Author Topic: My True Feelings.....by Rude  (Read 3155 times)

Offline blitz

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My True Feelings.....by Rude
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2003, 09:56:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
I'll bet we could change that perception real quick if we pulled up stakes and went home, including keeping the billions for ourselves that Americans, notice I said Americans, not the US, not the US government, contribute every year to help those around the world in need.

Well, the perception might still be there but the rhetoric would certainly change. Where the hell would you be if we decided to end all trade with you country? A bit worse off than we'd be I'd bet.



Trade is something both side's benefit from if ya don't know :D


Regards Blitz


America is threathened by Iraq in no way , it's just plain rediculous

Offline SLO

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« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2003, 10:00:17 AM »
hmm not really iron......most of your CREDIT is due to BUYIN power outside your country...take that away and you'll be in big trouble.

Canada is your BIGGEST trading partner(yet Bush ignores us and prefers dealing with mexico)....call it arrogance or preference....we see it as arrogance

I live the North American style of life.....but since I'm french I try an study or view things in a little different manner.

I didn't mean anything derogatory about your country being arrogant...I was just saying the Truth about how others see you....yet you still think its jealousy

Thats the problem you see....you don't pay attention to how others see you...thats called arrogance.

about us bein in trouble if you don't trade with us....i think you may be wrong in that aspect....never forget Canada is the biggest supplier of natural products on this planet....you need us just like we need you....you get your uranium from us to make you look big...see we do help ya'z

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2003, 10:04:07 AM »
AKIron wrote:
Oh, forgot to mention Kuwait and Saudi. It has never been the intent or purpose of the US to overthrow a foreign government that is beneficial to it's citizens. And we don't declare war against those that haven't in some way provoked us.

Chile. President Allende. Democratically elected leader, a socialist unpopular with Americans. CIA helped overthrow him and put a murderous Pinochet in power.

Interestingly enough, in Saudi Arabia and other Middle East opressive dictatorships, it's a population minority group thatis opressing the majority. Those 'governments' do not have the people behind them; they're sitting on them, with the tacit support and acceptance of Americans.

So I'd argue that democracy and a free market would be MORE beneficial to the population, rather than having a regime that violates human rights. I'd say economically and spiritually, the Saudi people would be better off with democracy. So I'd argue that the words to be used would not be *beneficial to the people* but *beneficial to the US* - other than that, no other comments.

I agree with Rude's original statement. I apply it also to France, Russia, Germany and other nations. So when the French protest, they do it because they're the FRENCH government protecting FRENCH interests attempting to make FRANCE a better place for all FRENCH people living there.

So if you accept Rude's original statement, you cannot disrespect France for their stance without coming off as a hypocrite.

Flame away. Am just trying to inject some perspective and logic into the debate - I have no hidden agendas, and am personally undecided about whether a war would be a good thing, a necessary thing or whatever. Seems to me that one has to choose the decision that causes the least damage - there ain't no right one.

Offline blitz

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My True Feelings.....by Rude
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2003, 10:10:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Maybe you guys just want to see more Americans die....would that make ya happy? And when it happens, you'll blame us for rockin the boat and say it was our fault. Too predictable.


Nah, 60000 young americans dyin in the rice fields of Vietnam for an idiotic and wrong policy was just enough to remind us that the USA which did many great things in it's history can also make very big and bloody mistakes. Maybe this Holy crusades is another 1, not sure but possible.

I don't like the whole idea of one country decides who's to live and who's to die all around the globe.


Regards Blitz


America is threathened by Iraq in no way , it's just plain rediculous
« Last Edit: February 18, 2003, 10:35:55 AM by blitz »

Offline Toad

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My True Feelings.....by Rude
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2003, 10:14:53 AM »
With the disclaimer that I don't favor a US invasion of Iraq without UN mandate, allow me to highlight a few things that jump out at me in SLO's post.

Quote
Originally posted by SLO
do I want Saddam out...you bet your bellybutton I do.
[/b]

Well, here's your chance. How about pushing for SADDAM to comply with the UN Resolutions he's ignored for the last 12 years.

