Author Topic: How bad is this Administration...? (Read 4595 times)

Gunslinger · « **Reply #105 on:** October 27, 2003, 10:41:47 PM »

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The side that has the greatest obligation to stop is the side with the greatest might - that would be Israelis. Not only should they stop the physical violence but also the land grab which is a different form of agression

Ummm HOLD THE PHONE!

here's were the difference between a terrorist and a nations right to defend itself come into play

What you say there Dmdnexus has been tried AND TRIED AND TRIED AND TRIED.......and EVERY TIME Israel pulls there troops out or pulls out there tanks or says no more fighting..... a school bus or a cafe or a shoping mall filled with woman and children whoGETS BOMBED

how about this:

"the side that has the greatest obligation to stop has neither to do with might or will, but rather a desire in ending wrongfull acts apon both nations and preservation of peace!"

Thrawn · « **Reply #106 on:** October 27, 2003, 11:51:03 PM »

Murder is illegal killing.

Deuteronomy

13:6 If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend, who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, you, nor your fathers;

13:7 of the gods of the peoples who are round about you, near to you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth;

13:8 you shall not consent to him, nor listen to him; neither shall your eye pity him, neither shall you spare, neither shall you conceal him:

13:9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first on him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

I Samuel

15:3 Now go and strike Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and don't spare them; but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Exodus

22:18 "You shall not allow a sorceress to live.

35:2 'Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of solemn rest to Yahweh: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death.

Leviticus

20:27 "'A man or a woman that is a medium, or is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them.'"

21:9 "'The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the prostitute, she profanes her father: she shall be burned with fire.

24:16 He who blasphemes the name of Yahweh, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him: the foreigner as well as the native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

But what in blue blazes does any of this have to do with the current US administration?

Toad · « **Reply #107 on:** October 27, 2003, 11:58:00 PM »

Problem is Thrawn that there just aren't too many Bible Thumper sects out there strapping TNT around their waists and blowing up Israeli Pizza Parlors. Or loading their minivans with TNT and RPG's and driving into Iraqi police stations and pushing the button. Or crashing airplanes into George Carlin shows to kill the blasphemers.

Seems like a pretty big difference to me, but of course some folks will disagree.

Thrawn · « **Reply #108 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:10:28 AM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Seems like a pretty big difference to me, but of course some folks will disagree.

Well, generally I wouldn't be one of them. I'm not about to argue that at this point in history Christians are killing more people, in the name of there religion, than muslims are. Although some are.

I will argue that Muslims in general aren't driven to murder by their religion. To say otherwise I think does a disservous to ourselves. It does a disservice because it offers a simple explanation to why our (our being the "civilised world") enemies act. "Why?". "Oh, their religion.". This will lead to very dangerous tunnel vision. And this is why generalisation, or relying on the fallacy of inductive reasoning is a really bad idea.

Just like Christianity, Jeedaism or what have you, Islam has their murderous fanatics. If there are more, one also has to look at the socio-economic conditions that lead to this. After all Muslisms aren't the only one to employ suicide bombers as a terrorist tactic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #109 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:17:03 AM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim.

Tamil Tigers pre-date Kamikazi?

Thrawn · « **Reply #110 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:41:51 AM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Tamil Tigers pre-date Kamikazi?

Was this nitpick necessary? The sentance before gives the context of suicide bombing as a terrorist tactic.

"After all Muslisms aren't the only one to employ suicide bombers as a terrorist tactic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim."

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #111 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:46:00 AM »

Islam - and really all religions - are often also a very conveniant sacred rallying cry for support by individuals with far more profane political, social and economic agendas...

Admittedly this is a bit of a strech but I will venture out and say that Osama Bin Laden is no more representative of a good muslim than were Jim Baker and his wife Tammy representatives of good Christinas - yet they both influenced very devout belivers to do stupid things harful to themselves and only for the benefit of the leaders whose calls they answered...

Its worth considering especially since we know how Bin Laden and the Taliban and AlQaeda leadership partied and lived lavishly while they preached something else entirely to their followers.

Batz · « **Reply #112 on:** October 28, 2003, 02:47:26 AM »

Protester

Good Christian Counter Protester

Someone get some Fundamentalist Muslim protest sign pic and we can compare them all. This way we can decide whos right.

These were posted on wwiiol ot forum...... They arent mine.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #113 on:** October 28, 2003, 03:15:17 AM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
Was this nitpick necessary? The sentance before gives the context of suicide bombing as a terrorist tactic.

"After all Muslisms aren't the only one to employ suicide bombers as a terrorist tactic. The Tamil Tigers invented the suicide bomber, they aren't Muslim."

jeeze...sorry I didn't use an emoticon...

besides... this BBS is not necessary

DmdNexus · « **Reply #114 on:** October 28, 2003, 07:48:47 AM »

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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What you say there Dmdnexus has been tried AND TRIED AND TRIED AND TRIED.......and EVERY TIME Israel pulls there troops out or pulls out there tanks or says no more fighting..... a school bus or a cafe or a shoping mall filled with woman and children whoGETS BOMBED

You're right.... Israel has stopped the military violence....only to be met with continued suicide bombings.

