rshubert, come on over, let's talk..

[beet1e]

Originally posted by SlapShot
"What I noticed in Chess was that the whiners who whined about the rules were the ones who were most inept ...

Yeah ... like that whine you just posted about being rammed in your goon by another goon and making a plea/assumption that HT could/should do something about it.

You didn't like his style of gameplay, so lets ask HT to change something to adjust to your idea of what correct is.

Ya know beet1e ... in all these threads, you have been doing a good job of making your point and counter-points, but with this post, I think that you have just exposed your King to checkmate.

Hehe, the goon whine was a bit of fun. The annoying thing was that I slowed down believing that only he would die - such was the scenario modelled in WB - I had never seen it like that in AH.  Besides, if you knew anything about chess, you'd know that you cannot "expose your king to checkmate" or even to check, as that would be an illegal move. If a player's only available moves exposed him to check, the situation is known as Stalemate.

But Gentlemen and Creamo, you're missing the essential point. It's not what the best gameplay is, as this is subjective. The REAL point is why the furballers should hang out in the MA instead of the DA, and then as non-strat players call for changes - to strat.

Creamo - was just kidding in the opening of the above para. I'll bring you some nice vodka when I come to the US - hopefully later this year.

[Zippatuh]

Originally posted by najdorf
In the end, this is a combat flight sim and furballing is it's ultimate expression.

Simple and correct.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by SlapShot


Yeah ... like that whine you just posted about being rammed in your goon by another goon and making a plea/assumption that HT could/should do something about it.

You didn't like his style of gameplay, so lets ask HT to change something to adjust to your idea of what correct is.

The classic Beet1e post was the one where he squeaked about people lowering their engine sounds so they could hear incoming enemy planes better.


Ack-Ack

[Furious]

People who don't like to dogfight, don't like to dogfight because they are not good at it.  To be good at it is very difficult.  Keeping track of 3-5 bogies as well as 3-5 friendlies in your head all the while fighting the bad guy right in front of you or right behind you can be quite frustrating.

But the folks that can't DF still want to feel as if they have some impact on the game, so they kill buildings and auger into fuel dumps and declare this "the chess match".

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Zippatuh
Simple and correct.

I will grant that it is simple.  Correct?  that's the soul of the discussion.

[Furious]

Originally posted by TW9
Is there not such a thing as liking everything the game has to offer? Personally, I like dogfights especially w/ my squad, i like porking bases too, which btw i dont purposely try to kill myself in the process, I like milk running factories to pad my score, i like sinking cv's w/ my "not-so-suicidal" lancs, i like vulching w/ my chog, i like spawn camping with my panz, i like bringing tiger into tank war in gv city as well as furball island, i like bringing jabo into those places and i like to intercept jabo's goign there too.. I like sneaking bases on trinity and pizza and i like winning resets..

Amazing how many of those things you could do offline.

...but if you are having fun, more power to ya.  AH is all about fun afterall.


F.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Furious
People who don't like to dogfight, don't like to dogfight because they are not good at it.  To be good at it is very difficult.  Keeping track of 3-5 bogies as well as 3-5 friendlies in your head all the while fighting the bad guy right in front of you or right behind you can be quite frustrating.

But the folks that can't DF still want to feel as if they have some impact on the game, so they kill buildings and auger into fuel dumps and declare this "the chess match".

I don't know about that.  Isn't it entirely possible that there is more than one way to play the game? Wouldn't you agree??  I wonder what impact furballing has on the game as a whole--it seems like an individual sport to me.  Real fighter pilots don't do it-they fly around in groups and sneak up on people, and put a bullet in 'em.  This "jousting in the air" crap that goes on in AH would last about five minutes in the real world.  Real fighter pilots would not get into that situation.  Too much chance of dying horribly.

Not that I'm saying that I have any better ideas.  Frankly, the reason we get such good results from our bombing/strafing runs is the lack of fear of dying.  If all I got was one life in this game, I would drop my ord from thousands of feet higher, believe me!  And I wouldn't have hundreds of kills (and deaths) in GVs.

The real reason for this is numbers.  Not high numbers, but LOW numbers.  A 15 plane misssion has to try to take out a base against solid defense that includes "robo ack".  A real WW2 air force would use dozens of planes for the same job.  we don't typically have the excess personnel available for that kind of mission due to the furball factor and the need to defend our bases.

If we get back to the basic argument, Apache thinks that "suicide dweebs" should not affect the game outcome.  You seem to think they suicide intentionally to increase the damage done to the target.  I don't think it does--I've had planes crash on top of the field gun or GV I was manning without damage.  Lassie thinks that anyone who spends time taking bases is wasting his (lassie's) time.  Nopoop thinks that ACM is the be-all, end-all of existence.  I think that the strategic game is a lot of fun, and I play that way.  I think furballing is thumb-candy, but I like candy, too.  I just can't live on candy only.

I don't insist that nopoop, Apache, and lassie play the strat game with me.  Why do they insist that the strat game be changed to match their convenience in the furball game?  I think that attitude, considering the availabilty of an arena that has no strat, is childish.  If the hardness of the targets in the MA were changed to match their desires, people might move to the CT.  Would the Burger King (BK) boys then move there (for the target rich environment) and then demand that that arena be changed, too?  

