An Average Joe On the Situation in Iraq

[Zippatuh]

I remember sitting in my living room talking it over with the wife what was going on and the reasons for a war with Iraq.  What it all came down to was this…

I can only assume and have faith in the fact that the leader of my country is privy to more information on the situation at hand than I do.  I can also only assume that the information being provided is correct and indeed has implications of national security.

I myself didn’t really want war with Iraq because I was more concerned with whose son or daughter wouldn’t be coming home.  Having spent some time in the Army I still have a place in my heart for all of those that serve their country and risk their lives.  It came down to my wife and me coming to the same conclusion.  We will support and believe what is being told to us but they had better find the damn things (WMD) and had better find a crap pot load of them.  I half heartedly hoped that they would be used in the war so there would be no question.

Now, a few months later after and what do we have, nothing.  Yeah a few trucks have been found and an empty artillery shell or two but that’s it.  There can only be one of two things that has happened here.  There was never a large stock pile to begin with and the little that they did have was scrubbed, or the large stock pile was completely scrubbed before the war and/or removed from the country.

The later is possible but I believe to be highly unlikely.  We were told “tons” correct?  I get the vision of massive warehouses with thousands of containers.  There is no way that it was all moved out of the country or destroyed with no evidence.  I find that utterly impossible to believe.

Was Saddam a bad man?  Yes, I believe that without any question.  Without having his rotting corpse or handcuffed symbol though we couldn’t be in a worse situation.  I’m not even sure that having that would change the current situation.  The armed forces are meant to attack or defend.  Hold or destroy.  They are not policemen.  That is not their training and they shouldn’t be asked to perform that role.

They did an excellent job on the war, that’s what there job and training is.  Now they are expected to keep the peace with a people who apparently don’t want it.  I think that whole region is like my mother-in-law.  They have to have something to fight about.  Removing one dictator only allows the 1000 or so other’s that were quashed by Saddam to crawl out of the wood work.  Not to mention that democracy in itself promotes organized crime.  There is something to be said about “peace” and a dictatorship.

If we (the USA) had been able to show the Iraqi people as well as the world where and how much WMD’s they had I believe even the Iraqi people may be more on our side.  I argued that it had nothing to do with oil or personal vendettas on the part of our president.  Now, I’m not so sure.  I think it’s looking more and more like we stepped in a big pile of dog crap and there isn’t a big enough stick to get it all out of the treads.

Being an employee of Sprint I was somewhat upset, hell mad even, that MCI (Worldcom) gets the wireless contract for Iraq.  A company that has never built a network before in its history.  After the way things are working out.  Good luck with that.  How the hell can you restore basic services when there is a high probability that either the technician will get killed or the work destroyed before it can be completed?

We can’t pull out either.  If we leave now the cost in Iraqi lives will be enormous.  If we don’t leave the cost in American lives will be continuous and unrelenting.  How many Iraqi soldiers and civilians have been killed to date?  I don’t know the number but I would venture to say that it is several times greater than the world trade center, which was also used as an additional reason for toppling Saddam.

I don’t know what the answer is and I for one like Bush a whole hell of a lot better than Clinton but I am increasingly reminded of the Dead Zone with Christopher Walkin.  “Praise God and let the missiles fly brother”.

I’ll continue to be a good soldier and give the administration the rest of the year to get things straight and secure in Iraq and to provide some evidence of WMD’s.  I’m not even sure I can really wait that long with the casualty rate the way it’s been going.  After that, write a big check to the Iraqi people trust fund account and hand the keys over to the UN.  Then I want to see all of our people come home.

And yes it will be embarrassing and I for one will feel ashamed.  It will take the next 30-50 years to undo what has been done in the last few months.

That’s my opinion and I do not believe that it is mine alone.  I can only hope and pray for our service men and women to be safe in their current role.  As for the Iraqi civilians, I’m sorry how things are working out.  I hope our children will learn from our mistakes but I can see as how your children are going to hold a grudge for generations to come.

[Fishu]

A thoughtful thread, I appreciate it
Unfortunately I'm afraid it wont stay long like that over here..



I'd like to comment few last lines in response, about giving the job over to UN..

Alot of europeans are in the mood that the coalition (mainly US) needs to deal with Iraq themselves, instead of always "letting" UN take care of the rest, after they do the war. (Ie. Kosovo/Serbia as an example)

No pun intented

[wulfie]

How do you know the cost in American lives will be continuos and unrelenting?

Do the fedayeen get 10 new fighters every time they put a quarter in a slot?

When did 6 months of guerilla combat become an eternity?

You don't think we can hunt down the people behind the attacks and put them out of business?

Have some faith dude. And as to WMD not being located yet...with those attacks going on we're going to send teams of WMD experts driving all over Iraq before the Nation is secure?

Spare me - the complaint of 'no WMD' is purely a political ploy. The same people complaining now are on record as being concerned about Iraq and the spread of WMD before our current President was ever in the White House.

