Author Topic: A point of Reason  (Read 1856 times)

Offline stegor

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A point of Reason
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2003, 03:44:45 PM »
Quote
I bet the US's chances of survival are slightly higher than Europes or Russia's if we have to face life on our own, even though it would benefit all us much more so to just get along.



US, Europe, Russia and so on,   are all living on the same planet;  the most used word now is "globalization" (I dont like it  very much though). How can a country think to face life on his own?. In this globalized word every action has a consequence on the whole world population, mainly for the economical aspect,;lets talk of reality, not utopia.
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Offline Martlet

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A point of Reason
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2003, 05:41:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SLO
Rude Rude Rude...damn you are rude:p

lets not get into name calling and such....childish wouldn't you say......take it lightly bud....just having fun.


but if as you say you are tryin to make AMENDS for past mistakes.....then please explain to me WHY Haliburton got a contract in IRAQ after 1 week of war....

explain to me why your prez. choose to ignore accusations of insider trading.....

explain to me the magic bullet theory......:D

oh please explain to me why haliburton was selling stuff to Iraq in the year 2000......

but from the above post...links I mean...was posted by me....someone said put up or shud up....so I put up....don't like it...tough....but thats the truth.

I like the way you guys CHOOSE to ignore some interesting stuff....


Every single one of your posts were Pre-sanctions.   Nice try.  Did you think noone would notice?

When are you going to put up?  The AKIron said we boycotted France from illegally dealing with Iraq.  You said the US did too.  I said prove it.

Now you gloat like you have?  How about showing some ILLEGAL dealings with Iraq.   Not UNSC approved parts sales, oil for food deals, and transfers that took place LEGALLY, and 15 years ago, not 6 months.

Offline SLO

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A point of Reason
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2003, 06:52:14 PM »
Read again please............


The 54 companies did the selling all with the authority of the Reagan and Bush administrations. They saw Iraq as a bulwark against militant Muslim extremism. The U.S. provided Saddam with deadly outlawed "cluster bombs" through a phony cover company in Chile. Of course at the same time the U.S. was supporting bin Laden in Afghanistan.

And for anyone that believes this commerce stopped, Halliburton Oil was doing over $100 million in business with Saddam in 2000. Who was the CEO of Halliburton - why Vice President Dick Cheney.

This is a war about covering up the deal made with the devil, and oil - always oil.

For CBC Commentary, I am Jim Trautman in Guelph, Ontario.




Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Every single one of your posts were Pre-sanctions.   Nice try.  Did you think noone would notice?

When are you going to put up?  The AKIron said we boycotted France from illegally dealing with Iraq.  You said the US did too.  I said prove it.

Now you gloat like you have?  How about showing some ILLEGAL dealings with Iraq.   Not UNSC approved parts sales, oil for food deals, and transfers that took place LEGALLY, and 15 years ago, not 6 months.



If 100 million is NOT doing it for you..well...it is for me

opss...I left out the WMD's.....bad I say:eek:

Offline Martlet

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A point of Reason
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2003, 06:54:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SLO
Read again please............


The 54 companies did the selling all with the authority of the Reagan and Bush administrations. They saw Iraq as a bulwark against militant Muslim extremism. The U.S. provided Saddam with deadly outlawed "cluster bombs" through a phony cover company in Chile. Of course at the same time the U.S. was supporting bin Laden in Afghanistan.

And for anyone that believes this commerce stopped, Halliburton Oil was doing over $100 million in business with Saddam in 2000. Who was the CEO of Halliburton - why Vice President Dick Cheney.

This is a war about covering up the deal made with the devil, and oil - always oil.

For CBC Commentary, I am Jim Trautman in Guelph, Ontario.




 


If 100 million is NOT doing it for you..well...it is for me

opss...I left out the WMD's.....bad I say:eek:



Ahhh, more baseless propaganda crap from the Liberal side.


Next please?

Offline Hangtime

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A point of REASON:
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2003, 06:57:10 PM »
Feb 28th 1991: UN Sanctions on Iraq, no more weapons sales, period, all other tranactions to bel cleared by UN council. Some signatories to sanctions make loud loises of support, open avenues for illeagle transfers of technology annd weapons.

Sept 12, 2001: US declares war on terror, and terror supporting states.. sends warning to world.. 'with us, or against us'. Some nations, including some notable eurpean ones, indicated they were 100% in support.. but quietly continued dealing with the devil.

Apr 10; 2003: Now we are sitting on the oil ministry files in Iraq, and MY ain't THEY interesting reading. So are the Defense Ministry files.