How about CANADA stepping up on the world stage and saying, "hey, enough's enough; the Inspectors aren't there to disarm Iraq and play hide and seek. They're there to CONFIRM THAT IRAQ HAS ALREADY disarmed, as Iraq agreed to do. So any obstruction of Inspections will be considered cause to act. Let's put the responsibility for avoiding conflict right where it should be: on Iraq."

And any BS about "the Inspectors" not being obstructed right now this very instant is just that. EVERY time Blix comes to the UN he says he needs more "compliance".

Quote
BUT after 4 of my countrymen died from a MISTAKE(pilot on drugs)....makes me go Hmm.....do i really want 2....


And several of mine died to a B-52 JDAM when the wrong coordinates were sent after a battery change on the designator.

Two points. 1) The pilots weren't briefed on the Canadian exercise. That is a command and control function. It obviously had tragic results. However, if you're trying to make the case that only the US makes command and control errors......

Hate to be the one to point this out, but mistakes are made in every war. In fact, they're made in training exercises too.

2) "flying on drugs". Yes, basically speed. I think if you research you'll find every military has that in their "bag of tricks". Look how long the missions are/were in Afghanistan.  If I'm not mistaken, speed for aircrews goes back to WW2 in most nations.

I'm sorry it happened. But it WAS an accident.


Quote
try korea....


Korea's being handled quite nicely, particularly given the way the UN is handling Iraq. Every day NK makes another boneheaded announcement that INSURES the UN will have to actually ACT.

Don't forget that the US forces in Korea serve under the United Nations Command, Combined Forces Command. There's that blue flag that you all revere so much waving at the DMZ.

Sooner or later the ostriches of the Security Council are going to have to do something about NK.

All without the US saying or doing anything. Thus avoiding the "arrogant" and "unilateral" BS that we get pasted with all the time.

NK is alienating itself from the rest of world and managing that all by it's insane little self.


Quote
but again I say he has to go....what I sayin is your doin it the WRONG way!!!


There is no "right" way. However, you can sit around saying "he's got to go" for a long time. More than 12 years apparently. Sooner or later..... and it's "later" by anyone's measure...... you have to put up or shut up.

All that said, I'm not for a US invasion without UN mandate. I say bring all the troops home from the region and let the world keep the peace in the Middle East.

BTW, we get lambasted for the Palestine/Israel thing all the time too. Cod knows I'm not an Israel supporter but I do support their right to a homeland and I know they wouldn't have that if it were left to the rest of the world minus the US.

But what I want to know is... for all the criticism of US policy in Israel/Palestine, at least we have one and we're in there trying to make it better.

Where are the rest of yas? Don't hear much guidance given to Israel's Sharon or Palestine's Arafat from Canada. Did I miss it?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2003, 10:19:00 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2003, 10:26:57 AM »
@Iron : That's not an arrogant post you think ?
If so show me a really arrogant  post so I'll be able to compare.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2003, 10:39:12 AM »
Here you go Straffo:

Quote
Straffo

Le français n'est pas plus une langue de merde que le polonais.


Arrogant enough?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2003, 10:39:45 AM »
But toad
How can you spout off high an mighty about US sacrifice and ignore the sacrifces of my country. In your eyes and words the deaths and service both in peace and war  of canadians doenst exist. Its easier for you to think that no country ever does anything but the US. Well we didnt participate in Panama or Granada..wonder why not. We were there in Afganistan and The gulf and nearly every where else. But if we dont aggree with you on this one we are a bunch of traitorous whimps.
Could it be that we look at what your country is going to do and think its a huge mistake backed by a bunch of middle sized to large lies?
I could cut and paste all your nonsence about only the US ever doing anything and reply to you at length about the back up and support the US has recieved for 50 years from my small country with a population the size of one of your cities. But why bother. You wont see it and you dont care.
We are not affraid to join you in attacking Iraq. We dont think that it should be done period.
Your state department spin doctors seem to be getting lots of americans on side for the blood bath, forgive the rest of the world if we are not so persuaded by your propaganda machine.

