Author Topic: For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)  (Read 10146 times)

Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2004, 03:21:31 AM »
Suggesting a change, silly.

Offline Puck

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2004, 09:16:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Suggesting a change, silly.


Why?

Everyone pays thair $15, let 'em fly whatever they want (as opposed to what someone else wants them to fly)

Not too surprisingly this has become a religious debate.  The good news (for me) is it's not the first (or last) time and I suspect HTC has already voted.

Kweassa; it was well thought out, even if I don't agree  :)
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Offline Toad

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2004, 11:37:47 AM »
Far better if AH gets 15,000 players and HT finally decides to try Early, Mid and Late war arenas. :)

Was it Laz that had the idea of seperating them based on top speeds falling into three different ranges?
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Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2004, 11:39:10 PM »
Thank you for thinking that way, Puck.

 Hehe, 'religious debate'? Let's just say it's this boy's version of dreaming Utopia. ;)

 What you say is true - everyone pays there money and gets to fly what they want. However, I don't aim on taking away anything from anybody - it's like in the theaters :) : everybody pays their money, but they can't all sit where they want.

 It's an attempt to bring a minimal artificial structure to solve what people are already complaining about.

 
 Anyhow, to tell you the truth I also don't expect we'll ever get to see this implemented any time soon ;)

Offline Halo

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2004, 11:08:25 AM »
Kweassa, big salute to you for doctoral level research on the perk system.  

However, to weigh in however feebly in the opinion spectrum, I despise the perk system and it appears some others do too.  

It gives the best players more advantages that they need less than anyone else.  A reverse perk system would be more balancing, but that would penalize the best players -- there is an injustice with either kind of perk system.  

It often seems that arguing for or against perk systems consumes more energy than any other topic on Aces High forums, energy that might be more productively applied to other needs.  

My vote is to kill the perk system in the Main Arena and encourage those who want more balanced historical rides to use the Combat Theater.  

And -- quit perking rides in Combat Theater!  How the malady spreads!  (Limit availability of some types as necessary, but without perking them.)

HiTech, just for grins, why don't you begin an official Aces High Poll category in this excellent Community forum, and make these the first questions (all answers yes or no):

1.  Do you favor the present perk point system in the Main Arena?

2.  Do you want any other kind of perk point system in the Main Arena?

3.  Instead of perk points, would you prefer that certain rides in the Main Arena be limited in availability (e.g., fewer numbers or more distant bases)?

4.  Do you favor any kind of perk point system in the Combat Theater?

5.  Instead of any perk points, would you prefer that certain rides in the Combat Theater be limited in availability (e.g., fewer numbers or more distant bases)?

6.  If the present perk system is abandoned in the Main Arena, would you continue your Aces High subscription?

7.  If the present periodic perk systems are abandoned in the Combat Theater, would you continue your Aces High subscription?

It's important to realize that any such poll area would NOT dictate to Aces High management.  HiTech and associates obviously can run Aces High any way they choose.  

However, periodic polls could be valuable management tools to more clearly give management an idea of what the majority of customers really want rather than trying to decipher the intent of the most vocal customers who post in the forums.  

The polls should not be anonymous since management might need to correlate things like length of membership and amount of time played, maybe even scoring, to weigh results in various forms as well as simply tabulate overall responses regardless of qualifications.  

Nor should management necessarily be expected to report publicly all results.  Credibility would rise in proportion to exact numbers, but general summaries could also be useful to both management and customers.  

And, finally, can't let any new poll area become an administrative morass impairing optimum development of Aces High improvements.  

That's about it.  Easy, huh?
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Offline captg

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Hummmm...
« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2004, 12:21:32 PM »
I'm not understanding the oposition???  No one is suggesting perking the "big four" or what ever they are called equal to the 262.  Heck...2 perk points would probable do the trick.  As for the argument concerning the La7 and its K/D ratio...that is probably due to the fact it is the plane of choice when defending a base that is being vulched.  If you could break the K/D up into "air-to-air"  and "vulched-on-the-ground" stats, I think it would paint a different picture.

Also, by placing a 2-8 point perk on these planes, the "vulched-on-the-ground" stats would be attainable just by the comparison from before-perk to after-perk implementation.

I'm al for perking as suggested in this post.  Of course, I currently have over 1300 fighter perks.  I do fly the La-7 alot, however I prefer the Spit-5 to the -9 and I would rather fly the Hurri-2c to the Nik.  If the La-7 were perked, it would push me back into the Spit-5 and even the P-40/KI-61 I have been flying a little lately!!!

all...see you in the air!

Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #111 on: January 13, 2004, 03:21:08 PM »
Thank you for the salute Halo :)

Quote
However, to weigh in however feebly in the opinion spectrum, I despise the perk system and it appears some others do too.

 It gives the best players more advantages that they need less than anyone else.


 It's been mentioned before, but personally I think what you have said is just a popular myth. I admit it is quite difficult to set a standard on which pilot is a "veteran", and which is "average", but regardless of it all I believe the influence of "veterans" in the MA, at least in a large scale, is close to non-existent.

 The best players don't need any advantage to be the best - they've already got what it takes(even if we give the Tempests and F4U-4s, Spit14s to the 'average/rookie' pilots for free, they'd still be shot down regularly, striving for a 1:1 K/D ratio.  :) ).

 Nor have they become recognized as "the best" by using planes that require a lot of perks. I don't think we have statistics on this, but empirically, it seems most of the recognizable vets are usually P-51D/P-38L pilots, with speck of LW veterans in usually G-10s, and few more Spit/N1K2 veterans of PAC timezones. <- Note that all the suggested planes, are actually the best of free planes which I am looking forward to seeing them perked.

 If there is any advantage that the vets gain from this system, it is that they get to fly the 'super planes' on their whim. But even that, is a product of how the certain planes are priced, not a fault of the system itself.

Quote
A reverse perk system would be more balancing, but that would penalize the best players -- there is an injustice with either kind of perk system.


 In regards to sort of a 'philosophical' discussion, it is very intersting to see people again and again referring to perk prices as a 'penalty'. Having to pay perk prices, are conceptually recognized as 'punishment'. Sort of reminds me of how many people view taxes :D

Quote
It often seems that arguing for or against perk systems consumes more energy than any other topic on Aces High forums, energy that might be more productively applied to other needs.


 That is true.

 But you must realize this: "other needs" do not form an alternative to this particular problem at hand. It can merely divert our attention to something else, temporarily. Once the excitement is over, sooner or later people will again start complaining about all the malicious kamikaze attacks, all the runstangs and Spit/Niki dweebs.

 One way or another, people must face this problem, and either decide to 'tolerate' or 'object'. Of course, no matter how perfect a system there will always be complaints. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no way to at least partially treat the problem and make it better.

Quote
My vote is to kill the perk system in the Main Arena and encourage those who want more balanced historical rides to use the Combat Theater.


 That actually might happen. If the MA is just full of Tempests and 262s, people will start looking for an alternative.

 I don't believe anybody views the MA as 'historic'. Gameplay balance does not necessarily aquaint itself with history - meaning; there are people who don't care about history at all, but still want to see a MA nicely rounded and balanced out, without too many jets and rockets, and without too many planes of a certain type infesting the whole area.
 
Quote
And -- quit perking rides in Combat Theater! How the malady spreads! (Limit availability of some types as necessary, but without perking them.)


 But the CT perks, work EXACTLY the way it is expected to be working, with EXACTLY the desired effect.

 ...

 If there is one thing I can say, abolishment of perks, will bring to the MA a catastrophic disaster.

 All the negative problems of the current MA, are direct results of non-structured gaming. The current perked planes, are the "absolutely unallowable" last resort planes that will kill the gameplay - that is why they are so heavily perked(in this case, the word 'punitive' does seem adequate).

 It is not the existing methods of structure that people are dissatisfied with - it's the lack of structure, which fuels the certain types of activities solely concentrated on "winning the game no matter the cost", that people feel uncomfortable with.

 If AH compares itself with the the growth of cities, AH is like Rome. A modern day city which evolved from the ancient times - where a certain "core" of gameplay components formed the very first stages of the "city". As new concepts and developments appeared, they were added around the "core" in a patchwork.

 The result, is a very beautiful and impressive cultural city, with unfortunately a diabolical road system and messy patchwork of city blocks and zones - that's how current AH is like.

 In the first stages of AH, where planes and pilots were few, the territorial combat didn't mean much. Everybody knew everybody, and they all enjoyed pure A2A combat. Even if there was a land-grab scheme, it was simplified, easy, and not even all that important. Important real-life concepts that influence large scale battles - such as attrition, logistics, economical structures, and etc etc. - weren't in the game.

 As AH grew older, more and more concepts were added in to accomodate certain aspects of the game which were newly required with the growth of gamer population. A lot of them helped, but some aspects, just weren't compatible with how AH was designed in the first place.

