Author Topic: HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?  (Read 2889 times)

Mr. T

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2001, 11:42:00 AM »
And that's what I've been saying all along. We need at the very least in flight bar radar. You can look a few posts up by me and see where I stated that.

bar radar works well for me, those nice little arrows in WB1.xx were enough so bar radar is enough for me... but if I got no form of radar so I can *DIRECT MYSELF* to a fight. Then ferget it.
-SW

Offline hblair

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2001, 11:43:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. T:

Mmmmkay...

Lets put this more into perspective...
Person just logging in: Hey guys what's going on at field xx?
...
...
...
...
...
...
Person just logged in, been here for 3 minutes: Hello?
Person that just logged in thinks to himself "To hell with this" and goes out on his own.
Person just logged in? <click, click> Looks at radar, sees where he wants to go, Takes off.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. T:
Really... if you think I'm bad on open comms right now... you'll find out how irrate I can really become when no one wants to clue me in as to where I am going and what I'm going to run into.
-SW

I never notice you on the radio much in the arena, just here on the BBS. If you get real bad on open comms, I guess most people will just squelch you?


Mr. T

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2001, 11:55:00 AM »
I was using that just logged in thing as an example as it is CURRENTLY. CURRENTLY when you log in and SEE a large green bar in a sector you will ASK what's going on there and if they need help.

No replies.

As it is right now, I have a hard enough time trying to find out what a particular field needs that's under heavy CAP... you think that will change when you enforce this "tower only" radar? Nope.

When I'm 10 minutes into a flight and find out my intended destination has nothing but, to uses lazs' example, ground vehicles and need a new vector... and I get no response as to where the fight has moved or anything you want me to spend another 10 minutes going back to land just to look at radar again because my "country mates" don't FEEL like telling me anything?

All of the arguments for doing just in tower radar are some of the weakest points.. don't bother to think about the guys that don't want to up in some feeble Luftwaffe plane to get up to 30K then patrol around for an hour just to bounce one unlucky newbie.

yeah man, that sounds like fun.... Hey wait I thought this game was about air COMBAT....
-SW
ps: 90people in the arena.. MOSTLY pilots.. 0 people in the arena are ground controllers... THAT's what the radar is... GROUND CONTROLLERS.. no one pays 30$/mo to sit in the tower and tell you where to go.

Offline AKDejaVu

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2001, 11:58:00 AM »
 
Quote
The real pity of the situation is that most (correct me if I'm wrong) of the supporters of the current settings had not tried other options, still they do not want to give it even a try.

A truly flawed assumption.  Those arguing against it have just as much experience as those arguing for it.

 
Quote
It does not, however, tell us whether the majority of the players in the main arena would prefer in-flight radar available as an option in the game or not.

Majority or not isn't really the issue.  Its how many would leave.. what kind of an impact it would have.  Do you really know?  How would it impact you?  How would it impact HTC?  How appealing would this be to new customers?

 
Quote
If the other countries have radar available, and you don't, you are at an obvious disadvantage, most people realize this.

I have not seen this be a factor for people who have lost dar.  The key point is that they don't have dar and don't know what's coming.  I can't say I've ever heard "But they can see us and we can't see them!" when our dar went down.  Fairness is not the issue.  Its just that people realize how important dar is to them AFTER they loose it... seldomely before.  This thread seems to ignore that to the Nth degree.

-----------

To be honest, I fail to see the need for the changes.  What is it about the current setup that is made virtually impossible due to in-flight dar?  Is it that an enemy can see you in clouds when he shouldn't be able to?  Is it that an enemy can see you aproaching his base when he shouldn't be able to?  What?

We don't have patrols at altitude to intecept aircraft.  Nobody wants to spend hours flying "just in case".  We only have a system that gives you an indication something is coming, and one that tells you something is there.  That is all.  Anyone with 15k of alt is not affected by dot dar early warning.  Dot dar can also be shut off with 1 bomb.

The sector bars are another issue and I feel there is room for adjustment.  I believe HTC has already said they'd be willing to evaluate some kind of minimum altitude bar-dar indication.  This would make things just a tad more compliant to NOE flying.  I also think something should be done in regards to way behind enemy lines bar-dar... but this thread is about elimination.. not modification.

If you think having dar in the tower would be sufficient... think about how many times (even with dar available everywhere) you hear people calling out a base being under attack... I'm not talking 20 people coming in... I'm talking 1 buff over it precision bombing all the ack.  I seldomely hear this at all.  I spent 3 hours last night defending against this very tactic.. with minimal (never more than 2 other pilots) helping as no knits hit as many as 4 or 5 bases at a time from an island base... no more than 1 pilot at any base.

Another downside to this is that it encourages someone to stay in the tower.  This is a bad thing in my oppinion as pilots should be motivated to get into the air/vehicles... not sit in the tower looking at the map.

The suggestion just doesn't seem very well thought out.

