Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bustr on July 26, 2013, 04:47:03 PM
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In the last year or so you don't see the giant NOE hoard missions that earned the "Devils Brigade" or the vGuys the name vTards or vHoard. Across the 3 countries they worked very well to take bases quickly and efficiently.
Everyone complained and kvetched over NOE and hoards. I wonder if the peer pressure and social stigmatizing worked? And now we look at NOE missions the same as we stigmatize social IZM's = HATER or EVIL. Or, NOE = Sissy or Coward.
Regardless of the perceived unfairness, gaminess, EASY MODE, or lack of cohones. They were a source of activity and concentration of players that could be relied upon for action. Now our action if a mission happens is 20-30 guys arriving 15-20k. They drop the relevant hangers if they are any good, then vulch and runaway at alt if opposed too effectively. At least with the NOE you had to drop the relevant hangers and running away was co-alt with the defenders. More often a running fight instead of safely at alt thumbing your nose at low fools who want to fight while you run away. Seems we achieved another of those unintended consequences of forced social engineering by Mob peer pressure in this game.
NOE = Evil cowards who don't want to stand and fight. But, Altitude = knights of the sky's who want everyone to know where they are, ready to fight all challengers. Altitude = Safest place to hide in plain sight for 80% of the players.
I miss the NOE hoards. Everyone was below 10k making fighting them a reasonable proposition even outnumbered. By expending our community effort to stigmatize NOE, we have driven missions above 10k if missions happen at all. And taught those not inclined to fight anyway how much safer altitude is for cheap shots and running away.
There has always been timidness in the play style of the average player base in our game forever whined about by the self anointed skillz gods. But, the 80% would follow the bolder players in missions in the past. Now we kvetch over the timidness and cowardess of the 80% for only wanting to fly above 15k and never fighting other than to pick and runaway. We have even discussed in this forum the slow down in missions. Missions used to be a concentrated source of low altitude action at one time with the 80% fighting or attempting to runaway where you could get at them.
So we showed them the secret to surviving if that's all you want to do day in and day out in this game in our effort to eliminate NOE. The 80% will never change because that's who they are. But, they will follow the lead of the more accomplished players as long as that lead gives them the illusion of survival other than as ACM fodder to a DA god.
Big NOE missions that obliterate fields like the old days will give those who pay attention to the map action all night long. And get the 80% back down in the game. The really good furballs with die hards don't happen until after 9pm Pacific Coast Time.
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By expending our community effort to stigmatize NOE, we have driven missions above 10k if missions happen at all.
I absolutely disagree with that. No amount of yadayadda on the forum or in game could have made that happen. Do you see players less hoing? Less running to ack? Less ganging? All of this had been 'stigmatised' like NOE's for ages, and nothing ever changed. NOE's didn't get less used because anybody complained about them.
They did get used because folks just see other means of attacking bases being more effective by that. NOE's had been he easy way until the DAR settings were changed. Since then, they gradually disappeared (even though they are technically not that difficult if you kill dars first, but don't get me started on the topic 'coordination')
A P-38 or Pony raid coming in screaming at 15K more effective today. It still is over the base (and can shut it down) long before the defenders can react, and as not the severe E issues a NOE has when detected early.
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What i did noticed apart from the decline of my NOE (I used to spend whole evenings & nights nothing else but defending vs NOE after NOE) is the apparent disappearence of missions overall. Very few missions do I see these days, and those are limited to smash & grab. Even before my break i haven't seen a proper bomber mission being posted in public for weeks, if not months. Some of it may be casued by the decline in numbers, we had more players back in time when Kazaa was running his Sunday Euro afternoon bombing raids (~2006)
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Earl ran a couple a month or so back. Both times they were waiting for us in huge numbers.
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In my opinion it's because base taking is old and outdated, and feels very copy and paste / rinse and repeat..
Dog fights always feel new because the altitude of your enemy, aircraft and pilot are nearly impossible to predict.. leading to a "new" fight feeling each sortie..
but as far as bases go.. they are always the same, the process of capturing one is nearly always the same.. and it tends to get old fast and not retain the interest of a large majority of the players..
You really only need to take a base once in your AH career to know what its like and then immediately feel like "been there done that"
The base taking system could use an overhaul.
:salute
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In my opinion it's because base taking is old and outdated, and feels very copy and paste / rinse and repeat..
Dog fights always feel new because the altitude of your enemy, aircraft and pilot are nearly impossible to predict.. leading to a "new" fight feeling each sortie..
but as far as bases go.. they are always the same, the process of capturing one is nearly always the same.. and it tends to get old fast and not retain the interest of a large majority of the players..
You really only need to take a base once in your AH career to know what its like and then immediately feel like "been there done that"
The base taking system could use an overhaul.
:salute
Hmmm, brb making a new topic.
I agree though, NOE seems to have lead to more furballs, which are fun :devil
Tinkles
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Until you overhaul it, you need to get the 80% non skillz regular average players back down into the game.
Blu think about what you just said. The 80% have stopped participating because they were shown the absolute best way to survive. For the 80%, survival is their driving force and they are not interested in what gives you a woodie in the air. Unless you are willing to think like them and help solve their issues, you are fostering their problem. If you want more of them to feed on, you gotta stop thinking like an elitist skillz gauwd. Who gives a ratz toody. They used to fly at furball alt because they liked NOE missions and tolerated getting whacked by skillz guys for their $14.95.
This game is about all of us, and to 80% of us, field capturing is a lot of work and source of engaging action that they can manage. There are more of them than you. 80% is a lot of $14.95. I'm sure you know the LWMA is not the DA.
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Until you overhaul it, you need to get the 80% non skillz regular average players back down into the game.
Blu think about what you just said. The 80% have stopped participating because they were shown the absolute best way to survive. For the 80%, survival is their driving force and they are not interested in what gives you a woodie in the air. Unless you are willing to think like them and help solve their issues, you are fostering their problem. If you want more of them to feed on, you gotta stop thinking like an elitist skillz gauwd. Who gives a ratz toody. They used to fly at furball alt because they liked NOE missions and tolerated getting whacked by skillz guys for their $14.95.
This game is about all of us, and to 80% of us, field capturing is a lot of work and source of engaging action that they can manage. There are more of them than you. 80% is a lot of $14.95. I'm sure you know the LWMA is not the DA.
I don't need to think about what I just said.. because I wrote it. :)
I never mentioned anything about an 80% figure, and I'm not sure why you think I have an "elitist skillz gauwd" mentality..
maybe you need to re-read what I wrote...
I'm making the point that base taking is boring, and the system should be overhauled. I never said that everyone in game agrees with my opinion that its boring..
but then again if you are looking for everyone to agree with you.. why make a thread..
:salute
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In the last year or so you don't see the giant NOE hoard missions that... <snip>
I'm with Bustr on this, and even though we're squadies this is the first he has brough this subject up for discussion (at least with me around)...
