Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: The Fugitive on January 02, 2011, 11:36:54 AM
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I know this thread may get stupid, but I'm hoping to have a good discussion about "why" people feel the need to run in a horde.
Last night it was the Bishs turn to run the horde....do we draw numbers or short sticks for this honor? There was one GV battle going on in the hills, Knights were pushed back through the south and were trying to recapture a base from the bish. In the north the Bish horde was going from base to base taking bases back methodically one every 20-30 minutes. As a Rook I could do the GV battle (which I did for a bit getting killed 5 times to every kill :rolleyes: ) or dive into the Bish/Knight battles going on just outside of the valley south of A1 (which I did and got HOed and ganged by BOTH teams.... are Rooks such a nemesis that the Knights and Bish team up to chase a lone Rook?) or defend against the mighty horde in the north?
Looking at the roster there were 4 Bish squads with close to 10 players each on. All working together creating a horde of 30-50 players (Adding some for those that while not in one of these squads joined the mission due to the horde). I understand capturing bases is fun, I understand working together is fun AND rewarding. What I don't understand is what is fun about using an overwhelming force to do these things. How can it be fun for the second half of the group to get to the field/target they are attacking only to find nobody is upping any more, the town is down, the flag is white, and the first group of guys in are screaming "Don't damage the base! We will need to up from here!". Why are the second 20+ people still tagging along?
I know the Bish or any horde for that matter are not out to impress anyone, or are they? Isn't one of the reasons you team up and run a mission to succeed? Isn't it to give each other that "Atta Boy!". Isn't it to "spit" in the "enemies" face and say "Take that!". Well to me, doing it with a horde is no big deal, it doesn't deserve an "Atta Boy". With the towns as they are now 3 guys can capture a base if nobody defends. 50 really should have much of a problem right?
Hordes are a product of the mission planners. LCA, Bops, even the multi squad groups teaming up have a "mission planner". If the MP has 50 guys all going to one base he has created a horde, not a mission. After all we already know 50 guys are going to pretty much "own" any thing they try to do, why call it a mission? It's up to the MP's to do away with the hordes. They have the ability to plan the missions, so plan them! Last night the Bish had the horde, instead of taking 1 base ever 20-30 minutes how about try taking 3 at the same time? Over all you would capture more bases in the same amount of time there by increasing the "fun" your squad/group is having. Squad night runs 2 hours, if 4 captures are good, 10-12 would be better. AND having "earned" them would make it that much sweeter wouldn't you think?
The arenas were split do to it becoming "a cess pool". I think, that one of those things that created the poor environment was the hordes. Last night a newbie might have been a rook and looking for a fun place to play and couldn't find it due to the hordes, heck some of us old times couldn't find a fun fight and left. If the arenas start turning away the subscribers again HTC WILL fix it. As we know their "fixes" (remember the radar change) aren't always fun :D Maybe it's asking too much for these groups to come up with a battle plan and try to execute WITHOUT having to rely on overwhelming numbers. I think it would be more fun if you have to "earn" the capture. I know I'd join more missions if there was going to be a fight involved. Now it's a waste of time unless you happen to be in the forfront of the group. Why wouldn't you want to have MORE fun?
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A horde is usualy the result of a small furball growing. People log in and flock to the biggest dar-bar to find a fight. Often one side gets more players than another as the hours go by. The less populated side starts to get fed up with being outnumbered and their players leave the fight. This off-sets the fight even further untill finally there is a horde on one side pushing in to vulch the enemy base.
It's most often not that people want to horde. It's just like electricity following the path of least resistance. The easier fight attracts more players and the harder fight discourages the other team. Hordes are most often a natural result of a brawl that has no rules or organisation. Most of the hordes have nothing to do with base capture and everything to do with individuals looking to join the biggest fight.
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Fugi, they still believe quantity is better than quality. I gave up long ago trying to convince some to become more creative.
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When folks realise that all three teams, HO, Pick, Alt-monkey, horde, camp, gang with equal crapitudes, this board will wither and die like daffodil in the microwave. Until then we'll have these threads.
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lwblue last night got to see quite the rook horde going at it. I agree with Fugitive how in the world is it any fun to come in and fly over a field with nobody upping and do nothing but wait for troops? Better yet is the clown on 200 running his mouth about how great they are for doing what they are doing.
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lwblue last night got to see quite the rook horde going at it. I agree with Fugitive how in the world is it any fun to come in and fly over a field with nobody upping and do nothing but wait for troops? Better yet is the clown on 200 running his mouth about how great they are for doing what they are doing.
Thought you quit?
Your 2 weeks isnt up yet.
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This is where the obligatory whorder will state that 'you should up and defend against us' I believe the answer can be found in another thread
Broken..I feel your pain. What has helped me lately is to stay in highly populated areas as to avoid alot of 1-1 or 1-2 contacts which i will lose 99% of the time. You can work on things a bit better when you are not the focus and have some fun at the same time. As you get more confidence you can escalate your encounters.
the poster is a new guy, but the vast majority of folks who follow that mentality aren't. The edge of the radar ring on their base is like the rope holding back the bulldog on the old bugs bunny cartoons--when not whording, they orbit high over their base, always turning back and climbing when nearing the edge, so as to be certain to NEVER be in a position that might put them at risk. When they get tired of that, they land their picks, gets congrats, and join another whord mission. This is why I HATE large maps. Small maps force the whords from each side to interact, whether they want to or not. I bet Lusche could come up with a table that would should the perfect ratio of sector to online players :aok
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Thought you quit?
Your 2 weeks isnt up yet.
lol i did quit but im such a loser and have no life that i unquit
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I don't know Fugi ...
I remember when the MAW would combine forces with the FreeBirds and/or USMC and when that group was on the move, there were upwards of 60-80 flying strong. The only difference between then and now, was the fact that when this horde mobilized, they was a counteracting group of squads the would meet you head on ... like the Arabian Knights or the Cactus Air Force. Back then each country had a core set of squads that were the protectors of the country and were always there to meet the enemy head on ... and not avoid them and horde a different part of the map.
If the MAW was not running organized ops and the call came over country channel that the AKs were attacking a base ... we dropped everything and upped like mad bees to try and beat them back. Repelling them, at times, was just as satisfying as taking a base. And conversely, when the MAW was hitting a base, you could bet the ranch that the AKs were going to up and fight like cornered badgers.
That is what is missing in the game IMHO ... countries don't see to have the "core" set of squads that are the "protectors".
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No, but there IS a "core" set of squads which will look at that situation, and bravely go to the far end of the map and whorde some OTHER undefended area---one other variable exists now which didn't before: The whorde can take 10-20 bases...and it REALLY doesn't mean very much, in the overall scheme of things, so there's no sense of importance attached to the defense
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A horde is usualy the result of a small furball growing. People log in and flock to the biggest dar-bar to find a fight. Often one side gets more players than another as the hours go by. The less populated side starts to get fed up with being outnumbered and their players leave the fight. This off-sets the fight even further untill finally there is a horde on one side pushing in to vulch the enemy base.
It's most often not that people want to horde. It's just like electricity following the path of least resistance. The easier fight attracts more players and the harder fight discourages the other team. Hordes are most often a natural result of a brawl that has no rules or organisation. Most of the hordes have nothing to do with base capture and everything to do with individuals looking to join the biggest fight.
I can see this, but more often than not if you check out the guys you find in these hordes most couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I think it's more along the line of the lemmings than it is furballers looking for a furball. Again I think it's up to the MPs and "leaders" of these squads to lead. If they are just the first lemming in the line, they are not leading.
When folks realise that all three teams, HO, Pick, Alt-monkey, horde, camp, gang with equal crapitudes, this board will wither and die like daffodil in the microwave. Until then we'll have these threads.
Had you read and comprehended what I typed you would have notice that I did point out ALL the teams doing this. It is a universal sickness. Just because ALL teams do it, doesn't make it right.
This is where the obligatory whorder will state that 'you should up and defend against us' I believe the answer can be found in another thread the poster is a new guy, but the vast majority of folks who follow that mentality aren't. The edge of the radar ring on their base is like the rope holding back the bulldog on the old bugs bunny cartoons--when not whording, they orbit high over their base, always turning back and climbing when nearing the edge, so as to be certain to NEVER be in a position that might put them at risk. When they get tired of that, they land their picks, gets congrats, and join another whord mission. This is why I HATE large maps. Small maps force the whords from each side to interact, whether they want to or not. I bet Lusche could come up with a table that would should the perfect ratio of sector to online players :aok
Ya that was one of the first things posted after I commented on 200 that "the horde won again". I dive into the hordes more often than not. All trips end the same with me getting shot down by 6 or 7 guys at once. So now either I'm an idiot for diving into an out number situation, or I'm a wuss for not defending my bases from the horde. I'm just a guy trying to have fun, and this situation really isn't all that much fun.
lol i did quit but im such a loser and have no life that i unquit
....and it was the only way he could figure out how to change his avatar :neener:
I don't know Fugi ...
I remember when the MAW would combine forces with the FreeBirds and/or USMC and when that group was on the move, there were upwards of 60-80 flying strong. The only difference between then and now, was the fact that when this horde mobilized, they was a counteracting group of squads the would meet you head on ... like the Arabian Knights or the Cactus Air Force. Back then each country had a core set of squads that were the protectors of the country and were always there to meet the enemy head on ... and not avoid them and horde a different part of the map.
If the MAW was not running organized ops and the call came over country channel that the AKs were attacking a base ... we dropped everything and upped like mad bees to try and beat them back. Repelling them, at times, was just as satisfying as taking a base. And conversely, when the MAW was hitting a base, you could bet the ranch that the AKs were going to up and fight like cornered badgers.
That is what is missing in the game IMHO ... countries don't see to have the "core" set of squads that are the "protectors".
You could add the 444th Air Mafia to that list as well. On the other hand all of those squads named were guys that fought. The fought to keep bases, as well as fought to take bases. I remember many a night going head to head with the MAW in AW. It was always fun to have a bunch of MAWs on my kill list! Maybe todays players are not into fighting, but just into running up base counts.
The game has a large learning curve which doesn't suit todays type of players who are use to "point and click" type games/combat. Who reads a manual to play WoW? Nobody, but to get off on the right foot in this game it could take a week to read up on the ins and outs. So we have a bunch of players whos skills are "questionable" with a large lack of confidence grouping together to hide their lack of skill..... safety in numbers.
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The arenas were split do to it becoming "a cess pool". I think, that one of those things that created the poor environment was the hordes.
Well then. Apparently arena caps have been spectacularly successful in solving that problem, and well worth the annoyance they cause. :rolleyes:
Perhaps we need MORE arena caps. Maybe arena's should be capped at 2 players each. If you go 3 players, well then you will get 2 on 1 and that's going to seem like a horde to the odd man out. ;)
:rofl,
Wab
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Hordes feed the BEAST, when the horde is upon us the 2-3 kills I get compaired to the 200 I lose are well worth it. Even if it is only 2-3 hording vulchtards I send to the tower at least one ends in a whiiine. Then I just bask in the glowing warmth that I may have disrupted somebodys "fighter" score :aok :aok
JUGgler
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lwblue last night got to see quite the rook horde going at it. I agree with Fugitive how in the world is it any fun to come in and fly over a field with nobody upping and do nothing but wait for troops? Better yet is the clown on 200 running his mouth about how great they are for doing what they are doing.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/skydiver22/ahss52.jpg)
about 10 more planes not pictured.
Everybody does this. Rooks, Bish and Knits!!
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A horde is usualy the result of a small furball growing. People log in and flock to the biggest dar-bar to find a fight. Often one side gets more players than another as the hours go by. The less populated side starts to get fed up with being outnumbered and their players leave the fight. This off-sets the fight even further untill finally there is a horde on one side pushing in to vulch the enemy base.
It's most often not that people want to horde. It's just like electricity following the path of least resistance. The easier fight attracts more players and the harder fight discourages the other team. Hordes are most often a natural result of a brawl that has no rules or organisation. Most of the hordes have nothing to do with base capture and everything to do with individuals looking to join the biggest fight.
This.
I would also like to add, and what Fugi is probably getting that, is the small population of people that will only up when the odds become stacked in their favor as the fight shifts their way in the way you described it. Also, it is probably the same players that are the first to leave the fight when it becomes slightly stacked against them too.
The reason is pretty simple though, they want to experience success. They may be new or not very skilled, and they want a reasonable chance to kill a couple bad guys and go land em. We all probably did the same thing when we were new.
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Most of the hordes have nothing to do with base capture and everything to do with individuals looking to join the biggest fight.
If there's a HUGE green blob over an nmy base, and little to no red....they're not joining watermelon but a vulchfest, and they've made a conscious decision to do that, over other areas on the map where actual human-on-human interaction in the skies might result
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(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/skydiver22/ahss52.jpg)
about 10 more planes not pictured.
Everybody does this. Rooks, Bish and Knits!!
need more troops? LOL what is that 4 goons in one picture?
I like the carpet of lanc bombs that didn't hit a thing.. :rofl
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We all probably did the same thing when we were new.
In my first few weeks (started as a Bish by the way, who at that time were having numbers the big way) , I wasn't even aware that I was hording. After that I didn't mind being part of the horde, because I didn't have the skills yet to survive in a severely disadvantaged numerical situation. And I guess most player are like me: I don't really mind getting killed, but having more deaths than kills is simply no fun for me. Also I wanted to help my country, which in most cases meant capping the base so that the goons can come in.
Only when I became better I started to leave the green cloud more and more. Not for any honor or balance reasons, but just for the fact that I was limiting my kill opportunities. Too few targets & too little competition. Then I became mainly a defender, and that means looking for the NOE or the biggest red dar you can find most of the time. (Which doesn't mean I'm never a part of a vulching horde over your field anymore ;))
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Thought you quit?
Your 2 weeks isnt up yet.
lol was just thinking the exact same thing
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Hordes the other Pink Meat :aok
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A horde isn't a horde....It's a MISSION. They flew missions in WW2 if im not mistaken. 1 person can't take a base. I often ask people if anyone wants to take a base with me, It's possible to take one with only 5-6 people. But anyways, I asked and sometimes get about 20-25 people. So it's not a horde to be mean, It's a tactic to take a base, sometimes by accident :P
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I can see this, but more often than not if you check out the guys you find in these hordes most couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I think it's more along the line of the lemmings than it is furballers looking for a furball. Again I think it's up to the MPs and "leaders" of these squads to lead. If they are just the first lemming in the line, they are not leading.
I totaly agree with your leadership ethics there.
But I don't think I agree with the first part about paper bags or lemmings. A natural horde* will almost always have players of all skill levels in it.
The bit I think I fail to see the relevance of the most is the fact that the players skill level depicts what they are allowed to do in the game.
Furballing (or indeed, any aspect of the game) is for everyone. There is no skill requirement or fighting style requirement to be allowed to furball. Not being able to fight out of a wet paper bag is no reason to do anything but fly the game how you like. So I fail to see what you expect the 'skilless' to do about the horde issue. Leadership is a far better way of dictating how the MA gameplay works. I like your point there.
*natural horde - a horde that forms without someone posting a mission for base capture.
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The reason we have hordes like that is that a large portion of the AH player base would actually like to fly in a group and have some goals. Do I think that the horde attracts newbies and players with less experience? Yes, of course it does - and I don't think that is a bad thing. Online games are about INTERACTION - if people want to fly in an endless air-spawning instant furball, they might as well go get a playstation. The more friends you make, the more squads you fly missions with, the more likely it is that you might actually stay around beyond two weeks.
The horde now seems to meander about randomly. Why? Perhaps because the maps have NO strategic points that need to be guarded / actually mean anything. In the past, when you had maps with strategic zone bases, I thought that the action picked up quite nicely as you got near to taking one.
The solution to what to do vs a horde is the same as it ever was - just pork the troops at all the bases they can use to support their advance. It doesn't take a lot of guys to do it, and it takes guys away from the horde if they have to continually resupply.
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Before I get into the substance of the OP, let me add that all three sides horde/gang/pick/vulch. We are all 3 equally guilty.
Fugi... I completely and totally agree with your assessment. I also wish there was a way to correct the matter, but it is not a matter of the game. As you hinted in the post, it is a matter of mentality. The problem with that is.. it is not easy to change a group mentality. The process of "Groupthink" unfortunately causes a group of people to do and act in a way that they may not otherwise (readers digest version). Couple that with the anonymity of the internet and ... viola hordes, poor sportsmanship, and bad game play.
I wish I had the answer, because, I used to love playing the game (of course if I had a cure for "groupthink" I would be making a heck of a lot more money than I am now AND I would be on FoxNews promoting my many published books :D ). The game is steadily growing to be more frustrating than entertaining. Due to the excess hordes, I have found myself very often looking only for good defense opportunities rather than flying to the nmy base hoping to get a vulch without killshooting myself.
