How bad is this Administration...?

[Eagler]

many pals want peace

I'm sure they do - they just have to show it

turn in the radical next door holding the jihad meetings & makin the bomb belts

stop the bombings and the worlds weight goes against Israel - till then Israel has free reign to protect itself

it starts with the Pals controling themselves and ends with Israel making concessions - not the other way around

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by Eagler
stop the bombings and the worlds weight goes against Israel - till then Israel has free reign to protect itself

It starts with the Pals controling themselves and ends with Israel making concessions - not the other way around

The Palestinians have stopped the bombing before... yet Israel broke the peace by continuing with the economic warfare and the settlers and bulldozing houses.

Every one seems to have a short memory of history.

Out of work... no job... no way to buy food...
Economic warfare is just as disabilitating as guns and bombs.

"Put down your weapons first and we'll make peace"

Yet the Israelis are still choking the life out of the Palestinians economically... This is an act of agression.

The Palestinians are trying to survive.

The Israelis are not at the same survival level... that's why they have the power and the obligation to stop the agression first.

They need to agree to stop not only the military attacks but the economic warfare.

In recent years the Palestinians have gotten better equiped, in the early 90's, all Palestinians had were rocks... which were met by Israeli bullets.

When it comes to a body count.... more Palestinians have died in this conflict than Israelis. Alot of them are women and children.

Now that Palestinians have suicide bombers.. yes... it makes them look like they are crazy extremist... they weren't always this way.

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by DmdNexus
The Palestinians have stopped the bombing before... yet Israel broke the peace by continuing with the economic warfare and the settlers and bulldozing houses.

Every one seems to have a short memory of history.

Out of work... no job... no way to buy food...
Economic warfare is just as disabilitating as guns and bombs.

"Put down your weapons first and we'll make peace"

Yet the Israelis are still choking the life out of the Palestinians economically... This is an act of agression.

The Palestinians are trying to survive.

The Israelis are not at the same survival level... that's why they have the power and the obligation to stop the agression first.

They need to agree to stop not only the military attacks but the economic warfare.

In recent years the Palestinians have gotten better equiped, in the early 90's, all Palestinians had were rocks... which were met by Israeli bullets.

When it comes to a body count.... more Palestinians have died in this conflict than Israelis. Alot of them are women and children.

Now that Palestinians have suicide bombers.. yes... it makes them look like they are crazy extremist... they weren't always this way.

Replace "Palestinian" with "Al Qaeda" and "Israel" with "United States" in your post and see how comfortable you are in making the same statements.

[GRUNHERZ]

they weren't always this way

I'm sorry but the history of Palestenian and other Islamic extremist terror goes back almost 40 years, well before the current spate of mid-east violence...

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by MJHerman
Replace "Palestinian" with "Al Qaeda" and "Israel" with "United States" in your post and see how comfortable you are in making the same statements.

You're arguement is absurd.

Here is how absurd your logic is:
If a black man rapes your sister, that means all black men are rapists and should be thrown in jail for rape.

Palestine and Al Quada.. different situations... differen circumstances.

If Iraq had any connection with Al Qauda the US would be justified for attacking Iraq.

1. The Bush Administration has denied that there are any connections between Al Quada and Iraq.

2. Al Quada and 9/11 was not the justification used to attack Iraq.

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm sorry but the history of Palestenian and other Islamic extremist terror goes back almost 40 years, well before the current spate of mid-east violence...

Your point being? What?

let me guess... what you're implying...
Because they are ALL Islamic  extremists... there's no solution...

throw up your hands... give up...if they are Palestinian they must be terrorists?

meanwhile it's ok to do what to these "Terrorists"?

Exterminate every man, woman, and child who happens to be Palestinian?

Isn't that a rather extreme attitude?

People aren't just born extremists... their life circumstances and cultures motivate them to take up those positions...

Israeli had a lot to do with cultivating the terror they are not suffering from.