Apr 15; 2003: France, Germany Russia squirm. U.S. has the goods... and they know it.

Fess up, old europe.. you figured it'd be ok to just continue on sponsoring the devil. After all, america won't go to war in Iraq; it's all bluster.... but it turned out, we wern't kiddin this time. And we won't be next time; either.

With us or Against US, old europe. You don't have to go to war for us.. you don't have to put up a cent. But it would be nice if yah stopped outright any trading with terror supporting states.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

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A point of Reason
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2003, 07:14:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

Could you elaborate on this a bit please?
Who is the elected chief politician? (Im guessing Charon)
but who the he** is the bomb tossing terrorist ally?

And if you dont see any difference between Charon and Arafat you either need better glasses or a better education.
 
You simply cannot know enough about the conflict to make a statement like that, because I know you aint dumb.


would this be the guy?

He was born in 1928 and as a young man joined the Haganah, the terrorist organization of Israel in its pre-state days. In 1953 he was given command of Unit 101, whose mission is often described as that of retaliation against Arab attacks on Jewish villages. Unit 101's purpose was that of instilling terror by the infliction of idescriminate, murderous violence.

Sharon's first documented sortie in this role was in August of 1953 on the refugee camp of El-Bureig, south of Gaza. An Israeli history of the 101 unit records 50 refugees as having been killed; other sources allege 15 or 20. Major-General Vagn Bennike, the UN commander, reported that "bombs were thrown" by Sharon's men "through the windows of huts in which the refugees were sleeping and, as they fled, they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons".

In October of 1953 came the attack by Sharon's unit 101 on the Jordanian village of Qibya, whose "stain" Israel's foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett, confided to his diary "would stick to us and not be washed away for many years".  

Israeli historian Avi Shlaim describes the massacre thus: "Sharon's order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. His success in carrying out the order surpassed all expectations. The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was revealed only during the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they believed that all the inhabitants had run away and that they had no idea that anyone was hiding inside the houses."

The UN observer on the scene reached a different conclusion: "One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshhold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them." The slaughter in Qibya was described contemporaneously in a letter to the president of the United Nations Security Council dated 16 October 1953 (S/3113) from the Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of Jordan to the United States. On 14 October 1953 at 9:30 at night, he wrote, Israeli troops launched a battalion-scale attack on the village of Qibya in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (at the time the West Bank was annexed to Jordan).

According to the diplomat's account, Israeli forces had entered the village and systematically murdered all occupants of houses, using automatic weapons, grenades and incendiaries. On 14 October, the bodies of 42 Arab civilians had been recovered; several more bodies were still under the wreckage. Forty houses, the village school and a reservoir had been destroyed. Quantities of unused explosives, bearing Israel army markings in Hebrew, had been found in the village. At about 3 a.m., to cover their withdrawal, Israeli support troops had begun shelling the
neighbouring villages of Budrus and Shuqba from positions in Israel.


Like I said.. i see NO diffrence between Sharon and Arafat.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline AKIron

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A point of Reason
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2003, 07:21:40 PM »
This kinda stuff (what you posted) don't count SLO. Not because the US may have unwittingly provided something in violation of UN resolution but because nothing you posted specifically cited  a US company as having done so.

However, I only scanned a few of your posts. Perhaps you'll cut and paste a specific regarding an illegal sale?

"To further complicate matters, U.S. companies might innocently sell something to a Chinese buyer, only to learn later that it ended up in Iraq."
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Arlo

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A point of Reason
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2003, 08:33:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
would this be the guy?

 He was born in 1928 and as a young man joined the Haganah, the terrorist organization of Israel in its pre-state days. In 1953 he was given command of Unit 101, whose mission is often described as that of retaliation against Arab attacks on Jewish villages. Unit 101's purpose was that of instilling terror by the infliction of idescriminate, murderous violence.


 


You forgot the source(s) ....

http://www.wrmea.com/html/sharon_0101.htm

probably based on ....

http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html

Though it certainly could be the other way around.

http://www.counterpunch.org/aboutus.html

"CounterPunch is the bi-weekly muckraking newsletter edited by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair. Twice a month we bring our readers the stories that the corporate press never prints. We aren't side-line journalists here at CounterPunch. Ours is muckraking with a radical attitude and nothing makes us happier than when CounterPunch readers write in to say how useful they've found our newsletter in their battles against the war machine, big business and the rapers of nature.

