school vouchers

[GRUNHERZ]

About the IEPs I edited my post but somehow the edit did nopt show up.  I anticipated largely what you said on a case by case basis about them being a sort of disctraction.  I suppose I did not understand that IEP kids were in the same classroom as other students. Anyway that would fall under one of my earlier complaints about new age "self-esteem" oriented instruction.

The teachers here you may all be good guys but I must be  honest with you from my perspective as an outsider and as business student. My take on it is that the very fact such an entrenched and powerful beurocracy as teachers unions - and thats exactly what they are a beurocracy- is so obviously terrified and threatened by vouchers that they are worth trying out.  You guys have allready all but admitted that all teachers unions care about is increasing compensdation and security for members and any program that takes away per pupil funding  from the uinions public schooll honeypot is obviously a threat.  I say give them a try.

[Kieran]

I am not a union man- I feel it has done us much harm by aligning itself with organizations that didn't have education as a primary interest. I am not naive enough to believe, however, a private institution would be any better. Private institutions are about money in many cases.

The real harm from vouchers may come from the lack of quality offered. How much does it cost to build a school? To staff a school? Buy books, equipment, etc? Maybe metropolitan areas can afford to have multiple private schools competing for vouchers, but my guess is rural areas will not. At any rate, making money as the primary motivating force will mean cutting corners where ever possible. Bottom line; diminished opportunity.

Public schools are not perfect, but neither are they all bad. More, there is no escaping what contributes to making them the way they are so long as public moneys will be used to fund whatever school people attend. The government never gives money away with no strings attached.

[wrag]

OK WHOA just a minute...

Parental groups are forcing some of this stuff on us?, on our kids?  I take exception to that!!!  I DISAGREE ALLOT!!!!

What I see and have seen is mainly special interest groups that as before mentioned don't even have kids.  Groups that want their social agenda to be ours whether we like it or not.

Further if they are forcing some of this stuff on everyone, they are far too often, a minority of individuals forcing their will on the majority.

The NEA is from my view point way out of line.

There seems to me to be some kind of aversion to reality within this organization and some of the other ones that are involved in creating this mess we have regarding education.

Just one example given from within my point of view:

This big national aversion to violence is troubling.  NO I do not approve of violence.  Nor do I disapprove of violence.  The reality is violence is here and it will not go away because we wish it to, nor will it go away if we make a law outlawing it (in fact I believe we already have a huge number of laws outlawing violent behavior).  Criminals are criminals because they have little respect for laws or the feeling of others.  The reality is that there exist in this world people that seem take joy in violence and a seemingly real pleasure in inflicting it on others.  AND I submit that for those of us that just wanna live our lives and raise our families basically in peace, when the violent come along and try to inflict violence upon us we have very little choice but to reply in kind.  Why?  Because that is the coin they understand.  And they don't want to get hurt or dead any more then we do.  And because calling 911 far too often takes so long we are injured or dead before they arrive.

Further where does this thing that a modern civilization must abhor violence and shun it?  What is war?  What did we just do to Afghanistan and Iraq.  Why is it alright for a nation to deal in violence against those it claims threaten it and not alright for a single person or family?????  Because they're politicians?????  Thought they worked for us???

Is it purposeful?  These things they are pushing on us?  I wonder some times.

OK I got wordy again  Worse I can not find the words to get my point accross in the manner I intend.  

[Kieran]

I have a class of 22 kids in career orientation. 8 of them have I.E.P.'s. They most certainly are lumped in. Bad idea, but that was legislated from the bench. As a teacher I have absolutely no choice in the matter- other than being a teacher or not. My school can't do anything about it either, other than refuse to offer the class to anyone at all. Of course that means they will dump those same kids in another class, so we may as well do the career class. No way the regular ed kids are getting anywhere near what they would otherwise, though. Sad for both sides, really.

Now if someone could explain how private schools wouldn't have to do the very same thing under the voucher program, I'd be all ears.

[GRUNHERZ]

I like that we agree on the union issue.  

I just like the idea of trying something new. The USA spends tons of money on education and we get low results up through highschool - at college level were the best though. So it's clear to me it's a cultural and not a funding issue and everty time I see incresed school spending its obvius to me that such funding is there to butter up the poweful unions and not solve problems. Therefire I feel a new approach is in order and vouvhers may be a part of that - and frankly anything else that the unions oppose should be given consideration as well.  

That is if we care to increase k-12 performance and frankly sometimes I'm not that sure if thats neccesary for the type of career aspirations many young americans have.  But thats part of the cultural issue I was refering to earler.

[Kieran]

Parental groups are forcing some of this stuff on us?, on our kids? I take exception to that!!! I DISAGREE ALLOT!!!!

You may take exception, but you'd be wrong.

Parent advocates successfully argued children with disabilities must be given an equal opportunity to succeed in public schools. This was an extension of civil rights and anti-segregation legislation. It is most commonly known as the "Least Restrictive Environment" mandate, and you can easily do a google search if you don't wish to take my word for it.  This one piece of legislation has had more of a profound effect on the state of public education than anything else in the last 25 years (IMHO).

