Author Topic: The P-61 "Black Widow" Will Be A Big Disappointment (Read 1724 times)

MRPLUTO · « **on:** February 20, 2003, 04:54:13 PM »

It may look cool, and every Tom, Dick, and Harry in AH seems to want it, but since the P-61 is slower than a P-38, bigger than a P-38, and less manuverable than a P-38, it will be an even easier target than a P-38.

If we had real nighttime conditions without enemy icons then it would do very well sneaking up on buffs and blowing them up in one quick burst. But we don't, so it won't.

What the "Black Widow" probably will be used for in AH is ground attack. The P-61B carried 6,400 lbs of bombs, which along with 4 x 20mm cannons give it a huge punch.

Since it was rather rare in WW2 (only 700 produced), should the P-61 be perked? If so, how much?

MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33

CavemanJ · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2003, 05:35:15 PM »

Yep yep, bring the Widow to AH

Since when did real world rarity have anything to do with whether or not a bird was perked? Last I heard the perk system was for balancing the planes in the arena. And going by your statement the Widow would have a higher eny value than the -38 /shrug

Squire · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2003, 05:39:39 PM »

It will be a grape in MA. Squish. As far as an event a/c its equally useless. Its just about the poorest choice for an AH a/c I can think of. Has a cool name, and it looks nice, thats it. It was a specialist night fighter, and was never ever intended to go up against fighters. Much like a Ju-88G, or a He-219. I can think of 50 planes we need a hell of a lot more than a P-61.

MRPLUTO, you nailed it in the first sentence of your post.

-tronski- · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2003, 07:14:15 PM »

Is it confirmed that its coming?

Tronsky

Karnak · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2003, 08:04:54 PM »

In a nutshell:

P-61B Black Widow: 360mph
Mosquito NF.Mk XXX: 420mph

That said, bring them both and the Ju88G-7b and J1N1-S Gekko "Irving".

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2003, 08:58:27 PM »

Tronsky,

It's not confirmed the P-61 is ever coming, but since so many people want it, we'll probably see it someday.

******

CavemanJ,

My understanding of the perk system is that one of its functions is to reduce the number of historically rare Uber-planes we see in the MA. Hence, the P-51D, La-7, and Fw-190D, although superior aircraft, are not perked, in part because they were used extensively. But the Ta-152, some F4U models, and the Spit XIV are perked because they were rarities in combat.

This doesn't seem to apply to GVs, since only 70 (!) Ostwinds were produced in WW2.

MRPLUTO

Karnak · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2003, 09:25:44 PM »

MrPluto,

The Spitfire Mk XIV was produced in larger numbers than the Fw190D-9 (and vastly larger numbers than the F4U-1C{this wasn't perked for quite a while}, C.205 and N1K2-J), entered service before even the P-51D and saw heavy use through the last year and a bit of the war.

Due to those things, the Spitfire Mk XIV breaks you're theory.

SunKing · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2003, 09:31:13 PM »

Would rather see the Japenese Plane set added to. I'd like to see more competitive planes to the Spit, La, Pony horde.

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2003, 11:27:51 PM »

Karnak,

It's actually not a theory; I'll try to locate some BB quotes from HTC people on this subject. Or maybe HiTech or Pyro will just respond and settle the matter.

There may have been more Spit XIV's than 190D's. I don't know. This principle may not always be applied evenly, but I still think that's one purpose of the perk system.

MRPLUTO

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2003, 12:21:27 AM »

Karnak,

957 Spit XIV's were produced compared to 650-700 Fw-190D's. Not a big difference. I'd perk the Dora, if it were my decision. That would be more consistant with what's already been perked.

It's misleading to say that more Spit XIV's were produced than N1K2-J's. At least 415 N1K2-J Shiden-kai's were produced. However, in addition, 1,435 N1K1-J's Shiden's with very similar performance and guns were also produced. The modifications made on the Shiden-kai were to forward visibility and to the landing gear. And although the C. 205 was rare, yet remains unperked, I think the C. 205 limits itself because of its own drawbacks (range, durability). It's the rare, Uberplanes that tend to get perked, and should be.

MRPLUTO

CavemanJ · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2003, 01:50:50 AM »

Real world rarity has nothing to do with it. There were, what, less than 200 F4U-1C's made? Less that actually saw combat?

The -1C was NOT a perk bird when it was introduced. It was perked as a cheap perk for the simple fact it was accounting for 20+% of all kills in the MA. It was an unbalancing force in the arena in the eyes of HTC (and a bane to everyone else

) so it got a cheap price put on it.

akak · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2003, 01:52:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MRPLUTO

My understanding of the perk system is that one of its functions is to reduce the number of historically rare Uber-planes we see in the MA. Hence, the P-51D, La-7, and Fw-190D, although superior aircraft, are not perked, in part because they were used extensively. But the Ta-152, some F4U models, and the Spit XIV are perked because they were rarities in combat.

MRPLUTO

HiTech said once while he was online that the perk system isn't based on the rarity of the plane but what influence it has on gameplay. Any plane that is perked would have a significant impact on gameplay if they were unperked.

And don't even think about saying it, the La7 doesn't effect the gameplay of the arena so that's why it isn't perked.

Ack-Ack

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2003, 07:44:33 AM »

Dear HiTech,

Is there any truth to my belief that, "one of [the perk system's] functions is to reduce the number of historically rare Uber-planes we see in the MA"?

Then maybe we can get this thread back on track...

MRPLUTO

Curval · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2003, 07:57:04 AM »

MrP,

Very brave of you to post this...I'm surprised Rip hasn't brought out the "cat-o-nine tails" and had you flogged in front of the squad for suggesting that the P61 is basically a waste of time.

But, if he does it to you...he better do it to me too.

I agree completely...night fighters are a waste of time in the MA due to the icon issue.

Having said that, it may be able to be used in scenarios "if" the icons are removed for that particular event.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2003, 09:10:12 AM »

I've read reports of the performance being damn near equal to the P-38 for manueverability. Now granted, the P38 weighs 1/2 as much, consider the P61 has 2X 2100 hp P&W's, total 4200 hp! Max speed is faster than the P38.

P61 Stats
Specifications:
Length: 49' 7" (15.11 m)
Height: 14' 8" (4.47 m)
Wingspan: 66' (20.12 m)
Gross Weight: 35853 lbs (16260 kg)
Max Weight: 35855 lbs (16260 kg)

Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 2
Powerplant: Pratt & Whitney R-2800
Horsepower: 2100 hp each

Performance:
Range: 1200 miles (1932 km)
Cruise Speed: 275 mph (442 km/hr)
Max Speed: 425 mph (684 km/hr)
Ceiling: 46200 ft (14081 m)

P38 Stats
Specifications:
Length: 37' 10" (11.53 m)
Height: 12' 10" (3.91 m)
Wingspan: 52' 0" (15.85 m)
Wing area: 328 sq. ft (30.47 sq. m)
Empty Weight: 11780 lbs (5342 kg)
Gross Weight: 14456 lbs (6556 kg)
Max Weight: 15500 lbs (7029 kg)

Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 2
Powerplant: Allison V-1710-27/29
Horsepower 1150 hp each

Performance:
Range: 500 miles (805 km)
Cruise Speed: 300 mph (483 km/hr)
Max Speed: 390 mph (628 km/hr)
Ceiling: 39000 ft (11887 m)