To make matters worse, I become the 'victim' of the horde as one of the few defenders -- I can live with that -- but when I am upping and manage to avoid the vulch, these same hordes, have the idiots who now have the NUMERICAL advantage, ALTITUDE advantage, INITIATIVE to choose when to engage, SPEED/ENERGY advantage, and how do they use these advantages? They turn the 110s directly at you begin spraying cannon lead at anything moving.
In adding to Fugi's poser, please explain to me HOW -- when holding all the advantages - it is fun or enhancing gameplay to up a 6 cannon bird and HO everything in site? I can live with getting killed. (I admit, like Lusche, I like to have more kills than deaths, but so be it.) But why is it fun to joust with a 110? What point does that prove? It has become such 'normal' game play, that when called out on this HO, the players have their standard "it take two to HO" or "if you don't like it, don't up" responses. Even skilled players are quick to throw out these excuses for lame play?
I am convinced this is relevant to Fugi's original question, in that the HORDES have become so overwhelming that guys are in such a hurry to get a kill before the other 30 (bish/knit/rook) dive in and get it, they are turning straight in and forcing a HO engagement. They are so afraid of losing the kill to someone else, or losing the fight, that they refuse to ACTUALLY engage a fight. They have to rush the HO just to HOPE for a kill. IT IS WEAK, AND IT IS DESTROYING THE FUN OF THE GAME. :frown:
I wish I had the answer to solve these problems, but I don't. There has to be a mentality change in the way PLAYERS react. I don't think this is something that HTC can correct for us. It must come from within ourselves -- the problem is getting 4000+ people to agree on anything is impossible. :(
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In adding to Fugi's poser, please explain to me HOW -- when holding all the advantages - it is fun or enhancing gameplay to up a 6 cannon bird and HO everything in site?
Easy, it's their $15 bucks and they enjoy doing it. Their enjoyment enhances their gameplay.
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The horde now seems to meander about randomly. Why? Perhaps because the maps have NO strategic points that need to be guarded / actually mean anything. In the past, when you had maps with strategic zone bases, I thought that the action picked up quite nicely as you got near to taking one.
The solution to what to do vs a horde is the same as it ever was - just pork the troops at all the bases they can use to support their advance. It doesn't take a lot of guys to do it, and it takes guys away from the horde if they have to continually resupply.
Eagle... while I do not disagree with much of what you said, I do disagree that simply porking troops will solve the problem. It will reduce the horde from rolling bases, but the horde and the horde mentality still remain. Many times (admittedly NOT ALL) the horde is NOT trying to capture. They just horde over an enemy base looking to get as many vulch-picks as their bird has ammo and then fly home for atta-boys (like there is some awarded skill for shooting planes on the runway).
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It's the weekend.
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Easy, it's their $15 bucks and they enjoy doing it. Their enjoyment enhances their gameplay.
So you are saying that jousting with the 110 is acceptable game play? Forget all the ACM. Everyone should just up the strongest cannons they can find and fly straight at each other? :headscratch:
My response.... how much more fun would they have if they DIDN'T HO the first pass, use a few turns or even choose a proper engagement and shoot the person in the back - like good gentlemen! :D
<salute>
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So you are saying that jousting with the 110 is acceptable game play? Forget all the ACM. Everyone should just up the strongest cannons they can find and fly straight at each other? :headscratch:
My response.... how much more fun would they have if they DIDN'T HO the first pass, use a few turns or even choose a proper engagement and shoot the person in the back - like good gentlemen! :D
<salute>
I'm saying obviously it must be fun for them otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
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Looks like those troops are over the airfield. It's not a base take, someone hung a disco ball in the tower. All the drunks jumped out to go dance. :noid
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So you are saying that jousting with the 110 is acceptable game play?
Yes it is. Absolutely.
Oh, it's not the high art of ACM, it may not be fine style, but it's far from being "not acceptable"
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Eagle... while I do not disagree with much of what you said, I do disagree that simply porking troops will solve the problem. It will reduce the horde from rolling bases, but the horde and the horde mentality still remain. Many times (admittedly NOT ALL) the horde is NOT trying to capture. They just horde over an enemy base looking to get as many vulch-picks as their bird has ammo and then fly home for atta-boys (like there is some awarded skill for shooting planes on the runway).
True - we do see a lot of capping of airfields for the vulchfest. My solution for this has always been to up at the next field over and come in higher than the vulching horde.
There is always a solution to the horde tactical problem - it just cannot be solved alone. 1 vs Horde = Death. 10 vs Horde = a helluva interesting fight. The solution to the horde is to get some guys together and go fight it.
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Hordes feed the BEAST, when the horde is upon us the 2-3 kills I get compaired to the 200 I lose are well worth it. Even if it is only 2-3 hording vulchtards I send to the tower at least one ends in a whiiine. Then I just bask in the glowing warmth that I may have disrupted somebodys "fighter" score :aok :aok
JUGgler
This :aok
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A horde isn't a horde....It's a MISSION. They flew missions in WW2 if im not mistaken. 1 person can't take a base. I often ask people if anyone wants to take a base with me, It's possible to take one with only 5-6 people. But anyways, I asked and sometimes get about 20-25 people. So it's not a horde to be mean, It's a tactic to take a base, sometimes by accident :P
No a mission is a group with assigned duties to carry out. Telling everyone bomb the crap out of the base and town and then drop troops isn't a plan, nor a mission. Most likely half the guys will get there and seeing as everything has already had the crap blown out of it not be able to complete there mission.
So it up to you to NOT encourage the horde by pointing all of your volunteers at one target which you KNOW is over kill as you stated that you only NEED 5-6 to capture a base. So why not split your force and send 10 to capture a V base, and the other 15 to capture an airfield? You still have twice the numbers YOU believe you need. You have cut down a horde, you have created two fights, and more fun for both friend and foe alike.
I totaly agree with your leadership ethics there.
But I don't think I agree with the first part about paper bags or lemmings. A natural horde* will almost always have players of all skill levels in it.
The bit I think I fail to see the relevance of the most is the fact that the players skill level depicts what they are allowed to do in the game.
Furballing (or indeed, any aspect of the game) is for everyone. There is no skill requirement or fighting style requirement to be allowed to furball. Not being able to fight out of a wet paper bag is no reason to do anything but fly the game how you like. So I fail to see what you expect the 'skilless' to do about the horde issue. Leadership is a far better way of dictating how the MA gameplay works. I like your point there.
*natural horde - a horde that forms without someone posting a mission for base capture.
I agree with what your saying, a furball is a different animal all together tho. Furbals or to use your term natural hordes form away from bases, and sometimes get pushed back to one base of the other as the numbers dwindle on one side. They rarely have any damage done to the town as nobody, or very few even think about a capture.
No the hordes I'm talking about are those with the expressed purpose of doing nothing but capturing a base in the quickest and easiest way possible. The hordes that have 30-40 people circling the base at less than 5k, half of them heavy waiting for someone to drop the troops.
The reason we have hordes like that is that a large portion of the AH player base would actually like to fly in a group and have some goals. Do I think that the horde attracts newbies and players with less experience? Yes, of course it does - and I don't think that is a bad thing. Online games are about INTERACTION - if people want to fly in an endless air-spawning instant furball, they might as well go get a playstation. The more friends you make, the more squads you fly missions with, the more likely it is that you might actually stay around beyond two weeks.
The horde now seems to meander about randomly. Why? Perhaps because the maps have NO strategic points that need to be guarded / actually mean anything. In the past, when you had maps with strategic zone bases, I thought that the action picked up quite nicely as you got near to taking one.
The solution to what to do vs a horde is the same as it ever was - just pork the troops at all the bases they can use to support their advance. It doesn't take a lot of guys to do it, and it takes guys away from the horde if they have to continually resupply.
There is nothing wrong with flying as a group, the group on the other hand doesn't NEED to be 30-50 strong. Like Hitech said once people running in squads that by-pass the squad limit of 32 by having extra wings couldn't name everyone in the squad without reading them off a list. You can only make so many friends at a time. The same goes for these hordes, cut them in half, switch up the groups on each successive missions and everyone gets to fly with everyone.
Killing troops is like when they could pork fuel to 25% it just kills the fight, or moves it. I love seeing missions, why would any one want to stop them from happening? Missions are fun to defend against, and participate in. Like I said a mission has goals, purpose, and directives. A horde just steam rolls with the only direction "XX base is next"
I'm saying obviously it must be fun for them otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
Sure it was fun to finger paint, then someone taught me to use a brush, and guess what, now it's a LOT MORE fun!
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The horde now seems to meander about randomly. Why? Perhaps because the maps have NO strategic points that need to be guarded / actually mean anything. In the past, when you had maps with strategic zone bases, I thought that the action picked up quite nicely as you got near to taking one.
I miss the Zone Base fights and the Scattered Strats we had in 2008 :(
Getting your hands on a Zone base when there was equal numbers fighting over it was the best feeling ever. I remember once, on a day off from work i sat upping time after time trying to help get a cap over such a base, next thing i knew we finally got it and 3 or 4 hours had past. All I can say is the celebration of accomplishment was a nice ice cold beer and the biggest smile it'd hurt your face a little :D
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No the hordes I'm talking about are those with the expressed purpose of doing nothing but capturing a base in the quickest and easiest way possible. The hordes that have 30-40 people circling the base at less than 5k, half of them heavy waiting for someone to drop the troops.
Sounds like my idea of heaven though! Seriously :) I'd be straight in a well armed plane and heading there a few thousand feet higher than them or perhaps even rolling some vulch bait in the hopes of hoing someone while still rolling down the runway.
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Sounds like my idea of heaven though! Seriously :) I'd be straight in a well armed plane and heading there a few thousand feet higher than them or perhaps even rolling some vulch bait in the hopes of hoing someone while still rolling down the runway.
:devil well truely thats what I try to do. Unfortunately for me I need to stay on a target a bit longer as my aim is so poor, which burns my "E" a bit faster, and then there is always that one LA or pony circling around 10k over the other just looking to pick guys like me. Like I said, the flights always end the same with 6-7 guys killing me, just how many I got before they got me is the only difference. :D
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If this thread makes it past 4 pages....
:lol
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you know i thought it was kinda backwards, i always thought the knits and the rooks ganged up on the bishops. Kinda funny though, bishops hardly ever have a horde
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Simple answer to having more people defend against a horde.
Reward people for putting themselves in a disadvantage. I dont know what a coding nightmare it would be to get data when you come out of 2v1 or 3v1, but having a system that encourages people to put themselves in that situation will help.
I stopped trying to be the hero. 10 times out of 10, the horde is on the way if I get shot down, I wont give them free kills.
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Kinda funny though, bishops hardly ever have a horde
That was kinda funny, i always see Bish in a Horde
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you know i thought it was kinda backwards, i always thought the knits and the rooks ganged up on the bishops. Kinda funny though, bishops hardly ever have a horde
No matter which country you are, it's always them hording us, and as everybody knows, they do never fight each other
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Why the hordes?
Simple - Human nature.
You can try to change it (but your on a hiding to nothing).
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Kev! Hi sir!
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Kev has a point..It is human nature.Just get out on the highwyas and u will see it in action..You will see packs of cars driving together,and the one which is flying up to the next BUNCH on the highway..(these are the people who usually get the tickets)...So that out of the way..
OK lets say on the map last night,5-6 people go to take the base,now the base will have at LEAST that up if not MORE,dont deny it,it happens,see it all the time.so 8 people up against the 5-6,3 of the original get shot down who were in the missioon for the field,and that leaves 2-3,lest say 2 of the 8 got shot down,that leaves 6,so now the numbers are 6 defending,2-3 trying to capture..NOW!!!!!
iT GOES OUT ON COUNTRY THAT THE FLAG IS WHITE at so and so base,and well,you got u a FB and it is going to take more than the 5-6 original to take the field,...HAPPENS on EVERY SIDE fugi....Then what happens??? see above paragraph about human nature.
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There is always a solution to the horde tactical problem - it just cannot be solved alone. 1 vs Horde = Death. 10 vs Horde = a helluva interesting fight. The solution to the horde is to get some guys together and go fight it.
This is true except the ones who are the most vocal about NOE's and Hordes wont up to defend because it will affect the most important thing in the game to them. Their SCORE!
I will say that I see SHAWK on many occasions all alone defending bases against overwhelming numbers attacking. Last night the Bish were attacking A5 in off hours. It was one heck of a fight. Just before the base was taken by us. There was SHAWK all alone mixed up in a fight with 10+ enemy fighters. Talking crap on 200 the entire time.. I have to give him credit. Salute SHAWK by the way!
This was a well defended base with a Rook CV offshore as well... I will not mention names, but a few of the high score guys were defending at first, but when we started to get the upper hand, many of those guys seemed to vanish.. If they lose the advantage, they go away to something else.. Then rant on 200 about the Bish horde attacking their base.
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This is true except the ones who are the most vocal about NOE's and Hordes wont up to defend because it will affect the most important thing in the game to them. Their SCORE!
I will say that I see SHAWK on many occasions all alone defending bases against overwhelming numbers attacking. Last night the Bish were attacking A5 in off hours. It was one heck of a fight. Just before the base was taken by us. There was SHAWK all alone mixed up in a fight with 10+ enemy fighters. Talking crap on 200 the entire time.. I have to give him credit. Salute SHAWK by the way!
This was a well defended base with a Rook CV offshore as well... I will not mention names, but a few of the high score guys were defending at first, but when we started to get the upper hand, many of those guys seemed to vanish.. If they lose the advantage, they go away to something else.. Then rant on 200 about the Bish horde attacking their base.
What is your obsession that if guys dont play the base take that they are in it for score? Prob the most ignorant statement one can use in the game
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What is your obsession that if guys dont play the base take that they are in it for score? Prob the most ignorant statement one can use in the game
Well, if your not in it for the base take then stop being ignorant and complaining about base takers... You guys want everyone to play the game your way...
I have no problem with furballers, or any other type of play... Just don't be a hypocrite and complain on 200 about the horde taking your base while you sit in the tower not defending it because your score might suffer... There, I said it. Flame Away!!! :salute
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Well, if your not in it for the base take then stop being ignorant and complaining about base takers... You guys want everyone to play the game your way...
Good percentage of guys that complain about base-takers in this game dont complain about the base take itself. and NO we dont want you to play "our" way. Get a couple years under your belt and you will finally "get it"
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Well, if your not in it for the base take then stop being ignorant and complaining about base takers... You guys want everyone to play the game your way...
I have no problem with furballers, or any other type of play... Just don't be a hypocrite and complain on 200 about the horde taking your base while you sit in the tower not defending it because your score might suffer... There, I said it. Flame Away!!! :salute
so sky u up from capped bases and defend?
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so sky u up from capped bases and defend?
Nope..they using STRATEGERY and are off plugging some other base that is way off the map :rofl
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so sky u up from capped bases and defend?
Look at my deaths. That should answer your question. Get vulched on capped runways and bombed every time I play defending bases.. I salute the winner and up again. I am not worried about my score.. I enjoy playing the game. I think your missing my point. I watch the same thing almost every night.
Bish are working a base. 10 guys on 200 talking crap about the horde trying to take their base. Maybe 1 or 2 of them actually on the ground or in the air defending... :salute
I might add that this happens with all countries including Bish..
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Good percentage of guys that complain about base-takers in this game dont complain about the base take itself. and NO we dont want you to play "our" way. Get a couple years under your belt and you will finally "get it"
I sincerely doubt it :D
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I sincerely doubt it :D
Wow! Tell the truth and they come out of the woodwork after you!!
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Wow! Tell the truth and they come out of the woodwork after you!!
Sky, I watch hockey and the best way to give an analogy on your squad is the same as watching a live game and one guy on my team rails the other team's agitator into the boards.
You willingly took on to a squad that believes in strength in #s and have no qualms to sportmanship when you play the basetake game. Doing so makes you a viable target to most that play this game. Happens to most large squads as they are really disliked in this game.
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Sky, I watch hockey and the best way to give an analogy on your squad is the same as watching a live game and one guy on my team rails the other team's agitator into the boards.
You willingly took on to a squad that believes in strength in #s and have no qualms to sportmanship when you play the basetake game. Doing so makes you a viable target to most that play this game. Happens to most large squads as they are really disliked in this game.
This we agree on oTralFZo! My only point is the players who complain about their bases being taken, yet will not even up to defend them... :salute You and I both know that there are some who do this in the MA's...
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I always thought the "horde" was an interesting topic, because it's both what's good, and what's not good about a massive online game.
