Author Topic: Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D  (Read 2426 times)

Offline Toad

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2003, 05:37:55 PM »
What did the Confederate states find so onerous in the US Constitution that they felt they had to change it?


:p
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2003, 05:45:55 PM »
Toad tell me what the south was exporting?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2003, 05:55:29 PM »
Primarily agricultural products.

Now, did you read the Constitution?

You have to answer, or I'll keep posting the same question.

A few questions for you:

During the US Slave Trade, what were the two primary home ports of slave ships?

At the outbreak of the Civil War, what percent of the Southern population were slaveholders?

The money generated by what prior industry funded much of the North's subsequent industrialization?

Like your questions, though, the questions themselves and the answers to them have nothing to do with the primary cause of the Civil War.

However, if you bother to read the Confederate Constitution, the changes tell you EXACTLY what areas caused the problem.

And, it's about the oldest reason for war around.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2003, 05:58:26 PM »
Quote
Northern States, on entering into the Federal Compact, pledged themselves to surrender such fugitives; and it is in disregard of their constitutional obligations that they have passed laws which even tend to hinder or inhibit the fulfillment of that obligation. They have violated their plighted faith. What ought we to do in view of this? That is the question. What is to be done? By the law of nations, you would have a right to demand the carrying out of this article of agreement, and I do not see that it should be otherwise with respect to the States of this Union; and in case it be not done, we would, by these principles, have the right to commit acts of reprisal on these faithless governments, and seize upon their property, or that of their citizens, wherever found. The States of this Union stand upon the same footing with foreign nations in this respect.


A statement during the debate for secession in the Georgia legislature.

Toad -  You keep trying to prove that the Southern States were rightiously wrapped in the Constitution. They were! The Constitution agreed with all of their points of protest. But the above quote points up the gist of the problem. Northern States had chosen to ignore or to pass laws that were in direct contravention of the Fugitive Slave Act. These laws were illegal as hell. But they were also Moral as hell. There were also powerful factions in the North that wanted to ensure that new States did not allow slavery. Also essentially illegal, but moral as hell. So you can argue that the South had the rule of law in their favor and be correct, yet the real problem had everything to do with the ownership of human beings.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2003, 06:12:17 PM »
MT, there's two ways of looking at it and perhaps I haven't explained that as well I might.

Slavery was obviously AN issue. I don't see it as THE issue.

The crux, to me, was that the Southerners would no longer tolerate deprivation of their Constitutional rights. That's THE issue.

I acknowledge that slavery was ONE of the factors that brought the "Constitutional rights" issue to the point of secession.

I'm sorry but I don't see slavery as the ONE thing that led to secession.

The ONE thing was deprivation of Constitutional rights.

The Confederate Constitution highlights the areas where the Southerners felt the US Constitution need amending to provide the protection intended by the founders for the indvidual states. Notice that they essentially didn't change the Constitution with respect to slavery. But there are OTHER areas that clearly concerned them and the tariff situation is one of them.

So, we're not going to agree. You and Grun and assign the whole secession issue to slavery alone. Fine. Some scholars have done that.

There are others that take a wider view and include other important factors.

I still respect Lee. I don't respect the Nazis.

Lee said he wouldn't draw his sword unless Virginia, his sovereign home state, was invaded.

Galland went off to Spain and later the rest of Europe as an invader.

Big difference.

Was Galland a great stick? Yep. Do I admire him? Nope.

There... there's some more wood on the fire! ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2003, 06:37:34 PM »
Funny, I agree with you completely regarding Lee and Galland.

Offline Fridaddy

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« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2003, 08:26:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-
I Also,  am I correct in stating that the Immancipation Proclamation released only those slaves in the southern states,  not those above the mason dixon line?


It freed slaves in those states "in rebellion against the United States"

In all other states it was up to the state goverment. Kinda ironic?

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2003, 06:21:44 AM »
Did some research on the Crittenden Compromise, and this is what I gathered from it.  Alabama was probably the most moderate state involved in the secession crisis, and could have been swayed either way concerning secesssion.

On January 7, 1861, the Secessionist govt. and legislature called for elections to a convention.  Cooperationists opposed immediate secession.  In preliminary votes, cooperationist resolutions opposing immediate secession were narrowly down by a count of 53-46.  However, on January 11, following news that Mississippi and Florida had seceeded, and that South Carolina had repelled Federal efforts to relieve Ft. Sumter, the convention adopted an ordinance of secession by a vote of 61-39.  Secession of other states proceeded after this, having a domino effect.



The U.S. Senate refused to consider Crittenden's proposal, which was an extension of the Missouri Compromise, only the Crittenden Compromise included territories all the way to the Pacific.  Six Southern Democrats in attendence refused to vote.  The vote record shows that the entire Republican party opposed consideration of Crittenden's Compromise, and this was the major reason for the compromises' failure.


A Peace Convention was called by Virginia on January 19 to avert war by finding a compromise to restore the Union.  Seven seceeding states boycotted the peace convention.  Also Arkansas, California, Oregon, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnisota did not send representatives.


