To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots

[Exile]

Well, after reading this thread yall can be damn sure the ROE for The Ladder will see some definite re-writing ... especially for the 2 on 2 and 4 on 4.

Nice films btw, looked like a fun fight regardless of the ROE squabble.

[Hangtime]

RAM..

Yer welcome.

I get bent once.. ONCE and stand up and holler when I see 10 of my guys get trashed inna rigged fight...

..and YOU wax sanctimonious horscrap in my direction.

Sheesh. Glad you had a ball. I'll send yah my Barbie collection to play with next time.

You ever see me hop in yer pile when yer backin up what you think is right?

Unreal. I agree.. this is way outta hand. My fault entirely. I should know better than to stand up and holler "Foul!"

Save me yer 'dissapointment'.. I don't give a rats ass.

Hang

[Kieren]

Ok, to verify Toad's comments:

Yes, we confirmed 11 LW. This was broadcast both in private to us (so we could confirm that number ourselves) and on the open channel. I can review my tape and verify *I think*. I remember the conversation well, and am 99% sure Toad said it both on open and private.

51's upped with 12 pilots. I closed the field and moved to the next base to watch the merge. One of the 51 pilots noted there were fewer LW, to which Hangtime replied "if they augered on takeoff, that is their problem". I was not a referee- I was there to be sure the arena ran the way it should. I reported my numbers, compared that with Toad's and the cons I visually verified myself. We were wondering what to do, but the consensus was to wait and see if the 51's pulled two out- which they did. However there was absolutely no way for us on the ground to see this from where we were (A14).

Would I do it the same way again? Absolutely. Toad and I could have pressed the issue, but that wasn't why we were there. We were there to look for latecomers jumping into the fray. We wanted to be sure you all launched before I closed the fields. We wanted to set the environment so you could run your show.

There were refs there, they had the same information we had. You CO's from opposing sides can count. The information we had was taken from the same buffer you all read. The fight was 10 vs. 10 when Nash said "locked". I personally then informed two more pilots they would have to wait until next time.

The fact is, it was screwed up from the start. Both sides let too many people up after they had agreed on a number, there is no denying it. Whatever transpires after that point in time is moot. No one won, no one lost. Move on, play it over or forget it.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
RAM..

Yer welcome.

I get bent once.. ONCE and stand up and holler when I see 10 of my guys get trashed inna rigged fight...

..and YOU wax sanctimonious horscrap in my direction.

Sheesh. Glad you had a ball. I'll send yah my Barbie collection to play with next time.

You ever see me hop in yer pile when yer backin up what you think is right?

Unreal. I agree.. this is way outta hand. My fault entirely. I should know better than to stand up and holler "Foul!"

Save me yer 'dissapointment'.. I don't give a rats ass.

Hang

I should not feel like I do when I read things like the one I just read from you.

Oh damn, screw it, get lost hang. If you dont give a rats bellybutton I dont know why do I have to care about it.

The sad thing is -I do-

Re-read ALL my posts and find out where do I "wax sanctimonious horscrap in your direction.". Maybe you'll find that I tried to save your face when I thought you were having a hot head bad moment.

But as I said screw it. as you said you dont mind what I say or do.

But remember this, sometimes when the hole world is wrong and you are right there are a lot of things to think about...especially your perception on "wrong" and "right"

Maybe you dont care about what do I think. But if you knew how did I felt when I read that then you'd change mind.

Oh well I'll play with your barbies instead. Maybe I am a stupid idiot who trustes the wrong people, who knows. So maybe I'd be better playing with barbies than feeling like i do now.

But why the hell do I post this here?...

Bah!....

[mx22]

My 2c on this topic,

I didn't take part in that fight (and dont really care about the result of it either), but was online when Hristo came in and started to brag about how good LW is. The only thing I can say, it was the cheesiest and cheapest thing I have ever seen. I think from now on I'll take pride in not being part of LW outfit.

Regards,

mx22

[Nash]

Kieren - yah, everything u stated I watched take place. There was also another discussion within' the reffs about this (me, math, verm, Az, etc.) The number we could verify was that there were 11v11. Now, it gets confusing because at some point there was 11v12(allies), though 2 allies rtb'd.. The 11 might have been witnessed in the middle of that.

When the number imbalance (ie 12 allied) was brought to Hang's attention via Vladd..er well heres the breakdown:

Vladd reports "12 ponies launched?" on allied country channel.

I minute later Kieren asks if all allied up. Hang replies "rgr".

Another minute later, Vladd tells Hang "I think the LW may only have 10 up"

Hang: "Vladd - if they lost 2 on crashes at tak-off, too bad"

Minute later, Vladd: "I think hristo may have called they would only go with 10"

I confirmed yes, the final numbers Hristo and Hang agreed to was 10v10.

<inter squad communication takes place>

8 minutes after Vladd points out the allied number discrepency, ammo and vladd report "~close to merge, vis dots".

Nme dots now in vis range.

Half a minute later Hang and CJ reverse, diving away from merge. Hangtime reports ~"CJ and I are rtb - Cita u have lead." This on *squad* channel

Half a minute later, initial 51s and 190's merge. Mathman calls FIGHT ON.

10 seconds after that, the rear pony makes it to the merge area.

15 seconds after that, the rear FW makes it to the merge area.

