Author Topic: k/t needs to be taken with a pinch of NaCl  (Read 4627 times)

Offline BNM

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« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2003, 07:44:43 PM »
Wow you really are dense. Even my 9 year old can understand basic logic...

Offline NoBaddy

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« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2003, 10:39:11 PM »
Beet1e...

I just noticed your what was at the end of your signature and felt the need to comment...

"Game changes to tweak features, nudge settings and to otherwise influence gameplay as to benefit a certain playing style or group of players, to the detriment of all others = BAD. "

Trinity was 'tweaked' (and possibly the desert should be) to deal with an unrealized detrimental impact that the design had on one segement of game play. It was not done to "benefit a certain playing style or group of players...". It was done to correct an unintended inequity in the design. Generally speaking, what was done should have little or no impact on the other aspects of game play. If anything, strat players will have about 20% more objects to bomb than in the first version.

On another note, the ground pounders will notice that there have been some 'tweaks' to tank town also. This is one of the positives about being able to go back and change things. Now, if this rotating terrain crap will just get straightened out so the the damned terrain will come up....
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Offline nopoop

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« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2003, 11:04:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Trinity was 'tweaked' (and possibly the desert should be) to deal with an unrealized detrimental impact that the design had on one segement of game play. It was not done to "benefit a certain playing style or group of players..."


Well NB I understand and applaud the changes forthcoming but Beet1e will never understand that.

If he did, he wouldn't have anything to whine about.

Well..

Except for La7's that for some reason continually ruin his day..

Which I don't understand either..

But nobody appointed me "understand Beet1e" so..

I don't really care.

Toodle pip.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #123 on: June 15, 2003, 03:53:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BNM
Wow you really are dense. Even my 9 year old can understand basic logic...
BNM. My post was worded incorrectly. I said that the buffs would originally have to fly away from home base. Of course they do. What I meant was that they would have to fly away from the eventual target. The LA7 cherrypick problem does not only affect buffs - jabos are easy targets too. But on the Pizza map, with fields more widely spaced and many at very high altitude, it's much less of a problem. The typical cherrypicker doesn't have the attention span to mount the sort of attack you might see on the children's maps.

But, BNM, I see you are one of those pitiful individuals who cannot discuss a point without resorting to personal insults, so I am finished talking to you. Besides, I've read your profile and seen what interests you, and as far as I'm concerned you are the last person qualified to be spouting about "logic".

Nobaddy -
Quote
I just noticed your what was at the end of your signature and felt the need to comment...
I wasn't talking about changes to Trinity. I see Nopoop fell into the trap of assuming what I was talking about, but it was not Trinity. My sig refers to those insidious strat changes that the furballers want - those "temporary" tweaks, alterations or "nudges" on any map, which have only one purpose - to change the pattern of gameplay in their favour. Things like increasing fuel bunker and hangar "hardness", perking bombs, and hardening the radar factory at HQ, decreasing rebuild times and the like. They will cite the fact that a 10% increase in "hardness" is not much, but it might need more planes and/or more trips to complete the mission, and the jabos and buffs will be working against the clock. The end result will be that jabos and buffs simply give up their erstwhile tactics - and that's what the furballers really want. What I really don't like about it is that those changes will get forgotten, and "temporary nudges" become permanent changes.

Nopoop also said
Quote
If he did, he wouldn't have anything to whine about.
ROFL! Well that's a bit rich coming from him, or from any other furballer, since they are the ones to be advancing all the proposals for "temporary" changes and are the ones that whine the loudest to HTC to have them made. Consider the following scenario: Enemy buffs are threatening your HQ, and if successful will black out your countries radar screen.
  • My Solution: Take up a buff killer like a P47, fly to the HQ area and defend it by killing the buffs, thereby keeping radar and the map alive.
  • Furballers' Solution: Whine to HTC to have the game changed. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: June 15, 2003, 04:01:51 AM by beet1e »

Offline Hornet

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« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2003, 09:47:12 AM »
beet1e squealed:
Quote
The problem with the smaller, children's maps is that the fields are so close together that they give rise to opportunist LA7 cherrypickers.


yesss! After 3 pages of chaff the famous la7 death squads make their entrance!
Hornet

Offline NoBaddy

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« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2003, 10:46:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by nopoop
Well NB I understand and applaud the changes forthcoming but Beet1e will never understand that.

If he did, he wouldn't have anything to whine about.

Well..

Except for La7's that for some reason continually ruin his day..



Poops...

Hey, you never know. Perhaps he can be made to see reason. Hell, as far as La7's go...I whine about them myself (but, usually only to myself :D).


Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I wasn't talking about changes to Trinity. I see Nopoop fell into the trap of assuming what I was talking about, but it was not Trinity. My sig refers to those insidious strat changes that the furballers want - those "temporary" tweaks, alterations or "nudges" on any map, which have only one purpose - to change the pattern of gameplay in their favour. Things like increasing fuel bunker and hangar "hardness", perking bombs, and hardening the radar factory at HQ, decreasing rebuild times and the like. They will cite the fact that a 10% increase in "hardness" is not much, but it might need more planes and/or more trips to complete the mission, and the jabos and buffs will be working against the clock. The end result will be that jabos and buffs simply give up their erstwhile tactics - and that's what the furballers really want. What I really don't like about it is that those changes will get forgotten, and "temporary nudges" become permanent changes.


As far as I know, there have been no changes to the game to benefit one specific group over another. Additionally, I am unable to think of any "temporary" changes that have been made. Changes are made when the game system becomes imbalanced. This is normally done after new 'features' are implemented in the game.

I will cite specifics. With the implementation of the base resupply system, I could completely repair an airfield with 1 m3 loaded with supplies as the guys that bombed it flew back over to do a BDA (COD!! I loved doin' that!!! :D). I could do the same with a goon to HQ and repair the damage to radar before the bombers had exited the sector.

Taking your tack on this subject, changes to these things should not have been made. They ONLY benefit the bomber guys.

The ease with which a single player can trash the fuel at a field versus the difficulty multiple players have in repairing it is severely out of balance. It is a situation that should be corrected. Not to benefit a single group of players, but to benefit the entire game.

Bottomline, you appear to be doing the same thing that you accuse the furballers of doing....viewing the problem myopically. One might suggest that you attempt to step back and view the "big picture" with objectivity :).
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2003, 11:13:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Nice try, BNM, but that's not what I was getting at.

The problem with the smaller, children's maps is that the fields are so close together that they give rise to opportunist LA7 cherrypickers. Gawd knows I've seen enough of that, and it's one of the reasons I like Trinity and the Pizza map. Now I don't know how effective an LA7 is against a buff, as I fly neither. But even if Mr. Cherrypick chooses a mount other than an LA7, the reality is that he and his buds will be making those 5 minute opportunist runs to whack the buffs while they are at low alt. So that straight line you have drawn won't be applicable. The buffs would have to fly away from the eventual target initially to gain enough alt to meke safe transit of the en route fields prior to reaching the target.

Hope that clears it up. ;)


Any plane that can get alt above bombers are cherry pickers, La-7s don't own the exclusive rights to this distinction.

You don't fly bombers and you don't fly La-7s, yet you feel confident enough to make this statement. I suggest that you spend some time in an La-7 trying to pick off bombers. What you  will find is that they are horrible against bombers. Their guns suck, which require you to get in REAL CLOSE, and with the deadlyness of the guns on the bombers, results are usually not good.

Also, to continue the discussion of closer fields and bombers getting jumped. What you might be forgetting is that if there is a furball between two fields, those that are thinking of flying to intercept any of those bombers, and fly thru/around the furball will more than likely die, thus giving the bombers the time to climb to altitude.
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Offline nopoop

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« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2003, 12:17:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
The ease with which a single player can trash the fuel at a field versus the difficulty multiple players have in repairing it is severely out of balance. It is a situation that should be corrected. Not to benefit a single group of players, but to benefit the entire game.

Bottomline, you appear to be doing the same thing that you accuse the furballers of doing....viewing the problem myopically. One might suggest that you attempt to step back and view the "big picture" with objectivity :).


Well that makes perfect sense to me. While us furballers are quite vocal in our comments on "game" issues the main issues we squeak about are valid to the game.

Now Beet1e, give me that wall'o'text on how the fuel porkage issue shouldn't be addressed.

Maybe show a film..

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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2003, 01:14:59 PM »
Hornet! - ...and you're still here reading my thread. :)  I am flattered. :D

Slapshot. I did say earlier that the cherrypicker might not necessarily be an LA7, and the target might not necessarily be a buff. I said that jabos would be easy targets too. I see your point that with those closer fields a furball might erupt, and provide cover for a buff to make good his escape, but if you were to play during Euro hours, when there can be as few as 70 people online, you'll see that the situation can be very different.

Nobaddy -
Quote
As far as I know, there have been no changes to the game to benefit one specific group over another. Additionally, I am unable to think of any "temporary" changes that have been made. Changes are made when the game system becomes imbalanced. This is normally done after new 'features' are implemented in the game.
I've seen what happens when one particular group of players lobbies the game producers to have minor changes applied. It happened in WB. The LW guys would whine and whine, and eventually they got their way and had a 109E that could outturn a Spit 1a - complete, unadulterated BS. I know of an entire squad that left WB on account of that one change. Here's another: One day, you could bomb a target with a 500# bomb, and it would go down. The next day, a 1600# bomb was not enough to destroy the same target - and then we would hear all this crap about "having to hit certain parts" of a target. Lazs dubbed this concept the WB "wheel-o-settings" - lol. The game just became a beta version. And I gave it up.