And, like the pink 700 lb. gorilla in the living room that no one talks about - never, EVER in the context of one of the blatantly political 'WE WERE LIED TO ABOUT WMD! IRAQGATE!' articles/posts/reports is there any mention of "If there were no WMD in Iraq then:

1. WHY IN THE HELL DID HE SCREW WITH THE UN INSPECTORS FOR 10 YEARS? Why the communications intercepts of Iraqi intel types actively rerouting or preempting the Blix led inspectors. Answer me - give me ANY reason - WHY?

2. Why did Iraq spend hundreds of millions of dollars on activites where the sole purpose of such activites was to hide a WMD program (example: multiple resurfacing of a compound far from any civilian inhabitiation, etc., etc., etc.).

I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on - but why - anyone proposing this argument only a few months after the end of formal hostilities is on a political mission and thus incapable of any honest discussion.

It's a simple question - a dictator in total power in his regime could have remained in power by simply allowed an almost friendly UN led team of WMD inspectors unrestricted access to the Nation of Iraq. If there was nothing to hide, then why such actions? Give me one plausible explanation other than 'there was something to hide'.

It won't take 30-50 years. Once they have an army and a group of leaders that is close to elected the majority of U.S. forces will be gone.

“Praise God and let the missiles fly brother” - give me a break dude. I find it hilarious that U.S. citizens are more afraid of our President, due to political bull****, than alot of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. Funny how those people never get interviewed by the New York Post or the Guardian. There's alot of them around - I've met a couple of them myself.

Mike/wulfie

[john9001]

Originally posted by Zippatuh

I myself didn’t really want war with Iraq because I was more concerned with whose son or daughter wouldn’t be coming home.

                                                                                            they had better find the damn things (WMD) and had better find a crap pot load of them.  I half heartedly hoped that they would be used in the war so there would be no question.

 

so you were "concerned' about the sons and daughters, but you hoped saddam would use WMD's?????

[Zippatuh]

You’re right, it’s not going to have the legs of the other thread but after reading it my opinion was greater than a response to the topic.

I understand how the European community would take that position.  The problem with using Kosovo and Serbia as examples is I will always go back to the memory of seeing people carted away on rail cars.  The number of mass graves and “genocide” reports, which had foundation, I believed justified that.  Those are things I thought I would never see in my lifetime.

I think it was the job of the UN to go there in the first place but were unwilling to deal with the situation at hand.

As to letting the UN take it now…  It might be looked upon better by the Iraqi people to see several different nations in blue barrettes as policeman than the kid that rolled in on his tank a few months ago still sitting on the same corner.  It would also be better than just leaving which will happen if things continue on this course.

[Zippatuh]

Wulfie,

I don’t know that it will but based on the history of the region I would wager good money on it.  Especially when someone can be killed at point blank range getting a coke and yet there be no witnesses to the crime.

How do you know it is the fedayeen?  Why couldn’t it be Joe Bob Iraqi until now had no other way to vent frustrations?  Was Somalia the fedayeen or was it a bunch of kids with guns that had nothing better to do but kill the invaders of there country?

6 months of guerilla combat is an eternity, ask the soldiers in Baghdad.  Rumsfeld himself has said the attacks will continue.  He did not give a time when they would end.

As to number 1 and why?  Why not screw with them, it was his country.  You’ve never messed with someone before.  Hell it may have been some perverted game for him.  As to the intercepts, I’m starting to question our intelligence as well.

As to number 2, I don’t have an answer.  Why didn’t he give some of the “oil for food” program to the actual people in the first place?

I’m not on a political mission, just voicing my opinion.  I’m a libertarian actually.

Why hide them, or play the hiding game.  Well, something has to pass the time doesn’t it.  For all we know that’s how he was approaching it.

I’m not sure we’ll make it to the point of “electing leaders” and “organizing an army”.  It doesn’t appear to me that we are in control of anything.  The anything meaning normal civil services.

I’m not afraid of our president because of political bull, I’m afraid of him because he uses God entirely too much in his speeches.

[Zippatuh]

John,

You are correct, I was concerned and in a sadistic way hoping they would be used.  Basically for the reason we are in right now.  We said they were there and have yet to find them.  I am glad that they didn’t but the situation would be different now if they were.

In the immortal words of Spoc, “the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few”.  If several hundred Americans had died because of a bio attack everyone would have a different opinion.  Everyone meaning those others that live outside the USA.

[Rude]

Originally posted by Zippatuh
You’re right, it’s not going to have the legs of the other thread but after reading it my opinion was greater than a response to the topic.

I understand how the European community would take that position.  The problem with using Kosovo and Serbia as examples is I will always go back to the memory of seeing people carted away on rail cars.  The number of mass graves and “genocide” reports, which had foundation, I believed justified that.  Those are things I thought I would never see in my lifetime.

I think it was the job of the UN to go there in the first place but were unwilling to deal with the situation at hand.

As to letting the UN take it now…  It might be looked upon better by the Iraqi people to see several different nations in blue barrettes as policeman than the kid that rolled in on his tank a few months ago still sitting on the same corner.  It would also be better than just leaving which will happen if things continue on this course.