Here's the thing... the "horde" has a LOT of positives to offer, and as was previously stated, human nature tends to gravitate us towards that sort of thing. There's comraderie, there's a feeling of participating in something bigger than yourself, there's a feeling of accomplishment if the group you're part of establishes a CAP, sinks the carrier, or takes the base. There's a feeling of "belonging" and flying with a group of other like-minded people.
None of those have anything to do with score whoring, wanting to do overkill, or anything of the sort. The "horde" in my opinion is purely a function of social construct. It satisfies social desires, especially for people who are not known or well established in the game (which classifies probably 90% of the people out there). This tends to be the bread and butter of what keeps a LOT of MMO style games alive, INCLUDING Aces High. Doesn't matter if you're talking PvP or PvE.
As was mentioned before... at one time there used to be "anti-hordes" that'd up in defense, and would create some great fights. A lot of those anti-hordes no longer exist though. Why? What's the difference between then and now? A lot of people think it's the players, and yes, there's some change there, but a lot has to do with the game as well. Back in old Beta days, all you needed to capture an airfield was a goon and nerves of steel. You didn't need CAP, you didn't need to de-ack or take down a town. You just needed to grab a goon, drop 10 drunks on the runway (sometimes under the nose of the enemy), and the field was yours. Because it WAS so easy, multiple fields could change in a matter of minutes, not hours. Defense was incredibly important because if your country didn't participate in both offense AND defense, you'd find that you would be losing bases at a really rediculous rate, and not taking enemy ones nearly as fast.
In a strange way... the addition of difficulty to running bases has actually removed as much importance of keeping bases, and increased the desire for a co-ordinated (or just plain old horde) attacks as taking a base became far more important than keeping them. In old old days... the incentive for defending bases was because they were so easily captured, you needed to pay closer attention... now, there's not nearly as much incentive, and a lot of people figure with the radar, the flashing bases, the ack, the mutliple spawns, the town to take down... someone will eventually go over there to defend.. except there is no "someone" because EVERYONE figures "someone" will, and not do it themselves.
What's the fix? That's a tough one. The social aspect is not something you want to remove from the game because it's the exact same thing that helps keep it alive. Incentivize defense in some way? Perhaps that would help. Make base taking easier? Who knows. Lots of talk about making it tougher over the years is why we are where we are now. Is it even something that NEEDS to be fixed? Well that's the real question in my opinion, and even to that, I could see arguments for both sides, and frankly have no idea what the "right" answer is, other than if I were in HTC's shoes, I'd do whatever answer keeps him running the longest (which is, I'm sure, what he tries to do).
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lol i did quit but im such a loser and have no life that i unquit
Why are you still here? :rolleyes:
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This is true except the ones who are the most vocal about NOE's and Hordes wont up to defend because it will affect the most important thing in the game to them. Their SCORE!
I will say that I see SHAWK on many occasions all alone defending bases against overwhelming numbers attacking. Last night the Bish were attacking A5 in off hours. It was one heck of a fight. Just before the base was taken by us. There was SHAWK all alone mixed up in a fight with 10+ enemy fighters. Talking crap on 200 the entire time.. I have to give him credit. Salute SHAWK by the way!
This was a well defended base with a Rook CV offshore as well... I will not mention names, but a few of the high score guys were defending at first, but when we started to get the upper hand, many of those guys seemed to vanish.. If they lose the advantage, they go away to something else.. Then rant on 200 about the Bish horde attacking their base.
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT BASE TAKING !
Base taking is one of the top things to do in this game, however you don't need a horde to do it either. The point here is by running in a horde your diminishing the fun of your teammates (seeing as the first half of the guys in do all the damage and the second half doesn't do anything), and completely ruining the fun of the opposition. I've heard people say who cares if the opposition has fun? You should. If the opposition doesn't have fun (which is what happens after upping a number of times to get vulched or ganged by 30+ guys trying to defend against a horde) the opposition leaves. Leaves for the night you get a bunch of bases cheap and easy. Leaves for good (cancels their subscription) and the game dies.
I always thought the "horde" was an interesting topic, because it's both what's good, and what's not good about a massive online game.
Here's the thing... the "horde" has a LOT of positives to offer, and as was previously stated, human nature tends to gravitate us towards that sort of thing. There's comraderie, there's a feeling of participating in something bigger than yourself, there's a feeling of accomplishment if the group you're part of establishes a CAP, sinks the carrier, or takes the base. There's a feeling of "belonging" and flying with a group of other like-minded people.
None of those have anything to do with score whoring, wanting to do overkill, or anything of the sort. The "horde" in my opinion is purely a function of social construct. It satisfies social desires, especially for people who are not known or well established in the game (which classifies probably 90% of the people out there). This tends to be the bread and butter of what keeps a LOT of MMO style games alive, INCLUDING Aces High. Doesn't matter if you're talking PvP or PvE.
As was mentioned before... at one time there used to be "anti-hordes" that'd up in defense, and would create some great fights. A lot of those anti-hordes no longer exist though. Why? What's the difference between then and now? A lot of people think it's the players, and yes, there's some change there, but a lot has to do with the game as well. Back in old Beta days, all you needed to capture an airfield was a goon and nerves of steel. You didn't need CAP, you didn't need to de-ack or take down a town. You just needed to grab a goon, drop 10 drunks on the runway (sometimes under the nose of the enemy), and the field was yours. Because it WAS so easy, multiple fields could change in a matter of minutes, not hours. Defense was incredibly important because if your country didn't participate in both offense AND defense, you'd find that you would be losing bases at a really rediculous rate, and not taking enemy ones nearly as fast.
In a strange way... the addition of difficulty to running bases has actually removed as much importance of keeping bases, and increased the desire for a co-ordinated (or just plain old horde) attacks as taking a base became far more important than keeping them. In old old days... the incentive for defending bases was because they were so easily captured, you needed to pay closer attention... now, there's not nearly as much incentive, and a lot of people figure with the radar, the flashing bases, the ack, the mutliple spawns, the town to take down... someone will eventually go over there to defend.. except there is no "someone" because EVERYONE figures "someone" will, and not do it themselves.
What's the fix? That's a tough one. The social aspect is not something you want to remove from the game because it's the exact same thing that helps keep it alive. Incentivize defense in some way? Perhaps that would help. Make base taking easier? Who knows. Lots of talk about making it tougher over the years is why we are where we are now. Is it even something that NEEDS to be fixed? Well that's the real question in my opinion, and even to that, I could see arguments for both sides, and frankly have no idea what the "right" answer is, other than if I were in HTC's shoes, I'd do whatever answer keeps him running the longest (which is, I'm sure, what he tries to do).
Agreed, it is social behavior. I think it can be trained out if those that "lead" truly lead and show other ways to approach the game. The anti-horde squads where not so much "anti-horde" because we really didn't have the horde issue we do now. A good night in the old day was 100 people on. 15 guys hitting a base was a target for defenders because we only had a 12 bases as it was. Some nights your country didn't number enough people to make what HTC allows for a squad here.
As the numbers grow the social behavior will cause the groups to get bigger and bigger until it's a horde. Then as the horde moves around less and less people will try to defend against it. No not because of their score....well not for most any way :D no most give up because it just isn't fun.
Can it be changed, yes I think so. Should it? yes I think so. I know it can change because you see it happen as a player gets more and more time in. I use to run into Falcon23 and his friends all the time. Now adays when you run into him he isn't hiding in a crowd of 30 of his closes friends. These days he's in a much smaller group with better skills. It is a much better fight running into him these days. I don't know if he's having more fun or not, but I know I am, and I'm sure there a many others as well.
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Why are you still here? :rolleyes:
same reason u r
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Why are you still here? :rolleyes:
He never had any intentions of leaving, but he exceeded his catch limit on some of you.
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In my first few weeks (started as a Bish by the way, who at that time were having numbers the big way) , I wasn't even aware that I was hording. After that I didn't mind being part of the horde, because I didn't have the skills yet to survive in a severely disadvantaged numerical situation. And I guess most player are like me: I don't really mind getting killed, but having more deaths than kills is simply no fun for me. Also I wanted to help my country, which in most cases meant capping the base so that the goons can come in.
Only when I became better I started to leave the green cloud more and more. Not for any honor or balance reasons, but just for the fact that I was limiting my kill opportunities. Too few targets & too little competition. Then I became mainly a defender, and that means looking for the NOE or the biggest red dar you can find most of the time. (Which doesn't mean I'm never a part of a vulching horde over your field anymore ;))
Sounds o' so familiar to my early experiences. Flying with the MAW, as a newbie, I was well protected cause we had some of the best sticks in the game, but the flip side of the coin meant that I wasn't getting many kills myself. I could de-ack a field with precision, but when it came to a straight up dogfight ... forget about it. Once the ack was down and if the AKs chipped away at our offense, and I was left to fend for myself ... well ... back to the tower for me. I was game, but I didn't have much game.
After some time, I then decided to part ways with the MAW and seek out a squad that would take someone who was willing to learn and was not afraid to mix it up ... I was fortunate enough to trade some dogfights previously with the 13th TAS guys and was welcomed into their squad and that's where my dog fighting training began. The 13th TAS loved to mix it up with the Blue Knights, so night after night we banged heads with those guys and the more I got killed the more I learned. Sadly, with the introduction of AH II, the 13th TAS became detached from the game, and I was lucky enough to be invited into the Blue Knights (I think Levi felt sorry for me for spanking me at least a million times in Spit V vs Spit V dogfights).
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Thanks fugi,I didnt think anyone was noticing..keep it on the down-low will ya.. ;)
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Yes it is. Absolutely.
Oh, it's not the high art of ACM, it may not be fine style, but it's far from being "not acceptable"
:aok
Any style of gameplay is acceptable. All that really matters is how people react to their styles of gameplay.
-Many love taking bases and working as a team (Theyre hordeing again!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some love furballing endlessly trying to enjoy a few minutes for the thrill of the fight (The furballers wont help take this base!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some love helping others and protecting someone who is in trouble. (Picking!!! Stop picking!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some feel that they are not the best flyer and would love to get a kill (HO!!! VULCH!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some fly for the limited realism including killing the enemy (see pick, ho, vulch, etcetcetc) :rolleyes:
-Some love to fly as a squad and work as a well oiled machine. Whichever style of combat depends on which squad. (Those annoying LCA, CJs, and Devils apparently. Give em a break. they love what they do.) :rolleyes:
(or maybe its that one squad that comes in and shoots you down over and over again?
SCORETARD!!!!) :rolleyes:
Did i cover all the whines? :rofl
Ohh. and by the way. I pick, i HO (if necessary), I vulch (also if necessary). Anyone think less of me for this?
I fly in the horde sometimes. Anyone think less of me for this also?
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:aok
Any style of gameplay is acceptable. All that really matters is how people react to their styles of gameplay.
-Many love taking bases and working as a team (Theyre hordeing again!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some love furballing endlessly trying to enjoy a few minutes for the thrill of the fight (The furballers wont help take this base!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some love helping others and protecting someone who is in trouble. (Picking!!! Stop picking!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some feel that they are not the best flyer and would love to get a kill (HO!!! VULCH!!!) :rolleyes:
-Some fly for the limited realism including killing the enemy (see pick, ho, vulch, etcetcetc) :rolleyes:
-Some love to fly as a squad and work as a well oiled machine. Whichever style of combat depends on which squad. (Those annoying LCA, CJs, and Devils apparently. Give em a break. they love what they do.) :rolleyes:
(or maybe its that one squad that comes in and shoots you down over and over again?
SCORETARD!!!!) :rolleyes:
Did i cover all the whines? :rofl
Ohh. and by the way. I pick, i HO (if necessary), I vulch (also if necessary). Anyone think less of me for this?
I fly in the horde sometimes. Anyone think less of me for this also?
As always. Well said Bar! :salute
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As always. Well said Bar! :salute
all everyone has to do is realize that other people who like different styles of gameplay are also here.
Personally the 20th is a fighter based squad. we work as a team and escort many missions and i make sure that my squad respects all aspects of gameplay (yes even the whiner's style). Never really do the basetaking but we help it out sometimes. :aok
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lol i did quit but im such a loser and have no life that i unquit
This is the smartest saying ever, period. nothing beats it if you really look deep into he meaning. your a g*&da^*genius dmgod :aok :salute
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Kinda funny though, bishops hardly ever have a horde
Either your in the 'Devils Rejects' or you have never played in any of the late war arenas between the hours of 10 PM - 4 AM PST. There is always a bish horde, and I enjoy attacking it. :aok
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:aok
Any style of gameplay is acceptable. All that really matters is how people react to their styles of gameplay.
You are kind of missing the point here bar.
No matter how much anyone can try to prove their point here, it still wont get through people's oppinions.
It should of been pretty well stated with the recent issue of town captures being too tough and needing modifiications that something needed to be done. This issue was backed up by most of the so-called "furballers" as much as the basetakers. The understanding of flying for fun is needed for everyone and not just the so-called elitists that want you to play "their way" because there isnt any "there way" to play to begin with.
Players that have been here years and years can appreciate the amount of work being put into the game such as the attention to modeling etc. Its not that they are whining that people arent playing their game, its frustration of knowing that others can not/will not explore other aspects of the game.
My best analogy I can think of: You think you are much of a sports fisherman if you know of the prize big mouth bass being in a lake and instead of being a sport and trying to catch it the real way, you take a stick of dynamite in hopes of it floating to the top? Would you be much of a sportsman hunter if you took a B.A.R and wipped out a 12 pt. buck? or started shooting birds on the ground instead of giving them a fighting chance?
Thats the so-called "whines" these guys are talking about regarding hording and sneaking.
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:aok
{snip}
Any style of gameplay is acceptable. All that really matters is how people react to their styles of gameplay.
Ohh. and by the way. I pick, i HO (if necessary), I vulch (also if necessary). Anyone think less of me for this?
I fly in the horde sometimes. Anyone think less of me for this also?
{peremptory statement ... when I refer to gamesmanship or game play, I am NOT referring to game style (i.e. land grabber, furballer, hanger bangers, scorepotato, etc.) I refer to the manner in which the 'styles' are achieved}
Clearly, you also think there is 'lack of gamesmanship' in the vulch and the HO, or you would not have needed to justify "as necessary". If these were truly accepted practice, then you simply could have stated, "I HO and Vulch.. I am proud to HO and Vulch and I earned a kill for it." Instead, you have clearly differentiated "as necessary". WHY "AS NECESSARY"??? Don't get me wrong, I understand your statement and don't disagree that there are certain specific times, when one must do certain things. But to emphasize "as necessary" you are admitting that you would not otherwise do that particular action..... why? Either it is good gameplay or it is not.
Now, back to the original quoted post (mine) ... the HO being referenced was NOT one out of necessity. The question presented, why is it fun, when you hold all the advantages (including the initiate to chose the time, place, and manner of attack), to CHOOSE to initiate a HO? The nuance of this question may get lost on some, but I would hope that the vast majority understand what I am asking and understand the point of the discussion.
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This is the smartest saying ever, period. nothing beats it if you really look deep into he meaning. your a g*&da^*genius dmgod :aok :salute
Well thank you Greens is nice to be appreciated for one of my finer qualities for once :salute
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Either your in the 'Devils Rejects' or you have never played in any of the late war arenas between the hours of 10 PM - 4 AM PST. There is always a bish horde, and I enjoy attacking it. :aok
How many attackers do you all consider to be a horde. 5? 10? 15? 20+
If a mission is posted to move on a base, and 20+ guys join , does the mission planner kick half of them out because, the enemy might accuse them of hording?
Clearly in Ardy123's case he enjoys attacking the horde as he stated. At least he is enjoying his game. :salute As for the notorious, despised, and hated Devils Brigade that everyone enjoys slamming in the forums and in the game, rarely are more than 10 players in the game at the same time.. Usually wherever we go, a lot of other Bish just go with us.. Usually a fight is started wherever we go. We win some and we lose some, but the fight is generated.. The same goes for other squads in the game.
I think what happens is that someone logs on, sees the big green dar bar and heads to that location to join the fight. What starts as a base take mission with 10 guys turns into 20 real fast when others see what is going on.. And of course, the enemy sees the V's in front of the names of some people they kill or who kill them, and it becomes another V horde in their eyes.
Many say that we provide easy targets. This is good isn't it? I personally got killed maybe 8 times two nights ago attacking a Rook base. I know I made at least 8 Rooks happy during that take. We created a fight. If we think it could still be taken, we will keep coming back if killed until you reach the point when it is no longer feasible.. Getting killed isnt really a big deal. That 14.95 a month gives you unlimited lives and airplanes to fly. If you get killed, salute the other guy and get another one and try to kill him.. We do not always fly together. I spend much of my game time on the ground in a GV battle somewhere because that is what I enjoy..