AKDejaVu

Offline Pepe

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2001, 12:15:00 PM »
Deja,

I made the statement because I did not see any old Warbirder that I know defending the current setup. I have no evidence (thus the correct me if I am wrong sentence) in any sense. I will stand corrected if that evidence shows.

On the radar issue, let's define Sector counters on one side, and Dot Radar on the other.

On Sector Counters, since Htc. has taken a point at this, I will wait to see the changes made.

Dot Radar: The need not only arises from the two points that you bring. These are fine examples of reasons why you should get rid of them, but there are others, for instance, it is sci-fi by WWII standards (admitted weak point) and gives you artificial SA, and allows you to locate and figure out effortlessly what are the fight conditions (number and proximity of friendlies and enemas) around you. In fact, it's got even continuous range adjustment. IMO, SA is easy enough with the current icon implementation.

You point something interesting when you mention the lack of help when a base is under attack. If this is the way, I can't see how the lack of in-flight radar woud worsen this.

Your last point is shortsighted. You have to think in the tower as another vehicle. Its waeapon would be the radar. So sitting in the tower looking at the radar would be like manning the big guns on the CC, altho big guns are less effective  

Heheheh, I won't use my last sentence like you do, so....Cheers,  

Pepe.

Offline rosco-

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »
 How about we try it and see?   Then the 2 or 3 of you can tell the rest of us how wrong we all are and the fact that it works in WB's and DOA is a fluke  


Offline Scootter

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #126 on: May 09, 2001, 12:24:00 PM »
I think some sort of HA is in the works and that will be the place to try this out. I think that you can add to many changes at once and really muck up the works. This would be a BIG change and with all the new things (with a bug or three)on the way it may be to much. We are still a growing community and need to keep the majorty happy (most do not read the boards)as HT gets numbers when the numbers get larger and we get other areinas we will see more game play changes.
I can go both ways on this issue but am woried by to many changes at the same time.

Just my $.02

tail winds all  
Scoot out

Mr. T

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2001, 12:29:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by rosco-:
How about we try it and see?   Then the 2 or 3 of you can tell the rest of us how wrong we all are and the fact that it works in WB's and DOA is a fluke  


Hmmmmm it works there you say?
Well I guess that shuts me up.....

but wait! Go see how many fields per country there are, and fly between each field and figure out the distances in WB and DOA. Then compare that against the size of the AH map.

Then we'll be gettin' somewhere...

I hear you coming hblair "but the terrain editor"... but lets do it against terrains that are ALREADY in the rotation and are the ONLY ones being used.
-SW

Offline hblair

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. T:
As it is right now, I have a hard enough time trying to find out what a particular field needs that's under heavy CAP... you think that will change when you enforce this "tower only" radar? Nope.

How would any change in radar coverage affect figuring out what targets at a field need bombing? You do know about the strat button?

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. T:
When I'm 10 minutes into a flight and find out my intended destination has nothing but, to uses lazs' example, ground vehicles and need a new vector... and I get no response as to where the fight has moved or anything you want me to spend another 10 minutes going back to land just to look at radar again because my "country mates" don't FEEL like telling me anything?

Why wouldn't your countrymen tell you anything? I'm usually on US nights, I'll give you vectors ol buddy.  

 
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. T:
yeah man, that sounds like fun.... Hey wait I thought this game was about air COMBAT....
-SW.[/B]

Do you mean air combat as in a Real air combat simulation? If so, you just made a good arguement for no radar in-flight. Thanks. You ever read any WWII air combat books? If so, then you know that most WWII fighter pilots were shot down by planes they did not see. Even with the icons the way they are, if the radar wasn't so easy, we could simulate this style of combat. You would actually have to look back and check your six, intsead of get an AWACS report by pressing esc.


[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-09-2001).]

Offline Skybax

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2001, 01:16:00 PM »
"but wait! Go see how many fields per country there are, and fly between each field and figure out the distances in WB and DOA. Then compare that against the size of the AH map.

Then we'll be gettin' somewhere..."


That was already addressed eariler in the thread.


Offline hblair

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2001, 01:53:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I have not seen this be a factor for people who have lost dar.  The key point is that they don't have dar and don't know what's coming.  I can't say I've ever heard "But they can see us and we can't see them!" when our dar went down.  Fairness is not the issue.  Its just that people realize how important dar is to them AFTER they loose it... seldomely before.  This thread seems to ignore that to the Nth degree.

Deja, Thats like giving one side P51 Mustangs and the other side ME109f4, and when the side with the 109f4's start logging off, we all declare "Nobody likes 109F4's, there's the proof, The side with the 109's are logging off." Ignoring the fact that they are at a disadvantage and know it. Come on man.

If having radar is the default setting in the arena, and your country loses it, knowing the other side has it, that has no affect on their attitudes?

 
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:


We don't have patrols at altitude to intecept aircraft.  Nobody wants to spend hours flying "just in case".  We only have a system that gives you an indication something is coming, and one that tells you something is there.  That is all.  Anyone with 15k of alt is not affected by dot dar early warning.  Dot dar can also be shut off with 1 bomb.