Rude. I know that the people in charge have a much more realistic view of the potential cost in lives of "liberating" the iraqi Oil-people. How many Iraqis do you think died in the last gulf war?

Offline Rude

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« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2003, 10:39:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
@Iron : That's not an arrogant post you think ?
If so show me a really arrogant  post so I'll be able to compare.


Here's one for ya.....US arrogance ya say?

EU candidates accept joint position on Iraq
BRUSSELS (AP) — Future EU members endorsed a joint European declaration Tuesday warning Saddam Hussein he has one last chance to disarm, hoping to mend a bitter rift over a possible war on Iraq.

The endorsement ignored the damaging impact of French President Jacques Chirac's tirade against eastern European nations that have backed Washington's hard-line stance.

"We had extensive, very effective and constructive consultations and we have reached an agreement," on the EU summit declaration, said Greek President Costas Simitis, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency.

The 13 future members backed the hard-fought statement by European leaders warning Saddam he faces a "last chance" to disarm. They gave no deadline and said U.N. weapons inspectors must have more time to finish their work.

While the declaration aimed at creating unity, Chirac's withering attack on future EU members who signed letters last month backing the U.S. position created a new split between pro-American and staunchly European camps.

"It is not really responsible behavior," Chirac told reporters Monday just after the EU issued its declaration on Iraq. "It is not well brought up behavior. They missed a good opportunity to keep quiet."

He warned the eastern candidates their position could be "dangerous," because the parliaments of the 15 current EU nations still have to ratify the decision for 10 new members to join the bloc next year. He singled out Romania and Bulgaria, who are still negotiating to enter the bloc in 2007.

France has long been the least enthusiastic about the prospect of EU expansion, fearing its own leading influence would inevitably diminish.

Britain, the United States' staunchest ally, and Germany, which with France has tried to slow the drive toward war, criticized the attempt to silence eastern European nations.

"They have as much right to speak up as Great Britain or France or any other member of the European Union today," Blair told reporters in London. "They know the value of Europe and America sticking together."

Eastern European capitals reacted defiantly to the French attack, reminiscent to some of the former Soviet Union's overbearing manner.

"It is not the first time that pressure is being exerted upon us in one or another form," Bulgarian Deputy Foreign Minister Lyubomir Ivanov told state radio. "But in my opinion this is not the productive way to reach unity and consensus in the Security Council."

Romanian President Ion Iliescu called Chirac's remarks "irrational."

"Such reproaches are totally unjustified, unwise, and undemocratic," he told the British Broadcasting Corp.

The Bulgarian prime minister welcomed the endorsement as a "positive show of unity for the union."

"The document the 13 agreed upon is proof that this meeting here ... has had a positive effect," said Bulgarian Prime Minister Simeon Saxcoburggotski, the country's former king.

In addition to the declaration, 10 former communist countries, seven of them EU candidates, reiterated their support for Washington's position on Saddam.

The two statements reflected the deep divide within Europe over Iraq, one of the factors prompting Greece, which holds the EU's rotating presidency, to call Monday's emergency summit to mend the rift.

Despite Chirac's veiled threat, the candidates said they did not believe their entry into the EU was at risk.

"I believe Chirac said what he did in a moment of irritation," Romanian Foreign Ministry State Secretary Cristian Coltianu said. "We consider the process of enlargement to be irreversible."

The EU declaration was endorsed by representatives of the Czech Republic, Cyprus, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Malta.

