Author Topic: The P-61 "Black Widow" Will Be A Big Disappointment (Read 1723 times)

Stickman · « **Reply #45 on:** February 23, 2003, 09:59:54 AM »

"As far as out diving a 109, they couldnt do that in real life, although at high speeds its boosted ailerons could give it an edge in a reversal. "

Not only could it outdive the 109 in reality, it could do it easily. The P38 was in the same class as the Jug in it's dive acceleration.

CavemanJ · « **Reply #46 on:** February 23, 2003, 11:10:12 AM »

time to end the hijack...

Bring the Widow to AH!!!

please

Squire · « **Reply #47 on:** February 23, 2003, 03:38:06 PM »

Sorry Stickman, no. There is no source for that claim. Bf 109s are not Zeros.

Btw, I am a big fan of the P-38, in AH as well, and often come to its defense on the AH BB by those that slag it.

Regards.

Stickman · « **Reply #48 on:** February 23, 2003, 04:01:25 PM »

Squire, I'm not simply a fan of the P38, I've researched it off and on for going on 5 years, spoken to the gentlemen who flew them and those who worked on them. The pilots knew it had an awsome dive and zoom, as did the engineers who built it. If it hadn't been for it's extreme dive acceleration it wouldn't have had near the problems with compressibility that it did because it wouldn't have had to worry about reaching compression speeds so quickly even when performing such a simple maneuver as a split-S. The 109 had a good dive acceleration, better than the 190 in fact, but it simply wasn't even in the same class as the P47 and the P38. Nothing was.

Fridaddy · « **Reply #49 on:** February 24, 2003, 12:30:22 AM »

Its not the sword
Its the Swordsman

To a point.
The P-61 was a attacker and a nightfighter. As there is no nightfighting (other than VFR) than the P-61 inst a problem. But if the P-61 has a advantage over a novicce player it should be perked.

Majors · « **Reply #50 on:** February 24, 2003, 09:27:53 AM »

Hi Mates

The P-61 was designed specifically as a night fighter. Unless we are going to have night operation, with a radar operator, they will not be of much use.

The radar operator guided the pilot to the target. AH going to model this? Will be fun. Germans used Me410 at night. And Mossie and Beaufghter both had night versions.

However, the P-61 will just become another fat target in the daylight.

If they are going to model any more multi engine aircraft should bring out the B-25 and B-24. Two of the most common bombers used in WWII.

My two cents worth

Cheers

Majors
Oldest Yank in the RAF
Not in squad at the moment

Gorf · « **Reply #51 on:** February 24, 2003, 01:56:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Stickman
Not fantasy numbers at all, there is plenty of test data to back it up. And yes, the P61, for what it was built for, was a good aircraft, but certainly not the equal, or even a close runner up, to the P38L in it's final incarnation.

Incidentally, there was more than 1 variant of the 38L. The 1600HP version (actually basically the same P38, but not given the Ok to run at a higher supercharger boost setting) had performance numbers slightly lower, 425 MPH@25,000, max ROC of 4100 FPM to 5k with a climb to 20K of 5 min, etc. All in all, still far superior to the P61.

You might also be interested in knowing, the 38L was equipped with a tail warning radar system.

That is nice and wonderul in all BUT, the P-61 was never ment to compete with other fighters in dog fights, turn n burn,, whatever you want to call it. It was ment to do ONE thing and that was ment to deal with NIGHT. It did this very well, more so then any other US aircraft. It had a higher survivablity then the P38, it had far more FirePower and it could out turn the P38L, even in its final version of the L. It could also handle Dive better then the P38L could also. HOWEVER, like I said, the P61 was not a dogfighter as was the P38L.

The two planes had TWO different purposes in Life. THe two were very effective at what they were designed for.

FInal notes.. the tail warning radar system used back then was not that effective.
ALso, the P61 was used for day mission, JABO, and could carry more ord then the P38 could. Was a more stable platform for dive bombing.

P38 was a great plane, I dont think AH models it right but then again, I never have flown a P38 in real life so I am just happy we got one to fly!

Gorf · « **Reply #52 on:** February 24, 2003, 02:03:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Majors
Hi Mates

The P-61 was designed specifically as a night fighter. Unless we are going to have night operation, with a radar operator, they will not be of much use.

The radar operator guided the pilot to the target. AH going to model this? Will be fun. Germans used Me410 at night. And Mossie and Beaufghter both had night versions.

However, the P-61 will just become another fat target in the daylight.

If they are going to model any more multi engine aircraft should bring out the B-25 and B-24. Two of the most common bombers used in WWII.

My two cents worth

I think the way around this is to either have a little POP up window that would show what the Radarman would see... OR.. the range at witch one can see a con be increased. Example.. right now at a range of 6 you can tell if it is a enemy, with the nightfigher.. make it 8 or 9.

During the Day it was not a sitting duck. If it hangs out with the bottom feeders YES but up high I think it could hold its own.

It would also make a excellent JABO.. think about it. 4000hp.. 4000lb of bombs.. and rockets.. 4x50s... 4x20s (500rnds apiece). No other fighter I can think off can bring that much fire power and still move fast. Also survivablitly up the wazzuu.

My 2 rubles worth

Cheers

Majors
Oldest Yank in the RAF
Not in squad at the moment

CavemanJ · « **Reply #53 on:** February 24, 2003, 02:25:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fridaddy
Its not the sword
Its the Swordsman

To a point.
The P-61 was a attacker and a nightfighter. As there is no nightfighting (other than VFR) than the P-61 inst a problem. But if the P-61 has a advantage over a novicce player it should be perked.

You can't be serious. If you are you'd better start a campain to perk every damn kite in the game, with the possible exception of the 202. Anyone who's been flyin since the beta tours is gonna have a helluva advantage over a novice player in any kite they fly.

Jag34 · « **Reply #54 on:** February 24, 2003, 09:18:00 PM »

About the P-61 vs the Mosquito. The P-61 comes out on top.
This is coming from the Book "P-61 Black Widow in Action" Squadron/Signal Publications pg 10. And I quote

"There were a number of high echelon Army Officials that wanted to scrap the P-61 program and replace it with the deHavilland Mosquito night-fighters. The Mosquito had been proven in combat by both the RAF and USAAC crews and many felt that it was a superior aircraft to the P-61. American P-61 crews that already were flying the aircraft became upset and vocal about this possibility and some threatened to turn in their wings. As a result, an improvised flyoff was held on 5 July 1944 between a 422nd NFS P-61A and a Mosquito Mk 17 of No 125 Squadron, RAF.

The 422nd NFS official unit history recorded the results: On the 5th, the long awaited test with a Mosquito (Mark 17) was laid on at 1600 local time. Squadron Leader Barnweel of 125 Squadron and his R/O flew the Mossie while LT Donald Doyle and F/O Norman Williams flew the Widow. The P-61 more than exceeded even our wildest hopes, being faster at 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 feet; it out-turned the Mossie at every altitude and by a big margin; and far surpassed the Mossie in rate of climb. We could go faster and slower up or down, faster than the pride of the British--- it was a most enjoyable afternoon!"

So Bring on the P-61B Black Widow.

Jag34, Tiger Squadron

Armor: King of the Battlefield!!!

TG12, had to put that last part in.