rshubert, come on over, let's talk..

[Revvin]

furballs in the MA are normally nothing to do with ACM, chess or whatever other grand comparisons you care to make, it's normally just gangbang the guy who's lowest forming a conga line shooting over each others shoulders while the other team tries to do the same. Chess? more like Snakes and ladders or a game of Kerplunk!

[rshubert]

Thank you for bringing it out to any who are conceptually challenged.

And the strat game is played the same way.  Misdirection, bluff, move, countermove.  Wait for them to commit to an action, then cut off their heads.  Application of force in the appropriate place to achieve an intermediate or final goal.  I really get off on it.

And oh by the way, lassie, the only difference in speed of action during a strat mission is that you have to be patient while travelling to the enemy base.  At the sharp end, it gets pretty intense.  Those with no SA get killed by the ack, by the defenders, or by the floor rushing up and smacking them in the face.

But go right ahead and do your own thing.  Just don't try to change the way I have to do mine.  It makes me feel like you are trying to manipulate my gameplay by changing the rules that you find inconvenient.

[Fariz]

Originally posted by Samiam
You guys can't really be claiming that there's any true strategic challenge to the base capture aspect of AH.

You can capture 20 bases, and make your side situation hopeless in result. You can get 5 fields out of 50 and log out knowing that your side is winning, despite the fact that it is still 45 bases to take.

Trick is to a) know what to take b) know when to take c) take it. It involves genaral planning, strategy and tactical consideration. MA is a wargame, question is only if you can or can't see it. AH is played by people and it adds another chaotic elemint, but the more people playing the game, the more predictable it is, because normally big systems tends to organize toward the possible middle of its states than toward the exremes.

[Fariz]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
ACM centers around capitalizing on the mistakes made by others.  You finally "get" it when you realize that it was your own fault you were shot down whether the fight was 1v1 or 50v1; at some point you made a mistake that led to your death.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Sure, in a systems which are 100% clear of random component it is true. But AH has some randomization in a form of lag, warps, and evil wifes

[nopoop]

In WB when I left finding a "fight" was pretty much history. You have to have numbers. 70 pilots primetime in a map the size of the Baltic doesn't make a fight. A decent place for the small fights. There are good small fights there. On a par with the CT here, just add green jello and mush.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of prefered method of "play" by years flown in online sims.  Strategests, furballers and do-it-alls.

Strategests while having a higher initial population have a higher dropoff rate as time goes by.  The danger being that the strategest slowly becomes "realist". A realist from what I've seen has a short life cycle because nothing is quite real enough.

Slowly but surely nothing measures up. Fun becomes a rare event. A constant state of frustration because of icons, game strat, damage models, flight models, engine controls, strat control over a players actions...on and on. While discussing how many can dance on the head of a pin with FM charts, ballistic studies they forget how to have fun move on to another game "The Holy Grail" or find something else to do with there time.

There are no greybeard strategests, those that remain evolve into do-it-alls.

Everyone is a furballer when they first sign up online. "I'm gonna shoot someone" is why they came. In no time they learn that they get eatin alive on an online sim. High initial dropoff rate with a furballer. Getting your butt handed to you everytime you engage is rough. He either quits and goes back to fighting the box, takes up drawing and painting, or finds a way to NOT get whupped everytime he takes off. Big move of people to the strategy side of the game or to a Hunter squads to learn the craft of B&Z.

A year or two in, the time line becomes hazy. The strategests have either become frustrated realists and are off looking for the grail, exited the Main in favor of Scenarios, or become very proficient at there craft and are dabbling once again in the furball. The Hunters are proficient at hunting and either exit the Main in favor of Scenarios or the CT,  or dabble on occasion in the fur.

Both on their return see it in a different way than they did initially. They may continue to dabble or might just make a profession of it.

In the end, when the beards are grey, most look at the fur differently then they did when they were n00bies. Might not be a full time profession, but the "essence" of it isn't lost to them.

