school vouchers

[Gadfly]

The NEA is the worst thing to happen to education in the US, I will agree.

My whole life, I wanted to be a teacher.  It was my declared major my freshman year.  My first class, education 101, dealt exclusively with how to deal with, and operate under, the NEA.  I dropped the class after 2 months, and changed my major the next semester.

[Nash]

Over the last couple of years I've ended up doing a lot of work for a few private schools. No lie - the marketing dept.'s in these schools were everything. It'd be impossible to explain just how much importance they were given... and how the success/failure of the school was seen to be intrinsically linked to the marketing. Everything else, easily including the quality of the education/facilities, took such a back seat as to not even be riding in the same car.

These were post-secondary schools, so it might be different for schools grades 1-12.

[Gadfly]

Why would you assume those situations do not apply to me?

There is nothing, NOTHING more important than your children.  You do not have to embrace that, but in that case you have no right to insist that someone else assume YOUR responsability to do so.

[capt. apathy]

No, it wasn't a rich school, but it was a small one. Point is, public doesn't equal crappy.

no it doesn't always mean crappy.

  but sometimes it does, and when it does, whats wrong with the option to put your child, and the dollars alocated to teach him, in the hands of someone you feel can do a better job with it?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by fd ski
No. You're getting FREE education, MANDATED BY LAW. This is a blessing, for which many children all over the world would be quite greateful.  

My education wasn't FREE. My parents paid for it with their taxes just as I paid for my kid's with my taxes. No way to know, but I suspect that if vouchers had been available when I was in school a private school might have made a difference for me. Just as I believe it might for millions of kids today.

I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes here, I know there are many good teachers,  but our public education system is in need of serious overhaul.

[wrag]

Originally posted by Gadfly
Why would you assume those situations do not apply to me?

There is nothing, NOTHING more important than your children.  You do not have to embrace that, but in that case you have no right to insist that someone else assume YOUR responsability to do so.

With respect ...

Please reread my post.

Your pardon, but I see no assumption made.  I do see the words SEEMS, SEEM, MAYBE, and FULLY used.  Although all the situations that are possible applying to any one person is.... whoa! that person would definitely have MY SYMPATHY!!!

As to responsibilities... yes the children must be fed, clothed, housed, protected, as well as educated.

Further ... I put forward the fact, that where our children are concerned, these paid educators are given, by us, a position of TRUST!  And therefore a PORTION of that responsibility.  That so many are beginning to feel the NEA is betraying that trust says something.

FURTHER ... the law requires, and I agree to an extent with that law, that our children must be educated.  However!!!!! If one is unable for any reason to see to that education, (and lately the state seems to be trying to prevent home schooling, or to force the home schoolers to teach using only the state approved/mandated teachings,) then the children MUST be sent to public school.

I further submit that by creating laws such as the above, the state (aka the people, or maybe it should apply to just the politicians? ) takes on a portion of that responsibility.

I do hope that all are able to see that for some, in the past, the present, and the future, reliance on the "educators" is almost a must.  If for no other reason then due to the parent being poorly educated and unable to give assistance to their child when it is needed.  Further reasons could be temporary injuries requiring a great deal of therapy, or disabled and in constant pain that requires drugs I could go on and on and on but .....

I agree that the final responsibility of the child's education is the parent or parents.  However I submit that the state is gradually taking that responsibility/right away from parents through the laws that are being created and the educational organizations/systems being used.  And in some instances even punishing the parents that object.  This seems to be occurring against many peoples wishes.

I also recognize passion.

I think what I'm trying to say is...

Hmmm ... well from where I sit it seems to me ... that informing someone, anyone, that if they disagree with a persons opinion/view point, (and that includes my own opinions, and yes even the ones i'm passionate about!) then there IS OR MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM seems a bit too much like .....

It seems that it matters not if I wish to accept that responsibility refereed to above.  What does matter is The State may very well be taking that right/responsibility away from you and I and everyone else.   And The State seems to be using the opinion/argument that you must agree with The State or there is something wrong with you!

Which brings out the question of what freedom and what liberty?

Or even the question what rights?

err ahh hmmm oops ... didn't mean to get so wordy

[fd ski]

Originally posted by AKIron
My education wasn't FREE. My parents paid for it with their taxes just as I paid for my kid's with my taxes. No way to know, but I suspect that if vouchers had been available when I was in school a private school might have made a difference for me. Just as I believe it might for millions of kids today.

I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes here, I know there are many good teachers,  but our public education system is in need of serious overhaul.

It was free. Nobody send you a bill saying "pay this much for school". yes it came out of your parents taxes, but so it did from everyone elses, hence EVERYONE paid for your education.

Private school would have made a difference ? How is that exacly ?  Would it be because they are more strict ? Or because your parents would have made sure you were working your bellybutton off since they were paying for it ?
And as stated before, what makes you think that private school will accept you ? The voucher in your hand ? They are designed to be elitist and will maintain that status by raising the tuition accordingly. Wanna bet on that ?

If vouchers become reality you will see new schools pop up around the place aimed at getting voucher students away from public schools, and they will. They superiority will be based on marketing rather then actual results, and they won't change a darn thing if the kid doesn't want to learn.
But at least kid will be able to pound his chest and say "i went to a private school"....

So AkIron, do you feel you were a failure in school and it was your teacher's fault ?

Here, i'll start. I was a failure in high school and it was my own fault cause i was too interested in basketball and p___y.


