school vouchers

[Kieran]

No fair banana, you're from the inside.

Now let's see if anyone (besides Eskimo or banana) knows what effect an I.E.P. has on what a teacher can/cannot do.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Kieran
No fair banana, you're from the inside.

Now let's see if anyone (besides Eskimo or banana) knows what effect an I.E.P. has on what a teacher can/cannot do.

Man, that brings back bad memories.  I've forgotten all about those things, not much of an issue now.  

We also had ILPs.  I had 21 of 23 kids on ILPs my last year of teaching public school.  They're just great if you enjoy documenting everything that you do , for each student, while doing you're trying to teach and manage a class.  I think some "really smart" lawyer came up with that idea too.

eskimo

[GRUNHERZ]

Things that I think hurt US education in no particular order:

New age learing initatives instead of hard subjects and tests.

Lack of control  including punishment.

Annonymity.

Uncaring uneducated parents - as opposed to caring but uneducated parents.

"Poor Culture" Basically: You dont need no scholling, go get a job.  I come from a small fishing village in Croatia and they are good people but their homes dont have many books - ill leave it at that. This is gonna be controversial but Ill include in this "US black culture"  Look at how the Jesse Jackson types critizize TV sitcoms for having middle class educated blacks - this may or may not reflect on reality but it ceratinly does reflect on and establish expectations and aspirations.


Teachers unions - the concern of teachers unions, like all unions,  is to get highrer salaries and more job security to their members regardless of other factors. banana pretty much addmited that. I hate to see TV ads saying that teachers unions support some education initiative and that somehow that means its better for kids.

Inconsistent cirruculum. There should be a basic natioal curriculum stressing math, reading writting and history. In English! Some states have very backward standards IRRC.

Schools are not ambitius enough and dont challenge kids. A few years ago Pres Clinton was announcing some great program which would make it a goal that most kids could read by the 3rd
grade.  My thought, what the hell are they doing with them for the first two years?

Stop this idiocy about teaching creationism in schools.

Bilingual programs.
i was a terrible student but I learned english ion 6 months. My languange is no closer to english than is spanish. I had to learn because I had to. Remove that pressure and kids like all humansd will stick with the comfortable and familiar especiallly if that is encoraged. They never learn english well and so cut themselves of from college and wider carrer opportunites.

Flame away....

[capt. apathy]

Bilingual programs.

son-of-a-b...., me and Grun agree on something.

I'll even go one further, we need to declare english as our official language.  

we should provide free english training to all imigrants but it should not be the responsability of the public school system,  let the department of imigration pay for it.  if they can't afford to teach any more people, don't let any more in until you can afford to teach them.

it's not just the cost to schools.  the relivant part of my electric bill is 1 page, yet I get a 6 page letter every month (the rest made up of about a dozen other languages).  why is it our (gov't)responsability to comunicate with people who moved (or in many cases lived here for generations) to a country without planning for how to comunicate with others?  hell we recent had a gov't agency take out an add in the 'help wanted' section for a translater who spoke klingon.

you ever go to a gov't office with a long wait? (dmv for example) most people have a very huge wait.  then someone who doesn't speak english comes in, talks to the receptionist who takes them asside, finds the translator and imediatly starts to work for them.  2 hour wait for everyone else and 20 min door to door for them.

I even heard from a Korean man I worked with that when he first came to the US he took the writen part of the driving test orally with a translator writing it down for him,  he said he missed several but she helped him by writing down the correct answers instead of the ones he gave.  (that might explain another thing or two, but thats another subject and completely unPC, so I'll just apologise for that thought now.)

I have nothing against people keeping their native languages, I strongly suport teaching them to your kids (I guess that would make them herritage languages?), and wish my family had kept them alive.

but we would be much more efficient if we all did bussiness in english.  and if you refuse to learn the language the responsability for a translator should be yours.

[SOB]

What in the hell?  I agree with Apathy AND Grun?  This is wrong, this is just incredibly wrong!  Nothing good can come of this.


SOB

[Kieran]

Final question: Who's responsible for bringing about I.E.P.'s?

P.S. Grun- Your stuff sounds great, but is largely based in error.

[Eagler]

as my youngest is now a senior in high school ...

I do not believe any of our taxes should support the failing public school system

Let us keep the tax money and those with children can then spend the money better on schools with smaller class sizes, better teachers and educational equipment - the rest of us can save it

[lazs2]

Oh... I don't say that the teachers... some of em... want to teach their administrations version of life skills more than they want to teach academics.... I am pragmatic... I don't care what the intent is... only the result.

with 67% adminestration the teachers are pretty powerless in any case... banana and kieran... do you feel you are in control of what you teach or don't teach?

You want to fix public schools?   NOW you want to fix em?   where were you when they were incramentaly slautered over  the last couple of decades?   You all thought it was a good idea to start "programs" that had nothing to do with academics then.... well guess what?   this is a bureocracy.... you can't turn this baby on a dime... it's toooooo friggin late.  You blew it and yu can't act repentant now and say... Oh... give us another chance... just give us a couple of decades and we will get up to... to what?  the level proivate schools are at now?  

Why bother to save this loser?   Oh... because private schools might throw out "problem" children?   big friggin deal... throw em out... they destroy learning for dozens of kids around em.... let em go to another institution... believe me, there will be someone to take em.   but.... I believe that you will have less dropouts overall with private schools.... I believe that ublic schools have reached the saturation point on dropouts..... they can't do anything any worse thatn they do now and get more dropouts.... they have acchieved 100% success in getting the most kids possible to drop out.