We're in our sixth year now and have exceptionally loyal readers, who have delighted in our irreverent and biting approach. Time and again they tell us they're sick of dull, predictable writing. They want fresh facts, a newsletter that they can enjoy rather than just endure--and we give it to them. Barbara Ehrenreich says, "CounterPunch makes me think. It makes me laugh. Above all it tells me things I didn't know."

Here at CounterPunch we have many friends and all the right enemies. And, guaranteed, you'll never see any of us on the pundit line up at MSNBC. We try to stay beyond the pale."

- Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair

http://www.wrmea.com/html/about_us.htm

Publisher: Andrew I. Killgore

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslME_62/2877_62.asp

ADL WELCOMES STATE DEPARTMENT'S DISASSOCIATION FROM FORMER AMBASSADOR'S ANTI-ISRAEL COMMENTS

New York, NY, January 7, 1997...The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) welcomed reassurances from the State Department that it "unequivocally disassociates" itself from inflammatory comments attributed to former U.S. Ambassador to Qatar Andrew I. Killgore, who was honored at the State Department for his reports on the Middle East.

Amb. Killgore was presented an award for his activities as publisher of the American Educational Trust's Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, a publication which has promoted views that are tainted by anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. In response to ADL concerns, the State Department assured the League that it was not an official sponsor of the event, stating in a letter that it "unequivocally disassociates itself from the inflammatory comments attributed to former Amb. Killgore," and, "does not condone, nor will it tolerate, expressions of anti-Semitism of the kind cited in your letter."

In May, 1996, Diplomatic and Consular Officers, Retired (DACOR) awarded Amb. Killgore its Foreign Service Cup during the annual Foreign Service Day held at the State Department. The DACOR award acknowledged Amb. Killgore's publishing "accounts of events which most of the rest of the media has been reluctant to cover."

"Mr. Killgore's willingness to selectively 'cover' such events," wrote Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, in his letter to the Secretary of State, "is rooted in his career-long animosity towards Israel, a position that is clearly contrary to U.S. foreign policy."

The State Department stated that DACOR is one of three non-governmental co-sponsors of Foreign Service Day. In its letter, the State Department wrote, "Though there exists no official co-sponsorship with the Department of State of awards presented that day by the three private organizations, the presentations did occur at the Department of State. The Department of State regrets the situation which arose last May and will be in consultation with DACOR to avoid a potential recurrence of this nature."

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry[/size]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where oh where is an unbiased source? Either way? :D
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 08:35:55 PM by Arlo »

Offline Hangtime

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A point of Reason
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2003, 08:47:58 PM »
Arlo.. the dudes a terrorist. Further, he's dead set against the oslo accords, and continues to plow under palestinian homes and expanding illegal settlements.. something he's exceedingly good at.

1928: Born to Russian immigrants in a farming community outside Tel Aviv on Feb. 26.  

1948: After fighting in a Jewish militia opposed to British control, serves with distinction in Israel's war of independence with Arab states.

1953: Heads Unit 101, a force carrying out reprisals for slaying of Israeli woman and her two children. In October, Sharon's troops blow up more than 40 houses in Qibya, a village in the West Bank, then ruled by Jordan. Sixty-nine Arabs die, about half of them women and children. Sharon says later he thought houses were empty.

1956: Rebuked after engaging his troops in what his commanders regard as unnecessary and unplanned battle with Egyptian forces at Mitla Pass in Sinai Peninsula.

1967: Receives broad praise for his command of an armored division in the Mideast War, in which Israel captures the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula.

1971: Placed in charge of curbing terrorism in Gaza Strip. More than 100 suspected militants killed and hundreds detained. Attacks by Palestinians go from 34 in June to one in December.

1973: Commands drive by Israeli troops across the Suez Canal into Egypt during Mideast war. The daring assault cuts off Egypt's 3rd Army and helps turn the tide in fighting, establishing his reputation as war hero to many.

1970s, 80s, early 90s: As government minister, leads push to build dozens of Jewish settlements in West Bank and Gaza Strip, despite Palestinian and international protest. Settlements are one of most contentious issues in current peace negotiations. However, when Israel has to return the Sinai desert to Egypt in 1982, Sharon overrides resistance from Jewish settlers and has their homes bulldozed to rubble.

1982: As defense minister, engineers Israel's invasion of Lebanon. It is portrayed as quick, limited strike to drive Palestinian fighters from Israel's northern border. However, Israeli troops advance to outskirts of Beirut and war escalates. Israeli-allied Christian militia kill hundreds of Palestinians at refugee camps in west Beirut, sparking international outrage that leads to Sharon losing his job. Fighting in Lebanon lasts 18 years, until Barak unilaterally withdraws Israeli troops in May 2000.

