Author Topic: To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots  (Read 3292 times)

Offline Pongo

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2000, 08:23:00 AM »
Congrats LW pilots. Hard to tell but sounds like you handed it to them.
These ROE things sound like hearding cats.

Offline Hristo

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2000, 08:27:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dingy:
Actually Hristo, it is the LW contingent I hear braggin the most in the MA and you are one of the loudest.

And I a damn proud of it. Sorry if we don't agree on that.

Quote
If there ever was a poor winner, you were displaying it yesterday.  [/b]

Just a part of the fight. However, I can say it was ment as a joke. But now I don't care how they took it. Let them know they lost.

Quote
And its poor taste to criticize MooseEAF's ability in a public forum like this.  He may not have as much of an effect on the final outcome as you state but there is no way for an ally to know which 190 is being manned by whom...each enemy plane is a potential threat.
[/b]

It is a poor taste. Almost as close as blaming the same guy for the outcome.

This was my mistake. How much though, I am not sure now. Who knows who the guy actually was. P 51 types are sneaky, you know. They tend to accuse opposition of taking up with 12 planes while they took off with 12 themselves. MooseEAF ? I really don't know now.

Quote
As far as Maniac's comment that he was confused by two groups, I can understand that.  
[/b]


We all can. It was ment to function that way.


Thanks for participating Dingy, glad to had you fly with us.


Luftwaffe types, brag on. You deserved it.


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Offline Torque

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2000, 08:32:00 AM »
Hristo ten 190 pilots and ten 51 pilots don't represent the whole LW and Allied airforces out of 1000+ ppl. This was one small engagement between Americans and Germanys (Finns too!!) squads. Lets not talk about running either I have a nice film clip of you running from my hog when you had alt advantage only to be out maneuvered by my Hog and then shot down when you tried to run again. Try to show some character and don't gloat as such so much,  did you ever think that this may be the main reason so many JG ppl have defected to other squads lately. The 190 squad did well and they should be <S> for that but there will be many more squad duels in the future. Your just making AH ugly and political. Ah is for fun and entertainment lets keep it that way please.

Offline RAM

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2000, 08:53:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Torque:
did you ever think that this may be the main reason so many JG ppl have defected to other squads lately.

You surely are talking about JG2. I left for a "personal" thing with one of my exsquaddies and when I saw that the reaction that his action had into JG2 was not the one I expected. I wont tell further than that.

AFAIK Rip lefr JG2 because he wanted to make a dream come true, to be a VMF squad CO. Saw followed him because he loved P51 over LW iron, and Bee followed Saw because they are like lovers   where one goes there goes the other     (J/K <S!> both)

The rest of the people fleeing JG2 either went to JG54 under Hristo's Command, Rip's squad, or other's . Many of them used to fly in Spitfires, hogs and P51s anyway, so there was a time when JG2 was only LW in the name, because only the people now in JG54, me,Jochen,Swager and a couple of people more were flying german iron.

When I left JG2 I expected some kind of "revolution" happening sooner or later. BUt for sure not that drastic.

Anyway this post was intended to make clear that,AFAIK, the reasons for JG2's breaking out in many squads including itself, have nothing to do with this matter.

At least is what I think after I've talked with a lot of ex-JG2 people last weeks.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-24-2000).]

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2000, 09:23:00 AM »
Moose of the European Air Force is one of my longest time online-sim friends from EAW.  I can guarantee he was not part of any "conspiracy".  

While we logged into the SEA, MooseEAF was a member of his own squad. I told him to disband it and contact you, Hristo, to get invited.  In between all the fuzz he must have misunderstood and formed his one man Luftwaffe.  I'm sorry that it happened.  

While Moose hasn't been flying AH for very long, I will fly on his wing any time.

Like it has been said here many times, this duel was first of a kind in AH, but hopefully not the last.  I'm sure we'll be wiser when the next duel is played and these kinds of clear errors can be avoided.

I'll be happy to take part in the next duel!

Salute to all the pilots who attended, and especially to the arranging parties!

<S!>

Camo

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Offline Badger

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2000, 09:59:00 AM »
Well, I debated somewhat with myself as to whether to post to this sad thread or not, but in the end decided since I was one of the participants flying for hangtime's 51 squad,  I had more right than some here who have poured gasoline on the funeral pyre.

I had no idea that this event was going to be filled with so much animosity or expectation that the survival of humanity would depend upon its outcome.  Besides being somewhere past 50, I have a very stressful day job and I enjoy WB, AH and hopefully WWIIOL for purely the game entertainment value and community camaraderie, they have usually offered me in the past for general relaxation.

