Author Topic: Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?  (Read 3629 times)

Offline Martlet

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2003, 01:02:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arfann
Define "light". You see a hundred or so US and a few thousand Iraqi deaths and you see "light" numbers. I gotta assume you never saw up close and personal what casualties look (and smell) like. That's a bunch and a group for zero gain.


You know what happens when you "assume".

For the campaign waged, 100+ casualties is light.  You've obviously never been in combat.

I'm not going to debate your "0 gain" idiocracy again.

Offline Sixpence

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2003, 01:12:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
The majority of Iraqis support us being there.


Unfortunately, time is of the essence. We need to expedite our plans for a new government. The sooner we leave, the better we look. They supported our cause, but they don't want us to stay. I think if we can improve living conditions quickly, that can help in their tolerance of our presence. If we stay too long it will seem to be occupation to them, and support will begin to erode.

There will be a struggle for power. Those who oppose the U.S. backed government factions will use "occupation" as a rally cry. Sure the war was not about oil, but the bottom line is whoever gains control of the government, gains control of that oil. Some say their oil is of better quality and easier to extract than that of saudi arabia. I believe they are also a member of OPEC? There is alot at stake here. Hundreds of billions. And everyone and their mother is gonna want a piece of the pie.The war was the easy part. Now comes the hard part.

I'm no expert on the middle east, and I could be totally wrong. That is just my opinion. In all honesty, I don't know what to expect, and that worries me more than anything.

WMD? It is clear they either destroyed them, or exported them. Success will not be measured by that.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

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Offline Pongo

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2003, 01:28:56 AM »
The US was saying they should go in cause the inspectors had failed to find anything. Therefore  proving that the Iraqis were not complying....There for they will just say that the lack of any evidence just proves that Syria is involved. And they will invade them.To the US public apperently the lack of any evidence is the best proof that there is something to hide.

Offline Sixpence

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2003, 01:37:57 AM »
With the removal of saddam, the quick ending to the war, a government for the people, the lifting of U.N. sanctions, and the ability for for Iraq to prosper, I'de say it was successful. WMD or not.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Martlet

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2003, 01:44:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Unfortunately, time is of the essence. We need to expedite our plans for a new government. The sooner we leave, the better we look. They supported our cause, but they don't want us to stay. I think if we can improve living conditions quickly, that can help in their tolerance of our presence. If we stay too long it will seem to be occupation to them, and support will begin to erode.

There will be a struggle for power. Those who oppose the U.S. backed government factions will use "occupation" as a rally cry. Sure the war was not about oil, but the bottom line is whoever gains control of the government, gains control of that oil. Some say their oil is of better quality and easier to extract than that of saudi arabia. I believe they are also a member of OPEC? There is alot at stake here. Hundreds of billions. And everyone and their mother is gonna want a piece of the pie.The war was the easy part. Now comes the hard part.

I'm no expert on the middle east, and I could be totally wrong. That is just my opinion. In all honesty, I don't know what to expect, and that worries me more than anything.

WMD? It is clear they either destroyed them, or exported them. Success will not be measured by that.


I agree, however that may not neccessarily happen.  

Our country, regardless of what people think about it, is pretty close to as good a system as you'll get.  Here's why.

Most people (you, me, and the average schmo) like recognition and power.  It's natural.  And when you get it, you don't want to give it up.  This is one of the things that make dictators.  While most people have the morals to step down, rather than murder to retain their position, some don't.  They get into power, usually legitimately (through election or popular appointment), then illegally and forcibly retain their power.

We got lucky.  When America was founded, it was founded by a group of guys that HONESTLY wanted the system to work.  So they set up a system of checks and balances.  They also gave the population a lot of the power.  Has every president shared this desire make the system work?  Probably not, but the system makes ITSELF work.  We had the right people do the right thing initially, and it just perpetuated itself.  Any one of the early leaders had a good chance of turning the system into a dictatorship had he really wanted to.

We have to hope the same thing happens in Iraq.  It's doubtful in my opinion, though.  Whoever takes over has to truly have Iraq's best interests at heart.  Chalabi seems to be the front runner now.  I have my doubts about his motives.  My fears are we removed one dictator, only to end up installing a "better" dictator.  Only time will tell.

One of the biggest concers is Iraq's economy.  It has the potential to be an extremely rich country.  Can they manage that effectively?  It's like handing Ft. Knox to a recent college grad, and telling him to "make a budget".  It's not that easy, and comes with many temptations.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2003, 04:51:18 AM »
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Originally posted by Pongo
The US was saying they should go in cause the inspectors had failed to find anything. Therefore  proving that the Iraqis were not complying....


