Yanks; sometimes I wonder...

[Hortlund]

Blitz for crying out loud, stop quoting the entire damn post just to say a word in the end.

Just say "Rude, I disagree" instead of quoting a wall of text.

[Ping]

Originally posted by straffo
We all know what scumbag Saddam is ... our disagreement is about the way to get ride of him and the impact on this region.

 Pretty much sums up my view.

[slimm50]

Quote from 10Bears: "b. Has already demonstrated that when the spirit moves him he WILL invade his neighboring sovereign states

No. Last 12 years he’s been contained."

He hasn't been "contained", so much as been allowed to rearm. Not the popsicle Clinton administration nor the UN would enforce the UN's restrictions that's why were in th mess we're in now. 11 years of appeasement.     IMHO.

[Toad]

Nash, there is literally no post I could make here that would convince anyone. It would simply be dismissed. As you've just done.

I have faith in the people I worked with; I believe their assessment without having to be shown a bag of anthrax with Saddams picture, personal signature and fingerprints all over the bag.

If I had such a bag and presented it, people would say "anyone can get his picture, anyone could fake his signature and there's no proof those are his fingerprints".

As I said, I'm totally convinced.

I can't convince the world, but I'll be glad to extend the offer of the same wager that I offered to 10Bears to you.

[Toad]

Hermann Goering, Hitler's #2 man, before being sentenced to death at the Nuremberg trials.

[blitz]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Blitz for crying out loud, stop quoting the entire damn post just to say a word in the end.

Just say "Rude, I disagree" instead of quoting a wall of text.

Why ???? Rudes post is well worth reading it twice a day.


Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous

[10Bears]

Hang on Toad I’ll get to you in a minute.

Rude, my redneck credentials should be in order here.. I worked on a horse/cattle ranch for 5 years, then got hired by the phone company as a frame maintainer. Later became a plumber’s apprentice, licensed plumber, and finally plumber contractor for new instillation so please don’t write me off as some wild eyed hippy. OK?

where were you and your wisdoms when Clinton showered bagdad with cruise missles....sent US troops to Bosnia without the UN's blessing...

We’ll get into this in another thread, suffice to say Bush’s predecessor had all kinds of international support.

As to your US occupation of the middle east theory....if that is fact as you claim, why didn't we stay in 91 when our troops were there and in position to stay....maybe even take over the oil....ya know were only in this for the oil.

This is an easy spin point to refute. I hear this silly strawman a lot.  The U.N. mandate back then did not call for invasion of Iraq. As is all laid out in Geo Bush Sr’s book. In fact the whole thing starting back on the first day of the Kuwait invasion as a U.N. project. Part of the U.N.’s mission is to STOP aggression.

you feel your unalienable right to spout your tripe is what it's all about....this crap makes me sick to my stomach.

Interesting string of words there Rude coming from an American.. I on the other hand would fight to the death to allow you to spout your tripe..

How do you, 10Bears, know so much about what is the truth and what isn't? You have some direct line to the truth regarding these issues? How are you such a learned individual regarding geopolitical truth and fact?

There’s a couple of things you can do here. First, read everything. Check who the author is, read carefully the articles be suspect if they use unnamed sources.. ie reports indicate that.. according to officials... papers are reporting that.. Avoid partisan publications as much as possible both left or right. Usually the initial reports are the most correct as they haven’t had time to create the spin. Finally, make good use of Toad’s wonderful tool Google. I use google to whack him upside the head..

I don't think you'll hold your bitter tongue until another 3000 Americans are dead....even then, you'll find a way to blame GW.

No doubt.. you’ll find a way to blame Clinton.

Sigh..

Toad,
I don’t give a damn about Saddam’s two buckets of bug spray... there’s a much larger issue here.. I pray to God that you look a little closer into this.. As I said last year, your going to stir up a billion diddlyin’ Muslims all over the world. Not to mention every other wackjob.. look at Kim Jong and his long dong.. ah toejam!.. I was reading about a very respected economist this morning talking about how all this could cause a major world wide depression. I’ll get the article for you. This is the guy that predicted the current recession way back in ’99! so he’s someone to listen too.

