Author Topic: E.U. Satellite System Plan Threatened (Read 1993 times)

Dowding · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:26:00 AM »

Maybe I'm thinking of SatNav programs with updated roadmaps.

But the GPS systems you buy are not military grade as Naso says. It sounds like the European project will allow civilians to purchase such accuracy. This won't be useful to you or I, but to companies that need that kind of accuracy (I'm thinking heavy engineering) it probably would be highly useful.

Naso · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:27:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
Naso, I know that civilain GPS access has always have a few meters resolution, but I didn't think that has ever changed in war or not. I have never heard of complaints from any source that the GPS system was degraded.

Millions of people around the world use the GPS system. Airlines, ships etc.... and I never heard of the system being impared or interfered with.

I can see one reason for the EU system, and that's possibly so their militaries could have a GPS system that wouldn't depend on outside sources. That's the best reason I could see.....and it's a very good reason, but for civilian use, I don't see who would pay to use it.

It can be few meters when you are lucky, usually is in the range of 200-300 meters average induced error, in vertical, too.

No complains, is a known fact, how can you complain of a thing that is advertized on each GPS apparat manual (the error I mean).

The few meters error is the "natural" error that have the class-A, there are rumors it is UNDER 1 meter

The last sentence is already a sufficient reason to develope the system, infact the major future customers are the Euro military.

For civilian use?

Dunno, someone may need to have max precision, like for auto-landing systems or other high precision activities, without leaving that in the hands of a friendly, but foreign, military force.
It's not difficult to grasp.
As an example, what did you asked NASA in case your GPS was "made in France" ?

To develop one "made in USA", or not?

NUKE · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:28:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
Maybe I'm thinking of SatNav programs with updated roadmaps.

But the GPS systems you buy are not military grade as Naso says. It sounds like the European project will allow civilians to purchase such accuracy. This won't be useful to you or I, but to companies that need that kind of accuracy (I'm thinking heavy engineering) it probably would be highly useful.

Yeah, big companies would benifit from a highly accurate system.

The one on my notebook seems to be pretty darn accurate though..... within a few yards.

Naso · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:38:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
Dowding, not here you don't just by a receiver. I'm nearly positive it's free world-wide.

I just put one on my notebook.....

AFAIK, there is'nt a subscription, just a royalty for each receiver produced (similar to Microsoft's when a new PC is built), and only some factory is allowed to built it.

NUKE · « **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:43:38 AM »

http://www.beyonddiscovery.org/content/view.page.asp?I=468

Quote

GPS satellites now broadcast two signals: a civilian signal that is accurate to within 100 feet and a second signal that only the military can decode that is accurate to within 60 feet. The Pentagon has also reserved the ability to introduce errors at any time into the civilian signal to reduce its accuracy to about 300 feet.

In March 1996, the White House announced that a higher level of GPS accuracy will be made available to everyone, and the practice of degrading civil GPS signals will be phased out within a decade

Using my notebook GPS, I can say ( so far) that it has been within a few yards.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #20 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:48:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Naso
It can be few meters when you are lucky, usually is in the range of 200-300 meters average induced error, in vertical, too.

That usually depends on the kind of civilian receiver you use. I've got a hand held GPS that I use when I go fishing and it's accurate within a few meters.

Ack-Ack

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:54:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by NUKE
Naso, I know that civilain GPS access has always have a few meters resolution, but I didn't think that has ever changed in war or not. I have never heard of complaints from any source that the GPS system was degraded.

The U.S. government didn't 'degrade' it, they just don't allow access to the GPS system the military uses. Civilian use of the GPS system wasn't curtailed in anyway during the war. Accuracy of the GPS (at least in with civilian use) is pretty much dependent on the receiver. Some are excellent and are accurate within a few meters, while some are not so good and are accurate within a few dozen meters but there is a hard limit on how accurate a civilian GPS receiver can be. You're not going to find a civilian GPS receiver with the accuracy of a military one since the GPS signals the civilians use won't allow it.

Ack-Ack

Naso · « **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:59:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The U.S. government didn't 'degrade' it, they just don't allow access to the GPS system the military uses. Civilian use of the GPS system wasn't curtailed in anyway during the war. Accuracy of the GPS (at least in with civilian use) is pretty much dependent on the receiver. Some are excellent and are accurate within a few meters, while some are not so good and are accurate within a few dozen meters but there is a hard limit on how accurate a civilian GPS receiver can be. You're not going to find a civilian GPS receiver with the accuracy of a military one since the GPS signals the civilians use won't allow it.

Ack-Ack

There are actually 2 signals (or channels), one is crypted and only for US military, the other open and for civvies.

The government DID degrade it, but apparently, since '96, decided to reduce the degradation to few yards.

It retain, anyway, the ability to modifiy the error or even negate the channel, if needed by national interests.

Check the quote by Nuke.

P.S.
I am curious, when Galileo started?

Official link:

http://www.esa.int/export/esaSA/GGG0H750NDC_navigation_0.html

AKIron · « **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2003, 07:49:45 AM »

Build and launch your own then. Plenty of room up there and apparently the needed frequency already allocated. Just don't expect the US to subsidize or pay for use.

Naso · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:00:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
Build and launch your own then. Plenty of room up there and apparently the needed frequency already allocated. Just don't expect the US to subsidize or pay for use.

Infact US is already paying for it, since decided to reduce the artificial error to oppose the development, I guess this is not for good will, but to mantain the edge and the control.

AKIron · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:05:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Naso
Infact US is already paying for it, since decided to reduce the artificial error to oppose the development, I guess this is not for good will, but to mantain the edge and the control.

Nothing I read in that article indicated that the US is funding "Galileo". Towards the end of the article it mentions how the cost is to be divided among European countries. Where do you get info that the US is paying?

Naso · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:27:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
Nothing I read in that article indicated that the US is funding "Galileo". Towards the end of the article it mentions how the cost is to be divided among European countries. Where do you get info that the US is paying?

Eh eh eh, my young friend, not everything that happens in the world can be read in an article, something the use of braincells helps.

There are many ways to pay something, the more direct is to commit funds, one of the others, as to the case of GPS, is to pay the maintenance of your own system and improving the service, to reduce the market demand of another system controlled by a third party.

Got it?

AKIron · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:35:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Naso
Eh eh eh, my young friend, not everything that happens in the world can be read in an article, something the use of braincells helps.

There are many ways to pay something, the more direct is to commit funds, one of the others, as to the case of GPS, is to pay the maintenance of your own system and improving the service, to reduce the market demand of another system controlled by a third party.

Got it?

Young? I wish.

The US built, launched, and has operated the ONLY GPS system in the world long before the EU started making noise about their own. Of course we're going to maintain and upgrade.

NUKE · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:44:51 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Naso
Infact US is already paying for it, since decided to reduce the artificial error to oppose the development, I guess this is not for good will, but to mantain the edge and the control.

Naso, who ever said the GPS system was built for "good will"? It's a miltary system and the US decided to let civilians use it after the companies that built the system complained about it.

Now how does the US giving increased accuracy matter to the EU system? If the EU system is economically viable and offers a better system, then it will succed, if not it will fail.

Are you saying the the US shouldn't increase the availible accuracy just so the EU system will have a better chance?

It seems the EU bickering has done more to stop the system than the US GPS system.

The EU disputes regarding profits is one small example of why I said before that the EU is a powder keg waiting to explode in europe one day. Think of what will happen when the EU has a real dispute between it's members.

AKIron · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:46:19 AM »

Amendment to my last post.

Forgot about the Russian system GLONASS, but who uses it besides the Russians?