Fatty - why shouldn't rich people get vouchers ?
Correct me if i'm wrong by vouchers are meant to be a tool for choice, rather then social equality. Hence all parents with school age kids get a voucher for whatever state spends on their education and can give it to any accredited school, right ?
If so, i don't see why Bill Gates shouldn't get a voucher. He pays taxes like rest of us.

[Trell]

Originally posted by fd ski
It was free. Nobody send you a bill saying "pay this much for school". yes it came out of your parents taxes, but so it did from everyone elses, hence EVERYONE paid for your education.
 

Of course school was not free.  We did not have the option to not pay for it.  And in each school system  the people there have some choice what the money is being used on.

Btw i do think teachers need to do more than just give homework.
If that is all they need to do  we might as well save money and do video learning from people in india.
save us the money we spend on teachers that think they are god

[Wanker]

ForHim: I understand why you're home schooling, but why then attack the public schools? The Public schools are not faith based, nor should they be. That's why we have private religious schools. Those parents who don't want to send their children to public schools are welcome to pony up the cash and send them to their favorite private religious school of their choice, or home school them.

The federal government should not be in the business of paying for religious education.

http://www.nea.org/index.html

Thought I'd paste the NEA's link here so everyone can read it's mission statements and views on a wide range of hot educational topic. I've just read through them, and it sounds very reasonable to me. Somebody mentioned that they are anti-teacher accountability. I see nothing like that at all in their statements. In fact, I see this:

Accountability in education is not one thing. There must be systems in place for setting standards and assessments for what students should know and be able to do. There must be systems to prepare, hire, retain and continually improve the knowledge and skills of teachers and other education employees. There must be systems for parents and taxpayers to know that their money is being spent appropriately -- and that their expectations for student achievement are in line with the investments states and communities make.

Teachers welcome high standards and strong accountability systems -- as long as they are a shared responsibility of others in the school and community, including administrators, elected officials and parents

Doesn't sound like the ravings of some anti-accountability whacko union that some of you claim the NEA is.

[AKIron]

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the definition of "free" fd ski. My taxes seem like real money to me.

Like I said, I did very little in school and yet got through. I should be completely honest. I did quite well the first 4 years. After that I lost interest. Never or very rarely did any home work and day dreamed most of the time in class. I really shouldn't have passed many of the subjects I did but no one seemed to care and the system apparently didn't want the expense of keeping me longer.

So, did I waste 8 or so years? Pretty much. Was it my fault? Yes, never said it wasn't. Were my parents remiss in their responsibility? Again, yes. Were there teachers to blame? I think so. Was the system lacking? Most definitely. Could a more strict school that was able to focus more attention on my needs and problems have turned me around? Maybe, I'll never know for sure but the results I've observed in others would seem to say yes.

I think we can and should learn from our mistakes. Pushing kids through school with little learning happening is a mistake. If the public school system can't change this then our tax money should be spent elsewhere.

[lazs2]

public schools are broken.   no sense throwing more money at em... it's too late and it never worked in any case.    most "families" are not lazy when it comes to their kids... most are either single parent trying to work and take care of the household and do as much as they can for thier kids or... both parents work to make ends meet.

private schools don't put the teaching responsibility on the parents... they have this unique way of looking at it... they feel it is their job to teach academics and the parents job to teach life skills... this is the complete oppossite of what the public school system has decided.... the public school is finding that being a parent is allmost impossibel but.... bless their little union liberal hearts.... they keep trying.

time to offer some real alternatives.

DC is mostly poor black with poor academic records but mostly dempocrat liberal and pro public everything.... they wouldn't have gone to the extreme right wing position of vouchers if they had even a glimmer of faith left in the public school system.

public schools are the worst of socialism done in the worst possible way to the people who are most vulnerable.

lazs

[capt. apathy]

Private school would have made a difference ? How is that exacly ?

one huge advantage most private schools have is that if a kid is a discipline problem, and after other options have failed, they always have the option of telling the parents to find another school.

all it takes is 1 or 2 idiots to stop 30 kids from learning anything.

teachers seem to be overly obsessed with the idea that every kid needs to be a highschool graduate.  it would be great if they where but some are either just not mentally equiped to handle HS level subjects, or just not interested in doing the work.

they focus so much attention and resources an the kids that are "falling through the cracks" (man, I'm sick of hearing that phrase), that kids that are there and ready to learn get ignored.

it should be hard to get your diploma, you should have to know the material, when they give them to everyone then nobodys has any value.

[Kieran]

Any of you guys know what an I.E.P. is?

That should sort the "knows" from the "don't knows".

[Wanker]

private schools don't put the teaching responsibility on the parents... they have this unique way of looking at it... they feel it is their job to teach academics and the parents job to teach life skills... this is the complete oppossite of what the public school system has decided.... the public school is finding that being a parent is allmost impossibel but.... bless their little union liberal hearts.... they keep trying.

Lazs, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think that any teachers out there would rather be paid parents during the school day instead of educators, you're out of touch with reality. All the other crap teachers have to do is mandated by the state of the federal government.

Ask any teacher. They'll tell you that all they want to do is teach their subject to attentive kids who want to learn, and work with their students' parents who care about what happens in the school each day.

You don't consider reading or writing a life skill?

I will grant you that not every part of the public school system is perfect. But instead of trying to work with the schools to solve the problem, the self-righteous right wants to throw out the baby with the bath water, and turn our schools into psuedo-religious institutions.

Kieran:

I.E.P. = Individual Education Plan

[capt. apathy]

acutaly I'd just like to take my baby out of the poluted bath water  until they clean it up