However, I think this war is going down no matter what any of us think or do, so I'm willing to make you a wager. I believe my statement will be proven within a year of removing Saddam from power

Trouble here is that we are in disagreement. My prediction, if your willing to wager, is that the Security Council is going to vote no on the latest resolution. Cooler heads in the administration will somehow coxes Pres. Bush to back down... The spin will be what you said the other day.. that if the U.S forces had not been there.. no way would the inspectors had be let back into Iraq.

If your willing to wager that... and I win.. my favorite charity is Ronald McDonald House.. They have the lowest overhead of any charity and most of the money goes to where they say it goes. BTW, many Conservatives also support Ronald McDonald House. You would need to send me a receipt of deposit.

No, not at all. I could never lie to someone's face in that way. I'll leave that to your heros.

My hero would be Zebb Jamison... you oughta read some of his work..

[AKIron]

Originally posted by GScholz
Toad, you're willing to bet that the US will find the necessary evidence to justify an invasion AFTER invading Iraq. I find this morally questionable. The evidence should be found and presented BEFORE invading. No nation should attack another nation without being first attacked by that nation, or presenting evidence that that nation was involved in such an attack.
 

GScholz, are you then discounting all the evidence that Colin Powell presented to the UN?

[Toad]

First, just so you're not confused, I've said here many times I don't favor invading Iraq without UN sanction. Can't say it any plainer than that, nor should I need to keep repeating it.

***

I don’t give a damn about Saddam’s two buckets of bug spray...

It isn't "two buckets of bug spray" although how typical to minimize it. It's TONS of anthrax, amongst other chemical and biological weaponry.

If you'll recall what just 3 or 4 envelopes with a spoonful of anthrax in them did to the US not long ago, perhaps you'll reevaluate your minimalization of the threat. Think THAT might start another world wide depression?

Stirring up Muslims? Uh, did you notice they already are stirred up? Didn't 9/11 start this whole parade?

Kim Jong Il? His idiotic focus on building the world's 4th largest land army has brought his country nothing but poverty, starvation and misery. Now, he has to do something, anything to get more food... and obviously he's not willing to give up building weaponry. To link his problem to our problem in Iraq is a stretch. With or without Iraq in the news, Kim would be doing what he's doing right now. It's either focus his population away from their empty bellies and overfull graveyards or face internal revolution. That's why NK is doing what they're doing right now.

Were you the one arguing that all the talk of starving Koreans was government disinformation a while ago?

Tell, me, do you think a terrorist strike against the US that was equally or more successful than 9/11 would cause a world wide depression?

Well, we can make an either or bet. If the war happens, we deal with the wager I offered.

If the war doesn't happen, we deal with your wager. However, I don't really understand your wager. Are we simply betting whether the war will happen or not? In that event, I'd think two wagers are in order.

Because I am willing to bet this war will happen. And I'm also willing to bet that either Iraqi WMD will be used during the fighting or that bunkers full of the stuff will be found shortly after the fighting is over. (Of course, Scholz will tell me that the US manufactured VX artillery shells in Soviet sizes and lettered them to look like Iraqi rounds and did that with dozens of bunkers of the stuff.   Heck, you'll probably say that too.)

$45 on each? War has to begin by what date? (How long?) They're running up close to the "no fighting in the desert" season and this could be put off till Fall.

Ronald McD is fine. I'm sure they'll send you a card thanking you for my contribution and I'm sure I'll get a bill......IF you win.

If I win, you pay my SF squaddies AH bill for 6 months? I'm sure he'll get confirmation from HTC.  If, for some reason he doesn't make it back, you give the money to his children's college fund?

My hero would be Zebb Jamison... you oughta read some of his work..

I've read more than enough of his work. You posted that tripe here, remember? If that's an example of one of your heros....

[Hangtime]

git 'em Toad!

[Krusher]

Originally posted by StSanta
I've read a lot of posts now. Mostly, it boils down to this:

'Americans are true badarses when we are pissed. No one should stand in our way then, because we're pissed. You're either with us or against us. We're pissed. We keep the world free and fair and are mostly altruistic, whereas Europe is a continent full of ungrateful nations with people wearing clogs or leather, or possibly clogs made out of leather. And Europe isn't pissed like us. We saved their tulips when the Zeppelins were dropping mustard gas during WWXI on French cyborgs. F*cking Eurorutabagas are trying to stop the war on terrorism - the arrests are just a coverup. Euros love Saddam Hussein and everyone not in favour of the war are in favour of Hussein. We're pissed and irrational - therefore we are right'.