Unless bitten by the dreaded "realist" bug. Revvin has the classic early signs of it. Unless AH2 does something for him I'm afraid his long term prognosis is bleak.

I would guess if you put the timeline out at over six years, the majority of those still flyin would be furballers and hunters. With a smaller proportion of do-at alls.

What do you think ??

[Revvin]

You guys sure like pidgeon holing. Nopoop you really should'nt make such generalisations if you don't know a person. If you had done your homework you'd see I've often argued against moves in the two online sims I've played against those who want 'realism' but only on their terms, silly things like wanting no icons when the graphics of the sims we play and the hardware we play them on are not up to displaying no icons. I was quite happy with the strat we had and the way it worked but slowly but surely that strat has been watered down, it's the few vocal whiners and their snide pissy little names for those that don't fly their way that will eventually burn me out, the way this community has deteriorated so that discussions turn into name calling and pidgeon holing of players showing a lack of tolerance and knowledge of how that player feels about the game.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by nopoop
In WB when I left finding a "fight" was pretty much history. You have to have numbers. 70 pilots primetime in a map the size of the Baltic doesn't make a fight.  

Nopoop, you make one of my points for me. If I were to log to AH in the morning hours here, guess how many people I would find online?  Probably about 70. It gradually creeps up to around 150 in the late afternoon. So we just don't have those furball numbers you guys have. Also, if you look at Viper's 2nd film in his furballing thread, you'll see that it's pretty much a vulchfest. There are so many people there that the list becomes scrollable. And the point of that is that Viper was never in any danger throughout that sortie. Here in Euroland, you might only get 4-5 guys engaged in a coordinated effort to capture a field, as happened in Viper's film, but you are much more likely to have 2-3 guys come in from another field with alt and create real danger. But with 25 of you gangbanging? Probably unlikely. What's causing those furballers in Viper's film to work together is the common aim of racking up kills. My analogy has always been the crowded train platform - the only common aim is to get a seat on the train. No-one gives a fig about anyone else on the train platform.

Revvin - ROFL!!!! Snakes & Ladders!!!! I creased up when I read that - LOLOLOLOL....

[nopoop]

Originally posted by Revvin
I was quite happy with the strat we had and the way it worked but slowly but surely that strat has been watered down

Revvin are you talking strat in this game, or strat over there ??

Strat over there should be concerned with getting people through the door.

Been here a year and the only strat change I've seen is the implementing of "zone" strat in pizza and trinity. Is that the change your talking about ?? Is the implementing of zone strat watering down, or adding to the equation ??

Strat seems to work pretty well here from someone on the outside looking in strat wise. Whole lot of people seem to enjoy it. With the addition of a couple of tweeks involving fuel, CV groups and a redistribution of bases in trinity it would be even better. Or would that be a further watering down of the model ??

[Furious]

Originally posted by beet1e
...But Furious, again I must ask the question. Please answer it this time: If you don't want to see non-DFers having impact on the game, and if you don't want to see the "chess match", then given that you and your ilk of DFers are so great in number, why don't you simply move to the DA? You would never have to deal with the chess match guys ever again.

First off, I do not believe you have ever asked me this question, therefore your implication that I am unwilling to answer is kinda BS.

Second.  I don't really care what you do, as long as you have fun.  Just as you shouldn't care what I do to have fun.  

Where the problem lies is here; In a furball, I can spoil the fun of AH for only one person at a time.  One guy in a suicide typhy can ruin the fun for a whole bunch of people at a time.  The simplistic way in which fuel availability is modeled compounds this problem.

I have never gone into a furball with the idea of not surviving.  Many strat folks are fully intent on dying.  There is a problem with this.  Personally, I would like to see a perk system for ordinance, as I believe this would encourage folks to survive or at least penalize them for suicide missions.