The specious argument that there aren't enough people in the duelling arena doesn't carry much weight if you suppose that ALL the furballers would go there.  They stay where the numbers are so they can vulch fields, shoot down heavy jabos, M3s, and goons.  And that's really ok--hell, it's better than ok--by me.  I just would like it if they coordinated their activity a little bit more with the strat game.  Note:  that is not a demand or even a request.

I'll tell you what.  Next time you guys get on, check to see if I'm on.  If so, send me a message on Channel 1 as to where your furball is taking place.  I will respond accordingly, and avoid ruining your fun.  Really.  Trust me.  I would NEVER use that information to get a few friends together to bomb the crap out of your field.  Really.

[Nifty]

Apache, forget it.  No one wants to listen to you because you're actually making some semblance of sense, and even more so to the point, you're not actually trying to make this a fur vs strat argument.  That'd take all the fun out of the mindless bantering that's going on.

Aside from the suiciders having a disproportionate effect on the arena, there is no wrong or right to the fur vs strat "debate."   It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi (or vice versa.)  It's purely a matter of taste.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Nifty
Apache, forget it.  No one wants to listen to you because you're actually making some semblance of sense, and even more so to the point, you're not actually trying to make this a fur vs strat argument.  That'd take all the fun out of the mindless bantering that's going on.

Aside from the suiciders having a disproportionate effect on the arena, there is no wrong or right to the fur vs strat "debate."   It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi (or vice versa.)  It's purely a matter of taste.

Nifty, the difference is this:  The coke drinkers aren't trying to change the formula for pepsi.  The furballers want to change the rules of the game to accomodate their desires.  That is my objection.

[Furious]

Originally posted by rshubert
...I'll tell you what.  Next time you guys get on, check to see if I'm on.  If so, send me a message on Channel 1 as to where your furball is taking place.  I will respond accordingly, and avoid ruining your fun.  Really.  Trust me.  I would NEVER use that information to get a few friends together to bomb the crap out of your field.  Really.

or better yet, come try shooting us down.  

But if you have already admitted to yourself that you can't compete against "live" humans, by all means have at the buildings.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Nifty
Apache, forget it.  No one wants to listen to you because you're actually making some semblance of sense, and even more so to the point, you're not actually trying to make this a fur vs strat argument.  That'd take all the fun out of the mindless bantering that's going on.

Aside from the suiciders having a disproportionate effect on the arena, there is no wrong or right to the fur vs strat "debate."   It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi (or vice versa.)  It's purely a matter of taste.

Thanks Nifty. At least someone gets my point. Heck, even HT himself saw the problem. And I quote from a thread in December:

On Suicide bombing.
Been toying with the idea that ordanance has little or no effect if you are not still living for a given period of time (around 30 secs) after impact.


What do you gents think?

HiTech

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Furious
or better yet, come try shooting us down.  

But if you have already admitted to yourself that you can't compete against "live" humans, by all means have at the buildings.

There are plenty of live humans at the fields I bomb.  Plenty.  They may not be up to your standard of pure Winged Killer Knights, but they're enough competition for a loser like me.  (sniff-sniff, if only I could fly, sniff-sniff)

Y'all really need to get over yourselves.  Really.  Competititveness doesn't mean you have to belittle the opposition.  That's what children do.

[muckmaw]

Originally posted by Apache
Thanks Nifty. At least someone gets my point. Heck, even HT himself saw the problem. And I quote from a thread in December:

HT never did get around to fixing that. I guess it was not that big of a problem to him. Either that or there was just no time with AH2 work to do.

*shrugs*

[nopoop]

Originally posted by muckmaw
HT never did get around to fixing that.

I think your right Muck, though I would think some sort of fix would be coming with the next version.

[Samiam]

You guys can't really be claiming that there's any true strategic challenge to the base capture aspect of AH.

That would require that:
[list=1]

• There is a true challenge to devising and achieving strategic goals, and
• That an opponent exists who is chiefly motivated to deny you those goals and achieve their own goals.

Let's ponder the main strategic challenges: Capture base. Pork fuel at enemy front-line bases. Hmm. Rocket science.

Let's ponder the brilliant methods of achieving those objectives: Create mission with 30 Jabo's and 4 goons - ambush nearby base, or send two or three suicide P38s to pork fuel. Astounding.

The most brilliant generals in AH are those sophisticated enough to figure out that if your country has 26 fields, the imminent loser has 3 fields, and the third has 32, your country should stop fighting the loser lest you help the third country win.

I'm glad some have brains that big; if only they'd stop SHOUTING on the country channel.

Is there a challenge in capturing a heavily defended base. Absolutely. Is it fun. Sure.

I can even conceed that it's fun to  do some swarming base-hopping. I don't see it, but I conceed that there are those who do.

I even like the occasional challenge of taking out an ostwind, or bombing a VH (better, a shore battery).

But to claim there's some great strategy involved, in my opinion, is absurd.


The ultimate thrill in AH is similar to that of golf. Are you "on"? Can you make the correct dicision at the moment and execute? Can you be better than the next guy this time?

When you realize that the guy you thought you had cold is in the process of reversing you, must be a hot stick, and you are going to find out if you are up to the task. That's what keeps me coming back.

You strat guys: When was the last time in the MA that you had some grand plan for winning a reset, were in the middle of executing it only to realize that the other coutry had their own plan for winning the reset and were foiling you, causing you counter their plan and adapt yours?

Right. Never. That's not the way the MA works. There's no chess-like strategy involved.

Just my nickels worth.