Regardless of what others say about the squad, they are for the most part a fine group of friends to interact with and fly with. VDogfite, VDallas, VWintergreen, and VLoki are good guys and I enjoy playing the game with them.
I think the point is that regardless of game play style, the ultimate goal is to have a good time with friends playing the game.. I salute all players who enjoy the game because of that...
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When I fly in MA I find my prime time joy in the hunt. By flying into a horde I will get hunted more often than being the hunter, and even if I get a rush out of it I usually end up in the tower alot sooner than planned.
This is if I fly alone into the red horde.
Flying in a horde of countrymen is not my style at all, even tho I have tried it a few times. I feel it gets boring, it does not give me any meaning to fly around as a gangmember picking shots here and there on random targets allready fighting multiple others.. Then I rather like to drag one out for myself so I can commit to a 1v1 fight instead, much more learning and alot more fun.
But as I said first, I also like to just take off alone and go hunting for the unwary pilot. Hide in the terrain, or the clouds if needed. If I just want to take off and fight right away I just go to the DA.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
BAR Vulched me while I was in the hangar the other day.
He only had about 40 buddies with him at the time.
Was that really necessary?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
:neener:
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I see this as a war game. All the wars that i have ever read about involved one army (horde) attacking another. It is the nature of war, always has been always will be. As long as something can be conquered expect this to happen.
Even in a war game.
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VDogfite, VDallas, VWintergreen, and VLoki are good guys and I enjoy
I want to be leet and have a twelve character handle name too. Ask vWintergreen how he got all those chars cuz my name is only 5 characters and I want one that is at least 10. :furious
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Well delta7 next time you die should HTC send someone to your house and kill you, I've read that happened in the war too. You post was in my opinion one of the stupidest ones I've read in awhile. This is a game, therefore it's suppose to be fun for all.
Sky, a horde is an over whelming force. Why use 40-50 guys were 10-12 will do? Use the extra guys to attack another base or 2. One person said something about running out of guys while trying to take a base. You could use 5 of the extra guys to launch 15 minutes behind the main wing as clean up.
I liked the fishing analogy. You can either do it the sporting way with lures and bait and poles, or you could drop sticks of dynamite in the water.
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Another Horde post?? :rofl :rofl
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I love the hordes. I love to kill them. I love to berate them. I love to hear their moans. I love VDallas (to his credit he was polite) voice tuning me to tell me I have a chance in hell of keeping a field that the Pigs just took and then stomping him and his crew all over the place. I have already said too much... :bolt:
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I enjoy joining base take missions. It's cool to see a bunch of aircraft skimming the wavetops, listening to the radio chatter as targets are assaigned, watching the occasional newbie auger in just before ya arrive, then popping up on dar and generally having a hell of a good time. I think it's a big part of the game and makes the game better, building familarity with other players I might not normally interact with. I meet nice people everywhere here.
More fun for me though is "guess the next base the enemy horde will go to and be there waiting". It's lovely to have the right plane at the right place at the right time and not only be the first one in to thwart the mission, but get on the radio, enlist some help and give out information that will help them to defend with me.
Yesterday I was hanging out high, looking for what I figured to be just one set of inbound buffs when it appeared with a high P51 escort. I know I have a couple of squaddies near so I call em out and instead of taking on the buffs with the P51 chasing me I actually managed a nice fake toward the buffs but then engaged the P51 and got a nice kill. Just as my 2 squaddies attack the buffs and we each take one out.
As has been said in this thread already, a horde is a mix of all kind of pilot skill levels. What's wrong with a guy with limited skills flying with a group that may help him survive long enough to have a little fun. Even if he does not get a kill, he at least gets to see some action he might not be able to when he engages and it last 5 seconds before he is dead.
There are plenty of guys not flying in a horde if you do not want to fly with or against them, go find em, then fight them and just be nice anough to let others play as they like.
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Another Horde post??
(http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/files/2009/06/beating_a_dead_horse1.gif)
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sometimes hordes result in other bases not being defended as well. not to mention the attack trance that results in a decrease in piloting skill.
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(http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/files/2009/06/beating_a_dead_horse1.gif)
USVI is apparently one of the few who do "GET IT"! I couldn't have stated it any better on this topic.
All the Best...
Jay
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not to mention the attack trance that results in a decrease in piloting skill.
Funny you say that... I found a mission put together by a certain well known base taking squad. No less than 15 P47s loaded with ord were flying in a nice long trail formation. I got behind the tail end charlie and shot him down, and then moved onto the next and did the same, repeatedly. Finally, after shooting 12 of them down the last 3 or so decided to actually move and they went for the deck. One of those 3 augered and I shot the other 2 down as they attempted to get close enough to the field to drop their bombs.
If that isn't the definition of lemmings, I don't know what is.
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I liked the fishing analogy. You can either do it the sporting way with lures and bait and poles, or you could drop sticks of dynamite in the water.
Bait is not sporting. Only using lures is sporting.
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Funny you say that... I found a mission put together by a certain well known base taking squad. No less than 15 P47s loaded with ord were flying in a nice long trail formation. I got behind the tail end charlie and shot him down, and then moved onto the next and did the same, repeatedly. Finally, after shooting 12 of them down the last 3 or so decided to actually move and they went for the deck. One of those 3 augered and I shot the other 2 down as they attempted to get close enough to the field to drop their bombs.
If that isn't the definition of lemmings, I don't know what is.
Did this really happen?
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Del, you have to post that film! I would love to see it.
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No, I didn't save the film.
I record all my flights but I end up hitting 'cancel' so often that I do it out of reflex, even if I want to keep it.
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No, I didn't save the film.
I record all my flights but I end up hitting 'cancel' so often that I do it out of reflex, even if I want to keep it.
According to Dedalos (who did not make the rule but formalized it into a decree), if there is no film it didn't happen.
My birth was not filmed so I didn't happen. I know that makes a lot of you very happy.
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The horde now seems to meander about randomly. Why? Perhaps because the maps have NO strategic points that need to be guarded / actually mean anything. In the past, when you had maps with strategic zone bases, I thought that the action picked up quite nicely as you got near to taking one.
this :aok there used to be several important bases on each front, and therefore several different fights on each front. map design plays a more important role in shaping the fights than people realise.
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This is a game, therefore it's suppose to be fun for all.
It's a competitive game. In most peoples' minds, this means it is their job to try as hard as possible to win, within the rules of the game. Did you play any sports competitively? Did you not take scoring opportunities you were presented with to ensure your opponents were having fun? If you did throw those scoring opportunities, did your teammates throw you a sock party afterwards?
Why use 40-50 guys were 10-12 will do?
Because it virtually ensures success, and that is the goal people are trying to accomplish, to succeed in taking the base/getting the kills.
I liked the fishing analogy. You can either do it the sporting way with lures and bait and poles, or you could drop sticks of dynamite in the water.
If there were no law against it, people would use TNT to fish with a lot more often than they do. Like it or not, a good number of people will take the surest path to success they are allowed.
Wiley.
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the reason they take the easiest path, that's how there taught it's the easiest and they learn nothing, same thing can be said for alot of people today, take the easy way out, heaven forbid anyone puts any effort into it
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Pro hockey has a salary cap, why? So one team can't load up on all the best players and making the championship a for gone conclusion.
It,s highly competitive, each player striving to win for his team. Yet there are mechanics in place to try and keep things more even and entertaining for all.
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Why?
"players" want instant action and the darbar tells "them" where it is so "they" go there.
"players" are safer in the "horde".
"players" only real competitors in the "horde" are fellow "horde" members.
"players" "win" in a "horde" because (mostly) "hordes" "win".
"players" dont "lose" in a "horde" because when "hordes" lose "players" do not consider them selves a party to it.
Missions are not hordes. Even big missions. At the very least missons have an objective and a lead persona or group.
Missons can become hordes (or consumed by them) as "players" "flock/swarm" to the dar bar and move with it from objective to objective.
Hordes will some times focus on the activities of a "queen bee" . This personna becomes a "khan" (using the original origin of the term "horde") if the personna is willing to be so used.
No form of logic or persuasion will control, limit or influence a horde, its size or its activities. Unless it is under the influence of a "khan" (even then if the "khan" does not fullfill its function then the "horde" will leave it)
There is no limiting factor to hordes or horde tendancies in AH (AFAICS)
There is only one tool (to my knowledge) that has been proven to limit the effects of horde tendancies within such a game as AH.
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There is only one tool (to my knowledge) that has been proven to limit the effects of horde tendancies within such a game as AH.
and that would be ............ counter there attack
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Yet there are mechanics in place to try and keep things more even...
Precisely. There is no mechanic in place to stop hording. I am pretty sure it's impossible to implement a mechanic that can stop hording without killing the game. The mentality in all online games is to win within the 'rules' set down by the game mechanics. Not by the rules people seek to have people follow out of their good graces, but of what the game mechanics will allow you to do within the game.
If it's possible ingame, someone will do it regardless of how 'unfair' it may be to the other side.
Wiley.
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The mechanism that limits the effect of hordes is the field (zone) limit..................
AH simply (via one set of maths or another) limits the number of players that can be flying or driving from a given field at any given time. (In AW you got the message "all the planes/vehicles available from this field are in use at the moment")
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The mechanism that limits the effect of hordes is the field (zone) limit..................
Is that a really recent update, or something ancient? I've upped from some pretty seriously populated areas over the last year or two and never once seen that message or seen anything about a field limit anywhere.
Wiley.
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its ancient............... along time ago in a place far far away ;)
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its ancient............... along time ago in a place far far away ;)
That'd be great.
That way caps can tell me what arena to join,
ENY can tell me what plane to fly,
and field limits can tell me where to spawn.
:t,
Wab
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That'd be great.
That way caps can tell me what arena to join,
ENY can tell me what plane to fly,
and field limits can tell me where to spawn.
:t,
Wab
LOL! We're almost there... now to implement a dueling flag system so you will only be able to be damaged by the guy you choose to fight, and the system will be perfect.
Wiley.
(Note: The dueling flag idea is sarcasm, though I did see someone suggest it seriously the other day and almost wept.)
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I want to be leet and have a twelve character handle name too. Ask vWintergreen how he got all those chars cuz my name is only 5 characters and I want one that is at least 10. :furious
vGRIZZLYBEAR4411
hope this helps :D
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I want to be leet and have a twelve character handle name too. Ask vWintergreen how he got all those chars cuz my name is only 5 characters and I want one that is at least 10. :furious
Yeah, good point!!! I wanted to be PinkFuzzyBunnies but that was too many characters and I was forced to limit it to 8 :furious :furious :furious
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No form of logic or persuasion will control, limit or influence a horde, its size or its activities. Unless it is under the influence of a "khan" (even then if the "khan" does not fullfill its function then the "horde" will leave it)
:lol :aok
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That is what is missing in the game IMHO ... countries don't see to have the "core" set of squads that are the "protectors".
AKs, LTARs, JG3-udet, etc. a few of the squads that were fun to fight with or against.
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SYSTEM: You shot down oMastin_Toowaliga_Labba_Kaddn eesa_Kadwaliga_Landa_ForSunBa to
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I want to be leet and have a twelve character handle name too. Ask vWintergreen how he got all those chars cuz my name is only 5 characters and I want one that is at least 10. :furious
Forgive me Grizz. vWNTRGRN is actually the correct call sign..
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Another Horde post?? :rofl :rofl
(http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/files/2009/06/beating_a_dead_horse1.gif)
:rofl 2 notorious hording squad`s whoda thunk
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:rofl 2 notorious hording squad`s whoda thunk
Who?
POTW hardly gets past 10 members a night, only on Titanic Tuesday do we get 15+.
We'd much prefer to up a bunch of I16s into a horde than be that horde. :aok
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:rofl 2 notorious hording squad`s whoda thunk
A notorious whinner whoda thunk? :D
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Forgive me Grizz. vWNTRGRN is actually the correct call sign..
Lame, I thought he had unlocked the secrets of 8+ charactered names. Back to your regular scheduled program.
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well at least it was him and not his shade, busting the Horde is much more gratifying
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There is only one tool (to my knowledge) that has been proven to limit the effects of horde tendancies within such a game as AH.
two-six-two
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Wow! Tell the truth and they come out of the woodwork after you!!
Your version of the truth comes across alot like a noob with a chip on his shoulder, to me anyway.
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:rofl 2 notorious hording squad`s whoda thunk
Apparently YOU didn't "thunk" before you posted. :rolleyes:
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In reading this thread, a` couple things popped into my head from the old Airwarrior days. It was a small enough 'community' that when you arrived you got the message really quickly. Those who went against the 'code' were for the most part universally disdained, and because of that peer pressure, many took the next step up in playing the game. Yes it was much more combat oriented. With the far larger numbers in AH, it's much easier to get lost in the crowd, and whatever peer pressure there is tends to stress belonging to a big squad and fitting in that way.
Another thing that occurred to me was that there are a lot of complaints here about maps not changing fast enough. One thing that happened in Airwarrior with the limited maps, was people tended to work out of the same areas and you knew where the fight would be. The maps were smaller too so there was no real way to work around combat.
I'm not suggesting a change or expecting one. But seeing the responses of folks justifying the hordes, it speaks to that change from combat to conquest that the game seems to have taken.
Clearly there are still guys who are willing to up into the mob as long as they can and try and take a few down. I believe those are the exception to the rule however these days. And there are clearly those who still crave the ACM part of the game. But even many of those guys in fighting the horde don't do it from below, but in perk birds that they use to club the baby seals.
It seemed clear that HTC was looking for the split arenas to help retain some of that community peer pressure. On any given night you can pop between the arenas and if one country is hording in one arena, they are getting horded in the other.
No idea what the answer is to provide some sort of balanced fighting in all the arenas.
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Precisely. There is no mechanic in place to stop hording. I am pretty sure it's impossible to implement a mechanic that can stop hording without killing the game. The mentality in all online games is to win within the 'rules' set down by the game mechanics. Not by the rules people seek to have people follow out of their good graces, but of what the game mechanics will allow you to do within the game.
If it's possible ingame, someone will do it regardless of how 'unfair' it may be to the other side.
Wiley.
OK so what we've come up with so far is that the horde is pretty much a "social behavior". Safety in numbers, the feeling of accomplishment for those that don't have a lot of accomplishment on their own. The flying with others to make friends, and the drive to win no matter the consequences.
Wiley, a question to you. If your ingame name is Wiley, it shows you have been here less than a year, but not much less. From your comments it looks like you like hordes, at least being in one, I don't know many people who like getting trampled by one :D . Do you feel you are getting all you can out of the game? From your score ( I know it is very subjective) it looks like you play different parts of the game, GV fighters buffs altho the buffs and GV look more like bringin troops in, but it also looks like your not showing any real improvement in any of the areas of the game. That's why I'm asking. Are you happy with what your getting out of the game?
Do you look to get to be a better fight jock? Do you look to get better at dive bombing? Do you look to get better at tanks? It looks to me, and has been mentioned by many that a lot of the players that run in the horde do so because they want the protection that their lack of skill can not provide. I think running in a horde may also lead to players NOT learning to get better. Why would they have to, they have 30-40 of their closest friends to cover their back. Wiley, do you feel that running in a horde is slowing your learning in the game, or does it not even enter your mind because your happy play as you are?
I'm not trying to pick on you, but you do seem to fit the demographic that we are talking about here. I'd just like to here your point of view, like I said at the beginning, why run in a horde?
AKs, LTARs, JG3-udet, etc. a few of the squads that were fun to fight with or against.
This is another thing, what changed and why don't we have squads like this any more? There are hundreds of squads in this game. Many are of a good size and could work a battle, or defend against one. Why don't you see more squad rivalries like we use to have? What changed? Personally I think the players looking for the quickest and easiest solution to grab land and AVOID combat. As the game has progressed along those lines the new players see "that's how it's done" and they continue with it.
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In reading this thread, a` couple things popped into my head...
You were a poet,
And u didn't even no that u were won of those poet guys...
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Hordes are a product of the mission planners.
Not really. The one thing the mission planner has the least control over is who shows up for the mission. And 30-40 plane missions are pretty rare. If you see a horde that size, what most likely happened is that 12-15 guys joined the mission and 20-30 other guys decided to follow along for easy kills once they saw a big green blob dominating an enemy base. After that, if it doesn't fizzle out, the horde pretty much takes on its own momentum without anyone leading it and usually without missions being posted. Usually half the guys, sometimes all of them, don't even care about taking bases, they just want to circle around competing for vulches.