 Now, if we want to get rid of perks, we would have no choice but to ask HTC to implement a new MA, with all the current concepts and aspects of gameplay re-evaluated, re-designed, and restructured - like how one would build a totally new city in the modern times. Preplanning and structuring.

 I suspect that kind of restructuring is what we might expect from the AH2:ToD mode. The MA will remain as it is. But that does mean, that the current problems of the MA will also be preserved.

 Then I say we find a method to 'tweak' the gameplay without having to add in any major/new gameplay system that would take time and resources - *shrug* the only real alternative for doing that, is using the perk system. No other choice at all. :)

Offline Halo

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2004, 03:15:11 PM »
Well, Kweassa, to use your Roman analogy, you certainly are among the emperor's most articulate inner circle perk advisors.  

However, I must remain one of the unconvinced hillside peasants, gazing down at a Rome mired in mathematical apportionments instead of the freedom of opportunity that made it great.

To subdue the dweeb hordes by crippling weapon selection is all the more ironic because it is not only unnecessary but counterproductive.  Look at all the perk thread contagion -- whining about superior rides will never stop until every ride is perked, and then it will start all over again.  

Likewise, even in the Combat Theater where matchups are the most carefully limited in both perking and availability, has any scenario ever ended with everyone pleased about the choices of rides and gameplay?  Unanimity is not the nature of combat simulations.  

If enough perk protestors get tired of having ride choices limited,  perk nobles might have nobody to play with but themselves.

Let Emperor HiTech get past the noisy senate chambers and poll the masses, or his will not be the first empire that did not listen far and wide enough.  

Perk proponents are always bringing up the spectre of everyone flying only Me 262s or Tempests or Chogs or whatever.  So what?  That wouldn't last long.  People would get bored and choose whatever ride gave them the most challenge.  

That is already rewarded with higher scoring for lower performing planes and vehicles.  

People with little time or talent or inclination to amass perk points would have renewed delight in the game.  People with plenty of time and talent could fly whatever is most challenging to them and amass higher scores by zapping better planes.  

Combat Theater would have increased participation by those who want more balanced and historical matchups.  Aces High staff could devote more time to giving us more planes and vehicles instead of trying to sort through the uproar of perk point debates.

How did the purity of Aces High ever get so complicated?  

Regarding my previous poll, one question is the most crucial of all for the Main Arena:

Do you favor having all planes and ground vehicles equally available at all times for all players without any kind of perk point or other limiting system?

   Answer yes or no.

I vote Yes to no perks at all in the Main Arena.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 03:18:02 PM by Halo »
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Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2004, 05:23:27 PM »
I won't object to much of what you say, Halo - I guess it's just difference in the point of view which cannot be amended ;)

 However, about this line, I must comment:

Quote
People with little time or talent or inclination to amass perk points would have renewed delight in the game. People with plenty of time and talent could fly whatever is most challenging to them and amass higher scores by zapping better planes.


 It's really ironic, and also subtle, on just how one might be able to balance this problem out.

 Flight simulations, especially combat flight simulations, are inherently competitive. It's basically a dog-eat-dog world where talent speaks out for itself, and where the shot down have no rights to complain about anything.

 So, just exactly how much does the system have to stand in for the "People with little time or talent"[/b]? The MA isn't like the real world society, needing a social welfare for the meek.

 Basically, no matter how the system is tweaked, ultimately a combat-based flight simulation genre will always remain as an area of competition. "People with little time or talent", simply have no place to be. It's either learn and become better, or lose interest and die out.

 However, what the system can do, is assume that with enough time, sooner or later everyone can come to manifest reasonable grade of talent(presumably a K/D ratio between 0.7~1.3). It is when they come to that certain level, that the gameplay may be balanced to their terms.

 Obviously many people come and go in AH, and many of the people in the MA are total newbies. We aren't really inclined to design a system that makes their miserable newbies days any easier. They must learn for themselves.

 And if they reach a certain average level, then they may benefit from the perk system, at least, the one I'm suggesting. It's subtly different from what it is now, and the two, aren't the same thing.

Offline Halo

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2004, 06:30:19 PM »
Regarding the little time OR talent statement, I was echoing what I've read from several apparently good players who were lamenting not having as much time as others to amass perk points.  

There was no doubt about their talent or competitiveness.  
I hadn't previously considered that aspect, and thought it an important new consideration.  

Little talent shouldn't be taken lightly either because apparently Aces High needs all the player base it can get (e.g., a major reason for TOD supposedly being to tap new potential players for a different aspect of simulation).  