Most of u teachers just don't want to work 10 or more months a year like the peasants.

lazs

[Raubvogel]

I blame Mathman

[fd ski]

Ok Lazs, sceanrio.
I'm a troule kid who got kicked out from every school within 50 miles radius of my house. I'm in 6th grade.
none of those schools will take me, ( they are all private ) hence i cannot get an education.

Question is a math question:
What procentage will the lawyer take to sue the pents off the school board in my city ?

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I agree that there should be a method to "remove" distractive kids.
Unfortunatelly forcing them on "other" schools isn't the answer.
In poland we have something called "poprawczak" which stands for "corrector". it's a place that every teenager dreads. it's more or less a prison/school. You get send there - you're in the world of ****
Who knows.. maybe it would work ?

[Gadfly]

Ski, the problem is in your wording.  You said, "I can't get an education".  That is incorrect, the education is there, you and your parents do not WANT it.  Therefore, why should anyone else concern themselves with you?  Hypothetically, of course.

[capt. apathy]

I'm in 6th grade.
none of those schools will take me, ( they are all private ) hence i cannot get an education.

no you still get an education,  they take you to that last school where you get a shovel and learn how to dig ditches.

  it'd be a hard life for a child,  but if you insist on being dumb you better start on being tough early on.

when my son's grades began to fall to an unacceptable level (2nd semester junior year), I got the letter from the school about his grades.

I picked him up from school that day and informed him of a few changes coming up that he could thank his own efforts for.

for starters his 17th birthday pressent was 1 credit of summer school.

second I told him (ok, this was a hollow threat, he only did it once for about 5 minutes, but it got his attention) we where going to start our own little vo-tech thing for 4 hours a week, for as long as he lived in my house.  if he couldn't keep up academicly he would have to imediatly begin training in a feild more sutable for someone with his prospects.

as I finished up this little speach we where pulling off the freeway at our exit.  I stopped at the light and said "your first lesson  starts now, see you in 4 hours", reached across him and popped open the door and said "get out", he gets out but looks confused until I hand him the cardboard sign saying 'will work for Food,  please help',  "Don't forget your tools", and off I go.

he shows up at home about 20 minutes later saying he couldn't do it.  but in that time he also had formulated a plan to get all his grades up where they belong, and he stuck with it and graduated on time.

it needs to be clear to kids what the consequences are for lack of performance.

some kids come to school to learn and some just put in there time (or worse).  the thing is with this whole happy, happy, feel good, no child left behind,  BS we got now all those kids will eventually graduate.  the ones who do the work and know the material get the same diploma the screw offs get.

why shouldn't a kid who works hard have the right to an education free from distractions who are wasting everyones time and money.  and if they keep behavior and performance up to the level of the top-teir class(or school) give them a diploma that reflects that.

and if they stick it out and graduate, but from the last one that would take them, and all they learned was which end of a shovle to hold and where to sign your paycheck, let their diploma reflect that.

[Kieran]

Guys, you aren't getting any points for ignoring the question. Let me help you out... parent advocates brought us I.E.P.'s. Those plans tie our hands behind our backs in many ways. We are bound by law to do as we are instructed- what we want or don't want makes absolutely no difference. That, my friends, is only the tip of the iceberg.

Let me jump ahead then... if parent advocates forced an unendurable situation for public schools, what makes anyone think for a single second it will be any different in a private school growing more and more dependent on voucher (therefore federal) money? Once the private schools are dependent on the money, they are the new public schools. Yes, it really is that simple.

You're right Lazs, it is the bureaucracy that causes the problem. What you don't realize is YOU (the public) ARE the bureaucracy. As long as people can and will litigate conflicting agendas, no school accepting federal moneys will avoid the current plight of public schools.

[DmdMac]

Originally posted by fd ski
Public schools are sick because most of the grown population decided its more fun to watch TV then to teach their own kids.

But...but...it's football season!!!

Percetion those days is that it's teacher's and school's job to get the information into kid's head and make it into a decent human being.

Dissemination and the fostering of comprehension. Teaching a child how to study and learn.  Sometimes you gotta teach them the most basic concepts to learning.  Otherwise it becomes a "either you can or you can't" type argument, and one that would have regarded Einstein as mentally retarded.

It's a PARENT'S job to make sure that kid does his/hers homework, all assignments, understands the matieral and is prepared.

I agree, with the exception of understanding the material.  If a parent doesn't understand, he certainly isn't going to be able to explain it to his/her kid.  Now, if the parent can see the child doesn't grasp, and is struggling, then they can certainly seek help, however, that does require them to forego their pride.  Something I notice is difficult for adults. Even, if not especially, many I see here.

[capt. apathy]

Guys, you aren't getting any points for ignoring the question. Let me help you out... parent advocates brought us I.E.P.'s. Those plans tie our hands behind our backs in many ways.

pointing out one of the reasons why public schools are FUBAR doesn't really change anything.  we all know that they are and there are many reaons why.

if you fund the private schools through vouchers controled by the parent, instead of direct gov't funding there is no reason why they would be this screwed.

if nothing else we would have a clean start at a new set-up.  maybe we could get 100 years out of that before the gov't finds a way to ruin it.