I always thought "The NOE Nurf" that lowered the radar altitude limits was TOO agressive, but the falacy in that statement might be my assumption that these settings were something that was going to be further adjusted/tweaked/honed. I think the pseudo name it inherited kind of tells the story - "The NOE Nurf" killed (in comparison to before and after prevolence of them) large offensive NOE missions, intended or not by HTCs. They still exist, but before this change there used to be one if not two and hour in the MAs.
Personaly, I though before the change in radar altitudes, it was too easy to herd the cats in below the radar without any enemy detection (and these were massive "mishuns"), but after the change it made it too challenging for your average/mediocre pilot/subscriber. And despite what we all may say about ourselves or others in this community (IE: on 200 or in this forum), I think a majority of the customer base falls into the mediocre/average capability category.
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NOE = a fight. Executed correctly and without being accidently or purposely discovered, they can be hard to stop on a small field. First 4 kill the hangars and set cap if anything gets up or a hangar is missed, the rest put down town and call in the goons that were timed to be there waiting.
But, they rarely go as planned. They get caught on the deck 1/2 way there, someone pops dar for a few seconds and an observant enemy catches it, targets are missed, troops dropped wrong, a guy in a chute makes it to the map room, someone sneaks in supplies, the guys from scrambled from the next base over get there and kill the troops just in time, etc. Sometimes it starts a long furball and others its all over quickly with or without a capture. I think they can be fun from either side. Not a steady diet of them but they can be a hoot.
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What I've been seeing more of is smaller, tactical NOE missions, as opposed to the big NOE hordes that would steamroller a bunch of bases in quick succession. What they're doing more of is trying to take the bases that dominate an area or are easy to defend (ports away from airfields, the end of a chain of GV spawns, airbases next to vehicle fields, bases in choke-points, etc).
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What's NOE mean? :bolt:
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What's NOE mean? :bolt:
Not overly exciting
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On the water maps they are still pretty popular. Getting un-skilled players to follow terrain is pretty tough add that into the "spiez" blowing missions most don't bother anyone. On the maps with a lot a shore line bases you will see many NOE's.
I don't need to think about what I just said.. because I wrote it. :)
I never mentioned anything about an 80% figure, and I'm not sure why you think I have an "elitist skillz gauwd" mentality..
maybe you need to re-read what I wrote...
I'm making the point that base taking is boring, and the system should be overhauled. I never said that everyone in game agrees with my opinion that its boring..
but then again if you are looking for everyone to agree with you.. why make a thread..
:salute
Yes they are boring because nobody puts any effort into running "good" missions any more. Maybe with the lack of skill it's more like herding cats than it is running a mission. Good missions involve more than "everyone grab your hvy plane of choice, first four guys in hit the FH's, next two hit the VH and everyone else hit the town." Good missions need things to capture the interest of players be it historical, or something that may be a bit out there, but just might work.
Today's players are too tied up in the "end game" be it grab a base or win the war. Eventually they either quit (most of them it seems) or they advance and figure out the "journey" to that end game is far more satisfying. Fighting the battles is more important than whether you win or lose it ... tho I prefer to win :P Running good missions takes a lot of time in the planning and keeping a reign on the cats you have along. Mugz, Taz, Ripsnort, and a few other use to the "go to guys" when ever they logged on it was "Make a mission!" and they rarely got any peace until they did.
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What's NOE mean? :bolt:
In aviation: Nap of the Earth flying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nap-of-the-earth
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When NOE was adjusted for with RADAR to castrate it because "those who know better than others" complained along with demonizing NOE for being detrimental to the survival of our game. Now NOE is only for retarded weanie noob cowards who dare to up NOE missions. They got what They whined for. And the same unintended consequences we always get that are worse than what was whined to get rid of.
The 20% always think in terms of themselves and what bores them. Ergo, it must bore everyone else because you are so superior to the 80%. Tank-Ace has nothing good to say about NOE. But, he has nothing good to replace it with for the 80% who are emotionally happy with being in a giant NOE herd doing something together and feeling good about themselves. So he will be at the closing of the doors due to not enough subscriptions screaming with the bored self serving 20% skillz crowd it's all the stupid no skillz 80% noobs fault this game failed. Because he knows better than them.
After 11 years one thing is sure. The 80% liked NOE hoard missions because it made up for their lack of time, lack of skill(or interest to polish their posteriors in the DA) and presented them their best use of their $14.95 to have FUN. NOE had the longest run of generating action and something to do of any other activity in the MA. Now that "those who know better than others" have killed it by whining to Hitech and with peer pressure. The 80% spend their time hiding above 15k running away and "those who know better than others" now whine about the lack of game play, action and skillz. How the heck did the know betters become so dumb to ignore the Laws of unintended consequences??
Giant NOE hoards work, and the 80% will willingly follow the crowd and make themselves available to combat at the target destination to the defenders below their current nose bleed hiding alts.
Hitech please put the radar back where it once was so we can get the NOE hoards going again. At least the newer players will fight then, from the perceived safety of their numbers. I'm not sure the 20%er's judgment can be trusted after all of these years of their grand game social engineering experiments they beg you for. They are still complaining about the same things after each change you grant them fails to keep the 80% engaged and being their targets. Give the 80% something that makes them happy and suits their emotional needs. NOE, because it doesn't take game skillz supermen to make an NOE mission successful and rewarding for $14.95 a month.
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Hitech please put the radar back where it once was so we can get the NOE hoards going again. At least the newer players will fight then, from the perceived safety of their numbers. I'm not sure the 20%er's judgment can be trusted after all of these years of their grand game social engineering experiments they beg you for. They are still complaining about the same things after each change you grant them fails to keep the 80% engaged and being their targets. Give the 80% something that makes them happy and suits their emotional needs. NOE, because it doesn't take game skillz supermen to make an NOE mission successful and rewarding for $14.95 a month.
+100 on this.
NOEs were a nice break from the normal climb high, drop everything in sight and fight down the uppers that where there base take. Now with guys in M3s waiting outside of town when bombers are overhead.. Seems like 1 minute after the town has been leveled it's back 100%.
The M3 resupply goes opposite of the reason the dar alt was reduced (to encourage fights if I understand it correctly). Now more guys up M3s to resupply then there are guys upping to go fight the mission inbound.
Just my .02
Carry on. :salute
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I don't need to think about what I just said.. because I wrote it. :)
I never mentioned anything about an 80% figure, and I'm not sure why you think I have an "elitist skillz gauwd" mentality..
maybe you need to re-read what I wrote...
I'm making the point that base taking is boringjust like furballing and most things in this game, and the system should be overhauled. I never said that everyone in game agrees with my opinion that its boring..
but then again if you are looking for everyone to agree with you.. why make a thread..
:salute
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Nancy Reagan finally shut up? :devil
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The thril of a NOE mission is fun. :t
fighting noe hordes sux. :frown: (if i die) :lol
:headscratch:
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Devil Dogs ran an NOE mission last weekend. Came over the water at wave level. Went feet dry, and had the capture within five minutes. It was a lot of fun. Woke the other side up, and had some good fights soon after.
