The P-61 "Black Widow" Will Be A Big Disappointment

[maxtor]

Originally posted by Karnak
In a nutshell:

P-61B Black Widow: 360mph
Mosquito NF.Mk XXX: 420mph

That said, bring them both and the Ju88G-7b and J1N1-S Gekko "Irving".

Not to mention P-61 is a damn sight more durable, in a nutshell - buff tuff with 4x20mm.

http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p61_9.html

[J_A_B]

Um, Rip--those numbers are for something like a P-38F, a distinctly inferior plane to the P-38L we have in AH.

And where the heck did you find 425 MPH for the P-61?  Most sources list 360 or so.

J_A_B

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by J_A_B
Um, Rip--those numbers are for something like a P-38F, a distinctly inferior plane to the P-38L we have in AH.

And where the heck did you find 425 MPH for the P-61?  Most sources list 360 or so.

J_A_B

Thats MAX speed, not cruise.

[Frogm4n]

only 600 ki67s were made, and we have those.

[Nashwan]

The P-61C didn't see combat, did it? I thought only a handfull were completed before the end of the war, and only just over 40 by 1946.

[Reschke]

The Ta-154 Moskito?!

Sure I know "prototype and all that stuff". But it did see combat to a limited extent and it was a kick butt ride similar to the Brit Mossy.



Origin: Focke-Wulfe Flugzeugbau GmbH
Models: V1 to V15, A and C series
Type: Night and All-weather fighter
Engine:
Type: Junkers Jumo inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: 2
Horsepower:
V1, 2 - Jumo 211N - 1,520hp
V3-15, A-1 - Jumo 213E - 1,750hp
C - Jumo 213A - 1,776hp

Dimensions:
Span: 16.00m
Length: 12.56m
Height: 3.60m

Weights:
Empty: 1810kg (3,990lbs.)
Maximum Loaded 2500kg (5,512lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum speed 670km/h (416mph)
Service Ceiling: 11,000m (36,090ft)
Range: 900km (559 Miles)

Armament:
Two MG 17 and a 20mm MG/FF

Now for my flame suit...

OK I give up; don't give the LW guys another ride. I am sorry for making such an idiotic statement about bringing in another LW ride for everyone to squeak about.  

[2stony]

Originally posted by MRPLUTO

The P-61B carried 6,400 lbs of bombs, which along with 4 x 20mm cannons give it a huge punch.

     The early models also carried 4-50 cal. on top, but most were removed because the muzzle flash blinded the pilot. Just think, 4-50s and 4-20mm in a concentrated fire. That would destroy a bomber formation in a heartbeat.

[CavemanJ]

Originally posted by 2stony
Originally posted by MRPLUTO

 

     The early models also carried 4-50 cal. on top, but most were removed because the muzzle flash blinded the pilot. Just think, 4-50s and 4-20mm in a concentrated fire. That would destroy a bomber formation in a heartbeat.

hmm.. then the .50 muzzle flash must be horribly undermodeled in AH.  The turret is behind the gunner seat on the upper fuse (barrels don't even reach back edge of the canopy) and the gunner's seat is behind the pilot.



From what I've read the turret was removed because of buffeting problems, and it was put back on for the second half of the -61B production run.  IIRC the turret could be locked forward by the pilot to give 4x.50 and 4x20mm at the same time, or it could be operated by the gunner or radar person.

[Gorf]

Okay time to bring up something that will annoy MRPLUTO and a few others.

The Black Widow, even for its mass, could OUT TURN any US fighter that was was used in WWII.  I got 8 or 9 books on the P-61 and in two of them they state that in a sustained turn the P61 could outturn any US fighter used in WOrld War II, including the P38 later models.  Going to take a little to dig through my books to find page numbers and comparison charts.  I beleive Flight Journal even published an article about the P61 that stated this also.  

Other Night Fighters may be faster, BUT the don't mach the survivablitly and bomb loadout that it could carry.  It was a technological marvel of its day.  There is some aspects of the Blakc WIdow that are still TOP SECRET even today.

[MRPLUTO]

Hey Gorf,

I checked out some websites on the P-61, and they said it was "surprisingly manuverable" for such a large plane.  So maybe you're right.  If you can find some stats, please post them or a link.  I won't be annoyed, but I will be amazed if the "Black Widow" was as manuverable as you say.

******

Rip,

The P-61C had a top speed of 425 mph, but only 40 of these were built.  We'd most likely get the B model, whose top speed was only 356 mph.

******

Oedipus,

I'm not saying we shouldn't get the P-61 someday, just that...well, you read what I said.  Give the masses what they want!



MRPLUTO

[Ripsnort]

Well we should get the C model then with this late war theme in the MA.  Production numbers apparently don't seem important in AH aircraft but "actual combat" does.

[2stony]

Another little side note about the P-61. It was the first plane that the U.S. tested an ejection seat.

[JB73]

Originally posted by MRPLUTO
 
Karnak,

957 Spit XIV's were produced compared to 650-700 Fw-190D's. Not a big difference. I'd perk the Dora, if it were my decision. That would be more consistant with what's already been perked.

It's misleading to say that more Spit XIV's were produced than N1K2-J's. At least 415 N1K2-J Shiden-kai's were produced. However, in addition, 1,435 N1K1-J's Shiden's with very similar performance and guns were also produced. The modifications made on the Shiden-kai were to forward visibility and to the landing gear. And although the C. 205 was rare, yet remains unperked, I think the C. 205 limits itself because of its own drawbacks (range, durability). It's the rare, Uberplanes that tend to get perked, and should be.

according to a book i have about the FW 190-d9 there were over 1500 work numbers associated to the Dora.....

where did you get your numbers?

[Yeager]

MRPLUTO,

Ive found that damned near every ride in AH is a disappointment in one respect or another.  On the flip side, most rides have a redeeming quality that makes them interesting to some extent.

I can only speculate on how the P61 would fare in AH MA but I do love speculating so here goes

The P61 would be a hoot to fly just because it is so cool looking

Plus seeing how the guys at HTC would model it both artistically and physically is just about as much fun, if not more, then actually ever seeing it in AH.  I honestly dont think we will see it.

Another point to ponder is to see if HTC would/could model radar onboard a moving platform rather than just limit radar to ground points.  This alone is an exciting ponder point.

Again, I doubt we will ever realize a P61 in AH.

Did they (HTC) ever follow through and give the Arado the aft viewing periscope?

Anyhoo, heres hoping

[Staga]

Well P-61C was first delivered at summer 1945 so guess that sub-model is out (anyway only 41 was built).

About roll rate: "if the pilot was able to exert a pretty hefty 90 pound force on the control wheel at about 330mph IAS the P-61 would roll at a rate of 49 degrees per second , taking seven and one third seconds to complete a full roll."

Topspeed was about 360-370mph up to 15000ft and it decreased fast after that alt.

From AHT.