Author Topic: The P-61 "Black Widow" Will Be A Big Disappointment (Read 1751 times)

Gorf · « **Reply #30 on:** February 21, 2003, 10:34:30 PM »

Mr Pluto,

I will post the figures as soon as I can. Going to take a little to go through the books.

Alexander

Squire · « **Reply #31 on:** February 21, 2003, 11:23:49 PM »

It weighed over 20,000lbs empty. It had a top speed of 369mph for the A and B models, the ones used during the war in any serious number.

It was the size of a medium bomber, and any notion that it could out perform 1945 USAAF day fighters is an utter fantasy.

It was a very good night fighter, thats what it was. X-plane? no.

Staga · « **Reply #32 on:** February 21, 2003, 11:55:25 PM »

C-47 could out turn some fighters but it couldn't out manoeuvre them.

Karnak · « **Reply #33 on:** February 22, 2003, 02:48:28 AM »

JB73,

All of my books that give any indication of Fw190D production total claim that the total was about 700.

Here is one:

The History of German Aviation
Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulfe's Designer and Test Pilot

By Wolfgang Wagner
Schiffer Military History
ISBN: 0-7643-0644-8

Here is an unpleasant (for Fw190D-9 fans) description of the situation they faced:

Dora-Nines equipped most of the Luftwaffe's fighter units during the last fateful months of the Third Reich, but in combat with the Allies - particularly their P-51s and Spitfire XIVs - they were frequently overwhelmed. The Luftwaffe's problems centered on a shortage of fuel, which allowed only small formations of fighters, and of battle-hardened veteran pilots. For instance, when JG 6 (commanded by Major Gerhard Barkhorn, the German pilot who had a combat record of 301 air victories) in April 1945 took delivery of 150 brand new Dora-Nines, it could only fly patrols by four aircraft at a time against massed wings of Allied fighters.

Suave · « **Reply #34 on:** February 22, 2003, 03:09:30 AM »

If they introduced the p61, they wouldn't be able to model all the cool optics and gunnery mechanisms it had, and you would in turn see a never ending train of p61 whines .

Lghtning · « **Reply #35 on:** February 22, 2003, 07:37:26 AM »

You should beware, Not all 38's are as easy to kill as you may think.

Staga · « **Reply #36 on:** February 22, 2003, 08:42:00 AM »

Hehe where's Citabria

nopoop · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2003, 03:21:25 PM »

If there is a P61 lobby, I've never seen it..

Now you talk about a Ki84 lobby ??

Heard rumors of one around here

Stickman · « **Reply #38 on:** February 22, 2003, 07:24:30 PM »

In regards to the above performance stats of the P38 Vs. the P61...

The numbers quoted above appear to be for the P38G.

The P38L's max speed was 440 mph @28,500', engines producing 1725 HP each, max rate of climb was 4750 FPM to 5000', with a best time to 20,000' of 4 minutes 35 seconds (averaged 4400 fpm). Level flight acceleration @ 25,000' for a fully fueld and armed (clean) P38L at METO (NOT WEP) was 2.8 mph per second.

The P38 was more aerodynamic than the P61, had a better horsepower/weight ratio, and lower wingloading. The P61 was built for nightfighting, not to escort bombers or perform sweeps through enemy airspace in daylight. The only areas where the 38L loses ground to the P61 are forward firing armament and ordnance payload. The P61 had 4x20mm compared to the P38's 4x.50. The 38L could carry 4000# of bombs to the 6000# + of the P61.

Karnak · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2003, 12:01:14 AM »

Those are some nice fantasy numbers for the P-38 you've got there Stickman.

It didn't actually perform that well though.

I do agree that the P-38 would have a decided advantage over the P-61 in any case.

Stickman · « **Reply #40 on:** February 23, 2003, 12:09:23 AM »

Not fantasy numbers at all, there is plenty of test data to back it up. And yes, the P61, for what it was built for, was a good aircraft, but certainly not the equal, or even a close runner up, to the P38L in it's final incarnation.

Incidentally, there was more than 1 variant of the 38L. The 1600HP version (actually basically the same P38, but not given the Ok to run at a higher supercharger boost setting) had performance numbers slightly lower, 425 MPH@25,000, max ROC of 4100 FPM to 5k with a climb to 20K of 5 min, etc. All in all, still far superior to the P61.

You might also be interested in knowing, the 38L was equipped with a tail warning radar system.

Squire · « **Reply #41 on:** February 23, 2003, 01:14:05 AM »

The night fighter varient of the P-38L had the radar gear, it wasnt standard on the day fighters.

Most of the stats for the P-38L have it as 414-425mph approx max speed, but in any case it was a fast ship. The AH #s are very close to what it flew like.

As for the P-61 it would be little better in air combat than an A-20G Havoc. In fact, the A-20Gs #s are not far off a P-61 at all. P-61B is a bit faster (@ 20mph) but heavier than an A-20G. Handling is probably close as well.

Stickman · « **Reply #42 on:** February 23, 2003, 02:06:11 AM »

The 414 MPH top speed listed would be at 54" HG, or military power (rated for 1 hour at this power setting). 425 mph would be 1600 HP, or 60" HG (WEP) and rated for 15 minutes at this setting. Keep in mind that the P38H, which also listed with a top speed of 414 mph was not rated for WEP use and achieved this top speed using 54" HG (1425 HP).

I flew the 38L a few sorties tonight in AH, and as expected, it's pretty much like most other sims....109's can run it down in a dive and catch it in level flight on the deck. Also, the dive brake doesn't seem to brake the dive much:)

cobia38 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 23, 2003, 02:29:01 AM »

OH the gv killin I could do with a p-61:D

Squire · « **Reply #44 on:** February 23, 2003, 03:15:05 AM »

Which 109s? I find the P-38L in AH is a very good fighter, but flying it in the MA is an uphill battle to be sure, 109G-10s, LA-7s, P-51Ds ect.

Fly it in the CT, or Snapshots (when available). You will find it does quite well if flown to its strengths, vs IJN and LW fighters. Its not the very best, but it can certainly hold its own.

The small dive flaps are not big enough to cause a lot of drag, just to help it come out of compression faster, and they do that in AH.

As far as out diving a 109, they couldnt do that in real life, although at high speeds its boosted ailerons could give it an edge in a reversal.

For level speeds, its as fast or faster than a 109F-4, 109G-6 or a Fw 190A-5. It hits 350 TAS at 1k with boost. Its no slouch.

Regards.