Yeah, and anybody who knows diddly squat about the game knows that puts out a big column of smoke. You do know there are guys who jump around the towers checking stuff like that? They see their dar smoking, they roll ostwinds, simple as that. And even if their dar is down, the sector bars work no matter your altitude.

 
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The sector bars are another issue and I feel there is room for adjustment.  I believe HTC has already said they'd be willing to evaluate some kind of minimum altitude bar-dar indication.  This would make things just a tad more compliant to NOE flying.  I also think something should be done in regards to way behind enemy lines bar-dar... but this thread is about elimination.. not modification.

If I had the choice between staying the same and modification, I'd take some kinda modification.

 
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
If you think having dar in the tower would be sufficient... think about how many times (even with dar available everywhere) you hear people calling out a base being under attack... I'm not talking 20 people coming in... I'm talking 1 buff over it precision bombing all the ack.  I seldomely hear this at all.  I spent 3 hours last night defending against this very tactic.. with minimal (never more than 2 other pilots) helping as no knits hit as many as 4 or 5 bases at a time from an island base... no more than 1 pilot at any base.

Another downside to this is that it encourages someone to stay in the tower.  This is a bad thing in my oppinion as pilots should be motivated to get into the air/vehicles... not sit in the tower looking at the map.

The suggestion just doesn't seem very well thought out.

I think HT and pyro did a great job thinking it out in WB's. It works there. I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguement, I actually spent 2 years over there. I've seen it. It worked. Most people who used it liked it. Read the responses here.

Offline Hooligan

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2001, 02:09:00 PM »
hblair:

This "follow me I can always find a good fight" stuff is not very persuasive.  On a decent night in WB I could shoot down 10 or 15 enemy AC with no sweat.  Finding targets was not typically a problem.

Last night I got about 4 kills and RTB'd 3 times because I was bingo fuel after starting with full fuel and finding no fights.  You are essentially telling us to trust you in preference to our own senses and experience.

Taking inflight DAR away will only increase the boredom that currently aflicts the AH arenas.

Hooligan

lazs

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2001, 02:41:00 PM »
sheesh... first some guys tell me I'm full of it and then spend two or three posts proving my point.

hblair... you don't get any more kills per hour than i do on average yet you consider it easy to find a decent (fairly large and fairly even) fite and i consider it near impossible at times.  different strokes i guess but i bet there are as many of my opinion as there are of yours.

I don't know how many would leave if dar were shut down.   I know some log off.   I have never heard anyone say they were logging because the dar came back up!

blair... we are tying to simulate air combat IMO.  not the hours or months or whatever it takes to get into air combat.  This game is about fun not about simulating the boring part.   You wouldn't even read a book on air combat if 99% of it were about the noise the engine made and 1% of it was describing a fite.

deja... "mission"?  most of what I seen was huge forces hitting a base and wiping out it's ability to defend itself allmost immediately.   this may be the "smart" thing to do but it is in no way fun for me and others.   If this is a "mission" then yes, it is the "M" word IMO... I heard people bragging about taking down fighter hangers at undefended fields.   I actualy like it when we or the other side is down to fewer fields because it concentrates the fite.   I couldn't care even a tiny bit who "wins" the war.   I care who wins the engagement and how intense it was.  the bigger and fairer the better.   Gangbanging is a distant second and being gangbanged falls far behind second.

I would also say that most people hate to engage buffs and would much rather have a real fite.  I think seeing a lone buff laser bombing a couple of buildings and putting an end to a dozen guys efforts and fun is an embarassment.   I would go a step further.  The buffs in the game are an embarassment and anything besides ignoring them or shooting their chutes is simply encouraging em.  That would include the "m" word.
lazs

Offline hblair

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2001, 02:55:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hooligan:
hblair:

This "follow me I can always find a good fight" stuff is not very persuasive.  On a decent night in WB I could shoot down 10 or 15 enemy AC with no sweat.  Finding targets was not typically a problem.

Last night I got about 4 kills and RTB'd 3 times because I was bingo fuel after starting with full fuel and finding no fights.  You are essentially telling us to trust you in preference to our own senses and experience.

Taking inflight DAR away will only increase the boredom that currently aflicts the AH arenas.

Hooligan

I was on last night trying to take fields, flew some bomber sorties and attack sorties, fighters were all over me. What planet are you guys from?

Open your clipboard, fly to the red. Got it? How hard can it be? I noticed drex with an 8 kill sortie, is he not in your squad? Get some tips from him I guess. Apparently he's got it figured out.

This old tired "There's no fights here!" when there's red all around is more than a little far fetched.

You and lazs are the only two I ever hear that from. Why is that?


Offline Wlfgng

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HTC, for 1.07, can you please, PLEASE remove the inflight Radar?
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2001, 02:58:00 PM »
sigh....      

I think we all know where we stand by now.

Let's just hope AH gives it a shot and lets the users (including those that don't post here) try it out.

inflight bar-dar only...
dot-dar only in tower.