You're all for balance? Fine, and thanks for your explanation on that, although as I pointed out before, my sig does not relate to the Trinity map in particular. But if we're going to have balance, then I think that with all the furballer bluster about hardening this and that, we need a balanced view which means hearing from other people who do not favour such changes - at least not for the reasons given by those proposing such changes. You're probably right, and maybe there have been no changes applied purely to benefit one particular type of gameplay or group of players. But I want to do my part to see that it never happens.

Still on the subject of arena balance, some people want changes to AH, but I don't think that "arena balance" is their objective at all. If we had a "balanced" arena, then why are the planes that form a steamroller always from the same list? (P51/YAK/Spit/LA7) Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked. We do however hear the call for 100# bombs to be perked. If we really are on a quest to have a balanced arena, then we would have an RPS. Even Apache from Nopoop's squad believes that. The first week of an RPS would be misery for me, heaven for others. But at least we would have balance - with all the planes being used, and not just the usual P51/Yak/La7/Spit subset. But no. People argue that they want to be able to fly what they want when they want. So we have 1945 every day. The early war planes don't stand much of a chance if they venture away from home base, so they stay in the hangar. Is this your vision of a "balanced" arena???

So I stand by my sig. Read it at face value, instead of searching for some nonexistent apocryphal meaning or agenda. I hope that you continue to be right about none of those "temporary" changes being made. But I also hope that the reason is that HTC sees the folly of kow-towing to a particularly vociferous group of players, and not just that they're too busy working on AH2.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2003, 03:18:36 PM »
"Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked."

I am an avid La-7 pilot (I don't care what people say), but ending the last tour and the majority of this tour, I have flown the Spit V exclusivly. Trying to get the feel/taste of early war planes.

Well ... I can honestly say that the Spit V is far more dangerous than an La-7 could ever think of being in a furball situation. The La-7s, unless its the likes of Shane, are laughable in a furball. Also, the La-7 barely maintains a 1/1 KD. Here are the top 3 planes that I have killed furballing.

Spitfire Mk IX 35
P-51D  33
La-7  25

I fart in the direction of La-7s and the other so called "uber" planes ... so no ... you will never hear me call for any of those planes to be perked. They are just too easy (as any plane is) unless they are in the hands of an expert.

So please, lets not turn this thread into an La-7 / "uber" plane whine at the same time.

See my sig ... Drex says it all. How to become a better pilot ... die alot, watch the experts, and fly the planes that kill ya the most (at least it has worked for me).
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Offline nopoop

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« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2003, 03:24:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by nopoop
Now Beet1e, give me that wall'o'text on how the fuel porkage issue shouldn't be addressed


Well I got the wall'o'text but never got an answer.

Your usual tack when someone actually has a valid question that "might" not sit with your agenda..

Quote
Originally posted by Beet1e
The early war planes don't stand much of a chance if they venture away from home base


I take my chances in early war rides. Just make it so the fuel isn't porked so damn easily so and early bird can fly somewhere and those early birds will be more prevalent. Might become a trend. You prove my point with your very own words. Amazing how that works.

Check my sig. Your quote is actually blowing hot air..but I'll add the other one also.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2003, 03:52:00 PM by nopoop »
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2003, 04:03:07 PM »
Hi Slapshot,

Nice post, and nice name dropping. My stats are not unlike yours, in that the fighters I kill the most are also P51D, Spit ix, LA7. If you look back over my stats, you'll find that those three planes are in the top five fighter types that I have killed, tour after tour after tour after tour. Why is this? Is it because I'm good at killing P51/La7/Spit ix?  Well that isn't the point at all. What these stats tell me is that these planes are the most frequently chosen ones, and are therefore what I run into the most. And that tells me that the arena is not balanced, not that I didn't already know. Now a guy like Apache is smart, and sees that this is a bad thing - that's why he feels an RPS would be a good thing. And I agree with him

Nopoop said
Quote
Well I got the wall'o'text but never got an answer.
LOL - 4 paragraphs. Oh yeah, I forgot - it's your furballer limited attention span kicking in.
Quote
Now Beet1e, give me that wall'o'text on how the fuel porkage issue shouldn't be addressed
I don't understand your use of the negative in that sentence....