2000: Sharon visits the disputed Temple Mount Sept. 28 to emphasize Israel's claim of sovereignty. Muslims, who call the site the Noble Sanctuary, are outraged, and widespread violence breaks out a day later. The bloodshed sparks a political crisis in Israel, leading to Barak's resignation. Sharon wins a landslide victory over Barak in Feb. 6, 2001, election for prime minister.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,6995,00.html
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Arlo

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A point of Reason
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2003, 11:02:56 PM »
I'd come closer to accepting this:

So Close, So Far Apart[/color]
The Bonds That Tie the Mideast’s Dueling Leaders


By Andrew Chang [/color]
source

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, left, and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon have been rivals for more than half a century. (AP Photo)

April 22 — Even the grandest boxing promoter couldn't have come up with a more devastating match-up than the one that is currently rocking the Middle East.

Ariel Sharon on one side, Yasser Arafat on the other: these are two men who are not only enemies by virtue of their constituencies — but by virtue of their personal histories as well.
Each man has spent nearly his entire life fighting for a cause diametrically opposed to the other. Each man has, at one time or another, through actions or words, vowed to flush the other and his people from what he concludes is sacred ground.

Their shared history is virtually a microcosm of the passions that have divided Jews and Arabs for generations. Between the 73-year-old Sharon and the 72-year-old Arafat, there is a lifetime of animosity.

Even their nicknames attest to their antagonism. Palestinians call Arafat "Abu Ammar," or "The Builder." Sharon's nickname, given to him by Israelis, is "The Bulldozer."

Down to the Roots

"Both gentlemen come with a lot of historical baggage, both for their own people and for the other side," said Kenneth Stein, a fellow at the Carter Center in Atlanta.

Since their formative years, these two septuagenarians faced off — at the negotiating table or on the battlefield.

Each got their start in the military life when, as teenagers, they joined paramilitary organizations at a point in history when both Israel and the Palestinian territories had yet to formally exist.

Shortly after Israel came into being in 1948, both men started to get their bearings as leaders. While Arafat became a student leader lobbying the Arab League for financial aid, Sharon was given the reins of commando Unit 101, whose role was to carry out retaliatory raids against the bases of suspected Arab terrorists.

It was as commander of Unit 101 that Sharon committed one of his most controversial acts: raiding the village of Qibya in Jordan in 1953. In the process, he and his troops reduced the town to rubble, and killed 69 people, many of them women and children. He said he was unaware the town had not been completely evacuated.

Just three years later, Arafat would take up arms as an Egyptian reserve officer during the Suez War of 1956, while Sharon became a paratroop commander. Three years after that, in 1959, Arafat helped found Palestinian nationalist group Fatah, meaning "armed struggle." Their first military operation against Israel took place in 1965. It was unsuccessful.

Time would only find the two at opposite ends of the spectrum. Sharon became a military man distinguished by his victories defending Israel against Arab armies. Arafat became the voice of the Palestinian people — bringing attention to their cause through politics and violence.

Their conflict took on a dramatically personal nature in 1982, when Sharon invaded Lebanon, ostensibly to wipe out Palestinian guerilla bases near Israel's northern border. But the operation expanded deep into the country, to the capital Beirut — a move some experts say was driven by Sharon's animosity towards Arafat, who was living in Lebanon.

Earlier this year, Sharon told an Israeli newspaper he regrets not killing Arafat during the invasion. "In principle, I'm sorry that we didn't liquidate him," Sharon said.

That comment should not have been a surprise to those who have observed Sharon in the intervening years.

At one of the most peaceful times in the Mideast, during U.S.-backed negotiations at Wye River, Md., in 1998, he refused to shake Arafat's hand when it was offered to him.

And in an interview with a Russian television station last year, Sharon described Arafat as a "murderer" and "pathological liar."

"He is not a head of state. There were some people who expected that he would behave like a head of state, but he behaves as the head of terrorists and murderers," Sharon said.

Bizarre Symbiosis

Some experts see this personal animosity at work in the Middle East today — one of the most violent times the region has ever seen outside of wartime.

Arafat had made deals with other Israeli leaders, even those who had military backgrounds and no affinity for Arabs — so his recalcitrance this time is noteworthy, said Denis Sullivan, chair of the political science department at Northeastern University.

"We know this guy can make a deal," Sullivan said.

