Author Topic: Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D  (Read 2484 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2003, 07:15:10 PM »
No sa  'massa sa was not bout slavery t'all.

Offline X2Lee

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2003, 07:52:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No sa  'massa sa was not bout slavery t'all.


“It is not humanity that influences you… it is that you may have a majority in the Congress of the United States and convert the Government into an engine of Northern aggrandizement… you want by an unjust system of legislation to promote the industry of the United States at the expense of the people of the South.”



Slavery would have faded away within 10 or 15 years without
the civil war...
It was about money and control.
Get a grip.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2003, 08:26:46 PM »
Are you saying that all the most powerful and influential souterners who made such a fuss about extending slavery to the newly acquried western territories and to kansas were convinced that slavery only had 10 to 15 years past 1860?

And again if there was no slavery motivation in secession and it was purely about federal agression and supression why didnt states like pennsylvania or massachusets or new york secede from the union as well - surely their states rights were violated by the federal goliath?


Nobody here has given a reason for the south to secede that did not find a root in slavery.

STATES RIGHTS ARGUMENT:  The right to slavery...

ECONOMIC DIFFERENCES ARGUMENT: Rooted in south's slave agriculture....

TARIFF INJUSTICE ARGUMENT: Largely same as above...

FEDERAL OPRESSION ARGUMENT: Rooted in western areas slavery dispute...

What other reason is there?


It always comes down to slavery to a great extent, that was they key difference between north and south, be it in economics or politics.

Offline midnight Target

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2003, 08:40:20 PM »
I can't believe I'm on Grun's side on this one. :)

X2lee, go read the Crittenden Compromise, and the platform of the Alabama Democracy. Slavery Slavery Slavery..

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2003, 08:49:28 PM »
Why are you suprised?

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2003, 08:52:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why are you suprised?


Because you're a right wing reactionary, leather panty wearing, sheet toting, Limbaugh wannabe.....

;)

Other than that I don't have a clue why we agree. :D

Offline Toad

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2003, 09:10:28 PM »
Gettin' busy here.

Can we agree that the Dred Scott decision was the fork in the road that eventually led to the Civil War?

Now, you'll say that proves it was about slavery.

I'll say you are absolutely wrong.

The summary:

Quote
Supreme Court. In Scott v. Sanford the Court states that Scott should remain a slave, that as a slave he is not a citizen of the U.S. and thus not eligible to bring suit in a federal court, and that as a slave he is personal property and thus has never been free.
 
The court further declares unconstitutional the provision in the Missouri Compromise that permitted Congress to prohibit slavery in the territories.

In fact, the compromise is already under assault as a coalition of political leaders—some slaveholders, others westerners who resent the federal government's ability to dictate the terms of statehood—claim that territorial residents should be able to determine on what terms they enter the union.

The decision in Scott v. Sanford greatly alarms the antislavery movement and intensifies the growing division of opinion within the United State. The newly-formed Republican Party, which opposes the expansion of slavery, vigorously criticizes the decision and the court.



Question of slavery? No. Question of law. The Southerners "won" this one, no matter how morally reprehensible their support of slavery.

Nonetheless, despite their "win" their Constitutional "rights" as slaveholders were continually ignored and the laws that support them were unenforced.

This, IMO, is what drove sucession. It was the failure of the rule of law. The Southerners were well educated men. Many of the Founders had Southern backgrounds. They knew what their ancestors had put into the Constitution and they knew their "rights" were being denied.

Now, you can "shoot the messenger" but look at it from the other side:

Had the Constitutional guarantees provided for slavery been enforced, would their have been sucession and Civil War? (And those guarantees were there, were validated in the Supreme Court and were all the Southerners were asking for.)

Highly unlikely.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2003, 09:10:49 PM »
What would give you that impression? IIRC I dont think I ever heard or watched a single limbough program...

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2003, 09:13:07 PM »
A law matter dealing with slavery....  Its like saying the holocaust of WW2 was not about exterminating jews but about laws, laws like the enabling act,  that gave hitler the absolute power to commit such crimes.


And why were the laws not enforced? Maybe because many people found slavery abhorrent and voiced their opinions. Wouldnt that clash with your earlier general argument that the south had no cause to think slavery was passe or unacceptable?

And by briniging up the scott case and its mention of the 1850 compromise we again see another exmple of the states rights and federal goliath argument framed with the issue of expansion and persitance of slavery.

So far you pretty much cannot bring up support for secession that is not linked to slavery.

Ask yourself why does your example, which you state proves it wasnt about slavery hinge on a legal case centered on slavery?

« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 09:19:41 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Toad

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2003, 09:40:51 PM »
Nah, Grun you are merely overlooking the true cause here. Constitutionally, the South had every right to own slaves. Their rights were being denied. That's what caused secession. Not slavery per se... the denial of Constitutional rights.

Beyond that, you in your mono-vision fail to even consider the other grievances, like tariffs, that the South had. Tariffs were unrelated to the slave issue. Your insistance that they were ignores the fact that the South had little in the way of natural resources and little in the way of manufacturing capability as a result.

You want to pick one thing and focus on that to the exclusion of all others.

I'm not buying it; it's not that simple. The evidence is out there if you'll trouble yourself to read other views.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2003, 09:50:15 PM »
Lets look at Tarifss.

Q: Why did the south import so many foreign goods?
A: Because their economy was based on slave agriculture and they had little manufacturing of their own.


Q: Why did the south have so much business with foreign markets and how could they pay for all those high tarif froeign goods and complain about the tariffs in the first place?
A: Cotton, grown, picked, and processed by slaves and sold to foreigers.


Q: What comprised some 60% of all US (north and south) exports for the period?
A: Cotton, slavery cotton.

Q: Who's fault was the high tariffs after 1828?
A: The south, tariff of abominationatos was their idea and it backfired on them splendidly.


I find it strange how you characterize my argument as "mono"  in fact I agree there were many causes but they were mainly rooted in the basic difference between north and south - the role slavery played in their world.

And again you say it wasnt about slavery, well why isnt a legal/constitutional dispute centered on slavery considered about slavery?

Do you think they would have seceded based on those grounds if there was no dispute about slavery?

You cant sererate them toad. So far your every example of of non-slave secession issues has centered on slavery.

Do you really expect people to accept your argument about the constitutionality of slavery to to not be considered a secesiision issue centered on slavery?

 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 09:55:52 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2003, 10:02:14 PM »
BTW since we have all the good confederates here any of ya'll got a good dixie mp3? I'd like a snappy instrumental brass one like you would hear in civil war movie when the rebs are marching off to war.

Offline Toad

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2003, 11:21:53 PM »
Actually, I think they'd have seceeded over the tariff issue eventually, if unresolved.

You see it perhaps as a Constitutional issue brought on by slavery.

I see it as a Constitutional issue, one example of which is slavery.

Be that as it may, I find I can respect Lee, particularly after reading his own writing on his reasons for resignation from the Union Army.

That's not something I am personally capable of doing with the men that conquered for the 3rd Reich.

But, you and I aren't going to agree on it... ever....  so there you go.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2003, 11:22:40 PM »
.. and no, I don't have "Dixie" nor do I have any Confederate flags.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Leslie

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2003, 01:27:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
.. and no, I don't have "Dixie" nor do I have any Confederate flags.


I could have gone all day without hearing that Toad.  You need to get with the business my friend.  What are you, a commie or something?:)



Les