...so what isn't it I should not be telling you about how fuel porkage shouldn't be addressed? :confused:

You want film? I saw this one - an entire movie about fuel porkage - LOL http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88997

Offline NoBaddy

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« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2003, 04:43:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Nobaddy -  I've seen what happens when one particular group of players lobbies the game producers to have minor changes applied. It happened in WB. The LW guys would whine and whine, and eventually they got their way and had a 109E that could outturn a Spit 1a - complete, unadulterated BS. I know of an entire squad that left WB on account of that one change. Here's another: One day, you could bomb a target with a 500# bomb, and it would go down. The next day, a 1600# bomb was not enough to destroy the same target - and then we would hear all this crap about "having to hit certain parts" of a target. Lazs dubbed this concept the WB "wheel-o-settings" - lol. The game just became a beta version. And I gave it up.


Well, not to split hairs....but, this isn't WB :).

Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
You're all for balance? Fine, and thanks for your explanation on that, although as I pointed out before, my sig does not relate to the Trinity map in particular. But if we're going to have balance, then I think that with all the furballer bluster about hardening this and that, we need a balanced view which means hearing from other people who do not favour such changes - at least not for the reasons given by those proposing such changes. You're probably right, and maybe there have been no changes applied purely to benefit one particular type of gameplay or group of players. But I want to do my part to see that it never happens.


Hmm, I am flattered that you seem to be stuck on Trinity :). Nothing in my post was in anyway Trinity specific. Striving to be the protector of the strat view is a laudable goal. Personally, I'm more interested in the entire game and not a single segment of it. But...whatever floats your boat :).

Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Still on the subject of arena balance, some people want changes to AH, but I don't think that "arena balance" is their objective at all. If we had a "balanced" arena, then why are the planes that form a steamroller always from the same list? (P51/YAK/Spit/LA7) Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked. We do however hear the call for 100# bombs to be perked. If we really are on a quest to have a balanced arena, then we would have an RPS. Even Apache from Nopoop's squad believes that. The first week of an RPS would be misery for me, heaven for others. But at least we would have balance - with all the planes being used, and not just the usual P51/Yak/La7/Spit subset. But no. People argue that they want to be able to fly what they want when they want. So we have 1945 every day. The early war planes don't stand much of a chance if they venture away from home base, so they stay in the hangar. Is this your vision of a "balanced" arena???


Oh my...where to start:)! Well, let's start at the easiest point. The "era" based RPS isn't going to happen in the MA. It has nothing to do with balance. It has to do with customer service. The CT is used to do the era based plane stuff. The MA is designed to be a what you want/ when you want it arena. It is not designed to be historical. Here is another clue for yah...this has nothing to do with MY vision of a balanced arena. It is Hitech's vision that counts. I do know that his 'vision' is to create a game that does not favor one segment of the community over another. Thus far, he has done an excellent job of it. In reality, it would seem that the only way to get the kind of balance you are talking about would be to have 1 fighter, 1 bomber and 1 ground vehicle available. Meybe it's me...but, that sounds a little boring :).


Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
So I stand by my sig. Read it at face value, instead of searching for some nonexistent apocryphal meaning or agenda. I hope that you continue to be right about none of those "temporary" changes being made. But I also hope that the reason is that HTC sees the folly of kow-towing to a particularly vociferous group of players, and not just that they're too busy working on AH2.
 

Whoa! Reality check! I never said nor implied an apocryphal meaning or agenda. I merely pointed out that it lacked validity in AH. You gave your experiences in another game as the reason behind it. As I pointed out earlier...this isn't WB. The only way that I see it becoming like WB is if HT decides to leave. If he does ever leave, I will probably be right behind him (just to be the rush to the door :D).
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2003, 04:47:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e

Many people I have spoken to agree that the LA7 seriously unbalances the arena - but I don't hear Mr. Furballer calling for it to be perked.


If you think the La7 should be perked and somehow unbalances the arena, I suggest you visit the TA a couple of doors down to learn some ACM and tactics.  

It never seizes to amaze me how people have the misconception that the La7 is some kind of uber-plane.  It also makes me laugh at the hypocrisy of some, you know, the ones that claim that they're in favor of balance with one breath and with the other breath cry...err whine for perking of a certain plane (usually because they don't have the necessary skill to defeat that certain plane) and then in the same hyprocritical breath call for the one supposed salvation that would truly make the arena balanced (at least to the hypocrite) is to put in a system that would limit what plane you could fly and when you could fly it.


You're no different than the 'Furballers' you rail against beet1le.  


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Offline nopoop

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« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2003, 05:36:02 PM »
You never change, get backed into a corner with your own words and you try the smoke and mirrors thing.

You really ought to work on your debating techniques.

Attacking sentence structure is not a viable answer to the the original question.

At what point in a debate are you NOT responsible for what you you say  ??

Point - counter point, that's how this debate thing works.

I'll give you a D for ignoring the question and throwing smoke as an answer.

..your in danger of failing the course.

I read quite well by the way, but it needs to keep my interest.

I'm silly that way.
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