The Montgomery Convention convened on the same day as the Peace Convention.  Most of the delegates were moderates and not ardent secessionists.  They rapidly put together a provisional constitution, which was adopted four days later.


Here's my source:


http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/Dilemmas/DJan16.html



Les
« Last Edit: March 02, 2003, 06:28:20 AM by Leslie »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2003, 10:15:07 AM »
Thanks toad... I had never really read the confederate constitution.   I like it a lot.   We would be well served by it.
lazs

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2003, 10:20:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

During the US Slave Trade, what were the two primary home ports of slave ships?




And, it's about the oldest reason for war around.


Its so amazing that history has been rewritten
"the civil war was fought over slaves"
The northern aggressors  didnt give a hoot about the slaves.
They wanted control over the south.

They still pass unconstitutional laws to this day.
They had no right to do what they did.

It still burns my arse hot when I think of Atlanta...

Offline Cobra

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Grun & Mark AT...... Confederates :D
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2003, 10:21:19 AM »
Hehe...All I know is that as a Kansas Resident who works in Missouri, I watch my back :)

I've got guys working for me that still wear Quantrail T-Shirts! :eek:  (j/king on the watch the back thing, but NOT on the Quantrail thing!)

Those guys still hold a grudge from the "Bloody Kansas" days.

Cobra

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2003, 10:23:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fridaddy
It freed slaves in those states "in rebellion against the United States"

In all other states it was up to the state goverment. Kinda ironic?


Not ironic, hypocritical is the word.

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2003, 10:29:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
A law matter dealing with slavery....  Its like saying the holocaust of WW2 was not about exterminating jews but about laws, laws like the enabling act,  that gave hitler the absolute power to commit such crimes.




No, its like saying "ww2 was fought over the jews"

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2003, 02:45:45 PM »
I'm getting in late on this topic.  Haven't read all the posts but would like to offer a few comments on some of the statements made in those I have read.

1. The Civil War had multiple causes.  When Toad states that slavery was not the major issue impelling the Southern states to the separation he is correct.  Slavery did not become the cause celebre of the Northern government until Great Britain began rattling it's sabre in 1862.  How many of you realize that the British had begun massing an army in Canada for a possible invasion of the North?  Lincoln used McClellan's victory at Antietam and the Emancipation Proclamation to place the North's war effort on a "higher moral footing" in the hopes that this would derail attempts by members of the British Parliament to intervene in the conflict.  All references to the war, prior to Antietam, by Lincoln or the press, speak of the war as a struggle to preserve the Union.  One wrap on the knuckles Grun, for sleeping during history class.

2.  The war WAS fought largely by members of the Southern yeoman class.  While some of them were slave owners, most owned only two or three, and worked beside them in the fields.  The impression held by many modern Americans that southern agricultural society was made up mainly of large plantations is erroneous.  The impression left by "Gone With the Wind" is a crock.  Two thirds of all southern farmers did NOT own slaves.  When they fought, they fought to expel invading armies from their home states and to protect their farms against the depredations of those armies.

3.  MT, you are mistaken to believe that technology would not have eliminated slavery.  It would not have happened quickly, but it would definitely have happened.  The use of manual labor to hoe and pick cotton persisted until my lifetime.  The cotton picker eliminated that need completely about 30 years ago, which was about the last time I remember seeing "pore fokes" picking cotton by hand in the fields.  However, slavery would not have persisted that long.  Competition for foreign markets, principally by Egypt and India, drove a stake through the heart of the Southern cotton economy during the late 1800s.  Slavery would "probably" have died a natural death by the year 1900.

4.  Grunherz, the state of South Carolina seriously considered seceding from Union because of the tariff as early as 1828.  The central argument then, as it was in 1860, was the issue of "state's rights."  While slavery, and its spread into the western territories purchased from France and seized from Mexico, remained a volatile issue, it was the heavy taxation of imports by the tariff that the Southern states felt were the greatest threat to their economic way of life.  Another rap on the knuckles for sleeping during history class.

5.  MT, if stating that slavery was not the main cause of the Civil War is "revisionist history" then what are we to say about the claim that "the tariff was not a major contributing factor to the war."  One rap on the knuckles for falling hook, line, and sinker for the myth of the "Great Crusade."

Regards, Shuckins

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2003, 08:54:04 AM »
a modern example of techno eliminating "slavery" is farm workers.   Anyone recall the tomato picking/sorting machines?   they had 20 illegals on each side of running board like extensions of what was basicly, a 40 foot conveyor belt.   the illegals (well, mostly illegals) would sort the tomatoes as they went by.. red or green... we were told that we couldn't get rid of this form of modern slavery since tomatoes would go to 40 bucks apiece or so if we paid decent wages and didn't turn a blind eye to illegals.

I said... good... let the friggin tomatoes go to 100 bucks a piece...  It will get fixed then.

The mexicans themselves brought it to a head... they unionized and people strengthened the border patrol.   tomatoes went up maybe double maybe a little worse for a SHORT while.

Someone put a lazer on the sorter.  It could tell red from green.  We are still left with the legacy tho... If you watch a sorter in the field you will see a long machine with running boards the entire length of both sides but.... it will have only 3-6 people on it.
lazs