I logged onto the SEA on Sunday without any pre-knowledge of this intense rivalry and debate between the two factions, as I try to avoid those kind of BBS threads.  I simply thought it was a regular fun type event and naively asked if there were any openings for a walk-on.  Hangtime kindly spoke up and asked if I could fly a 51 and I jokingly replied I'd fly a Cessna if he wanted me to.  Ironically, I'm usually an LW guy in scenarios or events as a member of vadr's III/JG2 on AH, as well as his JG2 squad (previously JG27) on WB.  Heck, after accepting hangtime's invitation, I even offered to switch to 190's if it appeared there would be a balance problem, as it was simply about having fun for me with a great bunch of comrades and not proving who's better.  By the way hangtime, thank you very much for permitting me to join with no prior event preparation, practice, event briefings or a chance to learn the ad hoc squad members.  I had no idea there was as much competitive rivalry at stake, so it was very gracious of you to allow this mediocre old 190 warrior with minimal time on type, to participate and take up a valuable P51 slot that could have been filled by a more experienced squad affiliated P51 driver.  <Salute>

From my point of view, this event was "pooched" before the merge.  We took off sequentially to avoid FPS problems with everyone on the runway, which consumed a lot of time.  Hangtime, with so much else to organize and contend with, inadvertently took off with 25% fuel and no external tanks.  We ended up circling and debating some of this issue for a bit, which was distracting.  It then appeared the numbers looked off in favor of the allies, so Hangtime and CJ (my wingman) did a 180 and in real time, turned command over to citabria while they exited the formation leaving me to try and find "thunder", my newly assigned wingy.  You know something people, hangtime could of asked a P51 "rookie" like me to RTB and stayed in the action himself, but he didn't.  Again, very gracious so as to not disappoint my enjoyment of the event.

I'm now looking around for "thunder" and once found, start a turn back to him, only to discover the LW full tilt in-bound on us at full E with maximum speed.  I then turned into them at very low speed and very low E, only to discover I was actually a bit too high on the 15k boundary.  I started to drop down 800-1200 feet when it is very clear that many of the 190's were actually above me and we haven't even completely merged all the way though yet.  So, I simply flew straight through the higher and lower 190's with guns cold and come upon the last two trailers who were in a climb up and away from me after a 51 ( jigster I think).  I went up into a high Yo Yo (right) on the 4 clock of one of them when I noticed his 190 wingman abandon him, choosing to continue to climb out by himself, as my target broke into somewhat of a split-s maneuver and headed for the deck.  Since he was alone, as was I (lost my wingy thunder...never really got onto his wing in first place), we ended up with a one on one engagement diving and twisting.  I chased him alone downward 1vs1 towards the deck where I got a fortunate six shot kill.  I then began a long time consuming climb back to fighting altitude and worked my way back to the general mass of 190's and P51's.  I should have used more time to get to proper altitude, but I noticed that my fellow P51 drivers were taking a beating, so I chose to dive into the furball at equal or slightly lower altitude.  As a result, I ended up with a few too many 190's on my six and got real slow, low and in a dirty flight configuration.  After watching hristo's film (the 190 who nailed me....<Salute> ) and seeing his stay high out of the fray style while watching for weaker low targets of opportunity, to then swoop in at very high speed, I now better understand how I died.  It was really interesting to see one's own death from the attacker's camera film and notice the effects of Internet lag and range differences as perceived by individual front ends.  When I saw him diving into me from the rear, I was sure I was able to turn easily and avoid his snapshot, but when I see my camera film then look at his film of the same shot, it looked from his viewpoint that I had virtually turned in front of him.  The high speed pass like this with all kinds of E creates a strange Internet effect on distances and views and is a good point that trainers need to teach the younger players about, in learning how to read, understand and plan for that eventuality.

Bottom line, IMHO the 51's never really got into a cohesive formation, focused and up to speed to have a good and fair fight.  The Duke of Wellington once said that the battle is won in the preparation and positioning beforehand and not in the actual execution.  This event was a good example of that.  The long travel and discussion time preparing for the engagement as viewed in hristo's film compared to my 51 film, shows a lot of disparity of preparedness in getting positioned at maximum E with top speed for the upcoming fight.  This is not an excuse, but rather an observation.  The height disparity clearly is the result of many of the 190's beginning a climb out using this maximum speed and E as soon as the "fight's ON" was called by someone.  This simply exacerbated the already lower E and speed state of the still chaotic and organizing 51 flight.  In fairness, the event should have been restarted and ROE better understood by everyone.  In order to maintain the fun and remove the negative competitiveness aspect of this event, there should have also been an agreement to switch 190/51 rides by both sides and fly each other's planes as a second frame.  I emailed nash my film, so I will let him comment on any inaccuracies he feels I may have in my conclusions, as seen from my point of view.

