Author Topic: Help revoke Bowling for Columbine's Oscar (Read 5882 times)

Mini D · « **Reply #120 on:** May 01, 2003, 07:38:55 AM »

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Originally posted by beet1e
Well that's the most ridiculous thing you've said in this thread. How the hell would gun crime/gun homicide be possible if people didn't have access to guns?

LOL! damn.. you continue to be as stupid as ever.

People with the exact same access to guns have drastically different homicide rates... yet you say the guns cause the elevation?

Please beet1e... stop and think about it for just one second. I can't believe you've ever actually done that.

I'll say this very slowly for you beet1e....

Country A has access to guns. Country B has access to guns. Country A has 10 times the murder rate as Country B. Is that because of access to guns?

Demographic A has access to guns. Demographic B has access to guns. Demographic A has 10 times the murder rate as Demographic B. Is that because of access to guns?

You use global stats to attempt to make a point, while ignoring those same stats when it stops proving your point. Its time to start using some basic algebra beet1e. The similarities cancel out. The differences are where the variables lay. You eliminate those variables and the murder rate drops by 80%.

MiniD

beet1e · « **Reply #121 on:** May 01, 2003, 08:02:50 AM »

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Originally posted by Mini D
People with the exact same access to guns have drastically different homicide rates... yet you say the guns cause the elevation?

I didn't say that. I have always acknowledged that US homicide is much greater in poor/black/socially deprived areas. But you have a gun policy/freedom/right/big mistake - whatever you want to call it - which is a nationwide policy. And even those legally held guns in your leafy white suburbs can get into the wrong hands. The kid interviewed in the pool hall in BFC said that he used stole a gun from a friend's house, and went to downtown Detroit where he could sell that and other stolen weapons for $50 - for a 9mm.

You have your 2nd amendment - fine. Take the rough with the smooth. That policy makes it easy for poor/black/socially deprived to kill eachother. And because that doesn't affect you, or Toad, or funkedup, or any other gun crime NIMBY, you're saying that makes it OK. Right. Now I know where we stand.

You keep asking me questions. So now let me have my turn to ask you one! Tell me exactly WHY you have so many gun homicides in the US. You say it's not guns, despite the fact that a handgun is the most commonly used murder weapon, was designed for that very purpose, and has no other use/.

Educate me, Mini "the omniscient" D - when you've got a free minute when you're not insulting Dowding and Saintaw in that other thread.

Mini D · « **Reply #122 on:** May 01, 2003, 08:12:14 AM »

No.. you don't want to hear it beet1e. You've never wanted to hear it. It doesn't fit in with the rhetoric you attempt to pass off as fact.

Guns are not what make America a drastically different culture than G.B. Yet you seemingly maintain that they are.

Guns beget gun violence. Yeah. That's a really brilliant connection there beatle. With one minor exception... I've never seen a gun get up and kill anybody. I doubt anyone has ever seen any inanimate object actually get up and kill anyone.

If you want to ignor underlying causes and point to symptoms as if the solution lays there, then feel free. You're not curing anything. You're not attempting to cure anything.

And guns don't have a use... um... OK. You hold onto that one too. Except... why is it that your bobbies have sidearms again? I mean, they really just want to go around killing people?

MiniD

lazs2 · « **Reply #123 on:** May 01, 2003, 08:29:26 AM »

yep... anyone can join the NRA.. I would be happy to see any new members and their $35 bucks a year. They even get to vote for NRA officers. If dorf vader doesn't think Heston makes a good spokesman he can join and vote (Heston has retired BTW).

For those who believe in the 2nd ... and who cherish their fast erroding gun rights... this thread should make it very clear what we are up against and why you need to join the NRA to help out. they do good work... quit freeloading and making everyone else do the heavy lifting.
lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #124 on:** May 01, 2003, 08:34:49 AM »

Oh.. I think that MT would agree that the best way for the U.S. to get Canadian like gun homicide figures is to make it illegal for black people to own guns and... illegal for anyone in a population center over 100,000 to own them. instant low gun homicide rate.

beetles figures of 300,000 deaths in 25 years (that is a quarter of a frigging century) are a bit strange also.. they don't reflect that gun violence has gone down per capita during those years... they don't reflect that 1-3 million crimes PER YEAR are prevented by firearms in the U.S.
lazs

bowser · « **Reply #125 on:** May 01, 2003, 09:34:13 AM »

"...Canada, high guns, low homicide. ...".

Canada, high guns? Give yourself a shake.

"...I've never seen a gun get up and kill anybody. I doubt anyone has ever seen any inanimate object actually get up and kill anyone. ..:.

A variation on "guns don't kill, people do". Gun owners have several valid arguments, you really don't need to use this one. It's catchy but it makes us (yes, I'm a gun owner) look like idiots.

bowser

midnight Target · « **Reply #126 on:** May 01, 2003, 09:56:33 AM »

Always playing the race card huh lazs?

I have no problem with gun ownership. I think the move to revoke the Oscar is silly, and a half witted attempt by the NRA to counterattack Moore.

But since the subject has been breached....

If its not the guns then why is our homicide rate so high?

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they don't reflect that 1-3 million crimes PER YEAR are prevented by firearms in the U.S.

And this is a "good thing"? Is our society so screwed up that disarming through the law would lead to 1-3 million more gun crimes? (Only criminals would have guns).

Are guns and gun ownership a self perpetuating arms race in miniature?