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Hitech please put the radar back where it once was so we can get the NOE hoards going again. At least the newer players will fight then, from the perceived safety of their numbers. I'm not sure the 20%er's judgment can be trusted after all of these years of their grand game social engineering experiments they beg you for. They are still complaining about the same things after each change you grant them fails to keep the 80% engaged and being their targets. Give the 80% something that makes them happy and suits their emotional needs. NOE, because it doesn't take game skillz supermen to make an NOE mission successful and rewarding for $14.95 a month.
20%ers?
Who are the 20%ers you speak of?
JUGgler
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NOE missions are most useful if you are low in numbers and want to take the base by surprise. A jokers horde doesn't need NOE because they've already got 30 guys at their disposal (half will auger like noobs). A mission that climbs out is a lot more fun IMO. They are more fun to intercept, and more fun to fly in.
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A mission that climbs out is a lot more fun IMO. They are more fun to intercept, and more fun to fly in.
I agree.
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Sounds like bustr is having some difficulties not smacking into the trees.
Anyways, I don't think NOE is bad in and of itself, I use it often. What I think is bad are the massive NOE hordes that used to steamroller base after base; yes, I think a modicum of challenge should be involved in taking a base. Oh how depraved and malicious I am :rolleyes:.
Lets be realistic; the 200ft NOE limit was comically over-lenient. A 2 weeker using a mouse was capable of flying NOE with that generous of a limit. That being said, I do think the 65ft limit is a bit draconian; it can be very difficult to stay under radar when flying over land at even moderately high speeds. Especially considering that you have to judge what 65ft AGL is based purely on what feels like 65ft. I wouldn't be opposed to raising the radar altitude to 100ft.
Finally, bustr, I don't appreciate it when you try and attach motive to my (and others') actions, when you yourself are speaking from a position of total ignorance. Not one question from you as to my thoughts and reasoning, yet you arrogantly presume to know my motivations. So just pipe down a bit, you verbose little troll.
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After coming back to AH, I'm glad to see that NOE raids are extremely infrequent. Going back to several years ago, they happened far too often and were effective to the point that barely anything could be done about them. It's a lot more fun to fly higher altitude raids, anyway.
Good riddance.
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Honestly don't know what you are talking about buster. I see NOE raids everyday. Both the jokers and alchemist do them all the time. They send a single radar killer out first to kill dar.
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Devil Dogs ran an NOE mission last weekend. Came over the water at wave level. Went feet dry, and had the capture within five minutes. It was a lot of fun. Woke the other side up, and had some good fights soon after.
This is how they still happen, no trees to run into over the water :devil
I agree.
Hap, you remember the missions the Mafia ran? Mule would puzzle out launch and climb times for days to put one together. Was a blast to be vectoring in and see a bunch of buffs moving in on the waypoint so you could rendezvous and cover into the target.
Sounds like bustr is having some difficulties not smacking into the trees.
Anyways, I don't think NOE is bad in and of itself, I use it often. What I think is bad are the massive NOE hordes that used to steamroller base after base; yes, I think a modicum of challenge should be involved in taking a base. Oh how depraved and malicious I am :rolleyes:.
Lets be realistic; the 200ft NOE limit was comically over-lenient. A 2 weeker using a mouse was capable of flying NOE with that generous of a limit. That being said, I do think the 65ft limit is a bit draconian; it can be very difficult to stay under radar when flying over land at even moderately high speeds. Especially considering that you have to judge what 65ft AGL is based purely on what feels like 65ft. I wouldn't be opposed to raising the radar altitude to 100ft.
Finally, bustr, I don't appreciate it when you try and attach motive to my (and others') actions, when you yourself are speaking from a position of total ignorance. Not one question from you as to my thoughts and reasoning, yet you arrogantly presume to know my motivations. So just pipe down a bit, you verbose little troll.
This! NOE's have a place in the game but not as a way to hide 30 players! Have 20 players make a high alt attack on a field and the other 10 make an NOE run on another base at the same time. Element of surprise helps the NOE as well as the distraction the main attack brings. Even once the NOE is discovered it adds to the distraction at the main attack as some of those defenders leave to save (get easy kills) at the NOE site. Both missions could fail but would most likely succeed. On top of that you have made TWO fights, neither overwhelming in force so more fun for attackers AND defenders both. <---- and THAT is the sign of a good mission.
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NOE 110s and 111s ............sounds like a blast to me. Pun intended :rock
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Honestly don't know what you are talking about buster. I see NOE raids everyday.
But how many? Only fraction is being done these days.
I'm not exaggerating when i say that before the dar adjustment, I spend whole evenings with nothing but sitting in tower waiting for a noe - and I had not wait for to long, hopping from base to base in either reaction to an NOE or upping for an expected one.
These days I could sit in the tower until all my hair was grey when I'd try to dot he same ;)
On the other hand I fully understand the huge frustration about the NOEs of that time. Being on the receiving end for huge NOE raids for hours sucked for many players, losing bases and not having any initiative.
However, not all of that was just caused by the tool of NOE. It still happens, countries still get steamrolled some times.
My main issue with base captures which affected both NOE as 15k P-38 base shutdown raids is the total randomness. All bases are 'worth' the same to reset & victory, there is no overall target your are pushing towards, nor have the bases different values on their own.
That way, it's only about pure base count, resulting in attacks here & there all over the place. And that's what you can hardly defend and where the defender almost always comes one step behind the attacker. With the war not being won by capturing Berlin, but by a surprise raid on a remote Danish fishing village :rolleyes:
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I was gone for a while, can someone explain to me how the dar was changed and how it works now.
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See Luche's answer below. He is right, I was wrong. :p
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Both darbar as well as dot dar had been 500ft, and now they are 65 and 250ft
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Both darbar as well as dot dar had been 500ft, and now they are 65 and 250ft
Just a suggestion. In your previous post you said that currently there is no strategical value between bases. Capture berlin or a "danish fishing village" and it is technically worth the same, yes?
So perhaps the war should be changed from base numbers to resources? Like certain types of bases have certain things, in order to win the war you have to have a certain amount of this, with that the other thing and some of whatever.
I know it would be a complete and utter overhaul on the base system, but I think that is truly what is 'stale', the fact that it doesn't matter that you attack that strategical airfield or vbase next to the strats, or that base faar away from combat. They are both worth the same, in my opinion, that is wrong.
Tinkles
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:salute
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Lusche, do you know/remember why either hearsay or official the reason the strat system was changed from a zone system to what we have now?
Zone bases use to be something worth fighting over and were always a rallying cry to help with either the defense or the attack.
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Lusche, do you know/remember why either hearsay or official the reason the strat system was changed from a zone system to what we have now?
I don't know of any official reason.
A wild guess by me was that they may had that stuff already built for Combat Tour / Tour of Duty, but as said: Just a wild guess.
I for one am still glad about the new strats and their (finally fixed) impact on the arena and would never get back to the old zone factory system, which would again raider true long range sorties pointless. But I am all for additional, new zones with resources in form of zone railyards ;)
My dream would be a true central target to be captured or killed for the win, so that the enemy would have to fight his way towards it. Sidestepping or opening a second front would still be possible, but not always desireable. In the end, there would be a large goal you would be thrusting towards, which would creatle more clearly defined "frontlines" and battles, with a possible 'epic' end battle.