The UN won't help us...they're spineless. Also, you've forgotten that we are the Bad Guys.

[Rude]

Originally posted by Zippatuh
John,

You are correct, I was concerned and in a sadistic way hoping they would be used.  Basically for the reason we are in right now.  We said they were there and have yet to find them.  I am glad that they didn’t but the situation would be different now if they were.

In the immortal words of Spoc, “the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few”.  If several hundred Americans had died because of a bio attack everyone would have a different opinion.  Everyone meaning those others that live outside the USA.

Don't kid yourself Zip....the same folks would find a way to blame us.

[gofaster]

I'm still bitter over Iran, 1979, and the Ayatollah Khomeini.  I can still remember one of the kids in my neighborhood singing "Bomb Iran" to the tune of the Beach Boys' "Barbara Ann".

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Zippatuh

I’m not afraid of our president because of political bull, I’m afraid of him because he uses God entirely too much in his speeches.

*Newsflash*

Dubya hires God as speechwriter.

[zonta123]

this war was justified on grounds that (as you put correctly) saddam had wmd (a whole lot of em too) and that he was after nuclear weapons which he would use against the US without hesitation.  nothing is a better casus belli then self defense.

yet in my opinion, if saddam had em, he would have used them. I have no doubt about it.  Even if he didnt use em despite having em (for whatever illogical reason) US troops would have found at least a trace of those weapons.  

The pathetic explanation that "he moved em all elsewhere" is outrageous.  Who, on this earth of God, would have accepted those things, seeing what happened to saddam?  Besides, with all the hi tech sci fi equipment that CIA has, is there a chance the US wouldnt know where they are shipped to?

Let me state the obvious: there were not any wmds left in Iraq after the weapon inspectors left iraq in 98 (?)  they destroyed every single one of em.

now the bitter question is:  what are the "coalition" (US and UK) gonna do now? Apologise? "Hey sorry dude, we leveled your country to the ground, killed your women and children, destroyed your life, but hey, it was all just a big foul up"  This is plain evil. Worst of all, the US public opinion was deliberately (its still goin on too) manipulated to agree with and support this unjust war on manufactured "evidence", which even CIA admits they were all BS.

now lets think. What would YOU do, if some foreigners (heathens even) come and kill your people, invade your land and appoint one of theirs as a dictator (whatever that guys name is, the US admin there in Iraq).  I tell you what I'd do: with every means available to me, I'd kill every single one of em until they all are dead or they all leave.

we should not fall into the mistake of assuming other peoples on this earth are incapable of being patriots and act accordingly.  Even criminals with no morals who just kill for the joy of it (read saddam supporters) will now become heros who fight off invaders.  Moral superiority is with them.  Besides, what do they have to lose anymore?  Having lost families, friends, and all their belongings, dont expect this terrible guerilla war will end in our lifetimes (unless invasion ends). (if you think they'd worry about losing their lives, how can you explain suicide bombings. for some people, certain things are holier than life)

Blair is paying for his mistake with his career and reputation.  So will his party.  Yet in the US, it seems the public needs more time to analyze the situation and draw the proper conclusions from it.

those who live shall see.

[Dowding]

Wulfie - we spent millions of pounds trying to eradicate the terrorist groups in Northern Ireland. Did we succeed? If people are driven to hate they will never be truly defeated, if you are concerned about collateral damage.

Every case is different, but an army is always vulnerable in the face of the guerilleros. It's a big target. In 1811, during Bonaparte's foray into Spain and Portugal (via his Marshals) one messenger needed 400 cavalry to move around the country. That was the depth of the hate engendered in the Spanish and Portuguese people. A French general, en route to Paris had to be escorted by 2000 men. Even though the French raped, murdered and plundered everywhere they went, they never curbed the guerrileros. They lost more people to partisans than they did in action to Wellington's British forces who eventually won the battles that threw France out of Spain.

Now, I'm not suggesting a Peninsular war from 200 years ago is directly comparable to Iraq today. But I think there are some parallels. This is going to be a continuous grind for quite some time.

[Zippatuh]

Rude,

I understand that literally anything we do will be seen as wrong in the eyes of the world.  Spineless?  It may be that there is more bureaucracy between the members of the UN that anything and everything gets bogged down in endless debate that leads to no action is better than any action.

I think in the end they believe it is better for them to wait and blame the failures, any failures, on whoever proceeds rather than take responsibility for any action that doesn’t have a rosy result.  Of course the “whoever” here is the USA.

I’m not so sure they could have blamed us if we had already found mass bio or chem. weapons or if they had been used on us during the war.  I do not disagree though that regardless of any outcome we will be picked at by certain other countries on something, regardless of what it is, they will find something.

[Zippatuh]

Originally posted by Arlo

Dubya hires God as speechwriter.

Sometimes I think so.

When he came out the other day and said he was in favor of amending the constitution to make same sex marriages illegal.  Well, that concerned me a bit.  Going straight for your stapler and pin based on a religious view is disconcerting at a federal level.