Also, I think you vastly overestimate the extent of tactical control the mission leader is able to exert over the people flying a mission. Try running a big mission sometime, it's like herding cats. You have a pretty random group of guys who happened to show up, it's not like running a squad with a well-defined command structure and members who've trained and worked together. It's hard enough getting a mob like that to follow any but the most basic tactical plan - climb or NOE, flatten the field or leave it up - and assigning targets so at least everything vital gets taken down; anything beyond that is just about impossible to coordinate. And you have no idea of the skill level of most of the guys there, so you can't rely on anything getting done without multiply redundant assignments. Sending half the group to do something else, somewhere else almost guarantees that something vitally important won't get done right here, right now.
And you never know who's actually going to show up until it launches, or even how many - people pop in and out, and some who have joined will get bored and up somewhere else, or not have landed yet, and so miss the launch. Sometimes you have 8 or 10 people actually in the mission 30 seconds before launch only to find 20 actually taking off. Sometimes it's closer to the reverse. Telling half of a motley gang like that to land, up at another base, and go hit a different target isn't remotely practical - for one thing, they didn't sign on to join your squad or make you Generalissimo for the evening, they signed on to fly along for that one mission, the one you posted. They may or may not have any interest in doing anything else you have in mind.
And most guys who plan and run missions - and anyone who wants people to show up the next time he runs one - think it more polite to thank people for joining than to tell them to buzz off.
In essence you are looking at hordes as well-coordinated actions of a few squads working closely together to a common purpose, when they aren't like that at all. A mob of 40 players cannot be subdivided into two or three well-coordinated, skilled groups of 12-20 players the way you suggest. That simply isn't what they're made of. They act like big, uncoordinated, leaderless mobs because they are big, uncoordinated, leaderless mobs. There may or may not be a smaller core of people actually working well together within that mob. There may or may nor be a mission planner who launched the group toward one objective and made some attempt to coordinate their actions - but if there is, trust me, that's pretty much the extent of his ability to direct the action. Acting as Commander-in-Chief of all Bishop (or Rook, or Knight) Forces and coordinating multiple attacks at multiple enemy targets by large numbers of otherwise unaffiliated players simply is not within the capabilities offered by the game. It certainly isn't something the Mission tool allows anyone to do.
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Not really. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Huh?
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OK Crash, I understand what your saying. Are you saying that is how it happens when your squad runs? I ask an honest question here. In the old days I was CO of the 444th Air Mafia. We were a big squad, and a base taking squad... 11 in a couple hours once. Many a time we would load up a mission and we would have many people join up with us.
With the mission planner we have in AH the mission isn't revealed much, in AWIII we had a ready room and the plan with waypoints was on a board all could see. The advantage in AH is that if people join your mission there suppose to be there to follow a leader, because they don't KNOW what the mission is. If that leader takes the time like I did to assign targets, and back ups based on "who" was getting the assignment (AAA I don't know, but I give him a target, but BBB I know can do the job so he gets back up for the same target. AAA build confidence and skill, but I still have BBB to cover the mission) you can control who goes where, and what gets hit very easily.
All it takes is planning and a leader with the willingness to do the work. On squad nights I spent all of my time in a buff. I didn't have to pay as much attention to flying but was on the scene to see what was needed where. Sometimes calling people off one target to turn to another base to slow the defense. Tzr did the missions after me, and then Mugz when he took over. They must have been fun for a lot of people if 3 CO's over a few years kept them going.
So the question Crash is do your mission leaders point out all of the mission details or do they say flatten the town and so and so bring troops?
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Your version of the truth comes across alot like a noob with a chip on his shoulder, to me anyway.
Sorry Rino, I didnt read the forum rules where it said you had to be playing since AW to post in the forums. This must be your rule. As for the chip :lol :lol :lol
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hordes? screw hordes.....
I'm still upset about not being able to have PinkFuzzyBunnies as my handle.... vSky made me hopeful, only to drop my hopes later... :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry
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ive been fighting the horde since 04, to me there is nothing better then attacking 10 or more guys and fighting untill dead, even if I dont get to kill any of them, each and every one of them knows the only reason they got me was there numbers, I HATE flying with a bunch of green guys around me, except the Muppets, we for the most part will switch sides to fight the guys that were just friendlies when they become a horde, that is probably my favorite thing to do in AH, there is no skill...in killing one guy when you have 10 friendlies with ya, but some, seems most dont care about that, they just want to stay alive in a game were no one dies..lol..I dont understand that thinking, but I like that many think like that, priovides me with a target rich enviorment :-)
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Your version of the truth comes across alot like a noob with a chip on his shoulder, to me anyway.
HA!! says the guy that flys bombers and needs extra parts for his planes.
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In reading this thread, a` couple things popped into my head from the old Airwarrior days. It was a small enough 'community' that when you arrived you got the message really quickly. Those who went against the 'code' were for the most part universally disdained, and because of that peer pressure, many took the next step up in playing the game.
I think these are memories of AWDOS & AW4W. I dont think this was the case in the AW3 RR arenas and those arenas were the majority of AW players, capture was in place and the horde existed. Even in the lowely populated FR areanas hording or pigpilling was in evidence IMO.
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(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/skydiver22/ahss52.jpg)
about 10 more planes not pictured.
Everybody does this. Rooks, Bish and Knits!!
:rofl ok vsky just change the rook icon to bishop and thats your missions
p.s i'm the lanc on the right :neener:
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A notorious whinner whoda thunk? :D
Apparently YOU didn't "thunk" before you posted. :rolleyes:
Who?
POTW hardly gets past 10 members a night, only on Titanic Tuesday do we get 15+.
We'd much prefer to up a bunch of I16s into a horde than be that horde. :aok
Bait casted Fish caught! :rofl for copies of this fishing program email TB@aceshighangler.com
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ive been fighting the horde since 04, to me there is nothing better then attacking 10 or more guys and fighting untill dead, even if I dont get to kill any of them, each and every one of them knows the only reason they got me was there numbers, I HATE flying with a bunch of green guys around me, except the Muppets, we for the most part will switch sides to fight the guys that were just friendlies when they become a horde, that is probably my favorite thing to do in AH, there is no skill...in killing one guy when you have 10 friendlies with ya, but some, seems most dont care about that, they just want to stay alive in a game were no one dies..lol..I dont understand that thinking, but I like that many think like that, priovides me with a target rich enviorment :-)
I've found the game to be a billion times better since I have started switching sides to attack the hoards. I have some of the DM's with me and for the most part it's a blast. also so you guys know when you stop caring about score oh my how much better the game is. Now if only they'll fix the caps and the off hour arena stuff and the game will be great :banana:
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I've found the game to be a billion times better since I have started switching sides to attack the hoards. I have some of the DM's with me and for the most part it's a blast. also so you guys know when you stop caring about score oh my how much better the game is. Now if only they'll fix the caps and the off hour arena stuff and the game will be great :banana:
huh?? your back?? you quit a less than a week ago...
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You are kind of missing the point here bar.
No matter how much anyone can try to prove their point here, it still wont get through people's oppinions.
It should of been pretty well stated with the recent issue of town captures being too tough and needing modifiications that something needed to be done. This issue was backed up by most of the so-called "furballers" as much as the basetakers. The understanding of flying for fun is needed for everyone and not just the so-called elitists that want you to play "their way" because there isnt any "there way" to play to begin with.
Players that have been here years and years can appreciate the amount of work being put into the game such as the attention to modeling etc. Its not that they are whining that people arent playing their game, its frustration of knowing that others can not/will not explore other aspects of the game.
My best analogy I can think of: You think you are much of a sports fisherman if you know of the prize big mouth bass being in a lake and instead of being a sport and trying to catch it the real way, you take a stick of dynamite in hopes of it floating to the top? Would you be much of a sportsman hunter if you took a B.A.R and wipped out a 12 pt. buck? or started shooting birds on the ground instead of giving them a fighting chance?
Thats the so-called "whines" these guys are talking about regarding hording and sneaking.
on the contrary i believe you are missing my point. You may not like the way others play in this game, but you should respect how they play the game. To the analogy, if you believe it is wrong to throw the dynamite into the lake for the bass then dont do it. If you see someone do it, dont speak of it. He may like doing it that way as it is easier while you love the challenge of actually catching it the "correct way". In life, many things are judged upon as "correct" or "incorrect". Unless told by the makers of the game (or in the way of the fishing, if you are told by the government, owner of the property, or by the judge of a competition) that it is wrong to do it that way, there IS NO WRONG WAY to do it. Therefore the whining of people saying it is a cheap way to kill or easy way to take a base should keep their mouths closed because a kill is a kill to some, a base is a base to some. If you believe it is a cheap shot, then dont do it yourself. But by yelling at the person who did it to you is unsportsmanlike in itself...
(not saying you did what i put in bold. this is a general statement)
{peremptory statement ... when I refer to gamesmanship or game play, I am NOT referring to game style (i.e. land grabber, furballer, hanger bangers, scorepotato, etc.) I refer to the manner in which the 'styles' are achieved}
Clearly, you also think there is 'lack of gamesmanship' in the vulch and the HO, or you would not have needed to justify "as necessary". If these were truly accepted practice, then you simply could have stated, "I HO and Vulch.. I am proud to HO and Vulch and I earned a kill for it." Instead, you have clearly differentiated "as necessary". WHY "AS NECESSARY"??? Don't get me wrong, I understand your statement and don't disagree that there are certain specific times, when one must do certain things. But to emphasize "as necessary" you are admitting that you would not otherwise do that particular action..... why? Either it is good gameplay or it is not.
I do not believe there is a lack of sportsmanship by vulching or hoing. It is my personal belief that it is not a challenge for me. Sportsmanship has nothing to do with why i dont HO or vulch if i dont have to. I'd rather show the other flyer i can kill them without the HO or VULCH. Seeing a plane go down because i outflew them is my personal satisfaction. Also HOs are chancy. If i HO it offers the enemy a chance to shoot me down. I fly to live and head ons may get me killed. I hate dieing :aok
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
BAR Vulched me while I was in the hangar the other day.
He only had about 40 buddies with him at the time.
Was that really necessary?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
:neener:
hmm... taking a base... yup it was :aok and by the way. 15 isnt 40, and of those 15, many were destroying town and killing aircraft in the air and on the runway. so yeah. me killing you in the hanger was necessary. :aok and now that you just whined and mocked me. it gives me more satisfaction that you kept dieing :D
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Bait casted Fish caught! :rofl for copies of this fishing program email TB@aceshighangler.com
Just throwing it out there for the weak minded. ;)
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AKs, LTARs, JG3-udet, etc. a few of the squads that were fun to fight with or against.
Hells Angels or AKs vs. LTAR were some of the most drawn out fights I've ever had the pleasure to be a part of. Good times.
IMO base defense was really where LTAR stood out. GHI used to post the following picture. And remember, kiddies, this was in the days before the Wirbelwind. :aok
(http://www2.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/5e50fec2332fac17f7bbe9138d1255a05g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=jthozy1tw4w&thumb=4)
Sadly, to the point many are making, I can't think of any squads these days who regularly make base defense "their thing" anymore. Capturing real estate must get more chicks.
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Capturing real estate must get more chicks.
Are you hitting on Silat again?
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Are you hitting on Silat again?
Ummm . . . . no? :uhoh
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hmm... taking a base... yup it was :aok and by the way. 15 isnt 40, and of those 15, many were destroying town and killing aircraft in the air and on the runway. so yeah. me killing you in the hanger was necessary. :aok and now that you just whined and mocked me. it gives me more satisfaction that you kept dieing :D
Too bad you never got the base kiddo.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Keep trying to impress us with your wit. You only give us chuckles.
Edit: I forgot to mention. Nobody was getting killed in the air, as I was the only upper.
Until help came, at which time you and your lady friends tucked tail and left.
How's that for mocking you girly?
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Too bad you never got the base kiddo.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Keep trying to impress us with your wit. You only give us chuckles.
Edit: I forgot to mention. Nobody was getting killed in the air, as I was the only upper.
Until help came, at which time you and your lady friends tucked tail and left.
How's that for mocking you girly?
OH NO HE DIDN"T
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OH NO HE DIDN"T
Sure did.
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I think these are memories of AWDOS & AW4W. I dont think this was the case in the AW3 RR arenas and those arenas were the majority of AW players, capture was in place and the horde existed. Even in the lowely populated FR areanas hording or pigpilling was in evidence IMO.
Yeah that's probably true. I do know some of us thought it a mistake when AW3 went the win the war route. Apparently it puts players in the seats so to speak.
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on the contrary i believe you are missing my point. You may not like the way others play in this game, but you should respect how they play the game. To the analogy, if you believe it is wrong to throw the dynamite into the lake for the bass then dont do it. If you see someone do it, dont speak of it.
I do not believe there is a lack of sportsmanship by vulching or hoing.
Please tell me you dont have kids and that you arent going to teach them how to fish. Understand that being a community here means that EVERYONE is playing in the sandbox. If you want to kick sand and act like a maniac, the more power to ya. Nothing I say or do is going to keep you from doing what you are doing, but what I think of you is my choice. Apparantly Im not crazy here and know that many others share my same oppinion so if you even remotely care of what society (in this case the gaming community) thinks, you will come to the conclusion on your own if your actions are justified.
In the meantime, pay your 15$, vulch your heart out, take them bases, no elitist furball evil guy is going to care ( honestly). But they pay their 15$ too and that earns them the right to laugh at you :aok
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Too bad you never got the base kiddo.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Keep trying to impress us with your wit. You only give us chuckles.
Edit: I forgot to mention. Nobody was getting killed in the air, as I was the only upper.
Until help came, at which time you and your lady friends tucked tail and left.
How's that for mocking you girly?
youre honestly mocking me melvin? :lol its not that we turned tail and left. its that some people who were trying to take the base completely FAILED in how to do it. if you noticed the 20th FG was still there a half hour after everyone else left. you didnt see the constant flow of 51s and 38s? stop trolling melvin. you wont win :aokOH NO HE DIDN"T
kinda funny. :lol Please tell me you dont have kids and that you arent going to teach them how to fish. Understand that being a community here means that EVERYONE is playing in the sandbox. If you want to kick sand and act like a maniac, the more power to ya. Nothing I say or do is going to keep you from doing what you are doing, but what I think of you is my choice. Apparantly Im not crazy here and know that many others share my same oppinion so if you even remotely care of what society (in this case the gaming community) thinks, you will come to the conclusion on your own if your actions are justified.
In the meantime, pay your 15$, vulch your heart out, take them bases, no elitist furball evil guy is going to care ( honestly). But they pay their 15$ too and that earns them the right to laugh at you :aok
tralfz. honestly out of everything i was trying to say, its a game. its always been a game, and always will be. you saying people are insane by vulching and HOing. you also realize that if someone threw a stick of dynamite in the river you wouldnt be staying there long right? it is your choice what to teach others. I would not teach my kids (that i dont have yet) that it is right to do that. But i wouldnt approach the person doing it either. It would cause problems for me that are not worth it (most likely with me being shot by an insane man). I would bring my children to another lake to fish and leave the insane man alone :aok
The isnt a lack of sportsmanship in this game. BECAUSE IT ISNT A SPORT! it is a war simulation. and in war, the person with the advantage is usually the victor. Many people in this game simulate war. it is your choice to yell at them telling their way to play is wrong or to stay silent about it. This isnt about teaching others right or wrong, this is about leaving others's style of gameplay to themselves. You have completely mistaken what i have said here... I teach my squad to use ACMs and SA, i teach them also that HOing "is a very dangerous tactic that chances your death" not that it is "unsportsmanlike". Because there is no sport in killing. There is no sport in war. Yes this is a game and i understand that. But like i have said it is also a war simulation.
I also teach my squad that it is a game. And that having fun trumps all other things here. Everyone has their own opinion of what fun is. By whining at others for trying to have fun in their own way is just showing them you have disrespect for them and that you consider them bad for what they are doing.
If you noticed here also, melvin is mocking me for vulching him while we were trying to take a base and is also trolling me through this thread. This shows he has disrespect for me. Should i disrespect him for it? no. because he believes in a style of gameplay that does not coincide with mine.
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What's "trolling"?
I was just mocking you and your incessant belief that the things you say don't contradict your actions.
Don't blame other's shortcomings for your failures.
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What's "trolling"?
I was just mocking you and your incessant belief that the things you say don't contradict your actions.
Don't blame other's shortcomings for your failures.
thats trolling :aok
and since when have i ever blamed another for my failures? secondly i never have contradicted my actions with what i say. You have just seen a separate point of view (which by the way is completely off base from the truth) that somehow has become mockery of me that should not be there :rolleyes:
The vulching i did of you was necessary at the time therefore i did it. Just because we did not take the base does not mean my vulching had no point to it. The sooner you realize this the sooner this argument will be over.
