To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots

[-duma-]

Hang, take a break. For you to be yelling at the organisers of the snapshots just shows how overserious you're taking this.

There was bound to be bitterness, it's just a pity to see Hristo fanning the flames. Big <S> to RAM though, since he's not taking the same route  

[Hristo]

From Snefens' film, the Luftwaffe take off formation:

Snefens
Nath11
RAM
BigJoe
Dingy
Camo
+ MooseEAF


other side of runway:
Stoickov
Vulcan
Udie
Berserkr

(Minus never took off, he was sitting on the runway).

However, Minus is irrelevant. We did not have 12 planes. We had 11.  

------------------
Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Camel]

You counting the guy filming Hirsto?

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Camel:
You counting the guy filming Hirsto?

I just did as him, watched the film again.

11 guys  

see we where well organized each one had its own wingman...
GROUP I:
-------
Stoickov -Vulcan
Udie     -BERSERKR

GROUP II:
-------
Camo     -Snefens
Nath11   -dingy
RAM      -BigJoe

MooseEAF was an unwanted walkon, and we nearly realized it when in flight. Hristo told udie not to dump him because he thought he completed our group (he took a look at the roster,fer sure, I did the same. there were 10 people in LUFTWAFFE squad...9 in Hristo's squad, one in a "clone" squad)

So he thought we were 10. I did think it too.

IMHO this guy  (one I never saw in MA in my LIFE) was some disturbing one, who deliverately sabotaged the rumble.

We all fell like stupids. But Hristo was 9 K away from our group...maybe it was my failure not to take a better look at it, as I asked myself what the hell was doing that one with us...

but when I saw him listed as "luftwaffe" in roster and when I counted the luftwaffes in the roster (10), I stopped worrying about it, and kept thinking in the rumble.

Was an unfortunate thing...or he is a saboteur or he is a newbie...

dunno  


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Hristo]

CC,counted him too (Snefens).

Minus was OTR, but was ordered to exit plane (with honest intention to fly with 10 planes, not more). Nash announced no more walkons and new pilots in formation, so I had to turn down Minus.

Still, it makes it 11. Of MooseEAF I found out later. Him taking off with us was a bad mistake. His forming of squad with identical name was incredible coincidence.  It was also the reason I believed that I may have invited him earlier. A bad coincidence, without intention to break the rules.

Tired of it for now, sorry

------------------
Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Hristo]

And yes, no mergediver will call me a scum that bends the rules.

------------------
Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Nath-BDP]

w0w! we had +1 person (newbie), I bet that saved us!

[Nash]

Ok... I was heading up the Refs so I better jump in here.

1st of all there were 11 planes per side... NOT 10, like Hang and Hristo reported... and not 12 vs 10 like Hang claims.

2nd. There was a *frantic* discussion regarding the merge between myself and the other ref's (mostly Mathman)- when we saw what was happening. When we realised that there were inded two groups (and this was not just LW, the Ponys split into two also) we were left with trying to distinguish just what the hell the merge WAS.

Now - the ROE was completely fediddleing FUBAR. Blame THAT - and do NOT insult us by saying that us 'pinheads' cannot read. I assure you we are quite capable of it. Insulting Mathman's 'education' is an insult to me... I very much appreciated his help.
 

Now here's what was wrong with the ROE that *you guys* came up with, and here's what us refs did.

Number one - you gave each side *two* fields to up from. Now - why in the world would this be done unless you wanted the flights to come in stagered? No reason to, unless for some reason you wanted to meet in the middle, form up and go into the merge together... so no... no reason to do that.

Now what we got is 4 different flights. The ROE states:

"Guns are COLD at the merge.. due to the large numbers of A/C and the likelyhood of their being somewhat spread out; the observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction. (all a/c have passed clear of each other co-alt at @15k)".

Let me parse this.

You acknowledge that the flights would be spread out. Now look at this realistically in terms of a merge. Do you seriously expect that the 1st two groups would meet up, then fly around in circles with eachother in some kind of a big AC stew waiting for the rest of the flights to show up? That's a tad untennable, no? So the LW's 2nd group shows up, joins in the mosh pit and waits till the 51's 2nd group comes blazing in and THEN the fight starts?

"The observers will announce 'fight's on' after merge conditions are completed to their satisfaction." When Mathman and I saw that y'all were staggering, and realized what was gonna transpire, I gave orders to Mathman to call "fight on" once the 1st acceptable, clean merge had taken place. Merge conditions had taken place to our satisfaction, we called it, and the fight was on.

A couple things Hang. 1st of all... I was riding observer with you, but because you either damaged yer plane or made a tactical decision, you decided to land only 2-3 minutes after upping. You screwed the landing, burrying yer prop on the pavement... and this perhaps accounts for just a little of yer ire? Regardless.. because of this I was stuck in the twr and left it to Mathman to call the merge. We were in constant direct communication and I'm fully satisfied that he called it right. Another thing - you seemed to be completely unaware (u missed the buffer) that the "fights on" had been called till almost 10 minutes later. You can't blame anyone else for that. And you can't blame the LW for seeing it and engaging.

Frankly I'm a little annoyed at this. I had hoped this would be a tense little scuffle, yes.. but it's just a freaking BLIP as far as these kinds of events go. Ya had yer shot, ya lost, but there will be many many more. And pretty much, the object is to have a scream flying in one of these things. To take it so personally, and to insult everyone around you (the people that took the time to be here and fly in this, the people that organized this, the people that tried to make it go smoothly) is outrageous.