On a personal note, I was very disappointed to read the arrogance, gloating, bitterness, anger and personal attacks by many people in this thread, of whom in the past I have had great respect.  It is particularly sad to see many remarks calling others cowards and even worse.  One is supposed to demonstrate humility and graciousness in victory as well as defeat, which is a sign of true leadership and maturity.  With all due respect hristo, this event didn't really demonstrate "the superior pilot skill of Luftwaffe pilots", but rather superior preparedness in entering this one singular engagement.  You are perhaps one of the best pilots I have ever encountered on-line in any sim and need no lessons in virtual aerial combat, however, you could use some mentoring in effective personal communication, that would round out your tremendous leadership potential.

I would like to thank nash, kieren and the others who acted as refs and CM's for this event.  Without their gracious giving of personal time away from family or simply selfishly flying for their own enjoyment, none of us would be able to participate in any of these special events.  <Salute>

Given the general tone of the communities, both here and on AGW, I said to my wife last night that after 4 years of virtual on-line flying that I think it's time to call it a day.  It's supposed to be a game of sharing some good fun with great people.  For now, it has deteriorated into a generally unhealthy environment and I'm actually ashamed, disgusted and embarrassed for all of us for being part of this.  If any of you don't feel the same way, than you need some personal pause and reflection on what has happened here with this situation.

A sad way to end my virtual on-line career, but I think it's time to permanently cancel both WB and AH memberships.  I have a pretty little C172 sitting in a hanger just crying for more real flight time, so I think perhaps I'll pay more attention to her.

Regards,
Badger

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Offline Nash

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2000, 10:24:00 AM »
"I emailed nash my film, so I will let him comment on any inaccuracies he feels I may have in my conclusions, as seen from my point of view." - Badger

Nope - what you describe represents what what happened from my perspective too. I feel compelled to comment further on how this thing is affecting everyone... and will probably do so once I can get a bit of time. As it is I only have time for this little note. You were indeed a gentleman in there Badger.

[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-24-2000).]

Offline Ripsnort

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2000, 10:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
Hey, it was FUBAR. Pretty normal for a dress rehersal.

This was the FIRST one. Don't give up on the concept...although maybe this "I got the biggest johnson" stuff oughta go into a drawer for a while.

I would still like to see some 8 v 8 or 12 v 12  (Multiples of Flights (sections for you Navy pukes) of 4.

Still think these rumbles could be fun.
Let's do some ROE work from what we've learned and maybe try something less charged with machismo.  Maybe VVS/LW or IJN/USN or USAAF, RAF/LW.


Bingo, a response I like.  I'm with Toad on this!

Offline Citabria

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2000, 10:43:00 AM »
I'm not pissed hristo.

btw do you remember a while back when I had J/s malfunction and I often rode along on your 190 wing exploits? was very fun and interesting to watch.
the night I asked if you wanted to wing together I had killed you twice in a p38 while you were in a 190a8. I asked if you wanted to wing up since you were facing 15 bishops with 4 knits and 30 rooks on. and we went and had a great time winging and killing. I'm sad you think that I had any motive other than having a good time. you comented on the rumble and I said I'd fly 190s if you needed one then I mentioned that it would be a better rumble if it were p47s vs 190s. so my friend I'm sorry you think I had such preconcieved notions but I have no such forsight or vision to think of such things. but truth is I fly all AH aircraft as best I can for the fun of it.

I knew what was coming when I launched in a p51 after easily downing what I think to be the best 51 pilots in practice duels vs 190a5 in the ta. but I wanted the challenge and it was indeed a challenge which I was lucky to not get shot down in the first 30 seconds when a 190 saddled me up and turned me in the wrong direction blew my flaps off and half my elevator. I only had one offensive moment on snefens and this was way after the other 51s were shot down. but he easily spun out of the way after taking some 50cal. other than that and a couple attempts to clear my smoking wingman I was defensive the entire time. the 190s were very very good  

you outmaneuvered, had better tactics and coordination than the p51s and worked together wonderfully. the p51s accepted the turn and burn contest with your 190s and died a fiery death for it.

just know that us dumb allies were not even smart enough to be tricky. we thought we would charge in like john wayne and say "I'm not gonna hit ya, the hell I'm not" but the LW overestimated the stangs and the stangs underestemated the LW.