Why do so many people hate America?

Why does America support so many dictators and terrorists... Pinochet... the Shar of Iran... OBL... Sadam (yes we did... Mr. Evil him self)

[Siaf__csf]

What were you doing in croatia? Tourist or business/black market?

We actually have a house in the islands. We're related 2nd gen through marriage.

[MJHerman]

Originally posted by DmdNexus
You're arguement is absurd.

Here is how absurd your logic is:
If a black man rapes your sister, that means all black men are rapists and should be thrown in jail for rape.

Palestine and Al Quada.. different situations... differen circumstances.

If Iraq had any connection with Al Qauda the US would be justified for attacking Iraq.

1. The Bush Administration has denied that there are any connections between Al Quada and Iraq.

2. Al Quada and 9/11 was not the justification used to attack Iraq.

You missed my point my friend.  I was trying to point out that many people on this planet have grievances.

For example, using your argument, Palestinian terrorists are somehow justified in specifically targeting civilians because of all the bad things that Israel has done to them over the last few decades (Although you conveniently omit who has tried their hardest to eradicate Israel over those same decades, but I digress).

Now, translate your argument to a different situation and here are the absurd results that you get my friend:

1.  The U.S. inner city population - Predominantly African-American, and much poorer than the suburban, predominantly white population.  Is the inner city population therefore justified if they resort to violence to address the perceived wrongs which they perceive have been committed against them?

2.  The U.S. Indian population - Their land was stolen from them centuries ago.  I don't recall any Native Americans blowing up their local Wal Mart.

3.  Islamic fundamentalism - Part of the grievance package is U.S. "imperialism".  Whether that is correct or not it is a perception (Rich Uncle Sam taking advantage of Arab oil, "occupying" Saudi Arabia, etc.).  So knocking down two buildings with 3,000 souls would seem to be acceptable.

Since I'm tiring of your pro-terrorist/anti-Israel rant, I will chalk your position up to a simple observation on my part:

Those who kill American civilians are terrorists.
Those who kill Israeli civilians are freedom fighters who are just getting even for all the bad things that Jews have done to them.

[Batz]

I'm sorry but the history of Palestenian and other Islamic extremist terror goes back almost 40 years, well before the current spate of mid-east violence...

Try 100 years.

But the start of it was when the Brits promised the Arabs an Arab state for their help in fighting turkey in WW1.

The Arabs liberated Damascus and the Brits went back on their word.

The Balfour Declaration:(this was after already telling the Arabs they would be in favor of an Arab state for their help against the Turks)

During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

Not only would there be no Arab state but the French would occupy Syria and the Brits occupied what today is Israel and IIRC Trans-Jordan.

After ww2 the Jews demanded that Britain live up to Balfour. When the Brits didn’t the Jews began their own terror campaign and killed many British people and soldiers until the Brits pulled out.

Once the Jews got their state they the went after more land that was apart of the deal.

You can search all the specifics but if you wonder why they hate the west it’s easy to guess that after several generations of lies and exploitation they had enough.

Also Jewish terrorists attacked Arabs after ww2. Search for that. It’s the Jews who brought "terrorism" to the Palestinians not the other way around. Just because they now hide their terrorism behind their "military" doesn’t make it any less "terroristic".

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
besides... this BBS is not necessary

[DmdNexus]

Originally posted by MJHerman

Since I'm tiring of your pro-terrorist/anti-Israel rant, I will chalk your position up to a simple observation on my part:

Those who kill American civilians are terrorists.
Those who kill Israeli civilians are freedom fighters who are just getting even for all the bad things that Jews have done to them.

You want to simplify the conversation... because when the details of the Pal/Israel conflict comes out... it's too complex for you.

it's easier to reduce it to... pure hate.... or religion or something very ambiguous... like they are terrorists and evil... they like to kill just because they like to kill - that logic is BS.

Objectify the enemy - makes it easier to not see them as human... and then you dont' feel bad when you kill them.