I just have not found a way to implement it within the limits of our 3 country setup. :(
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My dream would be a true central target to be captured or killed for the win, so that the enemy would have to fight his way towards it. Sidestepping or opening a second front would still be possible, but not always desireable. In the end, there would be a large goal you would be thrusting towards, which would creatle more clearly defined "frontlines" and battles, with a possible 'epic' end battle.
I just have not found a way to implement it within the limits of our 3 country setup. :(
What if the maps were set up so that one country defended that object and the other two were coming from each side, trying to reach it first. Defender wins the map if neither side takes it in a certain time period.
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I don't know of any official reason.
A wild guess by me was that they may had that stuff already built for Combat Tour / Tour of Duty, but as said: Just a wild guess.
IIRC it was to increase strategic bomber play or high-altitude fighting, or something to that effect. Worked out great, eh?
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What if the maps were set up so that one country defended that object and the other two were coming from each side, trying to reach it first. Defender wins the map if neither side takes it in a certain time period.
While I for one would like it very much (as long as I could be the outnumbered defender)...
I'd say that the overwhelming majority on the 'Defender' team would massively complain about this setup.
And probably a lot on the other side as well, as ENY limits would have to be much more severe to cope with this institutionalized gangbang.
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IIRC it was to increase strategic bomber play or high-altitude fighting, or something to that effect. Worked out great, eh?
I'd say it worked out well, not great, as we rarely see the proper big bomber raids and defenses I was hoping for. But then, we generally have a lack in big missions (apart from some standard smash&grabs).
But ever since the strats were finally made working, almost all my own play has revolved around it, either as a strat raider or as a strat defender. Since then, my kills of bombers do outnumber my kills of fighters. And I would hardly have 134 kills of and 168 kills in B-29 today if it weren't for the new strats :devil
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In my opinion it's because base taking is old and outdated, and feels very copy and paste / rinse and repeat..
Dog fights always feel new because the altitude of your enemy, aircraft and pilot are nearly impossible to predict.. leading to a "new" fight feeling each sortie..
but as far as bases go.. they are always the same, the process of capturing one is nearly always the same.. and it tends to get old fast and not retain the interest of a large majority of the players..
You really only need to take a base once in your AH career to know what its like and then immediately feel like "been there done that"
The base taking system could use an overhaul.
:salute
I guess I don't see what your talking about Blu. The same variables you refer to in "Dog Fights" are just as applicable to "Base Taking". The difference, IMHO, is in your (the players) objective, a good dog fight, or a base take with good dog fights (note the plural). As I understand it, if you want dog fights only, you go to the DA. :cheers:
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While I for one would like it very much (as long as I could be the outnumbered defender)...
I'd say that the overwhelming majority on the 'Defender' team would massively complain about this setup.
And probably a lot on the other side as well, as ENY limits would have to be much more severe to cope with this institutionalized gangbang.
Maybe there could be a central object that everyone battles over, that holding for more than x amount of time results in a win. The strats and base taking that currently exist could be retooled as a way to diminish that country's capacity to make war.
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I do miss the "9 pound hammer" NOE mission...especially the "alamo" missions deep into enemy territory. Pure brute force taking a base.
Would be nice to see some of those missions again.
PS - I once flew a goon 5 sectors to take a base only to find I dropped vehicle supplies...Just the comedy that ensued was worth it.
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Just leaned what NOE means can someone tell me what IMO means plz :salute
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Just leaned what NOE means can someone tell me what IMO means plz :salute
IMO- In My Opinion
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IMO- In My Opinion
thanks blue
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People who are going to hide are going to hide. People who are going to fight will do the same. Hiders = 80% while Fighters = 20%. You cannot force people to become fighters if they want to feel safe. But, you can manage them based on wanting to feel safe.
If you make them feel safe as a hoard sneaking around doing things together. At least they are delivering themselves to an eventual known location where they can be fought against. Odds are they will capture more fields than you can kill them all over time. This group success will keep them coming back. They will never think or act out of a kiddy game fighter's motivation. As so I doubt most of you would never long for being dropped into a hot LZ to get shot at by angry people in the real world.
Aside from the 8th AAF and British Bomber Command's Bomber streams into the continent. Secrecy and sneaking to the target as much as possible was the norm for other endeavors. The job of the aircrew was not to die but, to destroy the target and enemy. The radar numbers in the MA once in force for NOE minimums allowed the 80% to feel somewhat secure, and for that they created constant action in the MA. We no longer have that kind of constant action by the 80% and lower numbers.
You cannot turn an apple into an orange no matter how much you remodel the kitchen.
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Bustr, you keep talking about NOE's creating 'action'. I was around for a while before the radar changes, I remember what defense was like. The NOE more often than not would come in unseen, pop, flatten the hangars, deal with the few guys that managed to get up, level the town and capture.
During that timeframe from pop to capture, it was extraordinarily rare that defense had time to up from the next field over and get there before the field had been captured and the enemy disappeared. It was like playing whackamole.
At least with the way it is now, you can see them coming and have a chance to mount a reasonable defense. Most people don't utilize the opportunity, but that's on them, not because it's not possible.
Wiley.
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You see the lower end of the 20% coming because they are willing to be seen to fight today. I only see the 80% if the mission is big enough for them to feel safe.
The vTards were all 80% when they started. But, because they felt safe they created activity for years. Years before them missions were NOE along with newbies running NOE missions getting experience along with confidence. Success breeds confidence. The 20% whined and got the radar changed just like you are complaining about finding the NOE missions was like playing WhakAMole to defend against. Waaa it's unfair, I can't find all the easy to kill 80% who won't stand and let me slaughter them...boohoo Hitech make them stand and fight or I'll cancel my subscription and call you names on the Internet.
Ok now you have fewer missions and fewer players because the 20% got the game tweeked into a big boys only play pen. How do you think those 80% who might have graduated into the 20% got the breathing room, cheap kills and confidence to graduate? And all the 20% whined about easy acess to the 80% instead of agreeing to meet somewhere and 20% themselves to death. Instead the 20% spends most of it's free time harvesting 80% or whining about the strategies the 80% come up with to avoid getting annihilated by 20%.
The old NOE provided the Level1 easy mode for newbies to survive long enough and achieve something to feel good about staying in the game. Now the MA is Level100 from the moment you spawn dominated by Whining Bosses of death crying for the lost herds of 80%.
You cannot turn an apple into an orange no matter how much you remodel the kitchen. Learn how to cook with both fruit instead.
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Ok now you have fewer missions and fewer players because the 20% got the game tweeked into a big boys only play pen.
I don't agree with that implication of having less players nowadays because the NOE was changed. The "loss' of players (which may simply be a lack of getting enough new ones into the game) is a process that had been largely a gradual one and started long before any changes to the NOE were made.