I want to see more of these squad duels.
but they definitely need to be simplified.
the extraordinary flying of the LW is tarnished by the semantics and lawyerisms of the ROE. of the gloating by the LW and the dificulties faced by the p51s in downing the dancing 190s.


so sharp was the contrast of attitude in the snapshot I played after the rumble debacle. it was night and day.

it was a refreshing experience after the taunts and bad blood in the rumble.
it was night and day/heaven and hell in terms of fun factor.

the IJN lost both times but the teams switched sides after the first frame to take turns on both sides of the yamamoto mission.

in essence the contrast was similar to that of the anger filled nature of competition in the main arena to that of the casual and friendly atmosphere of the free for all in the TA.

weve had our clashes in the past when our egos get bruised but I hope we see through it as we ussually do and not take it as anything more than kids on the palyground fighting over the swings.

<S> to you guys in the LW and the Allies.
lets learn from our success and defeat and our mistakes to make the next rumble be it a slaughter or not a rumble that is enjoyed by all for what it is.

kids in the playground.


>
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline moose

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »
Greetings  fellow flight sim friends !

Well..i seem to caused a lot of problems.

Let me explain a few things  

I read about the snapshot events and was not aware it was for only  10x10.
I flew before the match and was told to dismantle my squad name ( European Air Force )

I saw the other Axis pilots used the "Luftwaffe" sign and i thought i had to use that too, so i did.

When we waited at the airstrip before taking off  ( about  10-15 minutes  ) i did not hear anything i could not fly at all.

When we were in formation i saw a few comments on my "luftwaffe" sign.
I was told not to use it, and i replied with :  Rgr.

I was told a had to be invited for the "luftwaffe" sqn.

So this is just a misunderstanding guys, excuse me for the hassle.

I am not a newbie with flightsims, but i am not defending myself here hehe....

But...considering all the flaming in this topic,, i dont think i would join  a  new luftwaffe vs yanks fight soon (if i was allowed to join it hehe)

Really...i had a blast...and why is it a problem when one squad has 1 plane more?

A arena with passwords would be the solution  maybe  ??

I know a good password:  moose
sorry..could not resist

One more thing: Is there a price at my head now ??

* Moose is running for his life

Moose_EAF322
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European Air Force

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icq: 60141549

I fly bishop country , evening at European time ( I live in Holland)

So, look for me and try to kill me  




[This message has been edited by Moose (edited 07-24-2000).]
<----ASSASSINS---->

Offline Wanker

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2000, 10:54:00 AM »
 
Quote
It's supposed to be a game of sharing some good fun with great people. For now, it has deteriorated into a generally unhealthy environment and I'm actually ashamed, disgusted and embarrassed for all of us for being part of this.

<S> Badger, you are one of the few that really "get it".

I hope that everyone in the AH community uses this debacle' of a thread to learn how NOT to act toward their fellow community brothers.


Offline Toad

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2000, 10:58:00 AM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo:
OK, Runstang, here you go.

Luftwaffe side had just had to agree to RoE on both fights, not to be called sissies. Of course, when Luftwaffe suggested the RoE, it was turned down as biased by regular Allied supporters on this board (Toad, you there ?);

Yes, Hristo, I am here. I am watching your incredible arrogance split this pilot group even further apart. WTG, chief!

In this first ever "Rumble" with all it's problems your guys won what appears to be a disputed victory. How will you do next week?

Oh, sorry, the well is almost so poisoned now that now one will drink from it, isn't it?

As for ROE, if you review the thread you'll find my sole objection was over the "no-icon" feature. Here, let me refresh everyone's memory:

*********************
quote: posted 07-06-2000 11:41 AM    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hristo:

Have you tried many vs many fights without icons in AH, Toad ?

In fact, I am ready to say that iconless fights in AH are the closest to the real thing as you can get on a PC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, Hristo, I didn't. I flew iconless in AH a couple of times. I flew the WB HA quite a bit whenever there was other people in there.

IMHO, AH is presently less capabable of a usable iconless environment than WB was when I played that. In fact, to me, it it SO unlike RL that you won't find me there again until it improves.

It certainly adds tension and it adds uncertainty and doubt...but mimic RL? Hardly.

While YOU may think this is "realistic", I don't think it's even close. Check Jedi's remarks above..there's another guy that flies for a living. He's absolutely right about camo paint.

This present environment doesn't mimic RL as much as it shows the problems that current technology has in trying to mimic RL.