Offline Rude

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My True Feelings.....by Rude
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2003, 10:45:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
But toad
How can you spout off high an mighty about US sacrifice and ignore the sacrifces of my country. In your eyes and words the deaths and service both in peace and war  of canadians doenst exist. Its easier for you to think that no country ever does anything but the US. Well we didnt participate in Panama or Granada..wonder why not. We were there in Afganistan and The gulf and nearly every where else. But if we dont aggree with you on this one we are a bunch of traitorous whimps.
Could it be that we look at what your country is going to do and think its a huge mistake backed by a bunch of middle sized to large lies?
I could cut and paste all your nonsence about only the US ever doing anything and reply to you at length about the back up and support the US has recieved for 50 years from my small country with a population the size of one of your cities. But why bother. You wont see it and you dont care.
We are not affraid to join you in attacking Iraq. We dont think that it should be done period.
Your state department spin doctors seem to be getting lots of americans on side for the blood bath, forgive the rest of the world if we are not so persuaded by your propaganda machine.

Rude. I know that the people in charge have a much more realistic view of the potential cost in lives of "liberating" the iraqi Oil-people. How many Iraqis do you think died in the last gulf war?


Well, let me quote your own press.......

Copyright 1993 Pacific Press Ltd.  
The Vancouver Sun
March 11, 1993, Thursday, 1* EDITION

SECTION: Pg. B12
LENGTH: 221 words
HEADLINE: War victims exaggerated, analyst says
BYLINE: INDEPENDENT
DATELINE: London
BODY:
   As few as 1,500 Iraqi soldiers may have been killed by allied forces in
the Persian Gulf War - a tenth of the previous lowest estimate - according
to a former analyst in the U.S. Defence Intelligence Agency, John Heidenrich.

The most conservative estimate of Iraqi battlefield casualties from allied
air and ground action had been 15,000 but most range from 25,000 to
100,000. Fewer casualties could help to explain the astonishing speed of
Iraq's military recovery after the war.

According to a former British chief of defence staff, Sir David Craig, the
allies stopped their advance before achieving their objective of destroying
President Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard partly because they feared
accusations of "butchery."

It has always been a mystery what happened to hundreds of thousands of
Iraqi soldiers thought to have been in the Kuwait theatre of operations
south of the Euphrates. A senior British officer said after the war that he
assumed thousands of dead lay "in collapsed trenches."

Based on interception of signals from more than 40 divisions, allied
intelligence had to assume that there were more than 600,000 Iraqi troops
when the allied air bombardment began on Jan. 17, 1991. It is now widely
accepted that those divisions were at between 50 and 75 per cent strength,
at most.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2003, 10:45:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Here you go Straffo:



Arrogant enough?


see in my answer here :http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79205

You made a little translation error.

And I didn't edited my previous post to change my sentence.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2003, 10:48:41 AM by straffo »

Offline Naso

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« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2003, 10:46:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Nathan Hale wasn't afraid to die.


:confused:

Who is Nathan Hale?

Offline straffo

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« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2003, 10:47:35 AM »
Rude do you think it's more or less arrogant than AKIron post ?

If it's less arrogant what about explaining me HOW AKIron's post is less arrogant ?

Offline Rude

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« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2003, 10:49:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
:confused:

Who is Nathan Hale?


He was an American Revolutionary Patriot.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2003, 10:53:51 AM »
Show me where I've ignored Canada's sacrifices please.

As for the agree/disagree, I think you can find numerous posts where I've said I don't support US action against Iraq without UN Security Council mandate. Forgive me, but isn't this your position as well?

Population of one of our cities? No, you've got ~ 30 million +. We've no city that size; you've got a bit more than 10% of our population. And your "defense" spending, on a percentage basis, is lower than it was prior to WW2.

Canada does support UN action and it supports the US, usually. In fact, Canada at least does participate, far more then can be said for most of the nation's b*tching right now. I recognize that and so do most Americans. However, be realistic and honest with yourself.

As to the political/diplomatic side of it, you folks can feel free to take the lead on any of the International Issues that you think we're screwing up.

I'd certainly welcome Canada announcing that they will engage Palestine and Israel in peaceful talks and solve that problem for the world. Feel free to deal with North Korea as well.

Take it as "Canada bashing" if you will....... and I suppose you will..... but I never ignored Canada's sacrifice. I also don't have an unrealisitic view of Canada's contribution. Nor have I seen much engagement politically/diplomatically in the true "hot spots" of the world.

Just how I see it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!