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Take away all the hiding places for the hiding prone and they will hide somewhere else not in your game. The 80% are hiding prone in all of life's endeavors be it in a real world hot LZ or in a My Pretty Pony jousting match online.
The old NOE minimums were the only easy mode in the MA that the 80% could hide from the 20% and accomplish something. Sure it was abused. But, we had people mindlessly day after day happily hiding on the maps in large groups taking undefended bases accepting occasionally they would get caught. And it didn't take much to tell if an NOE was at the dar ring. Most of the 20% just wanted the 80% to make them not have to work very hard at finding them. The 80% do not want to fight the 20% in heads up fights. They loose badly, and don't want to keep feeding themselves to the 20%. Most of them also don't have either the time or the interest to live in the DA unlike the 20%. All they want to do is login and go piu, piu, piu.
The vTards were a case study in what motivates, and coping strategies that the 80% uses to stick it out in a game like this dominated by Level100 Whining Death Bosses.
At some point the game has gotta cater to the 80% or the 20% is gonna be awfully lonely by themselves on our monstrosity maps whining at each other about how the 80% cowards killed the game by leaving it. 20% always think about this game from their perspective. It's good to be one of the swingers of the stick opposed to the recipient of the beating. After awhile people get tired of being beaten and leave if you eliminate their coping mechanisms.
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Oh, brother....
I guarantee you 100% the only reason hordes went NOE was to steamroll a surprised target and they produced NO "action" at all. They would find the most ignored field to attack, find the quietest front, and hide the entire time. Even after steamrolling a field and capturing it in seconds, they were timid sheep and avoided all contact with the enemy.
Blaming it on the radar settings is rubbish, and an obvious scapegoat.
If you changed fields so that hangars couldn't be taken down 100%, but left radar the same, NOE hordes would disappear just as readily. They can't stand up to the light of day. It's not the game settings, it's the quality of character of the people doing it.
The lack of such activity is a boon to the game. NOT a detriment.
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It seems folks can look out the same window and see vastly different views. I'll take 300 more players at prime time and they can NOE or spawn 110s in a dive at 6000' over the town with bombs hot. I just want stuff to shoot at.
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It's a false assumption to assume that since people don't NOE they are no longer playing. The same people are here, just doing something else.
Blame the WORST economic downturn in our country's history for the lack of players. That's what happened to me, for sure. I've heard comments to let me know I'm not alone, too.
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The vTards were a case study in what motivates, and coping strategies that the 80% uses to stick it out in a game like this dominated by Level100 Whining Death Bosses.
No, they were a case study in what happens to players who stick with the same old plan (even tho it worked for them) and never took the time to advance, or explore any alternatives.
THEY GOT BORED AND LEFT.
Sure not all of them are gone. You can see a few here and there that made the change to try something else with in the game. It happens to all the "big" squads that used numbers to roll bases instead of skill. The BOPs, that big squad that "tunes" should up with all his alter egos (tunes 1 tunes 2 tunes 3 and so on). Even people with no imagination will get bored doing the same thing over and over. And so it happens with them.... as so many others.
Im sure some time in the future as long as the game is still around, some one will come up with a great idea to take large numbers of players NOE all over the map taking base after base and believing that they thought of it first.
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Bustr, I'm seriously starting to think you have no idea what the HELL you're talking about. Literally, your portrayal of the old NOEs is about as idealized and glorified as it can be without making even Hitech want to beat you to death with your own keyboard.
You also seem to be fond of this "20%" straw man you've erected. As though Lusche, and Fugitive and I simply wanted to do away with NOE so we could gorge our kill stats on noobs. I can't say for Lusche, but I know Fuge used to fly the P-39 a fair bit. And aside from when I'm defending, or headhunting, I typically fly planes like the 109E, Ki-61, etc. why in God's name would we do that if we're trying to max our kills?
I mean you have bits and pieces right, but it really does seem as though our drive to be better than before is just so incomprehensible to you, that you've had to fabricate this fantasy world to make sense of it.
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The old NOE minimums were the only easy mode in the MA that the 80% could hide from the 20% and accomplish something.
False. The horde works just fine to accomplish the same thing, plus they might have a chance of actually seeing an enemy aircraft once in a while.
Wiley.
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As though Lusche, and Fugitive and I simply wanted to do away with NOE so we could gorge our kill stats on noobs.
Just for the record, I did not lobby for such a thing. And directly after the change I stated here that I found it too harsh now.
Actually I have always enjoyed fighting against NOE attacks, but that's just a personal view. I know that many were entirely frustrated with it.
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For the "more chance to fight a altitude horde than a NOE hord"e argument: I'm really not sure if I can agree with that from experience.
If not detected at takeoff, a P-38 hangars smash strike most of the time does not meet more resistance than the NOE of old, as most players only start to pay attention when the base starts to flash and the dots appear on dar. And unlike defending a NOE, any defender upping at that point or later is at a decisive E disadvantage, and the 38's will just swoop down and drop the hangars with ease, having plenty of E to zoom back up and start the pickings. With a NOE raid attacking you are on a somewhat more even footing in terms of E.
Unless they flying into an area already filled with enemy fighters due to a prolonged battle in the area, I never see 15k hangar smash Jabo raids being stopped before they reach the target. I see much more of a 'problem' in them than in the old NOE raids.
And someone mentioned the "whack-a-mole" issue again... jest, that's been the problem of the NOE's but still is the same problem now. As I elaborated earlier, that's not a result of the missiontype but at the uniform 'worth' the bases have for the final victory which is just based on mere base count.
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what a joke we run at least 1 noe a day
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For the "more chance to fight a altitude horde than a NOE hord"e argument: I'm really not sure if I can agree with that from experience.
If not detected at takeoff, a P-38 hangars smash strike most of the time does not meet more resistance than the NOE of old, as most players only start to pay attention when the base starts to flash and the dots appear on dar. And unlike defending a NOE, any defender upping at that point or later is at a decisive E disadvantage, and the 38's will just swoop down and drop the hangars with ease, having plenty of E to zoom back up and start the pickings. With a NOE raid attacking you are on a somewhat more even footing in terms of E.
Unless they flying into an area already filled with enemy fighters due to a prolonged battle in the area, I never see 15k hangar smash Jabo raids being stopped before they reach the target. I see much more of a 'problem' in them than in the old NOE raids.
I would respectfully submit there's a major distinction between people not paying attention having the horde come in and people not being able to respond until they see the NOE horde pop. Regardless of what people actually do, it's possible to respond to a bardar. It's not possible to respond effectively to a properly executed NOE smash and grab.
Funny how different people have such wildly different experiences. From what I saw, NOE's were rarely ever stopped and if they were discovered, they never made a push, just died off and reappeared in another remote section of the map. I see hordes halted every once in a while if enough people happen to be in tower and notice when the bardar starts brewing. Sometimes it even turns into a fight.
Wiley.
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what a joke we run at least 1 noe a day
Laughable. I'd estimate between 40-100 NOE missions per day in, er, the heyday.