That's how Hitler was able to kill as many as he did.. and he even passed laws to make his kind of murder "legal"

Is that it?

The problem is much more... it's about land, it's about water, it's about culture, economics, it's about power... and for some about religion and revenge.... it's a cycle of hate and death... that will perpetuate and spread... violence begats violence..

When does it stop?
How does it stop?

Kill every Palestinian... will that solve the problem?
Kill every Israeli... will that solve the problem?

No..

Understanding the needs of both sides will.

Understanding that the Palestinians and the Israelis both need to feel safe and secure with in their respective boarders... and then meeting that need will bring peace.

It's not just about stopping the violence... that's pure ignorance to think that.

The economic war the Israelis are waging on the Palestinians needs to stop also.

And that's my point... even when there was no violence between the two for, I don't know the eact time... I think there was a period of a few years during Clintons admin... Israel was still grabbing land and waging an economic war.

[Thrawn]

Looks like some here haven't heard of the "Geneva Accord".


"'Geneva Accord' aimed at rescuing Mideast peace
Last Updated Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:53:46

JERUSALEM - After two years of dialogue, senior Palestinian political figures have finalized a symbolic peace pact with left wing Israeli politicians.

The move was initiated by Israeli opposition members to show peace negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians are possible.
 
But members of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's hard-line cabinet dismissed the talks and accused the participants of harming Israel's national interests.

The group consists of intellectuals and politicians from both sides. They have been holding secret talks for two years and say they have reached an agreement. Details are scarce. The two sides say the document will be published next month. But reports say the agreement contains significant concessions by both sides.

It is being called the 'Geneva Accord' and its authors say it will be signed in Switzerland in the next few weeks. It is the culmination of secret talks between Israeli and Palestinian peace activists and politicians, including Yosi Beilin, a former Israeli justice minister, and Yasser Abed Rabbo, a former Palestinian information minister. The Swiss Foreign Ministry mediated and financed the talks.

The deal has no official status, because those involved are not in power. But it is full of the kinds of compromises that have been so elusive in the past.

Under this proposed deal, Palestinians would give up the so-called 'right of return.' They would recognize Israel as 'the state of the Jewish people.' They would prevent terrorist attacks and disarm all militant groups.

Israel would return to its 1967 borders, withdrawing from most Palestinian lands, except for a few of the larger settlements.

Jerusalem would be divided, with Arab neighborhoods in east Jerusalem becoming part of a Palestinian state. A disputed holy site in old Jerusalem, known as the Temple Mount to Jews and as Haram-esh-Sharif to Muslims, would be under Palestinian sovereignty, but monitored by an international force. That international force would also monitor all border crossings.

Although some Palestinian insiders deny foregoing the right of return, the Palestinian Authority says it would accept such a deal.

"I am for any dialogue that leads to peace. In that sense, our view is different from Israel which views these people as traitors even though these are people who signed peace deals in the past," said Palestinian cabinet minister Nabil Shaath.

But news of the accord got a hostile reception from the Israeli government. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says those responsible are trying to bring down his government during "a time of war."

The 'Geneva Accord' will be released with great ceremony in Switzerland on Nov. 4.

Written by CBC News Online staff "

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/13/genevaaccord031013


People on both sides do want, and are working towards peace.

[NUKE]

Nuke: I like the moon



DmdNexus:   Your point being what?

So you are saying you hate Mars?

I guess people are supposed to throw up their hands and forget about Jupiter?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by NUKE
Nuke: I like the moon



DmdNexus:   Your point being what?

So you are saying you hate Mars?

I guess people are supposed to throw up their hands and forget about Jupiter?

In this example a better response would be, "Why do you like the moon?"

But Nuke, you could avoid that by giving supporting arguements for your statement.

Nuke: I like the moon.  I like it because...

[JBA]

Originally posted by Toad
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

knocked that one clear into the next state. Nice job.