Now you might think "equal opportunity sounds fair", but that is oversimplification. You see, who gets to determine fair is the critical point. Once again, the parent can determine to a great extent what education a child with disabilities will receive. They must sign off on the I.E.P. Typically an I.E.P. is formulated by a counselor, a parent, a principal, and a teacher, but it may also include a psychologist if the dysfunction is emotional (which they often are). At best, the teacher is one-fourth of the plan; at its worst, the counselor, psychologist, a principal and parent can back a teacher into a place that is unbearable. Parents seldom care if you have 25 other kids, or if you have 5 other kids on I.E.P.'s- not their problem, and that's pretty much the way they operate. Nope, you have to read the chapters to their kids, make notes, reduce test questions, water down standards, and generally, in some cases, pass the student for breathing. All by law, law effectively brought about by parents.

That's how it really is.

[capt. apathy]

That is if we care to increase k-12 performance and frankly sometimes I'm not that sure if thats neccesary for the type of career aspirations many young americans have. But thats the cultural issue I was refering to earler.

good point,  I feel we should increase the qualification for highschool graduation.  just not get so bent out of shape every time a kid (who likely isn't paying attention anyway) decides to drop out.  we encourage kids who refuse to learn to not give up, stick with it, stay in the way, you make a good roadblock for the kid who knows every effort he spends in school today will be returned to him many times over when he has a good job, and the luxery of only having to work up a sweat when he's at play.

let the kids who have promising careers ahead of them in the food service industry get to it, they can use the headstart anyway.  teach them how to say "would you like fries with that?" and get them on their way.

[Kieran]

Grun, what makes you so sure our performance is so poor? State standardized test scores? SAT? ACT? Just curious... as you might guess, I can add a great deal to that piece of your understanding, too.

[GRUNHERZ]

Just the usual internatinal comparsions that are quoted every year.  Plus my own personal experience in high school where immigrants from certain regions were better in math science etc.

I dont see how sat/act scores apply to an international comparsion.

[Kieran]

Apathy-

You realize automation cost is just ->][<- far above the cost of minimum wage? Technology improves all the time, and costs continue to fall as well. Very soon the time will come when you pass your debit card at the register, punch in your own order, and the meal comes out the other side. No mistakes, no fear of mishandling, prompt service every time. Once minimum wage rises above that cost, or when automation falls below minimum wage cost, it's over for these entry-level jobs. The writing is on the wall.


Grun-

I can't argue public schools don't need to improve, because they do. I do know the scores that are held up and used to quantify performance are flawed themselves. Your experience is more important to me because it is firsthand, and as such I do value it. That to me carries more weight than an exit exam for seniors given to sophomores at the beginning of the school year, a test graded by minimum wage workers who have nothing better to do with their time, all of whom use a rubric that guarantees scoring on a standardized test will be non-standard.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Kieran
I have a class of 22 kids in career orientation. 8 of them have I.E.P.'s. They most certainly are lumped in. Bad idea, but that was legislated from the bench. As a teacher I have absolutely no choice in the matter- other than being a teacher or not. My school can't do anything about it either, other than refuse to offer the class to anyone at all. Of course that means they will dump those same kids in another class, so we may as well do the career class. No way the regular ed kids are getting anywhere near what they would otherwise, though. Sad for both sides, really.

Now if someone could explain how private schools wouldn't have to do the very same thing under the voucher program, I'd be all ears.

If you're assuming that the state gains more control over a private school simply by having students whose tution is paid for or supplemented by vouchers then you may be assuming too much. The state already dictates parameters to private schools and these should not be changed because of vouchers. Doing so will only doom them to the same failure we now see in many of our public schools.

[Kieran]

Doing so will only doom them to the same failure we now see in many of our public schools.

That's exactly what I have been saying for my entire participation in this thread. It WILL happen because it's taxpayers' money, and taxpayers have a nasty habit of wanting their money spent in a way they desire. This means they want control, in part, of the school agenda. Private schools have power because they do not take public money; the minute they do, they lose the power.

[AKIron]

Agreed Kieran. However, there's still hope. By your logic the taxpayers can decide the state should not interfere anymore than it is currently in the affairs of private education.

[capt. apathy]

all it would take is wording in the voucher law that would state it as being given to the parent for educating the child.  or even do away with the voucher itself and just give the parent a tax credit equal to the money alocated per child in their school district.  the only requirement for gov't involvment should be the same as for home-school now. (as it has been explained to me the kid has to take tests and meet standard and show improvement,  basicly is the program working).

all it would take is an aknowledgement that this is a danger and petting language in the law to insulate the program from too much gov't involvement

[Kieran]

Originally posted by AKIron
Agreed Kieran. However, there's still hope. By your logic the taxpayers can decide the state should not interfere anymore than it is currently in the affairs of private education.

In theory that is possible now. What regular ed parents have not yet (it seems) figured out is they themselves could be an overwhelming block advocacy group if they so desired. As it is, factions have succeeded in breaking the community into smaller and more conflicting segments.

Running away from the problem won't fix it; it simply moves the problem to a new location.