The waepons inspectors were not there to look for WMD they were there to verify compliance - and any undiscosed weapons they did stumble upon were a sign of non compliance and a violation of UNSC resolution 1441.

Offline Nash

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2003, 08:00:07 AM »
"...and any undiscosed weapons they did stumble upon were a sign of non compliance and a violation of UNSC resolution 1441."

So with respect to Iraq's violation of 1441, what does it mean if no WMD is ever found?

Offline caereth

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2003, 08:33:26 AM »
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Martlet wrote:

You know what happens when you "assume".

For the campaign waged, 100+ casualties is light. You've obviously never been in combat.

I'm not going to debate your "0 gain" idiocracy again.


100+ casualties may be light, but you obviously missed the part about the few thousand Iraqi deaths. Out of which 1878-2325 deaths are civilian (http://iraqbodycount.net/). And many more thousands (there seems to be no numbers about this, guessing there) military casualties.

Offline Arfann

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2003, 12:42:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
You know what happens when you "assume".

For the campaign waged, 100+ casualties is light.  You've obviously never been in combat.

I'm not going to debate your "0 gain" idiocracy again.



Ah, Rush debating class, lesson 285.  When all else fails declare yourself the winner and the game over.  You'll lose some points, though for failing to say "Nuff Said!".

Offline Arfann

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2003, 12:45:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
The US was saying they should go in cause the inspectors had failed to find anything. Therefore  proving that the Iraqis were not complying....There for they will just say that the lack of any evidence just proves that Syria is involved. And they will invade them.To the US public apperently the lack of any evidence is the best proof that there is something to hide.


BOIIIIIING! Give the man a cigar. Such a shame to have to go north of the border for an intelligent assessment. Must be the water down here or something.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2003, 02:47:34 PM »
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Originally posted by caereth
100+ casualties may be light, but you obviously missed the part about the few thousand Iraqi deaths. Out of which 1878-2325 deaths are civilian (http://iraqbodycount.net/). And many more thousands (there seems to be no numbers about this, guessing there) military casualties.


2325 is extremely light.  We took more civilian casualties with the destruction of 2 buildings. (Not implying any connection whatsoever, just putting it in perspective.)
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2003, 02:57:25 PM »
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Originally posted by Pongo
To the US public apperently the lack of any evidence is the best proof that there is something to hide.


It's actually the lack of cooperation and well... see... we know how this goes: Iraq supposed to account for all banned weapons. Iraq supposed to show banned weapons to UN weapons inspectors. Iraq supposed to destroy them underneath UN weapons inspectors supervision. Iraq did none of the above.

To me it's fairly obvious, people see "UN weapons inspectors" and mistakenly assume they are supposed to be in the country inspecting every nook and cranny. They were actually there to have Saddam account for his contraband and destroy it underneath their supervision.

So it's actually pretty clear: The obvious intentional lack of cooperation by Saddam is a pretty damn good indication that there IS something to hide.
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Offline caereth

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2003, 04:25:23 PM »
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Holden McGroin originally wrote:
2325 is extremely light. We took more civilian casualties with the destruction of 2 buildings. (Not implying any connection whatsoever, just putting it in perspective.)


Well, I for one wouldn't call the losses in your two buildings "light".

Offline Holden McGroin

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2003, 04:45:16 PM »
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Originally posted by caereth
Well, I for one wouldn't call the losses in your two buildings "light".


For a terrorist action, hopefully in 20 years we will still consider WTC to be heavy losses, but in war, civilian casulaties of the order of 3000 are very light indeed.  

Compare Dresden or Shanghai, Stalingrad or Tokyo, and the casualties measured in the 100's of thousands.

That was my point.
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Offline OIO

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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2003, 04:49:49 PM »
Caereth, those casualties are light in terms of a military conflict. They are not however, light in the view of a terrorrist action.

There is a big difference between having 250 thousand troops fighting for a week , to having some lunatic in a cockpit for 30 minutes.

IMO, the Iraqi population was LUCKY that it was the US/UK/Australia leading the invasion instead of China, Russia or India ; or else the Iraqi land wouldve been shelled, bombed and shot at indiscrimenately with hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million or more civilian casualties. Those countries dont have precision weapon or the need to use them... leveling Baghdad just because their enemy was there wouldve been de facto policy.

In fact, Iraq could very well be the first country to ever emerge from a total defeat with less than 2% of its total civilian population killed.