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So, you're saying that my point of view is "completely off base from the truth"?
How disrespectful.
Again you contradict yourself.
Edit: By the way, you blamed "some people" who completely "failed" at taking that base you were working so hard to cap. Which you "failed" at doing.
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So, you're saying that my point of view is "completely off base from the truth"?
How disrespectful.
Again you contradict yourself.
it is not disrespectful. it is me saying that it is off base from the truth because you have only been able to see one side of the fight. therefore it is completely off base from the truth. I have not disrespected you for saying this. just getting tired of you arguing a point that isnt there and trolling me
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Instead of us trading barbs on the BBS, I call you out to the DA right now sir.
I demand satisfaction.
01:30 CST. Be there or be square.
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Edit: By the way, you blamed "some people" who completely "failed" at taking that base you were working so hard to cap. Which you "failed" at doing.
this is not me BLAMING anyone. it is me showing you why what happened had happened (which still seems to be you not seeing the whole picture and im trying to describe it to you). Do you see me saying names melvin? if i was blaming anyone id be pointing fingers. Working so hard to cap? not hard to cap. In the end the flight was a failure. i agree to that. but you still have not shown me any point of me contradicting anything i have said or why you are still pushing this argument
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Instead of us trading barbs on the BBS, I call you out to the DA right now sir.
I demand satisfaction.
01:30 CST. Be there or be square.
I dont duel for satisfaction. To me there is no point to show muscle in a verbal argument to show which of the argument is victor. Are you admitting defeat to this argument melvin? :aok
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Whatever you say square.
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Whatever you say square.
i gotta ask melvin. how long have you played this game? im too lazy to look up in the score listings
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I think I signed up 1 year ago at Christmas time.
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I think I signed up 1 year ago at Christmas time.
youll soon realize that dueling means nothing in this game. Many of the 3 year+ vets duel for the fun. not for the satisfaction. So if you wish to duel in that form keep trying in the dueling arena or look for chest thumpers here. Although i will admit one thing and that is that the DA is a cesspool of chest thumping people who if flew one day in the MAs wouldnt stand a chance. This argument could have stayed more cordial if you left the mockery out at the beginning bud :aok
You'll notice alot more in this game in a year or two. All 3 sides are the same (whether people admit it or not) with their base takers, their noobs, their score players, their furballers, and their crap talkers, etc. And that how you play really doesnt matter in the end as long as you have fun and try not to walk all over others. <S> sir
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Money talks.
B.S. walks.
Hope you got comfortable boots.
This right here is the problem.
For all the blow and bluster from this kid, he still won't go to the DA and beat up on a noob like me.
Poor BAR, destined to a life of hiding in the horde. Never to break free and fly like the eagle that he really is.
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Money talks.
B.S. walks.
Hope you got comfortable boots.
This right here is the problem.
For all the blow and bluster from this kid, he still won't go to the DA and beat up on a noob like me.
Poor BAR, destined to a life of hiding in the horde. Never to break free and fly like the eagle that he really is.
im sorry but it seems you dont realize that chest thumping like what you are doing with me doesnt matter to me :aok i know my skills. i also know that i can kill you over and over again nonstop if i wanted to. i dont just live in a horde bud. i also dont just live alone. ive played on this game for almost 7 years and command a squad of who i could call some of the finest people ive met in a long time and whether their skill is good or bad doesnt matter to me. now heres where i break from what i have said before. you're completely below my level :rofl
Edit: Blow and bluster? :rofl its the truth. its a game and always will be. live and let live with the styles of gameplay. what does it matter how another person plays? if you have a problem with the way they play then play differently yourself. Blow and bluster :rofl now i realize that you just want to win this argument (which you never did) and/or show a veteran of this game up. Which, by the way is kind of funny.
Third off. you think money talks? yeah thats the way to live... shows that you deserve disrespectful remarks. I live in a low income family. $15 is great for me. I honestly could care less about money and what am i B.S.ing about? :lol
and dont call me kid. from what you just wrote, it shows everyone to read this from now on that you are either an immature child or immature adult and god help us all if its the second. You want respect? earn it. You want to show people up? find someone who actually would listen to you because im tired of you.
Back to what i was saying earlier. YOURE TROLLING
And if you honestly think i am a bad pilot? ask around... I'm not the best and know that but i'm 100% sure you'd lose any 1 vs 1 against me. Good luck finding me in the MAs because im not going to DA you over your glorious prideful insights and ignorance.
This is where i end my discussion with you entirely. mock me all you want melvin. i dont care anymore :aok
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:loltralfz. honestly out of everything i was trying to say, its a game. its always been a game, and always will be. ..... you also realize that if someone threw a stick of dynamite in the river you wouldnt be staying there long right? it is your choice what to teach others. I would not teach my kids (that i dont have yet) that it is right to do that. But i wouldnt approach the person doing it either. It would cause problems for me that are not worth it (most likely with me being shot by an insane man). I would bring my children to another lake to fish and leave the insane man alone :aok
The isnt a lack of sportsmanship in this game. BECAUSE IT ISNT A SPORT! it is a war simulation.
I also teach my squad that it is a game. And that having fun trumps all other things here. Everyone has their own opinion of what fun is. By whining at others for trying to have fun in their own way is just showing them you have disrespect for them and that you consider them bad for what they are doing.
1. On your first point, you are correct it is a game. And with any GAME there is sportsmanship (or gamesmanship if you prefer the vernacular). How you play a game is directly relevant to the game itself and those that play it.
2. As your or teaching comments.... there is more to teaching that just NOT saying something is wrong. Why would you not teach your children that it is wrong to 'throw dynamite'? By your illustration, what you have taught is to not take any personal responsibility and just go some where else. You have let SOMEONE ELSE run you off from where you wanted to be. I encounter this everyday. People want safe communities, they want a drug and gang free neighborhood, but when authorities need information or assistance we get, "I don't want to get involved." Well, you can't have it both ways. Nothing in this life is free. You must pay some cost either fiscal or personal, but the cost must be paid by someone. Now am I really suggesting your confront every armed dynamite throwing lunatic? No, my point is rather than 'just go somewhere else' be a part of fixing the problem. Take some responsibility for the community in which you participate and correct things that are amiss.
3. To your sportsmanship remark.... I refer back to point 1. You were correct first when you said it is a game. This is NOT war simulation. If we played the game exactly as we do now, but changed the graphics to Mario's riding clouds and throwing mushrooms, would this still be a "War Simulation?" IRL, war means death and destruction. AH people do not really die. IRL, wars are fought with limited resources to include, money, guns, people, ships, planes, tanks, and food. When was the last time you sat in on an AH Budget planning session? When was the last time that you went to the hanger in AH and found it EMPTY? You were 100% correct when you said, "ITS A GAME". Lets call a duck a duck... AH is a game. There is nothing WAR about it. And, because it is a game, there is gamesmanship. We have all paid for the right to be here. That makes it a community. As a community, we set our own morals and standards. If you teach those standards, then the community thrives. Failure to teach standards turns us into mob and eventually the MOB will DIE OUT. (ie... no more AH)
4. You said you teach "HAVING FUN TRUMPS ALL". Really? Is that what we have become? A group of "I only care about my own personal instant gratification?" It is a game and it should be fun. Just like football is a game and should be fun. It would be fun for me to score a touchdown on every play. To that end, I have decided that everytime I am about to be tackled, I am going to pull out a gun and shoot the opposing player -- now I can score every play! Won't that be fun! Yes, that is an extreme example; but, the point is made. It is about fun, but it is not just about YOUR OWN satisfaction.
Clearly, you are set in your ways, and I don't expect anything I say here to make any major life altering decisions for you. But I would encourage you to think about what has been posted here. The attitudes you express go far beyond just being in AH. I would submit that they are not only unhealthy for AH, but can be an unhealthy life philosophy. Forget AH for a second. Take a stand. Don't let 'dynamite guy' force you to go somewhere else. If it is your pond to fish, then fish it. If 'dynamite guy' blows up all the fish in that pond, where are you going to fish next week? We all have a right to fish in the pond. The key is to NOT let one person take all the fish. We have to protect that pond so that we can all ALL continue to enjoy it. That takes responsibility and it takes action of some sort.
and, that brings us back to Fugi's original post.... why not teach new players and squads to break up the monster horde? Why not teach new players NOT to HO. How much more fun would they have if they learned long term skills rather than short term self-gratification? It is a matter of mindset NOT code changes.
With Respect, :salute
Jeff
:cheers:
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i know my skills. i also know that i can kill you over and over again nonstop if i wanted to.
Heh. Well, perhaps you should just go thrash the lad then, teach him to talk back to his elders.
- oldman
"Ten bucks on Melvin!"
"Oh shut up, gambling is almost as immoral as stealing someone's money."
"Well, hey, that's all I was trying to do!"
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i have my money on bar.
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Instead of us trading barbs on the BBS, I call you out to the DA right now sir.
I demand satisfaction.
01:30 CST. Be there or be square.
This to me is worse than HO'ing, vulching, picking, camping.........DA does not and will never ever prove anything... wanna DA!!!!!!!!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl.......my cartoon plane is better than your cartoon plane :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Ok now that the children have stopped yelling can we get back on topic? :)
NClawman, I agree with what your saying. Why can't people play with more sportsmanship/gamesmanship? Everyone can still fight in fighters, GVs, land grabbing, win the war. Would it hurt to take a moment to look at the missions and say "what would it be like if this was thrown at me?". - hope we get some answers from Crash and wiley as to the questions I asked. I'm very interested in their point of view
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OK so what we've come up with so far is that the horde is pretty much a "social behavior". Safety in numbers, the feeling of accomplishment for those that don't have a lot of accomplishment on their own. The flying with others to make friends, and the drive to win no matter the consequences.
That's in the vicinity of how I see it. I don't really think most hordelings think in terms of 'safety' but more in terms of 'ability to push the enemy around'. I think that's a somewhat important distinction.
Wiley, a question to you. If your ingame name is Wiley, it shows you have been here less than a year, but not much less.
Yup, that's me. I was playing Warbirds fairly heavily since new year's 2007 until I came over here. So it's not precisely that I started cold and showed no improvement, more along the lines of my ACM and fighting ability is somewhat plateaued, and it was just me learning the flight models over here, and how to deal with more than 60 people in an arena at once. <g>
From your comments it looks like you like hordes, at least being in one, I don't know many people who like getting trampled by one :D .
I like hordes, when two of them meet. I don't enjoy being part of the flock of seagulls shouting 'Mine! Mine!' as ten of them swoop in on the single red dot in the sector, I avoid that as a rule. If I'm trying to help take a base, I'll help vulc-er... suppress enemy activity if need be, but I don't obsessively patrol the runway, nor do I chest thump when I do it. <g>
Where I get my jollies is flying with a few wingmen and trying to engage multiple enemy cons, with the group getting kills and RTBing if I'm able. Now I'm not talking about 10 of my closest buddies swarming one guy. My ideal fight is me and five or six squaddies with me, going into a fight with 6 or more bad guys, trying to kill them all, and everybody getting home safe. It's rare such a thing occurs, we generally wind up either at the outside edge of a friendly horde, or the outside edge of an enemy horde.
I generally fly with survival in mind, which means I rarely get slow in the MA. My main rides are all models of the Corsair and the P47D models, but I often hop into other planes depending on my mood. Guys that think the only way to 'fight' is 1v1 dueling would classify my style as 'timid', but usually I'm just working the crowd trying to survive. Sometimes it results in me clubbing baby seals, sometimes it results in me getting mobbed and killed, usually it's somewhere in between.
Do you feel you are getting all you can out of the game?
It depends what context you mean that question in. I believe I get my $15 a month in entertainment from this for sure. Do I believe I'm as good as I can get? Not really. I believe I'm about as good as I can get with the level of commitment I have to improving.
From your score ( I know it is very subjective) it looks like you play different parts of the game, GV fighters buffs altho the buffs and GV look more like bringin troops in, but it also looks like your not showing any real improvement in any of the areas of the game. That's why I'm asking. Are you happy with what your getting out of the game?
I buff and GV very rarely, like you say, mostly the occasional resupply of a base or upping of a goon. I certainly have no skill or finesse in those areas, just not my cup of tea. Pretty much any buffing that shows up in my score as damage is preparation for FSO (another part of the game I love, in limited quantities).
My score pretty much reflects the fact that while I normally try to fly smart, I also have the tendency to be a bit overly aggressive and get into situations where I die. In the Main, I look for different kinds of fights depending on my mood. Sometimes if the enemy bar dar is not that huge, I'll go into the fight lower to work on my defense, if it's a full bardar I'll go in high and try to start from the top and work my way down. A large percentage of my deaths are because I started with the high guy and let him drag me down where more planes can reach me and bad things happened. Another main cause of death for me is trying to drag for a squaddie and misjudging my ability to dodge versus the enemy's ability to shoot. <g>
As a duelist, I am probably somewhere in the lower middle of the pack in the Main arena. Again, if I don't do something often I rust up badly in a short period of time. Because I fly mostly in the main, my 1v1 skills are pretty subpar. Among guys that sign up for dueling ladders and soforth, I'd probably rate bottom 10-20% or so. Again, I haven't put in the work, as while I do enjoy a good 1v1, I like flying crowd vs crowd more.
Do you look to get to be a better fight jock? Do you look to get better at dive bombing? Do you look to get better at tanks? It looks to me, and has been mentioned by many that a lot of the players that run in the horde do so because they want the protection that their lack of skill can not provide. I think running in a horde may also lead to players NOT learning to get better. Why would they have to, they have 30-40 of their closest friends to cover their back. Wiley, do you feel that running in a horde is slowing your learning in the game, or does it not even enter your mind because your happy play as you are?
It hasn't really struck me to focus on improving heavily. I'm always trying to get better, but I don't review the videos to see where I messed up, or scientifically analyze my tactics every time I fly. I just try to have some fun and fly smart, in that order. When the mood strikes me, I look a little harder at what I'm doing to try to improve, but generally speaking I'm just out looking for the type of fight I described above. The last couple months I've been divebombing a bit more, I've got a decent amount of finesse with rockets, bombing, it depends on the day.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but you do seem to fit the demographic that we are talking about here. I'd just like to here your point of view, like I said at the beginning, why run in a horde?
I wouldn't say I precisely fit that demographic. I also wouldn't say I'm 'in favor of hordes' except from the context of I like multi-on-multi engagements. I dislike being part of a horde with no significant opposition. When I fly, I typically look for the largest red bardar I can find and head for it at alt. Somewhat often there's a green horde headed that way and yes, I'm part of that horde until I rtb and look for a better fight. A couple of my squaddies like to stick with Rooks for whatever reason, so some nights I wind up not being able to find a decent fight when Bish/Knight numbers are low. I just live with that and try to look for the smaller fights when it's like that. Sometimes the only fight you can find without switching countries is a horde.
This is another thing, what changed and why don't we have squads like this any more? There are hundreds of squads in this game. Many are of a good size and could work a battle, or defend against one. Why don't you see more squad rivalries like we use to have? What changed? Personally I think the players looking for the quickest and easiest solution to grab land and AVOID combat. As the game has progressed along those lines the new players see "that's how it's done" and they continue with it.
I think the issue has many, many causes that boil down into relatively few simple behaviors.
(to be continued)
Wiley.
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Wiley, can we get you a coyote avatar please?
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Grizz- Never noticed I could upload to here, and have been too lazy to create a photobucket, there you go.
Fugitive-
What I tend to see happen with a typical horde, from whichever side it comes from, is a bunch of people in the same area head in a direction. Sometimes it's because someone said 'Hey, let's take that base.' sometimes it's just because the group happened to up there looking for a fight. They head toward the enemy base, or the enemy bardar if it exists. If there are enemy, the two fronts collide, and one side comes out on top. Those who enjoy fighting that just died on both sides reup, those who don't, go elsewhere looking for a fight. People are probably watching the bardar fairly close after they die to see if they're reupping into a meat grinder. Again, those who like to fight against long odds reup if they're shorthanded, those who don't go elsewhere.
The horde that's winning (let's call them country A) eventually presses over the other side's (country B) airbase, someone whacks the dar, and the vulching commences. If there are enough people who are so inclined, a counter-horde from country B sometimes up from a nearby base and grabs to come in high to deal with the vulchers. As the vulchers run out of ammo/fuel/get killed, country B usually winds up having the bigger numbers over the field at that moment. Depending on the commitment level of country A, the fight sometimes fizzles, sometimes gets really interesting as people reup and head back. There are also those who up from the capped field because that's where they find their fun. Multi-on-multi engagements, fun, kills, and excitement. Sometimes Country B presses back over Country A's airfield.