Ilan Peleg, author of Human Rights in the West Bank and Gaza: Legacy and Politics suggested there was also evidence that Sharon was taking the situation personally.

He pointed to Sharon's demand this month that Arafat be excluded from a proposed U.S.-hosted Mideast peace summit. "The feud has personalized," Peleg said.

But experts also noted that the hatred between the two also creates a bizarre symbiosis. "They're useful enemies for each other," said Louis Kriesberg, professor emeritus at Syracuse University.

He said they reinforce each other's negative opinion of the other side, and make each other convenient targets for their own constituents to mobilize against.

Sharon was elected prime minister, defeating the more dovish Ehud Barak, in 2001 after negotiations with Arafat had failed, and Israelis began to worry about their security since the start of the intifada in 2000.

Experts noted that through this hateful symbiosis comes an even deeper irony: that the two sides may be closer to peace than they ever have been before.

Shafeeq Ghabra, director of the Kuwait Information Office, said "both Arafat and Sharon are empowered by their own people," and are enjoying unprecedented levels of support. If there was ever a time for them to stand out as a leader and make peace, this was it, he said.

However, he added the U.S. would have to give them the opportunity. And Stein of the Carter Center said that this was among the best times for that as well. Their rivalry "makes [U.S. peace negotiator Colin] Powell's role that much stronger because both side have to rely on Powell to bring something from the other," he said.

Others, though, deny that personal animosity has much to do with the current situation at all. Jamal Nassar, author of Intifada: Palestine at the Crossroads, said Arafat and Sharon would be at odds regardless of their personal histories.

"It's two ideological orientations," he said. "There's not room for compromise here."

And that's unfortunate, he said, because that means the only thing that unites them is their willingness to fight. "Both seem to think a military solution can solve their problems somehow," he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For the most part, the articles presented decrying Sharon as a "war criminal" or "terrorist" (in his own right) are from anti-Zionist/anti-Semitic sources. It's no secret that the Palestinians and sympathetic political agenda groups feel that way. Reading their slant will, of course, say that Sharon committed pre-meditated murder and that his claim to have no knowledge of the Qibyan villagers not being evacuated was an outright lie. Pro-Zionist sources will, of course, say the direct opposite. You can't expect articles presented from either source to have much impact when I've stated from the start that I require a source to contribute to the legitimacy of the article presented with intent to convince me. The above article at least attempts to present both points of view.

 I'll admit my pro-Israeli leanings. I'll not be an easy sell, so forgive me if I don't sway easily and adopt your pro-Palestinian stance without some serious debate involved. In the end we may both tire of it (or perhaps just I will) but as of now, I welcome more convincing proof as it becomes available.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2003, 11:07:22 PM »
arlo.. pssssst... they are BOTH freakin terrorists!!

thats the POINT!

LOL!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2003, 11:12:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
arlo.. pssssst... they are BOTH freakin terrorists!!

thats the POINT!

LOL!


The article I posted didn't say that. If anything it gave Arafat more legitimacy than I, personally, would. I'm not convinced. Sorry. But I've time to be, if it can be done. Who knows, in the end you may convert me yet. But right now, I support Israel and I understand why Sharon is taking the stance he is.

Thank you, though. :)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2003, 11:19:18 PM »
Yer welcome. :)

Keep diggin.. after awile i suspect you'll come to the same conclusion I did.. both sides have forfited any right to moral ascendancy.

America needs to review it's relationship with israel in light of the current situation... and the situation sucks.

But thanks for listening!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2003, 02:36:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime

would this be the guy?
[/b]
Great source... you really should try to base your opinions on sources that are at least somewhat unbiased.
Quote

.. the dudes a terrorist.


Hang...who the he** are you to make that call? Especially when your only source of information seems to be pro-palestine/anti-jewish websites?

Example:
Ever heard about Phoenix command Hangtime? Does that make the US a terrorist nation, or Nixon a terrorist?

Quote

Further, he's dead set against the oslo accords, and continues to plow under palestinian homes and expanding illegal settlements.. something he's exceedingly good at.
[/b]
Not really. What you need to understand here is that the Oslo accord is not a peace treaty in any way..it is not even close. All the Oslo accord did was say stuff like "we should try to solve these questions as soon as possible".

Maybe people would listen more to your analysis of Sharon and the Oslo accord if you could provide some better source for your statements.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2003, 02:39:43 AM by Hortlund »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2003, 04:31:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Sorry straffo (who might be related to me through rape...err, read 'inter-marriage'.


I'm living in Normandie,but I'm not Normand ;)