Lastly, I like to play in the MA.  I like killing strat guys just as much as I like killing DF guys.  HT is not dumb and realizes that some players need to be able to do the things they are capable of doing.  In this case I am speaking of strat.  If there was no strat, most folks would just circle their own field or quit.

If this were an RTS, i would by the idea that field capture was a "chess game".  It's not.  It's a simulator and blowing up simulated buildings can never hold a candle to blowing up simulated planes piloted by real people.  

But, like I said, do whatever you have fun doing.


F.

[nopoop]

Originally posted by beet1e
Nopoop, you make one of my points for me. If I were to log to AH in the morning hours here, guess how many people I would find online?  Probably about 70.

When you think about it, beating each other to a bloody pulp here on a weekly basis is kinda silly, though I thoroughly enjoy it.

There's 500 up when I log on..

We play different games...

[Revvin]

Originally posted by nopoop
Strat seems to work pretty well here from someone on the outside looking in strat wise.

You might want to try flying bombers for a while to understand.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Grimm
I always like the Arena with an Arena concept.  

 

The only problem is see with the arena within an arena concept is the whines that will start when theres a reset and the bases within this 'arena within an arena' are captured thereby ruining the whole purpose of it.  I've always felt that there should be a seperate arena for those that want to purely furball, very much like the old Fightertown in AW.  This way no one will intrude on their fun, which would happen in the MA.  

For a while, some of the old AWers that came over in the Exodus tried in making the DA into that and for a couple of weeks succeeded but it soon died out because they couldn't spread the word out and attract new bodies.  Maybe we'll see an arena like this when AH2 comes out sometime this fall.  Maybe a bunch of the furball purists can get together with HT and ask him to make the dueling arena into one, even go as far as renaming the Dueling Arena to FighterTown or something like that.  The name change alone would attract people wondering what it was and who knows, maybe the purists can convert them and convince them to stay.


Ack-Ack

[nopoop]

I take an A20 up now and then but drop the hangy things right after I suck the gear up..and I don't use it for what it is designed for..

Do you feel the addition of a more "realistic" bomb site mechanism added or detracted ?

Does the difficulty, or "time" needed to familierize oneself with bombing with current targeting system with success restrict the numbers of those that might enjoy bombers, possibly cutting down on the new blood ?

Would the addition of "otto" "buff tuff" and all the baggage that entails with those concessions add or detract from the current scheme of things ?

I'll agree the bombers are for the most part the forgotten stepchild in the sims I've played.

As a buffer, what's missing, taking of course into account we're talking about the Main arena.

[Revvin]

Your mask of sincerity slipped with the use of the word "concessions", as I said try flying bombers for a while and hit the strat targets and maybe you'll understand.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by nopoop

I would guess if you put the timeline out at over six years, the majority of those still flyin would be furballers and hunters. With a smaller proportion of do-at alls.

What do you think ??

I think you'd be more suprised at the outcome than you think and I'm sure the results won't be as you hoped they would.  I think the majority of the 'vets' those with 6 years or more are the ones that you call 'do-it-alls', which for some reason you seem to look down on as well.

What I see going on is the clash between those guys that have been here since Beta and those that came later.  Those that have been here since Beta seem to have more of the mano y mano mindset, while those that didn't start AH during the Beta seem to have a different view of things.  Those that came to AH after the beta usually migrated from other games where there were two different styles of game play and their playing now reflects those.  This inevitably led to a culture clash with the AH 'Elitists' who found their game to be evolving and a sense of impotency set in amongst them which led to the near panic we see now amongst them.  It's sad because both camps actually compliment each other and feed each other in the MA food chain.

Maybe it's because I started out in AW and remember some epic fights for the N bases at the Big Pond or flying P-38 attack runs from C83 to VOD to tweak the nipples of the Az and Bzlanders or maybe it was those gut splitting laughter missions like raids to the Spitfire factory that started me on enjoying those mud moving sorties.  The bottom line is it was fun.


Ack-Ack