What a lot of people fail to realize, I think, is depending on where you come into the above story you can have a profoundly different view of what's happening there. This is why I think a lot of people feel that both of the other countries are full of skillless hordelings.
If you come in early and are in country B, 'Country A has upped a horde! The bastards!' If you're in country A and notice the fight after country A has had a lot of attrition and country B has started pressing back, you might see the bardar and go, 'Country B has upped a horde! The bastards!' If you come in at the right time and see two full bardars in between the two airbases, I myself am thinking, 'Great! A decent fight!'
Now, as to why people horde, I think a lot of the root cause has to do with chesspiece loyalty. I think the majority sticks with their chesspiece. Some think switching is 'cheating' because you have knowledge of what was going on in your country when you left. Some think the other countries are just plain morally inferior to their chesspiece for reasons I can't begin to understand. Either way, if you're sticking with one chesspiece, sometimes you're going to be outnumbering the other sides, and the only fight you can find will probably result in your side outnumbering the enemy. This contributes to hordes.
Another factor is, committing too much to defense with no offense or ineffective offense means you are slowly going to lose ground. Often, I notice the Rooks tend to approach the war with the 'Ever diminishing circle of base defense' tactic, which never works. How often do you see two countries attacking each others' undefended bases? At that point, it becomes a matter of which side is more efficient at capturing bases.
You very often see people grumbling about how the other side took 3 bases in the time it took us to take 1. If your offense is faster than the other side's, you gain ground using these tactics. Splitting your people into offense and defense slows down your forward progression, even though it also means you're losing ground slightly slower to the enemy, most people don't see this, IMO.
Another factor is, in an online game you can't really rely on people you don't know ingame to be inclined to help, or have the skills to help efficiently. Some don't understand how to work with you to let you help them, like when you go to clear a guy who's being mobbed and he turns into you so to get at the threats on his six, you'd have to dump your E and put yourself in danger where if he turned at 90 degrees to you you can come in, clip the guy behind him, and reset to do it again if anybody sticks around. Basically, you can't trust anyone's capabilities unless you know them. With the amount of people in game, it's just plain easier to stick with overwhelming force than to try to keep straight who on your side you can rely on.
The worst scenario is when your side is being pressed on one side by one country and your side is pressing the other country on the other side, which is pressing the first country. If your idea of fun is base defense with a chance of winning, no matter which side you're on, all you see is an insurmountable horde rolling your bases. Again, perception when you look at the map.
A lot of the old guard guys who've been playing since Air Warrior have a different mindset from the average person who plays these days. It used to be people with an interest in aviation played flight sims. The games came to be because people liked flight, not because the consumers were gamers. The gameplay was the most compelling thing for them, they'd fly in a scoreless arena with 2 bases, just to have fun shooting other people down, being shot down, and working on their ACM. If I hadn't been a poor student back in the day of hourly rate flight on early AW and WB, I'd probably be one of them.
Nowadays, it's far more common for people to find flight sims because they like games moreso than they have a deep interest in WWII history and ACM. For better or worse, that's the majority tendency, I think. And neither side is going to change the other's way of enjoying the game.
Simply put, the more recent people are mostly more goal oriented when it comes to a game. Their thinking is mostly something along the lines of, 'Ok, what's the objective? Win the war. Ok, how do we win the war? Taking bases. Ok, what is the easiest way to take bases? Crushingly superior numbers. Right, let's go.'
Same thing if they're into fighter v fighter. 'What's the objective? Kill enemy planes. Right then. 4x20mm, put pipper on target. pull trigger.'
The other thing about the newer people, I think most of them don't particularly care if they die, as long as the objective they've set for themselves is being accomplished, hence the HOing, and bomb and bailing. That is the logical extension of the 'it's just a game' mentality.
Myself, I'm somewhat in the middle, been playing flight sims since JET.exe on an 8088 computer, up through Red Baron 3D among others, but I also have played a lot of other video games. I have what some on here would call a passing interest in flight and history, but a bit moreso than the hardcore gamer mentality types.
And just to be clear, when I'm talking about 'newer players' I'm talking in the last 5 years or so, it's probably crept in. I had noticed a shift in the other game before I came here, and knew and talked with quite a few of the older guys who were still around.
Holy wall of text, Batman... Sorry folks.
Wiley.
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The answer is simple for me.
Because we don't have targets really important for few players.
In previous version, as i said, I flew vs v-field and factories, because there was a lunny little
possibility to take v-base and eny depended on factories too, and during those sorties i can
duel with few players that defended those bases.
Now every target on the grounds needs a lot of player and the air becomes quickly fully of planes - that is not
a bad thing nevertheless it is not balanced too much. Somebody can think that it depends on number of player into the arenas but this is not correct. It is so because the variety of ground small target is a bit poor.
I come back in AH because they 'fixed' the 'diabolic' town capture procedure - as i have predicted ...
I will enjoy if on the ground we could have small targets to take with the aid of few pilots,
linked for example with the eny system points - or something like that, for example less fuel for the enemy.
:salute
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Money talks.
B.S. walks.
Hope you got comfortable boots.
This right here is the problem.
For all the blow and bluster from this kid, he still won't go to the DA and beat up on a noob like me.
Poor BAR, destined to a life of hiding in the horde. Never to break free and fly like the eagle that he really is.
you must be that one guy in the bar who takes every argument thrown at him and settles it with his fists. either that or an eleven year-old kid.
this isn't about who is the "man" here, it is about the one who takes things in a mature manner, and you are seriously portraying yourself as either a little kid, or a seriously disgruntled person. You seriously need to take a step back and read what it is you are writing
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1. On your first point, you are correct it is a game. And with any GAME there is sportsmanship (or gamesmanship if you prefer the vernacular). How you play a game is directly relevant to the game itself and those that play it.
2. As your or teaching comments.... there is more to teaching that just NOT saying something is wrong. Why would you not teach your children that it is wrong to 'throw dynamite'? By your illustration, what you have taught is to not take any personal responsibility and just go some where else. You have let SOMEONE ELSE run you off from where you wanted to be. I encounter this everyday. People want safe communities, they want a drug and gang free neighborhood, but when authorities need information or assistance we get, "I don't want to get involved." Well, you can't have it both ways. Nothing in this life is free. You must pay some cost either fiscal or personal, but the cost must be paid by someone. Now am I really suggesting your confront every armed dynamite throwing lunatic? No, my point is rather than 'just go somewhere else' be a part of fixing the problem. Take some responsibility for the community in which you participate and correct things that are amiss.
3. To your sportsmanship remark.... I refer back to point 1. You were correct first when you said it is a game. This is NOT war simulation. If we played the game exactly as we do now, but changed the graphics to Mario's riding clouds and throwing mushrooms, would this still be a "War Simulation?" IRL, war means death and destruction. AH people do not really die. IRL, wars are fought with limited resources to include, money, guns, people, ships, planes, tanks, and food. When was the last time you sat in on an AH Budget planning session? When was the last time that you went to the hanger in AH and found it EMPTY? You were 100% correct when you said, "ITS A GAME". Lets call a duck a duck... AH is a game. There is nothing WAR about it. And, because it is a game, there is gamesmanship. We have all paid for the right to be here. That makes it a community. As a community, we set our own morals and standards. If you teach those standards, then the community thrives. Failure to teach standards turns us into mob and eventually the MOB will DIE OUT. (ie... no more AH)
4. You said you teach "HAVING FUN TRUMPS ALL". Really? Is that what we have become? A group of "I only care about my own personal instant gratification?" It is a game and it should be fun. Just like football is a game and should be fun. It would be fun for me to score a touchdown on every play. To that end, I have decided that everytime I am about to be tackled, I am going to pull out a gun and shoot the opposing player -- now I can score every play! Won't that be fun! Yes, that is an extreme example; but, the point is made. It is about fun, but it is not just about YOUR OWN satisfaction.
Clearly, you are set in your ways, and I don't expect anything I say here to make any major life altering decisions for you. But I would encourage you to think about what has been posted here. The attitudes you express go far beyond just being in AH. I would submit that they are not only unhealthy for AH, but can be an unhealthy life philosophy. Forget AH for a second. Take a stand. Don't let 'dynamite guy' force you to go somewhere else. If it is your pond to fish, then fish it. If 'dynamite guy' blows up all the fish in that pond, where are you going to fish next week? We all have a right to fish in the pond. The key is to NOT let one person take all the fish. We have to protect that pond so that we can all ALL continue to enjoy it. That takes responsibility and it takes action of some sort.
and, that brings us back to Fugi's original post.... why not teach new players and squads to break up the monster horde? Why not teach new players NOT to HO. How much more fun would they have if they learned long term skills rather than short term self-gratification? It is a matter of mindset NOT code changes.
With Respect, :salute
Jeff
:cheers:
i would like to respectfully disagree with some of the things you pointed out.
refering to the "dynamite guy", it looks to me as if you are implying that we simply take away his dynamite and don't let him fish in the pond anymore (correct me if i'm wrong). what we should rather do is point out that eventually the dynamite could blow up prematurely, meaning death. also tell him that the fish might get damaged by the blast, and he might not do it anymore, instead learn to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, and in return catch a fish that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.
on the topic of sportsmanship, i do believe it is needed in a game. i believe in a "fair fight". granted this is not always the case, as i always come across a 3 v 1 or a 5 v 1. however when i'm in a 1 v 1 dogfight with someone, i generally try to make it fair. for instance, if i shoot out someone's radiator, or control surfaces, i typically leave them alone, as they will soon be no threat to me or my comrades. or, if i get one of my control surfaces shot out, i don't run, as my foe shot me fair and square, so i keep fighting, because there is no actual threat to my life, and i will live to see another sortie. i avoid the HO, unless my foe opens up on me, in which case i fire back. if i get in a picking situation, i don't pick the guy who i can down in seconds, i pick the guy who will present a challenge to me (i.e Spit XVIs, P-51Ds).
THAT BEING SAID, if for instance i'm being chased by 4 or 5 cons, i'm going to ask my buddies to come help me out, and then i will fight a much more managable 1 or 2 v 1. i don't consider that being a bad sport, even though some will argue against that. in-game i risk my virtual life to save my wingmen, and i expect the same from them.
on the topic of having fun, i think you mistook what he intended to say. he and I teach our relatively young squad that the game is not about score or getting kills, but in fact it is about being able to virtually fly these birds, and fly with a sense of camraderie. what we are doing in this game is re-creating, in the best way possible, air combat durring WW2, which is very much a peice of our history. if we fly as friends, and as respectable players, we will have fun. it is not simply for personal satisfaction.
i agree completely with your statement that this game is in no way a simulation of war. i also agree that the way you play makes the game. i still believe the AH community is the best online gamming community there is, and if the community were anything like the people i have encountered on Xbox Live, i would have stopped subscribing a long time ago.
with regards,
Wildcat :salute
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damn ... not lunny? but FUNNY!
:salute
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i would like to respectfully disagree with some of the things you pointed out.
refering to the "dynamite guy", it looks to me as if you are implying that we simply take away his dynamite and don't let him fish in the pond anymore (correct me if i'm wrong). what we should rather do is point out that eventually the dynamite could blow up prematurely, meaning death. also tell him that the fish might get damaged by the blast, and he might not do it anymore, instead learn to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, and in return catch a fish that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.
But I think you're missing a crucial point. He is not interested in undamaged fish, he's not interested in learning to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, he's not interested in catching fish in a way that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.
He wants fish. Dynamite gets him fish with the least amount of effort possible. This is his desired outcome. He has what he wants. Anything else is irrelevant.
on the topic of sportsmanship, i do believe it is needed in a game.
And you are outnumbered in that belief at least 10 to 1 in an online game, IMO. Sportsmanship is a great idea for the other side, in most peoples' minds.
on the topic of having fun, i think you mistook what he intended to say. he and I teach our relatively young squad that the game is not about score or getting kills, but in fact it is about being able to virtually fly these birds, and fly with a sense of camraderie. what we are doing in this game is re-creating, in the best way possible, air combat durring WW2, which is very much a peice of our history. if we fly as friends, and as respectable players, we will have fun. it is not simply for personal satisfaction.
Yup, that's why you fly. A great deal of people in game have no interest in doing that. They want to win the war, or fly around in the plane that gives them the best chance of success however they fly and shoot at people until they run out of ammo. Their goals are not the same as yours, which results in vastly different gameplay from them.
Wiley.
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"however when i'm in a 1 v 1 dogfight with someone, i generally try to make it fair. for instance, if i shoot out someone's radiator, or control surfaces, i typically leave them alone, as they will soon be no threat to me or my comrades."
That is not sportsmanship, because you know that soon as possible the poor plane would be shoot down by 300 other cons . So please let finish it :roflo
:salute
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But I think you're missing a crucial point. He is not interested in undamaged fish, he's not interested in learning to fish in a way that won't disturb anyone, he's not interested in catching fish in a way that will satisfy him and make him feel accomplished.
He wants fish. Dynamite gets him fish with the least amount of effort possible. This is his desired outcome. He has what he wants. Anything else is irrelevant.
i agree to this, however i do believe some of the newer fishermen who try this out can be convinced to do it the way i perscribed, even though the older, more stubborn fishermen might continue to do it there way. if that is the case, i will simply wear ear plugs and continue to fish. i have the right to fish in the pond, and i also have the right to attempt to show people how to do it my way. if they don't like it, they have the right to ignore me.
simple as that, IMO
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"however when i'm in a 1 v 1 dogfight with someone, i generally try to make it fair. for instance, if i shoot out someone's radiator, or control surfaces, i typically leave them alone, as they will soon be no threat to me or my comrades."
That is not sportsmanship, because you know that soon as possible the poor plane would be shoot down by 300 other cons . So please let finish it :roflo
:salute
i see your point of view, but typically an aircraft in that state is going down anyways, and before anyone flames me for this i'm implying that both control surfaces, be it 2 elevators or 2 ailerons, are shot out, because i've won fights many times with an elevator or aileron missing.
but back on topic, i will tend to call off any other con who is chasing the poor defenseless bird, telling them that it is already down, because in all likely hood, i've still scored the most hits, and they won't get the kill
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Wiley, i don't know how long you have been playing this game and nothing i say is directed at you or anyone for that matter, but this Game was about Sportsmanship, and should be an emphasis again, but thats up to each individual person, to much of the game for many revolves around the importance of Kills© Rank© instead of just having fun and respecting other players, you see 2 or 3 friendlies on a Con, heck dont just dive in looking for a kill , you see a friendly with 3 cons on him, heck yea dive in ( that's what i do) try to save him who cares if i die i know im going to get a couple of them, planes are free, fun is 14.95 a month to me thou it's priceless :salute
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Wildcat1, i used to think about leaving certain injured planes alone, until i was flying a FW190-A8 half my right wing was shot off and i was still able to fly around ( wasnt easy thou) and pester fighters and kill one of three B24's coming into our CV after that i make sure there going down, might even have film of it I'll have to look
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Wildcat1, i used to think about leaving certain injured planes alone, until i was flying a FW190-A8 half my right wing was shot off and i was still able to fly around ( wasnt easy thou) and pester fighters and kill one of three B24's coming into our CV after that i make sure there going down, might even have film of it I'll have to look
:confused: :lol
i was mainly pertaining to loss of control surfaces, as it is exremely hard to right your plane and land (tho i've done it once in my Wildcat). also, in German and Russian in-line a/c engines, loss of the radiator means that the engine will most certainly quit in a minute or two, that's why i leave those planes alone as well
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Wiley, i don't know how long you have been playing this game and nothing i say is directed at you or anyone for that matter, but this Game was about Sportsmanship, and should be an emphasis again, but thats up to each individual person, to much of the game for many revolves around the importance of Kills© Rank© instead of just having fun and respecting other players, you see 2 or 3 friendlies on a Con, heck dont just dive in looking for a kill , you see a friendly with 3 cons on him, heck yea dive in ( that's what i do) try to save him who cares if i die i know im going to get a couple of them, planes are free, fun is 14.95 a month to me thou it's priceless :salute
Sportsmanship is great, I like it when I see it. However, welcoming it is one thing. Expecting it in an online game is folly. Understand when I'm talking about this stuff, I'm not talking about what I do in game for the most part. It's just observations I've seen playing a lot of online games, and online flight sims for around 3 years now.
I expect the worst possible behavior out of the other side, and I have my own set of rules for what's acceptable/unacceptable for myself. Sometimes enemy behavior influences that. If a guy tries a third attempted HO, or has just attempted HOs on every squaddie who's merged with him, it generally results in me HOing him if I'm in the wrong mood, sorry that's just how I feel. Also, if a guy is the last one remaining after his buddies were shot down after starting something where they had advantage, I have no trouble ganging him to death. To me, that's fair. When I'm with my squad, I play fairly hard, and expect no quarter from the other side.