Or:

'We're the mightiest nation on earth and we have 250 different kinds of toilet paper, including really fluffy stuff. We don't need the UN and Europe with its puny economy can go to hell. UN only has one kind of toilet paper and the European economy is centered around providing arse wiping material to 'um. We don't need anyone, except the ones we do need. Europe has never supported us despite everything we've done and we'll now boycott everything not made in the US. Except the toilet paper from abroad, we'll need that. The upcoming war against Iraq is about the war on terrorism and the very fact that we don't have any evidence connecting Saddam to Al Qaeda is proof of that connection'.
 

And it boils down to this with The Europeans.  

 "But what is clear is that [he] is keenly sensitive to anything that touches his pride or self-esteem ... he has a high opinion of himself and a great contempt for others. He is quite aware of his superiority to them in certain respects; and he either disbelives in or despises the qualities in which they are superior to him. Whatever disturbs or wounds his sense of superiority irritates him at once; and in that sense he is highly competitive ... he has a spite against goodness in men ... he has a spite against it, not from any love of evil for evil's sake, but partly because it annoys his intellect as a stupidity; partly (though he hardly knows this) because it weakens his satisfaction with himself, and disturbs his faith that egoism is the right and proper thing; partly because, the world being such a fool, goodness is popular and prospers. But he, a man ten times as able ... does not greatly prosper. Somehow, for all the stupidity of these open and generous people, they get on better than [he does] ... Goodness therefore annoys him. He is always ready to scoff at it, and would like to strike at it." - From A.C. Bradley's analysis of Shakespeare's Iago.


That about sums it up

[Toad]

Well, 10Bears, do we have two wagers going? Better hurry, the first one on "war/no war" may well be answered in the near future.

Scholz, as I said, I'm not in favor of going without UN sanction. However, I think we're going anyway and when we do I think a few of the Republican Guard commanders will probably try chem/bio attacks against our troops.

Will that be enough proof for you that he didn't destroy that stuff over the last 12 years? Or will you need more proof that Powell knew what he was talking about?

[Toad]

Krusher, I'm going to save that. Applies to quite a few situations that happen in daily life. Nice!

[N1kPaz]

US just wants the UN to at least pretend they give a toejam about our security. They dont.

US WILL be the target of a nuclear attack if and when the terrorists get their toejam together. NOT EUROPE. Keeping that in mind, what do you think we have to lose? If someone nukes NYC. It will do serious damage to the US economy. We are a bit reactionary and maybe a bit paranoid, but look what WE have to lose.

I subscribe to the following:

Kill everyone on this planet that has declared himself our enemy. Either we kill them while they are small and easily disposed of, or they grow in power and numbers and kill us.

Its kill or be killed.

I prefer to kill.

zap out!

[Rude]

I gave thought to putting up all of the nice little quote thingies in an effort to convince you otherwise....would be a giant waste of my time.

Your assumption that I am not well read regarding current issues is a false one. The difference between us is I do not operate under fear...I believe that dealing with evil should be done directly and that to do otherwise is foolish and encouraging of that very same evil.

I do not view the U. N. as the director of US foreign policy, but rather as a group of ineffective, self serving and indecisive nations frought with political motivations rather than true ambitions to do what is right.

To listen to you and others ignore the past twelve years, to ignore who Saddam really is, to ignore what destructive ambitions have existed towards the United States and to act as if this is our fault in some way, saddens me.

You conveniently left out of your reply, that I admittedly stated that I could be wrong regarding Bush and that I would be the first to admit the same. My intent is not to involve myself in a pissing contest with you or anyone else.....I just have a hard time dealing with folks who operate from fear rather than substance.

When something wrong exists, to dance around it because you fear the consequences or to make excuses for the same is all to common.

Bottom line for me....for those of you who are so against this action in Iraq, it's about Bush and not about the facts. It's politically driven at it's source and you along with  those who share your views care very little about making what sacrifice is necessary to improve our worlds way of life....you would rather find that comfortable and harmless middle ground called containment.

To make it even more clear as to my stance....I believe that all of these things must come to pass....the bible tells of wars and rumors of wars, but not to fret over them. GW supposedly begins his day on his knees...if that's true, then I believe God will cause what ever he touches to prosper.