Hang - despite your... ah nevermind. Ya'll draw yer own conclusions about how poorly the 51's got slighted.

[typhoonc]

Yep.  There was a point after the merge when it was possible to see Hang's 51 heading back to base, so this might have made it look like 11 allies.  I was already on the ground at that point.  This was taken from badger's tapes.  Anyone who wants badger's tapes, im sure he'd send them to you via email.  Also from them i also counted 11 190's.  Woulda been a great fight, but oh well.. these things happen.  Can't wait for the re-match    Hopefully it's 12 vs 12 that time.  

CJ  99th Raging Rooks and 1st Allied Combined

[Hangtime]

Nash..

Yer right.. I'm outta line. I blew it.. shoulda called for a busted merge and a restart what with the pilot count confusion and the two group merge developing. An ROE brief among the refs at that point would ahve cleared it up before it turned into a goat rope. Sorry man...  

All of you guys; Kieren; Math, Toad, Az, Cavey.. thanks for tryin to help.. and I'm sorry fer my diatribes. Made my first post before watchin the films and Hristo's gloat sent me over the edge after watchin those boys get chopped up like that. My fault.. so sorry.

Anyhow.. hope u guys get a refly scheduled with Toads ROE. That looks like it'll work just dandy. Tho I think you may have some tuff road to cover gettin hristo to go for it.. prepare fer the paris peace talks all over again.  

Citabria; Thunder; Ammo; PC; CJ; Wilbus; Skyman; Maniac; Camel; Jigster... thanks men. yah done good.

Salute 1st/AH Allied !

Hang

[Toad]

Hey, it was FUBAR. Pretty normal for a dress rehersal.

This was the FIRST one. Don't give up on the concept...although maybe this "I got the biggest johnson" stuff oughta go into a drawer for a while.

I would still like to see some 8 v 8 or 12 v 12  (Multiples of Flights (sections for you Navy pukes) of 4.

Still think these rumbles could be fun.
Let's do some ROE work from what we've learned and maybe try something less charged with machismo.  Maybe VVS/LW or IJN/USN or USAAF, RAF/LW.

[Hristo]

Let me make one thing clear here:

I was never aware we had 11 planes instead of 10, until I watched the film after the fight.

If I found out about MooseEAF being 11th and not 10th, I guarentee you I would told Udie to kick him out.

If that wouldn't work I would announce it to Nash and referees and cancel the flight.

To all you guys blaming me I knew about MooseEAF being 11th man, you are the ones to be called lower than cat scum.

You know that I would not let that happen. However, by stating otherwise you show your lack of dignity.

If you really think Luftwaffe won because of MooseEAF flying for them, go on. I have nothing more to add here, you know that that wasn't the reason.


This can be confirmed by reading our comunications during the flight.

- I check icons on both groups

- icons in forward group were very close and over each other - no way to make an accurate count of planes (counting dots at that range ? hmmm)

- still, I notice MooseEAF icon

- not remembering I invited him to squad, I tell him that he is not part of our squad

- then I look at roster and what I see ? MooseEAF IS part of our squad, with same squad name and flying in our formation

- still confused, I type "oops, sorry" to MooseEAF

- now I get confused to the point I really wasn't sure if I invited him or not; blame it on anything you want, but I really did not know it at that point

- Udie offered me to kick him out

- I replied NO, because I was still under impression he was the 10th man, not 11th (therefore response "we need him to even the numbers")

- the rest of my channel 4 comments confirm this: I was actually pissed to have MooseEAF as 10th man, assuming it would be just 1 dead 190 once the fight starts

Now, why would I risk such thig of losing this fight just by having 11th man ? And that man being a total nwbie, not helping us at all ?

Do you really think I planned to win this fight by bringing in a total newbie (MooseEAF), guy I never heard of before ?

Sorry, but blaming me that I deliberately busted RoE with this 11th man is dirty.


You better ask yourself of the unbelieveable coincidence. A newbie who makes his own squad with exact name as our, flying close inside our formation, but failing to achieve nothing in te fight but dying among the first. Conspiracy ?


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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Maniac]

Do you all really have an life besides AH?

All i can say is that i sucked in the duel...

I got completly confused by the 2 groups of FWs and did not know if i should go after the first group wich was low, or the rear group that was high.

I am sure the results will look different in the next duel so dont gloat to much luftwobblies...

 


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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-


   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[Hristo]

mx22, after reading against who we actually flew, all I can say I am sorry I did not brag even more. It was ment as teasing the ever so loud Allied contingent, after a fair fight. But now it is much more. We beat someone much more dangerous there.

From RoE wars, sneaky tricks like merge diving, spying, ack hugging and even possible sabotage, some P 51 types proved their known reputation.

Luftwaffe pilots, you have done incredibly well.


Live and learn, as Citabria said.


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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Duckwing6]

Oh and for the refight i vote Hangtime as a Referee as he's so easily bashing awasy on the Referees ..

Man you have no idea on how hard that jobs is.

maybe you want to get some hands on experience...

[Maniac]

"From RoE wars, sneaky tricks like merge diving, spying, ack hugging and even possible sabotage, some P 51 types proved their known reputation."

Hristo, where u molested as an child by an P51D pilot or something?



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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-


   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[maik]

MAN, too bad that i missed this  .

But Folks please calm down, this is jst a Game. c'mon let's all be friends together  .

Maik
<JG54 Grünherz>