I just spent the past few days flying around with other WW2 aircraft at an airshow. Because of the airshow rules, I once again could look at other aircraft at exactly KNOWN distances in flight.

So far, I've spent about two years of my life in the air. I spent a lot of that time looking out for other aircraft.

Tell me Hristo, upon what experience do you base your opinion?

******************************

You never did tell us all your flying experience, Hristo.

Jedi, a military pilot weighed in and agreed with the need for icons.

Let's get Andy Bush, another military pilot to speak out...oops, he already has...he thinks we need icons.

Face it, the pixel-size limitations imposed by a computer monitor and a need to switch views instead of glancing with your eyes in no way represent what you see in RL.

Like I said, I've been a professional pilot since 1974, with civilian, military and airline experience.

Tossing all the airline and military experience aside for the moment,I own and operate an open-cockpit WW2 trainer. I operate my brother's Vultee BT-13 WW2 trainer with cockpit/canopy configuration similar to many WW2 fighters.

I've flown both of these aircraft in formation with other WW2 aircraft; I've flown them in mock dogfights with other WW2 aircraft. I've flown them in airshows with LOTS of other WW2 fighter and bomber aircraft around me over known geographic check points so I knew their range as we maintained spacing to keep an aircraft in front of the crowd at all times.

...and IMHO (shared by many RL pilots that fly these games and this board), acm game visual technology on PC computers is not yet anywhere near a RL experience in terms of visual detail, judging closure rates and judging aspect, among other things.

It is seriously lacking.

Now YOU have so far not shared how you came to your conclusions that current "no icon" is "as real as it gets."

I'll suggest that "no icons" is much more an increase in "difficulty level" here than any increase in realism. Like when you "up" the skill level in another type of game and the AI enemies shoot faster and more accurately.

As I said: Tell me Hristo, upon what experience do you base your opinion?


NOTE TO ALL: None of the above should be taken to mean that I am satisfied with our current icon setup. I think there are many ways to improve them and make them LESS intrusive. I've posted on this in the various topics dealing with icons and I'm not going to repeat all of that. This is long enough, isn't it?  

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-24-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline ygsmilo

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2000, 11:11:00 AM »
Great post Badger, hopefully some people will read it more than once.

I did not fly all weekend, and after reading this thread, glad I did not.

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Offline RAM

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2000, 11:27:00 AM »
Moose  

no problems, bud   Now you explain it it is okay, all was a misunderstanding and ended in a big mess but there is no problem  

Thanks for participating, I'll see you over bishop skies and if you still are with that A5 I'll be proud to wing with you and Camo.

To be truth I suspected that you were an "infiltrator" for a moment   as I dont know you from MA...but hey! toejam happens and noone blames you about what happened  

-----------------------------------
Bagder:

<S!> you feel just like I do. And "someone" has broken a lot of things with me because I posted that I felt really near to how you do. I hope he doesnt flame you the way I was flamed by him.(I'm sure he wont...but if you were in LW side instead in allied, then maybe the story would be a different one).

BTW, Bagder,please dont stop flying AH. It is a nonsense to be disgusted at all with AH because this lamentable event. Just keep on flying in MA with Vadr (who is a class act) and get fun with it. Be sure to assist to well designed scenarios, choose them reading the Special event forum...and have fun.

But dont go...you'll be sorely missed...

Anyway, if there is a class act here that is you. <S!> Bagder...hope to see you (and Mrs Bagder) in AH's skies soon again.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-24-2000).]

Offline Pongo

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To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2000, 11:43:00 AM »
guys.
We should remember that this whole thing came about by Hangtime responding to someones(hristos?) arrogant claim that LW pilots were supperior.
A notion concieved in arrogance is unlikly to evolve to grace.
The subsequent behavior of the LW leader is not supprising to me. It is unfortunate but not supprising.
ROE. Anytime you set up an situation where both sides must engage you have moved to la la land as far as pilot skill goes.
Certainly the best P51 pilots and the best LW pilots must have highly evolved engagment reasoning. Its the pony WATCHING the merge that I worry about.
If one countries pilots were inatly supperior(nonsence) you could only prove it with a much more open kind of engagment, let the battle range far and wide, first side to 200% of starting count as kills wins. Battle starts on the ground at fields 50 miles appart. If the battle can turn into a route because of 10seconds indecision on one side or by the referees then it will always flip flop back and forth. A more protracted battle will probably end up in a near dead heat. But that is realisic anyway.
Badger. That was a cool post.


>[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 07-24-2000).]