The whole point of BFC was to explore the reason behind our admittedly violent society. Instead of saying over and over that it ain't the guns... what is it?

funkedup · « **Reply #127 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:25:35 AM »

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Originally posted by beet1e
That principle of which you speak - unabated gun proliferation - has led to 300,000 gun related homicides in a 25 year period. I think the problem is a little bit bigger than "tiny".

Freedom has risks. You can have a perfectly safe life if you surrender all freedom and take no risks... or you can have freedom and an interesting but risky life. A lot of us prefer the latter.

And as MiniD pointed out, it is indeed a tiny percentage of the population that has a problem with using firearms safely.

Toad · « **Reply #128 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:30:46 AM »

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Originally posted by bowser

Canada, high guns? Give yourself a shake.
bowser

Are you saying Canada doesn't have a lot of guns in circulation?

Ask Beet1e

but I'm pretty sure I remember even Moore making that point in his "epic". In fact, that's why he takes his camera man to Canada.. because they a lot of guns but low homicide.

If you don't want to ask Beet, I think you can find gun ownership numbers pretty easily.

funkedup · « **Reply #129 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:42:00 AM »

I doubt there is a big difference in homicide rates between Canada and parts of the USA with similar demographics - 90% white, low population density.

Stringer · « **Reply #130 on:** May 01, 2003, 10:53:02 AM »

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Originally posted by midnight Target

And this is a "good thing"? Is our society so screwed up that disarming through the law would lead to 1-3 million more gun crimes? (Only criminals would have guns).

MT, he didn't say gun crimes....he said crimes, period.

And maybe our society is that screwed up, but it's not the guns that are screwing it up, it is us, the "society". Or more accurately, maybe it's a very small number within our "society" that are screwed up.

Why is it a race card if those are the facts?

And before I get accussed of being bad, when I say the small number being screwed up, I mean a small number no matter their race, creed, religion, ethnic background.

beet1e · « **Reply #131 on:** May 01, 2003, 12:28:30 PM »

Hi, Mini! I'm home

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No.. you don't want to hear it beet1e. You've never wanted to hear it. It doesn't fit in with the rhetoric you attempt to pass off as fact.

That's what I think about you. You don't want to accept that your 2nd amendment is what puts guns in the hands of those too irresponsible to own them. You can't handle the truth! And you haven't given me an answer on what are the causes of the high homicide rate because you don't have an answer. We don't need algebraic formulae. It's really quite simple. Imagine shipping 5,000 guns to the moon. Then wait a year, and then - wheyhey! No gun crime on the moon! "Proof" that guns are not the problem!

Still, MT has addressed that.

Lazs's answer not to arm blacks could work! No guns to blacks or criminals, but then a lot of people who keep a gun at home for security would no longer need one. Lazs, those stats were from the Home Office! That's why they sound funny.

I did not derive that 300,000 from averages - I added up the figures for the years available - every year in a 25 year period. I'll dig it out again if you want. Lazs, while you're here, you remember when you came to London but felt perfectly safe, unarmed - how do you reconcile that against your perceived need to keep several loaded guns within the security of your own home? -Not a trick question, just asking.

FunkedUp - I would agree with you - keep guns etc. if the problem really was tiny. But hell - we've just had a guns amnesty because the GOV is appalled at some 60-75 gun deaths each year! It pulled in 17,000 guns and over 400,000 rounds of ammo. Those guns are to be melted down. They will no longer be available to be stolen/sold on to criminals. If the US gun homicide were as tiny as ours, I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

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90% white, low population density.

We have a high population density in the UK (2nd highest in Europe - Holland is the highest), and plenty of blacks. But low gun crime - so that's not the answer either.

Stringer! What happened to your "emotican" policy?

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Or more accurately, maybe it's a very small number within our "society" that are screwed up.

Again, if we're talking about people who misuse firearms, the figures tell a different story, and the numbers are not what I would call small.

Stringer · « **Reply #132 on:** May 01, 2003, 12:58:29 PM »

LOL Beet1e, I couldn't take it anymore and had to move to text!

If it is the misuse of firearms the figures do not tell a different story.

In the context of our "society" in its entirety, it is a very small segment.

Especially if we acknowledge the fact that it is, indeed, a small segment of our society who commit crimes, then parse that down further by segmenting those who commit violent crimes, and then parse it down even further by those who commit violent crimes using guns.

Now, my question to you is, why is your posting activity increased so much lately, your pets stopped listening to your speeches?

funkedup · « **Reply #133 on:** May 01, 2003, 12:59:50 PM »

Beetle

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If the US gun homicide were as tiny as ours, I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

Tiny is relative. 300,000 over 25 years is 12,000 per year. That's .004% of the population of the US. That's pretty tiny to me.

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We have a high population density in the UK (2nd highest in Europe - Holland is the highest), and plenty of blacks. But low gun crime - so that's not the answer either.

The point I made was in regard to a comparison to Canada and the US, who both have similarly high firearms ownership rates. We weren't talking about Europe.

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Again, if we're talking about people who misuse firearms, the figures tell a different story, and the numbers are not what I would call small.

Like I said, .004% is tiny. I don't know anybody who has been a victim of a gun crime. I've never seen a gun pulled in public, or any sort of gun crime. Any amount of statistics you produce are not going to convince me that gun homicides are a problem that is worth relinquishing my first freedom.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #134 on:** May 01, 2003, 01:07:45 PM »

Stringer
His post activity is going up cause his tamato Broke or was stollen and now he is bored.

To bad he is no smarter.

He is getting destroyed in this thread and just does not see it.

It is funny though.