Whether newbies face perks or no perks, they certainly have a steep learning curve and will or will not endure according to their own inclinations.  No perks is a better deal for them, but probably it is only one of many factors influencing whether they decide to remain in or leave Aces High.  

As for me, I have adequate time to play Aces High, and I've been here and in other simulations for a long time, but my talent varies between mediocre to average.  Yet I still enjoy the game because it always has just about whatever challenges I care to face.

For the most part I've kept silent about the perk points, but by this time I feel that the non-perk viewpoint deserves more consideration than it has been getting.  

What has always surprised me is that the Combat Theater is so perfect for balancing and limiting rides that I've always wondered what all the perk fuss was about in the Main Arena.

Combat Theater is more varied and fun than any rolling plane set, which I'm glad Aces High never used the way WarBirds did.  

I played in Aces High before perk points and enjoyed it more then.  I accepted the later perk point system because of all the uproar, but after listening to the debate a couple years now, I still question why all the fuss, which just gets worse.  

Some people will never be happy until every single ride is perked and reperked after every month's statistics are in.  Reminds me how the federal income system has grown into a monster that no one can figure out anymore without outside help like TurboTax.

Take a look sometime at Fighter Ace arenas.  Many of them are just arcade shootouts, but Aces High could learn some things from the most difficult arenas, which are tougher than anything in Aces High even if the flight models and views from the interior are not as good.

Okay, a potential compromise:  if Aces High has the capacity, how about adding a new Main Arena WITHOUT perks?  Offer a Main Arena with all rides available with no extra cost alongside the current Main Arena with perk point limitations.

No separate poll necessary.  The customers will vote with their feet.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 06:37:08 PM by Halo »
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Offline BigW

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2004, 12:34:00 AM »
I support this (Kweassa's idea for light perking).

Good thought in this Kweassa.

I would suggest that the Spit IX get perked, even if for just 1 point.  I don't see the argument for what year a plane was made as entirely valid.  The key point, as I see it, is how a plane is modeled.  Accurately modeled or not, if a plane dominates the arena in numbers like the spit IX has, it seems there is good reason to consider the light perking of it.

As for perking of the F6F, if you're going to perk the D-hog I don't see why you wouldn't perk the Hellcat as well.  Has the same armament and virtually same ordinance payload as the F4U-D but climbs and turns a bit better while cruising a bit slower.

 -W
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 04:29:51 AM by BigW »

Offline allegro

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2004, 04:07:04 PM »
What a fantastic idea. Very well thought out and very well presented. <<<>>>, hope it gets acted upon.

Offline TBolt A-10

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2004, 03:34:32 PM »
Quote

from Kweassa's New Perk Agenda:

Newly perked planes
--------------------------
LA-7: 5 points
TYPHOON: 3 points
YAK9-U: 3 points
P-51D: 4 points
190D-9: 4 points
F4U-1D: 3 points
109G-10: 4 points
P-38L: 3 points
N1K2-J: 3 points
P-47D-30: 3 points



2 quick notes:

1) I think you ought to add 8 to 10 perk points to each listed above.

and,

2) I would suggest that HTC consider (for both AH1 and AH2) requiring that each pilot earn a certain number of perkies in an earlier version before advancing to the later-model aircraft.

ie: Bf 109E -> promoted to Bf 109F -> promoted to Bf 109G2 -> promoted to Bf 109G6 -> promoted to Bf 109G10

P-51B -> promoted to P-51D

Spit V / Seafire -> promoted to Spit IX -> promoted to Spit XIV

etc., etc.

Offline B17Skull12

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2004, 05:33:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TBolt A-10
2) I would suggest that HTC consider (for both AH1 and AH2) requiring that each pilot earn a certain number of perkies in an earlier version before advancing to the later-model aircraft.

ie: Bf 109E -> promoted to Bf 109F -> promoted to Bf 109G2 -> promoted to Bf 109G6 -> promoted to Bf 109G10

P-51B -> promoted to P-51D

Spit V / Seafire -> promoted to Spit IX -> promoted to Spit XIV

etc., etc.

2) Newbies will not stand a chance and they will leave which will mean no new customers for htc.
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline TBolt A-10

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2004, 07:23:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B17Skull12
2) Newbies will not stand a chance and they will leave which will mean no new customers for htc.


This would probably be true for only a very few noobs.  They have no character & don't belong here if all they care about is flying the best w/out earning the right to do so.  That's the idea behind T.O.D.  And, I think it can be applied to the M.A., as well.