I personally miss the NOE runs. There's nothing like the feeling of a large formation of aircraft flying side-by-side through gaps in trees, over hills and valleys, skimming waves and always watching our darbar to make sure we were clear. In essence, it was a 'thrill of the chase' feeling. Would we be intercepted? Would we happen upon an unsuspecting bomber returning from a long sortie, leading to a massive defense force waiting for us? It was always a gamble. From the 'pop' that lead us to break dar cover to get ords on town, the frantic slaughter of every single town building (the requirement in those days) while maintaining radio with our field CAP, to strafing the vehicles that made it out who might get our troops.
It was wild, and even in a virtual game, the experience was real enough to leave me wanting more and more.
These days, I personally believe that there are simply too few players, both in number and mindset. Krusty's opinion I find not only terribly incorrect, but plain ignorant.
Oh, brother....
I guarantee you 100% the only reason hordes went NOE was to steamroll a surprised target and they produced NO "action" at all.
They would find the most ignored field to attack, find the quietest front, and hide the entire time.
Even after steamrolling a field and capturing it in seconds,
they were timid sheep and avoided all contact with the enemy.
It's not the game settings, it's the quality of character of the people doing it.
Yes, as an NOE raider we would find the quiet fields as targets. Why? It's like throwing a surprise party for the other side.
Hiding the entire time? Sure, we remained hidden. Why give them the chance to spawn 20 wirbelwinds and 25 fighters when we were only coming in with 15 attack aircraft? We didn't want their kills to be easy. Did this produce "no action at all"? Certainly not. It was action from takeoff to landing for us. Did it lead to a giant furball of "action" for you? Occasionally, yes, but not all the time. As far as "avoiding all contact with the enemy" goes, this one 'dings' my Krusty-meter. We loved contact with the enemy. We loved strafing ground vehicles, we loved when a handful of fighters were waiting for us, and we loved coming out on top, regardless of whose favor the odds were stacked against (ours, or theirs).
To say that it was the quality of character of people doing it, is simply shameful and in my opinion, a filthy thing to say. It's statements like that which make me lose all respect for an opinion that has been made. This is a game, and just because a group of players doesn't play the way you want them to, doesn't mean they don't have high-quality character in some way, shape, or form. It's blatantly disrespectful.
I will agree that certain groups did lack many basic qualities, particular the =v= group, but they weren't ever a NOE horde type. We had fun shooting them down, and they had fun being shot down, as far as I'm concerned.
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I miss the vDudes. They were fun to kill....(alt/NOE) horde or no (alt/NOE) horde. And their "crappy HO attempt / run like :devil" ACM tactics were so cute! :D
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I do miss the "9 pound hammer" NOE mission...especially the "alamo" missions deep into enemy territory. Pure brute force taking a base.
Would be nice to see some of those missions again.
PS - I once flew a goon 5 sectors to take a base only to find I dropped vehicle supplies...Just the comedy that ensued was worth it.
:aok Yes, these deep incursions sometimes created an awesome struggle for a considerable amount of time.
I can remember many times that some guy had "while eating dinner" would fly a goon half way across the map and land just outside radar range of a base, then get a few squadies or volunteers to fly NOE all the way to give a try at a capture. These type of captures never included more than 4-5 folks. It was funny when it succeeded, which was quite often. I use to "when on the map" would just watch the map for a few minutes to see if dar would pop periodically. If it did it was usually cause someone in a long NOE mission got bored and started barrel rolling or something silly like that, exposing the area the NOE was in. Up I would go to be the SPOILER :devil Fun stuff!
Sometimes the NOE was a horde but I would say most of the time it was just a squad or a hand full of bored guys looking for something different to do!
The radar and dar changes did nothing but rob small #s of players from "risking" a little to "gain" a base.!
Sad
JUGgler
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Thanks JUGgler you got to the heart of it.
Much of the action was many small groups of friends across the map. But, because they had some way to hide their activity they felt emboldened to take the risk. Not everyone wants to up into the wall of red and lay their bits on the line. Same goes in any other multi player game with combat and risk. The 80% won't stay around if they don't have an avenue to avoid the Uber Killers and enjoy the game at their own level. If they can find that, then they will accept the risk of being found out and defended against.
Then they just play WhackAmole and try for another base. But, they are staying with the game and creating activity. Just not stupidly feeding themselves to the lazy arrogant 20% who don't want to fly more than a single sector to club their easy mode baby seals. Being skilled at ACM and a member of the 20% does not mean you are brighter than the 80% who accept they don't have your skills but, can avoid you while taking your bases away from you. I've spent over a decade listening to the 20% howl in a whiny rage over the sneaky 80% taking away all of their fields instead of saddling up like men and meeting them face to face and dying like good little tards. I've also listened to the occasional voice over those years warn them that if they succeeded in getting the game changed to force everyone out in the open to fight like hmmm "men??". They would watch a decline in numbers.
I flew the C47 six sectors NOE once for one of Grizz's deep base takes and popped up from NOE right in the middle of the last tiny group of friendlies holding off the red defense hoard. My troops got in because no one expected an enemy C47 to suddenly popup out of nowhere. The rest of the night was a Ft. Apache fun ride kill fest for our side because we had a field deep inside of the enemy lines. It only worked because of the old radar minimums. And because of them we generated an incredible night of fun for both sides in the fight. The game had a lot more of that before radar was changed to suit the 20%.
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You guys know that there is a documentary on why there are no more NOE raids, right?
It is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE17BAfekuQ
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Freebirds did one near rook strats last night.
Had they waited until my imminent death while deacking the field, they would have had a better time of driving tanks to the strats.
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On the water maps they are still pretty popular. Getting un-skilled players to follow terrain is pretty tough add that into the "spiez" blowing missions most don't bother anyone. On the maps with a lot a shore line bases you will see many NOE's.
Yes they are boring because nobody puts any effort into running "good" missions any more. Maybe with the lack of skill it's more like herding cats than it is running a mission. Good missions involve more than "everyone grab your hvy plane of choice, first four guys in hit the FH's, next two hit the VH and everyone else hit the town." Good missions need things to capture the interest of players be it historical, or something that may be a bit out there, but just might work.
Today's players are too tied up in the "end game" be it grab a base or win the war. Eventually they either quit (most of them it seems) or they advance and figure out the "journey" to that end game is far more satisfying. Fighting the battles is more important than whether you win or lose it ... tho I prefer to win :P Running good missions takes a lot of time in the planning and keeping a reign on the cats you have along. Mugz, Taz, Ripsnort, and a few other use to the "go to guys" when ever they logged on it was "Make a mission!" and they rarely got any peace until they did.
:headscratch: Guess you haven't flown in any of my missions!
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I don't want it reverted, but I think 100-dot and 800-sector would be a nice experiment.
NOEs aren't extinct, but we've gone from 50 a night to 5 in the LWMAs. And when was the last time these recent NOEs wasn't run over the glass oceans?... NOEs just don't get run anymore over land. (and this really ticks me off - HiTech said the reason for the chagne was to promote more or a challenge involved with the missions - instead the change made them super rare and when they do happen still seem to only challenge the pilots skill at useing auto-pilot over the water. At least before we would see them attempted over land, and on non-flat maps without auto-pilot!)
