...

Offline ra

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« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2002, 04:44:06 PM »
Vulcan, I never said being atheist meant being communist, read more carefully.  And I never asked how you became athiest.

ra

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2002, 05:34:26 PM »
It seems to me that faith is not a choice at all. You either believe or you do not. IMHO, all but the strongest of the faithful avoid anything that my cause them to question their faith or doubt the existence of god. They guard their belief very carefully.

It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.

I grew up Baptist. I know the story. I know the rituals. I understand the symbolism.

Get this straight... Witnessing isn't about going door to door peddling your beliefs like they were tupperware or walking up and down the boulevard with the latest copy of the Watchtower clutched to your chest. It means being an enviable example of your faith. It means being a good person. It means being a happy person. It means being a helpful person. People should look at you and wonder what is missing from their own lives. That is what a witness is.
sand

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2002, 08:36:24 PM »
Quote
It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.


Hence my original comment in the thread. Most of these threads here are started by professed nonbelievers that don't want anyone talking to them about religion. I ask, why is that?

Offline Airhead

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2002, 09:14:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It seems to me that faith is not a choice at all. You either believe or you do not. IMHO, all but the strongest of the faithful avoid anything that my cause them to question their faith or doubt the existence of god. They guard their belief very carefully.

It's a waste of time trying to convert anyone one way or the other. I don't waste my time telling christians that there is no god. I just wish that they would give me the same courtesy.





Exactly Sandman, which is why we are discussing this on a bulletin board instead of over a joint, or beers, or shots, or whatever. If you and I met personally we wouldn't talk about issues like this, we'd talk about stuff that makes us laugh. Really, I know more about the political beliefs, or religious beliefs, or moral beliefs of some of the posters here than I know about some of my friends.

"The strongest of the faithful" are the ones that praise God and witness before you- by all means, as is prophesized they will be ridiculed and mocked and made light of by non believers. I read about St. Santa talking about his "annoyance" with religion peddlers, but really, I get more solicitations from mortgage brokers than religious advocates. LOL I think it's funny now that St. Santa is trying to classify the amount of anti-religious fervor the way extremist Moslems classify religious fervor.

Hey, Agnostics- STRONG Athiests- MODERATE Athiests- however you non believers wish to classify yourselves as on the religious spectrum- If you don't believe then why do you keep starting these threads?

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2002, 09:14:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It means being a good person. It means being a happy person. It means being a helpful person. People should look at you and wonder what is missing from their own lives. That is what a witness is.


Very well said Sandman

That's how I feel, but you said it much, much better than I could.

I'm Catholic...altar boy (dodged that whole priest thing..whew), Catholic school (complete with Nuns, who all wore the old black and white habit, and the proverbial rulers).

I still attend Mass on Sundays and raise my children in the church.

But I don't push it.....just saying it here to put context around my thoughts on Sandman's words I quoted.

In fact, in the school district I live in, I send my kids to public school because the system is really good.  And I want to support it.  I support the Church by being a parishoner.  As with all things in life, I don't agree 100% with establishment that is the Church, but I also belong for my own reasons......which is what it's about.........personal reasons.

Cobra

Offline Sandman

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2002, 12:54:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Hence my original comment in the thread. Most of these threads here are started by professed nonbelievers that don't want anyone talking to them about religion. I ask, why is that?


An unrelenting desire to argue I guess...

I could be wrong. I don't start threads like these anymore. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2002, 12:59:15 AM by Sandman »
sand

Offline StSanta

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2002, 04:51:10 AM »
Ra. believe me I am NOT. I'm an operator on undernet #atheism and #philosophy.

Try this page for an intro into atheism:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html

I'll quote:
"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as "strong atheism".

Regarding people who have never been exposed to the concept of 'god': Whether they are 'atheists' or not is a matter of debate. Since you're unlikely to meet anyone who has never encountered religion, it's not a very important debate...

It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". There is a qualitative difference in the "strong" and "weak" positions; it's not just a matter of degree."

end quote.


Agnosticism isn't really related to atheism or theism - or rather, an agnostic can be a theist, or he can be a non theist. Agnosticism is a statement: I do not believe we can know whether God(s) exist or not. As such, agnostics can be both religious and non religious. You, like most, have a wrong definition of the word.

Agnostic \Ag*nos"tic\, n.
One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any
knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism,
neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc.

Of course widespread misuse of the word the the late 20th century has meant to to most it is synonymous with 'doubter'.


Here's another quote, from the same intro:

"The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for sure whether God exists.

Since that time, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those that do not believe that the question is intrinsically unknowable, but instead believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.

To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on the original definition be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the second definition be qualified as "empirical agnosticism".

Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism".

Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe."

end quote.

Hope this helps. And Ra, chill out. No need to be so aggressive. :)

Offline StSanta

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2002, 04:57:27 AM »
Oh I started this thread to getr some answers. Then someone (Kieran methinks) made a comment that I found to be erroneous (non theist startiong threads they hate). I went on to explain the purpose of the thread. Then a bunch of others hijacked it. Don't blame me. Once hijacked, I go wherever the hijacker point the plane til I can find a big piece of metal to bash his skull in with.

When erroneous remarks are made, like the ones on weak/strong atheism and agonsticism or the original one, I feel compelled to answer them. Otherwise people might think I'm in agreement with them (the erroneous remarks).

Now, could I get an answer to my original question, as well as the followup? Am trying to understand here. There was no anti-religious intent with my post. Heh, me not liking organized religions but liking followers is sort of like you Christians not liking sin, but being able to like the sinner. So it shouldn't be contrued as an inflaming remark, and if it was perceived as such, I apologize.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2002, 05:00:33 AM by StSanta »