I want to congralute the LW on thier win. And I want to congratulate ALL the flyers for their work in preparing and competing as best ya could.

I would hope that the guys on the losing side, whether justified or not... could just give a <S>, and plan on stickin' it to 'em next time. This kinda ranting serves nobody.

You guys authored that fediddleed ROE. Live with it.

I was gonna whip up a thing on the Rumble site documenting the fight, the preperations, etc. etc... But I'm a bit disgusted. Instead I'll only offer this:

 

[Citabria]

there is only one person to blame for the p51s being slaughtered and thats me.
I lead the mustangs and turned the p51s into the 190s and sealed them into a defensive position instead of leading them into a high speed climb without and turn on the merge. effectively delivering them on a pladder to the LW    

the 190s subsequently ravaged the p51s. We tried in vain to clear the 6's of our team members even though multiple 190s were always in firing range on everyones 6.

sadly the only one to survive was me.
my wingman is dead. the entire flight is dead. the 190s on my 6 have shot away my flaps while i tried to shoot them off my fellow flyers only to watch them flick and roll away after getting a single innefective burst of 50cal. I watch helplessly as the other last remaining p51 who has an oil leak is engulfed in a sea of red after his engine dies. I get angry for a second about my inability to stop the hoard of jerry's almost to the point that i dont care if they shoot me down now.  but wanting revenge I start that highspeed climb up to 20k with the 190s on me all the while taunting on the open channel saying "runstang 51 dweeb turn and fight". I think to myself 'I turned 9 mustangs into that fight already on their terms'. so seeing the moment i barrel roll down onto the 6 of a 190 and spray him w 50 cal to no effect. now the other 190s are on me spraying me with their "ineffective" cannons so split s dive for the deck and run for the acks of the nearby base. the taunts continue. they want me dead. so in frustration I land the remains of my p51 and exit.    


-------------------------------------

here is the merge. the lowest p51 is at 15k the highest are stalled out in a zoom climb at around 20k. the 4 190s at the top right are around d6 at about 18k and joining the fight. there are 11 190s and 10 p51s

   


p.s.
Ironically the LW has guaranteed that the fw190d9 will be released only as a perk plane since the 190a5 is superior to all aircraft in AH as is.


------------------
Citabria

"You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with friggin laserbeams attached to their heads."

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 07-23-2000).]

[RAM]

Nath...
 
So sorry things have bent this much...your work is well apreciated by everyone...and I mean EVERYONE. I am sure that after some relax and sleep Hang will see that his reactions werent that fair, right now he is outraged (and I can feel what happens with him...remember, the "official hot blooded guy of Aces High" is me   ), but I am sure he also thanks you for your work and effort.

If I must be sincere I wanted to stay clear of the rumble because I was sure that something like this would happen. And as I was unwantedly involved in the duel of Hristo vs hangtime because a misunderstanding I thought that it was better for me to stay clear of this event.

Now I can say that I am proud that I was there and flew. And I very deeply thank you, Nath, and Mathman and Kieren for being there and working hard to bring this up.

<S!> all of you. Thanks for your effort and please dont beel that bad. You did your best and we all (AND I MEAN ALL   ) apreciate it.

S!

(Edit...change all Nath's for Nash's   damn I must be VERY dumb  )


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Nash]

hehe RAM that's the 3rd time you've called me 'Nath' today  

Thanks for yer sentiment Ram... I appreciate it.

[RAM]

LOL!!!!

The other day I was in TA and I flew with nath...I didnt stop callimg him nash!!!

 

Sorry nath...er nash...er...

whatever      

[RAM]

   

Originally posted by Citabria:
6.
I watch helplessly as the other last remaining p51 who has an oil leak is engulfed in a sea of red after his engine dies.

Very poetic  ,but not quite true     the only Fw190A5 after thunder was me, the red sea of cons was on your 6 ... and you were on my long 6    

I killed it and did a high yoyo that ended in your low 6 of course much slower     you didnt try to intercept my yoyo in any moment (I'd have done that as the rumble was clearly lost...but WTF, I'm only a dweeb   )

Still the Ack hug was a bit embarrasing and so your refuse to come down and fight.To come down and try to kill one or two before dying..that was what I'd had done...

but of course ,as I said, I'm only a dweeb    

   

p.s.

Ironically the LW has guaranteed that the fw190d9 will be released only as a perk plane since the 190a5 is superior to all aircraft in AH as is.

Good bait, Citabria...

but sorry I think noone will bite this one    

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]

[minus]

me and nash get kicked at last 30 sec suxx if u due this before we can go to ponys !!!
damit Co are u diletant or just incapable ?
who of u have military carer ? i see probably nobady
 so why this mesi organization :-))))
 cya  and nxt time  THInK a litle more  and FASTER ! :-)))))

[Nash]

Btw - to completely shut the door on the 10v10, 11v11, 12v10 debate I'll say that there was tons of communication on this between the refs on both sides. We saw it from the start, and since the sides were even, didn't say anything.

If you dispute the numbers - looks at Snefen's photo, and consider that the 11th 51 was Hang's... in the hanger for repairs.