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I don't want it reverted, but I think 100-dot and 800-sector would be a nice experiment.
NOEs aren't extinct, but we've gone from 50 a night to 5 in the LWMAs. And when was the last time these recent NOEs wasn't run over the glass oceans?... NOEs just don't get run anymore over land. (and this really ticks me off - HiTech said the reason for the chagne was to promote more or a challenge involved with the missions - instead the change made them super rare and when they do happen still seem to only challenge the pilots skill at useing auto-pilot over the water. At least before we would see them attempted over land, and on non-flat maps without auto-pilot!)
Hmm, well put radar and dar back where it was and disable auto pilot for any plane under 500' :devil
HAHA, imagine the whiiiiiiiiiines :rock
JUGgler
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You guys know that there is a documentary on why there are no more NOE raids, right?
It is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE17BAfekuQ
I usually don't finish those, but I was laughing out loud at this one.
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I usually don't finish those, but I was laughing out loud at this one.
The guy who made it is a master. It is truly a gem! :aok
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Flew 10 sectors noe over hilly terrain to drop HQ..........and RTB for safe landing.
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I think radar's detection altitude should get lower as the con get closer to the base. (Making up numbers here) So for example, radar ring max radius is 20 miles. At 20 miles, fly lower than 1K and you won't appear on radar. At 15 miles, you won't appear if under 500 ft. At 10 miles, you won't appear if under 250 ft. And at 5 miles, radar detects everything, even on the deck. That should give about 1-2 minute of prior warning to up for defenders.
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I miss those Grizz deep strike missions. The whole point of them was to take a base that was deep in enemy territory in order to spawn a great air to air fight, and it always worked IMO. In fact, some of the best furballs I can remember came out of those deep strike raids that were NOE.
I wouldn't mind seeing an adjustment to the radar alt detection limits to bring these types of things back, it would only bring back a good dimension of gameplay, and it sort of does something for everybody - the base takers like the long range low alt mission part of it, and the furballers like the ensuing furball that happens at the base once it's taken. Yep, the more I think about it, the more these types of missions kept me online and interested.
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You want to see some NOE flying? Come to FSO. :lol It never fails but when VF-17 is tasked with escorting bombers to a target the person in charge of them decides they should go NOE...and they usually meet with horrendous results. :bhead
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I miss those Grizz deep strike missions. The whole point of them was to take a base that was deep in enemy territory in order to spawn a great air to air fight, and it always worked IMO. In fact, some of the best furballs I can remember came out of those deep strike raids that were NOE.
I wouldn't mind seeing an adjustment to the radar alt detection limits to bring these types of things back, it would only bring back a good dimension of gameplay, and it sort of does something for everybody - the base takers like the long range low alt mission part of it, and the furballers like the ensuing furball that happens at the base once it's taken. Yep, the more I think about it, the more these types of missions kept me online and interested.
What you need to bring back first is a reason to defend. If no one defends you can go and take as many bases as you want deep in enemy territory. The opposition is only working to capture bases faster than you can. They have very little interest in "fighting" for a base.
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When NOE was adjusted for with RADAR to castrate it because "those who know better than others" complained along with demonizing NOE for being detrimental to the survival of our game. Now NOE is only for retarded weanie noob cowards who dare to up NOE missions. They got what They whined for. And the same unintended consequences we always get that are worse than what was whined to get rid of.
Nobody misses the tards who milkran isolated and undefended bases to boost their score. The only consequence of ending that was a better gameplay. /thread.
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Ran an Ar 234 NOE across land yesterday. It was sketchy as hell, and I almost lost my bomber several times, but it's possible if you plan your route, and go around hills instead of over then.
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Nobody misses the tards who milkran isolated and undefended bases to boost their score. The only consequence of ending that was a better gameplay. /thread.
K.
:rolleyes:
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You guys know that there is a documentary on why there are no more NOE raids, right?
It is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE17BAfekuQ
Omg that was friggin hilarious. So true though.. so true.
Tinkles
<<S>>
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Omg that was friggin hilarious. So true though.. so true.
Tinkles
<<S>>
"They'll club our goons like newborn baby seals! Especially that bloody bastard Grizz."
"Everyone log into the forum. I'm going to make a whine thread and I need your support."
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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What you need to bring back first is a reason to defend.
Maybe. I don't know, I don't even think about the strat game, and honestly I have no clue how any of it works. I just fly to fight a2a, and that's what I like, maybe somebody who knows more and cares more will have a better suggestion regarding strat/game etc. My point is that when you could easily take a deep base with an NOE raid, something that is very VERY hard now, it instantly started great air to air furballs once that base was quickly taken - players would spawn from the surrounding bases just to fly towards the action, and as I said, I remember the best, and longest furballs that I've taken part in since 1999 occurred just after a deep base was taken, and AT that base, or the airspace surrounding it.
Good times.
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gameplay fashions come and go... Miss NOE's, then do one... simple as that.
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What you need to bring back first is a reason to defend. If no one defends you can go and take as many bases as you want deep in enemy territory. The opposition is only working to capture bases faster than you can. They have very little interest in "fighting" for a base.
Sadly today what we do much of is endlessly defend. With the old radar minimums at least everyone was out attacking something. And we had a lot more newbies with something to do and look forward to during the long 2 or 3 years it takes to get close to being one of this game's 20%. Most of this forum community are members of the LWMA 20% and suffer from arguing for game changes that reflect their eventual boredom. Which ends up making the game that much harder and oppressive against newbies wanting to stick around.
The old NOE minimums used to act as an equalizer for the newbies who could run off somewhere and accomplish something on their own building up some confidence and experience in the game. Otherwise we have a game that hates newbies and a bunch of old bored vets willing to make them never want to play the game again just to get that one last kill to feed their MA ADHD addiction.
We treat newbies the same as we treat all problems like them in the real world. We don't really want to be bothered by them and their stumbling. We tell them to join the institutions in place to babysit newbies to get them out of our hair. Otherwise we slaughter them and treat them like dirt. The vTards were the pinnacle of a group of newbies doing their own thing and having a reasonable success at it after Dogfite organized them into their own little self protection hoard.
That was one group of newbies happy to stick around in the game for a few years. And for them at least, their strategy worked up to the point of the community renaming them the "vTards" for it and whining in this forum "ad nauseam" about hoards and NOE and undefended bases. But, they generated action if you learned how to read the map when they were logged in. Then there is that old veteran players whine that they don't want to spend their time reading the map. They just want everyone to feed themselves to them by showing themselves on dar. Our now endless cycle of aimless field defense. Because if everyone can see you, what's the point of trying to take anything?
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Our now endless cycle of aimless field defense. Because if everyone can see you, what's the point of trying to take anything?
The point of radar is to facilitate combat, which is the main object of the game. Base taking is a stage set for combat, not the purpose of the game. Who wants to spend all day looking for a fight that may or may not materialize? Furthermore, sneaking around is avoiding combat. Noobs won't learn how to fight if the only enemy they face are auto-acks.