But why?

Because they did not stop the econmic violence.... and the land grab aggression....

What were the Palestinian complaints?
"Stop the Israelis building settlements on Palestinian land"

Israel has been waging a war of economic against the Palestinians since 1948.

Which is the means of impoverishing your enemy by...
Taking away their resources, demoralizing their population, lowering their standard of living, subjugating their pupulation to menial jobs.

Compare Israeli standard of living to the the Palestinians...
Compare Israeli economic culture to the Palestinians...
Last I heard, Palestinian unemployment is between 40 and 60%.
Many depend upon access to Israel for jobs.... what kind of jobs? Low paying... low tech jobs. High paying and hi-tech jobs go to Israelis.

The Palestinians are a desparate people... and they've turned to desparate means... suicide bombing.

I don't agree with their tactics... but I can understand how they got to where they are.

The Israelis were the first to start the agression and have not ever stopped - even when the guns are silent, they continue to wage economic warfare.

muckmaw · « **Reply #115 on:** October 28, 2003, 08:03:58 AM »

There is a certain amount of truth here in my opinion.

The Israelis are not innocent.

You hear all the media about the suicide bombers, but quietly, in the backround, Israel is still building and maintaining the settlements.

If the Israelis are as desperate for peace as they say they are, why do they keep antagonzing the Palastinians with the settlements? Are they that important? Or are we seeing Land Grab greed on both sides?

Do the Israelis believe once they take the settlements down, the Palastinains will simply demand something else?

There are groups on both sides of the issue that would prefer to see the opponent exterminated.

Eagler · « **Reply #116 on:** October 28, 2003, 08:29:00 AM »

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Originally posted by muckmaw
Do the Israelis believe once they take the settlements down, the Palastinains will simply demand something else?

yep - the elimination of Israel -every man woman and child- that's all

that is the goal of the pal terrorist - nothing less - that is why the bombings increase whenever peace raises its weary head

MJHerman · « **Reply #117 on:** October 28, 2003, 08:33:01 AM »

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Originally posted by muckmaw
There is a certain amount of truth here in my opinion.

The Israelis are not innocent.

You hear all the media about the suicide bombers, but quietly, in the backround, Israel is still building and maintaining the settlements.

If the Israelis are as desperate for peace as they say they are, why do they keep antagonzing the Palastinians with the settlements? Are they that important? Or are we seeing Land Grab greed on both sides?

Do the Israelis believe once they take the settlements down, the Palastinains will simply demand something else?

There are groups on both sides of the issue that would prefer to see the opponent exterminated.

I will be the first to say that the settlements shouldn't be there at all. They do antagonize and incite the lawful owners of those lands, and in that sense the territories which were occupied in 1967 are occupied territories. Israelis have no business living there, and as far as I am concerned, if a Palestinian desires to self-detonate himself or herself within the confines of the West Bank or Gaza, so be it. In as much as Palestinians are radical in the methods they pursue, the Israeli settlers are more so.

But understand this....the Palestinians are not out to reclaim the West Bank and Gaza, or even to reclaim the lands that were on the Arab side of the fence following the 1947 partition; they are out to eradicate Israel as a state.

So yes, it is a "land grab" on both sides. If the settlements were dismantled tomorrow, the bombings would continue. So what incentive is there for an Israeli to extend any concessions?

Put another way...if the US suddenly had pulled all of its troops out of the Middle East, do you think that Osama grievances with the United States would have suddenly evaporated and all of radical Islam would have instantly gotten together for a group hug with Uncle Sam?

DmdNexus · « **Reply #118 on:** October 28, 2003, 08:56:59 AM »

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Originally posted by Eagler
yep - the elimination of Israel -every man woman and child- that's all

that is the goal of the pal terrorist - nothing less - that is why the bombings increase whenever peace raises its weary head

Yes it's easier to understand, hate, and kill when world views are boiled down to simpleton views like this.

A palestinian baby isn't born with hate in their hearts... it's cultivated by the environment... and environment created first by the Israelis, and then by the Palestinians... and cultivated by the hatred of both sides.

The violence stops when both sides are ready to stop it.

I think the security wall is a very good ideal.. but it should run along the established legal boarders and the Israeli settlers should be moved out of Palestinian lands.

DmdNexus · « **Reply #119 on:** October 28, 2003, 09:08:58 AM »

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Originally posted by MJHerman
they are out to eradicate Israel as a state.

Who are "they"?
That sounds like a very big generalization.
Every Palestinian? No that's not true.

Many Palestinians want peace...
Many Israelis want peace...
Many Arab nations have already made peace with Israel and have recognized their existence as a state.

Israel took all the best farm land and land with resources away from the Palestinians...

How would you like to be forced off your ancestrial farm land which was fertile and rich and given a piece of dirt that you can't grow anything on?

Another issue are the fresh water aquifer - Israel already grabbed the best ones... and that's partly why they are buliding in the occupied territories... there's a huge fresh water aquifer underneath it, and they are trying to grab it.

The public likes to think simply... because that's as much as they can understand...

The story behind the story is always more complex.