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NOEs added an aspect of unpredictability to the game. That being said, when the numbers were thin, NOE missions were utilized as a means of conflict avoidance. As pointed out before, that is not in the interest of the 'noobs' improving nor in the interest in the game as overall, as the game is predicated on conflict.
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Nobody misses the tards who milkran isolated and undefended bases to boost their score. The only consequence of ending that was a better gameplay. /thread.
That was ended?
Weren't you here last month for that Fester fiasco?
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The 20% will always argue for their personal interests over that of the 80% they want to feed on. By advocating for them to pay some idiotic notion of retroactive dues owed to themselves for perceived past indignities during their own newbie horror story.
There is no reason for this game to kill it's future for the bored egos of it's 20%.
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Bustr, we understand you have issues with flying NOE; keeping your plane up, if you will. But don't project your own... inadequacies... on to other players. Most of them have the stamina and skill to go for hours!!
But Bustr... it's not your fault man. It's not your fault. Just because you can't keep it up of the ground doesn't make you any less of a man. And the wonderful thing is that you don't HAVE to just live with it! Oh sure, you won't be able to keep up with the younger guys, but then nobody of your vintage can.
Part of your problems might be due to high manifold pressure. It increases your speed, making it harder for you to keep it up. Stress can also affect your performance. If you stop worrying about the 20% that can and probably will hand your arse to you, it will help.
But Bustr, the most important thing is that you know nobody sees you as any less of a man, just because of your... problems.
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Tank-Ace you have done better in the past than use satire to project your fear of inadequacy while performing in front of children.
The game swings back and forth over time into stagnating states, occasionally with Hitech poking his finger into the mess and stirring it up. Now it's big static furballs in the air and camps on the ground, with the strats adjusted and beckoning seductively to the bomber 20%. We humm along in stalled fronts doing nothing, with semi hourly trickles of bombers to the strats, and once in awhile giant bomber missions somewhere that seem mostly to be tune ups for a squad's next FSO.
Lacking from that to inject uncertainty into the game for the 20% are the NOE. Because effectively now NOE is not a tactic for the unskilled 80% as they once were to just take off and start doing something "fun". So now the 80% has to suffer the 20% with very few outlets to entertain themselves without it costing them constant arse whuppins and personal inspections of the new curtains in the towers ad nauseam. Whine loud and long enough in this game and you get what you think is the next great AH utopia with all of it's unintended consequences.
When things are good for the 20% they don't think about the future. Just the next easy arse to whup because the game forces the 80% to feed themselves to the 20% who don't have to do anything but sit still and wait for the next meal. When the old NOE standards were in place, the 80% made the 20% who didn't join them in the NOE have to actually hunt for their dinner. Back then the big maps and their funnels at fronts made sense forcing the hoards to move in predictable routes to counter their size and invisibility under dar. Today sans the more generous NOE minumums, we just stall out along those funnels and have giant aimless furballs because we don't have to guess where attacks are coming from. Trinity painfully demonstrated this.
Many of the 20% in this forum will always defend the ability in game to perform feats that a 20% should be able to as normal for all levels below them. And naturally projecting that the 80% are just whiners and sour grapes because they stink at those easy for them skills. Rather than consider the game from the 80% perspective and the long term. That would be equal to a programmer for this game saying anyone can program games because that programmer happens to have that skillset fully matured at this moment and is his normative reality.
A common theme that comes out of self assessment studies of skill sets, is the subject is unaware of how complex the skillset is because once learned and proficient. They assume it is as simple for others as themselves. You cannot force the 80% to live in the TA for up to three years. NOE visa the old radar minimums gave the 80% a shallow end of the pool to get started in before swimming with the lazy sharks.
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You asked for a litteral slapping tank ace, you got one.
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You asked for a litteral slapping tank ace, you got one.
:aok
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I got no slap, Bab, all I see is Bustr building up his strawman.
The reality of things are that NOE over land is difficult for anyone now. However, it's not impossible. If people fail to take the time to plan their route, not only will they fail, but they deserve to.
It's not something you need years to learn. It literally requires knowing how to read the maps, and the radar altitudes. That takes minutes. Add a few weeks to be able to keep your plane steady, and you can fly NOE to most places, even if not everywhere.
The only valid point Bustr has its that it's now impractical to fly HORDES noe, which is inarguably a good thing. I don't know if Bustr truly believes the image he is portraying, or if he is bending history for his own purpose. Either way, he is wrong on the hordes; it was a crappy time for 66% of the players, those being on the receiving end of the country that happened to be hording at the moment.
And besides that, his notion that hordes are necessary for noobs to have fun is patently untrue. Yesterday, I ran a string of missions, and we rolled 6 bases. All of them had noobs (that I helped to be useful), and ended up drawing most of the rooks. Any noobs could have jumped in, and been part of organized action, had fun, and learn something.
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Flew 10 sectors noe over hilly terrain to drop HQ..........and RTB for safe landing.
Did you enter a shallow dive to chase it down over several sectors? :cool:
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I went NOE for the first time in probably a year or more. Ran smack dab straight into a cv. Didn't go well.
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Did you enter a shallow dive to chase it down over several sectors? :cool:
You couldn't fly noe for 5 sectors over hilly terrain, take down HQ, and fly noe 5 more sectors to RTB without crashing or popping a dar bar.
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But you can?
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Yes......at least 5 times per tour......sometimes 10.
If you count all of the attempts where I downed HQ but got shot down on the way home, double the figures above.
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I'm assuming you avoid radar, and fly fairly slow. Darbar alt, I could see. But if your saying you fly full speed with a set of bombers below 65 ft over land for 5 sectors, I call BS.
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It's below 200 feet unless I pass through a dar ring....then it's below 60 feet and flying between groups of trees since only the center plane of a formation generates a dar bar or dot.
I pop up and climb to about 2800 feet over the HQ which usually puts me near 210mph which I maintain for the final calibration before the drop.
I've downed all 3 country hq while surviving to land back at base during a single day on the compello map.
I used to only salvo 13 to drop the hq so I could come back to kill M3s resupplying the HQ on that map.
Next time you're on and I announce downing a HQ, send me an attachment as gunner request and I will gladly fly so you can kill c47s resupplying hq with the front gun.
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I wish I had the time you did. :lol
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Ok, much more reasonable. I'd gladly take you up on that, what country do you typically fly for?
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NOE will set you free.
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Ok, much more reasonable. I'd gladly take you up on that, what country do you typically fly for?
he's a dirty rook :old:
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NOE all for me!
Hunting NOE's was always a blast... sometimes I was the bug....well usually I was the bug... but it was still fun.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/AZC4guy/alltomyself.png) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/AZC4guy/media/alltomyself.png.html)
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You couldn't fly noe for 5 sectors over hilly terrain, take down HQ, and fly noe 5 more sectors to RTB without crashing or popping a dar bar.
lol You have no idea what im capable of, been there got the tee shirt that's says Knightlandia Electric co "We turn out the lights" I like to let em know IM coming tho I need to practice bomber guns.