Personally, I shoot people until they're missing a wing or tail, or until they explode. I've had too many wounded planes turn on me to let them go. I don't feel bad for that, I believe anything worth shooting is worth shooting a lot. One exception to this is if I go to bounce a smoker and see he's actually deadstick. I'll usually let that pass and break off, though it's bitten me in the backside once or twice where I went past what I thought was a deadstick plane and the guy restarted his engine and shot me.
Wiley.
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You can take a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.
anyone and everyone is goin to play exactly how they want to play and 10 years of text in this forum isint goin to change that fact.
I say either give up or go down ina raging inferno. But you know what? it aint my 14.95 so you choose your path and Ill choose mine.
Thanks for your rapt attention
Vudu15
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You can take a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.
anyone and everyone is goin to play exactly how they want to play and 10 years of text in this forum isint goin to change that fact.
I say either give up or go down ina raging inferno. But you know what? it aint my 14.95 so you choose your path and Ill choose mine.
Thanks for your rapt attention
Vudu15
And this sums up the entire thread!!!!!
You sir should get a medal!!!!!
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You can take a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.
True, but I think all that Fugitive is on about is actually taking them to the water. Some will drink, some won't. Some will defecate in the pool and call you a noob while laughing about having ruined the pool. At least it's showing them the options and possibilities, and I have no problem with that. I would just put the chance of success of changing most peoples' minds at about 0.01% or so.
Perhaps I'm just jaded, but based on what I've seen, people who start out with no concept of fair play rarely if ever seem to develop it over time.
Wiley.
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Perhaps I'm just jaded, but based on what I've seen, people who start out with no concept of fair play rarely if ever seem to develop it over time.
I prefer to think of behavior in an economic sense. Aces High is, after all, a zero-sum game - if you win, it means the other guy lost. Because of that, you'll see behavior creep toward whatever results in the greatest success - killing the other guy while not dying yourself. When someone acts "chivalrous," it puts him at a disadvantage to anyone who behaves just slightly more dastardly. Let's say, for example, that one guy refuses to HO. That's great, but this puts him at a distinct tactical disadvantage to anyone who willingly HOs, and smart (or dastardly) players will simply face shoot that player until he dies.
Someone else comes along who is willing to HO, and he brings a buddy with him. Now he has the advantage. This goes on and on, with players adopting more cutthroat and less "sportsmanlike" behavior where it increases the odds of killing without dying. That's basic economics, and ultimately leads to the sort of chaotic, unsportsmanlike mess you find in the MA most of the time. This may or may not be a bad thing given your point of view.
In the absence of rules - and in AH there really aren't many rules governing behavior beyond killshooter - this kind of cutthroat behavior flourishes. Imagine a basketball game without refs, where players figure out that they can run or shove with impunity. If the players don't really know each other, and there aren't any long term consequences to behaving that way, they'll probably adopt whatever tactics give them an advantage. AH, being a fairly anonymous endeavor, reflects that.
TLDR: Without enforceable rules, mayhem becomes the norm. Revel in it or hate it, but that's just the way it goes.
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Looks like Oldman was the only one that may have seen some humor in my old timey duel challenge.
The rest of you nancies are waaaaay too high strung.
THAT'S what's wrong with this game.
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Why the Hordes?.......... I know the reason!
They are FUN.
They were fun airwarrior.
They was fun in Warbirds.
Odds are they was fun in Fighter Ace 3.
Many of the players here AH are playing war and war is about numbers!
Remember....
"God is on the side of the biggest battalions." Napoleon
And I when I see posts in the forums about 1 vs 1's, fair fights, sportsmanship, it is a game etc. etc. etc...... I always think of this....
"To the meaningless French idealisms, of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, we present the German realities of Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery." -Bernhard von Bulow
Cav
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The rest of you nancies are waaaaay too high strung.
My name is NOT Nancy!!!!!
It's ALICE! :D
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In the absence of rules - and in AH there really aren't many rules governing behavior beyond killshooter - this kind of cutthroat behavior flourishes. Imagine a basketball game without refs, where players figure out that they can run or shove with impunity. If the players don't really know each other, and there aren't any long term consequences to behaving that way, they'll probably adopt whatever tactics give them an advantage. AH, being a fairly anonymous endeavor, reflects that.
TLDR: Without enforceable rules, mayhem becomes the norm. Revel in it or hate it, but that's just the way it goes.
One of the best observations yet.
- oldman (when you coming back Todd?)
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Looks like Oldman was the only one that may have seen some humor in my old timey duel challenge.
The rest of you nancies are waaaaay too high strung.
THAT'S what's wrong with this game.
if you cleared this up at the beginning maybe my replies and others replies wouldnt have been so harsh. what you type may be mistaken on a forum for a harsher tone. If you are truthfully saying you meant to anger or mockery in your posts then why did you not correct me when i believed that was what it was? :aok
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if you cleared this up at the beginning maybe my replies and others replies wouldnt have been so harsh. what you type may be mistaken on a forum for a harsher tone. If you are truthfully saying you meant to anger or mockery in your posts then why did you not correct me when i believed that was what it was? :aok
I was wondering how long it would take you to figure it out.
I started out using the :rofl and :neener: emoticons. Unfortunately, you didn't pick up on the sarcasm and started getting lippy with me.
So I figured I'd just go ahead and drag you behind the truck for awhile.
Edit: I guess what I was trying to do was make a point about how many of you take this game and yourselves far too seriously.
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I was wondering how long it would take you to figure it out.
I started out using the :rofl and :neener: emoticons. Unfortunately, you didn't pick up on the sarcasm and started getting lippy with me.
So I figured I'd just go ahead and drag you behind the truck for awhile.
Edit: I guess what I was trying to do was make a point about how many of you take this game and yourselves far too seriously.
:lol oops.
sorry man, i guess i'm one of them litteral thinkers :rolleyes:
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WOW !!!! Wiley, I asked a question, but didn't think it would take a book to answer it !!! :devil
Thank-you for a well thought out are articulated answer. The reason I thought you were in the demographic was back HERE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,303587.msg3899318.html#msg3899318) you seem to be defending the horde. I agree with a lot of what you said, on the other hand one thing I do want to say is that most of the hordes I see start out as a mission and like a few others said stragglers join up to "help".
I agree with what you said about the type of players today as compared to us old timers. I think you have your hand on the pulse of the game pretty well. I think that there is a hope that players can change and game play can get better. I have seen a number of players who where very big on running with the horde and now you see them running mission without hordes.
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I was wondering how long it would take you to figure it out.
I started out using the :rofl and :neener: emoticons. Unfortunately, you didn't pick up on the sarcasm and started getting lippy with me.
So I figured I'd just go ahead and drag you behind the truck for awhile.
Edit: I guess what I was trying to do was make a point about how many of you take this game and yourselves far too seriously.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/dichotomy/Demotivational/WhySoSerious.jpg)
:D
:bolt:
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:rofl
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Why the Hordes?.......... I know the reason!
They are FUN.
They were fun airwarrior.
They was fun in Warbirds.
Odds are they was fun in Fighter Ace 3.
Many of the players here AH are playing war and war is about numbers!
Remember....
"God is on the side of the biggest battalions." Napoleon
And I when I see posts in the forums about 1 vs 1's, fair fights, sportsmanship, it is a game etc. etc. etc...... I always think of this....
"To the meaningless French idealisms, of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, we present the German realities of Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery." -Bernhard von Bulow
Cav
I sure hope you are kidding. Last I checked war is about really dying too. Don't see much of that in AH.
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yes it is a game, like chess and anyone who does not want to get better....well whatever no skin off my back, this is not a two person game its a multi player game and with that comes many differant idea's on what is the 'proper' way of playing, to me in life I am Honor bound in all that I am and do so it is second nature to be that way in game, I personaly feel the world does not think the way I do and this topic touches on that subject, its the 'me' crowd that has infested the world, some say the 'xbox' generation, again though whatever people are gonna do and act how they want and there is nothing anyone can do or say about it, unless they out right hack the game then and only then will the powers that be have a say in it, many say the game is going down hill, thats just out right not true, theres always been hords and ganging and vulching and Hoing, and there will always be those that apose that way and are more Honor bound, but to try and force others to play your way is wrong.
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I love reading these "Horde" threads.
I keep hearing about how it used to be and how it has changed. In the 3+ years I have been playing, I have really not seen any change in game play. I hear the old timers complain about everything, but when you do a simple search you find something like this;
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,7332.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,7332.0.html)
Even back in 2001 they were complaining about ganging and hordes and such.
The only thing I have seen changed is the names and dates.
MY Opinion
Fred
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because its fun to fly with other people?
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because its fun to fly with other people?
+1
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Even back in 2001 they were complaining about ganging and hordes and such.
The only thing I have seen changed is the names and dates.
You forgot the threads are also much longer these days. :D
If something bugs you ingame, you have a big tendency to notice it every time it happens, which just has a snowball effect. So many of the things that tick people off result from counting the hits and ignoring the misses, IMO. Hordes bug people, so they notice every time a horde forms, so hordes bug them more, so they notice every time a horde forms, etc etc. Same with HO's, same with gangbangs, ENY, caps, or anything else that ticks people off.
Wiley.
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We were having some wickedly fun hordes the other day. BAR was throwing up things like JU-87 and B-25H hordes, and I honestly can say it's that kind of stuff that makes the game so fun. Huge number of players working together to attack things.
The best part was, I don't think we ever took a base... lol
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Again we run into a definition problem. To me, a horde is an overwhelming force the rolls bases. The missions Sectornine50 mention are NOT hordes. They are groups that while some times over sized have no other purpose than fun. Us SAPPers call them "candy mountain" mission (and no I will not post the link to the Charlie and the candy mountain video!). Those missions don't do any damage, and encourage combat only if just to see a bunch of guys form up a drop torpedoes on a town ( don't ask)
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We were having some wickedly fun hordes the other day. BAR was throwing up things like JU-87 and B-25H hordes, and I honestly can say it's that kind of stuff that makes the game so fun. Huge number of players working together to attack things.
The best part was, I don't think we ever took a base... lol
yes that was great fun being one of the defenders, that style of attacking gameplay if fun, we knew you were coming and so on, I honestly can't remember either if they took it but defending was fun that night, i think what alot of people are Referring to as the Horde© is this, Very large group of low skilled pilots who feel safer in extremely large numbers, they arrive on target 15k+ in there typical fast planes all dive in with no real assigned targets, kill one or two people then once any kind of threat shows up they scamper off, you try to chase them down but get bored and turn back, then some other place on the map will flash and its the same rinse and repeat.
What bar did was Epic Fun for both sides and looking forward to his next one :aok
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The rooks are SLOWLY waking up to the reality that porking ords and troops--WORKS.
When we work as a team to pork our enemy's ability to wage a horde war--it WORKS.
If you do not enjoy being horded and losing bases, pork--it WORKS.
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This isn't "War". :aok
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This isn't "War". :aok
No, but ROX has a point, and war strategies have merit. There have been numerous times that a base of ours has been horded, and the fix to the problem was a counter-attack from another base. The horde quickly dissipated due to A) them having a hard time getting out of that base w/ our CAP and B) losing ordinance makes taking a base less practical.
If you ask me, the horde is the easiest thing to defend, if you do it indirectly. Hordes put a lot of resources on the attack, and don't leave much to defend, even the base they just left.
I don't know if any of you play RTS games, but the counter-attack is probably one of the most potent maneuvers you can do in those games, and I think it carries over in the same way to AH.
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I never disputed the ordnance porking. I was specific in my previous post.
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I never disputed the ordnance porking. I was specific in my previous post.
Not that specific. You didn't give any context, the only thing I could assume you were talking about was the previous post.
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If I disputed "porking" the word would have been included/used. However since it wasn't the object of the post, it wasn't needed.
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I don't know if any of you play RTS games, but the counter-attack is probably one of the most potent maneuvers you can do in those games, and I think it carries over in the same way to AH.
Y'know, I'd never put it in as many words in my head but you're dead on. It can be looked at like an RTS, except for the fact that the unit AI is somewhat unreliable and unpredictable. :devil
As for it not being war, why is it a lot of the 'it's just a game' crowd use this as one of their main talking points, yet get bent out of shape when someone HO's/picks/vulches? It's just a game, a HO costs you nothing, you get a bright shiny plane to up again immediately. Why not do it? If you're flying a bomber, why not bail after all your bombs have been dropped, it's just a game right? In fact, why even bother to RTB ever? Fly and kill til you're out of fuel and ammo, then auger. There's no reason not to right? It's just a game.
Nobody can expect everybody's goals ingame to be the same as theirs. You've got everything from what I've described above, to people who do absolutely everything in their power to survive to RTB. If it's possible in game, people do it. The variety of styles results in unpredictable battles, which makes it a lot more fun than if everybody played one way. Embrace diversity, people. C'mon, who's up for a round of kum-ba-ya?
Wiley.
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If I disputed "porking" the word would have been included/used. However since it wasn't the object of the post, it wasn't needed.
I object to your use of the word "porking" and it's implied negative connotation. :D
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If I get vultched or picked, it's my fault.
It takes two to HO.
I also don't bring in game events to the BBS.
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I also don't bring in game events to the BBS.
Word to that! :aok
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If I get vultched or picked, it's my fault.
It takes two to HO.
I also don't bring in game events to the BBS.
...But treating it like it's war, trying to survive, and doing everything possible to win is the wrong way to play? Why?
Wiley.
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You guys can attempt to try and play the semantics game all day long.
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No one is playing semantics, it's just that no one has any idea what your argument is exactly.
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Mash, I used to think it took two to HO but that is not correct, here me out...how many times have you been engaged and the nme cons keep trying to face shoot straight line no wavering just come in firing with no ACM? I would say more then 80% of the engagements I have in the mains are exactly that, no matter how many cons are attacking me....so each one of those type 'style' (used very loosly) is a HO. So I have changed my thoughts on the matter, it does not take two to HO, just one clueless idiot......or a horde of em :-)
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Mash, I used to think it took two to HO but that is not correct, here me out...how many times have you been engaged and the nme cons keep trying to face shoot straight line no wavering just come in firing with no ACM? I would say more then 80% of the engagements I have in the mains are exactly that, no matter how many cons are attacking me....so each one of those type 'style' (used very loosly) is a HO. So I have changed my thoughts on the matter, it does not take two to HO, just one clueless idiot......or a horde of em :-)
I've seen you do your thing in a twisty plane from the other side, Ink. Trying to bounce you it often results in a front-quarter shot because you're maneuvering so hard. Between the time I've decided to commit to an attack pass until I get to you, you've often done at least one complete circle. <g> I'm not surprised you get HOed a lot.
Wiley.
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We are starting to get away from the topic here. Karaya's point was that as a player he doesn't want to HAVE TO spend his time porking. His time here is for fun, not to run down a laundry list of this to do BEFORE he can have fun.
The point of the OP was just to get opinions on hordes and why they occur. Bmwgs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,303587.msg3901496.html#msg3901496) was very helpful to post and give us a ling to a gangbang complaints from a player who had just switched of to ACES from a "relaxed realizium" game AWIII :rolleyes: While interesting to read the frustrations of someone trying to make the transition from that game to this one, it has nothing to do with hordes.
To me it looks like first of all "most" of you that commented stayed on topic and kept a cool head and for that I thank you all. Secondly hording seems to be more of a social act following the safety in numbers deal. I don't buy the "I just want to fly with friends crap" as when 40 guys are in a group you couldn't name 10 of them at any given moment. The hordes I think are contributing to the decline in player skill, why learn to play better when you have 30-40 of your closest friends to watch your back.
Can the hording be stopped? Well I would hope so, but I doubt it :D Sure Hitech could put in zone limits to cut back the numbers of planes available, or maybe something that automatically increases the number of troops to capture a base that is tied to the number of attackers with-in the dar circle of the base being attacked. Maybe some other incentive to to get players to work at getting better. On the other hand, the community could work to try and cut back on the numbers of their forces. More communication between squads... "We'll hit this base, you guys hit that one!". Leaders actually LEAD a mission instead of "Unleashing das HORDE!" to flatten everything.
While in WoW it may be a good idea to team up with 30-40 of your closest friends to hit the "Big Boss" it doesn't work as well in this game because the "big boss" your trying to roll over are other players here just trying to have fun as well. I fear that if the hordes continue it could lead to more people quitting, or not signing up and were will that lead the game? Just something to think about.
Thanks again for a great discussion! :aok
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The only way to get rid of hordes would be to remove missions (Since that's where most come from).
Removing missions would be removing a lot of organization.
Removing organization would remove teamwork.
I hate to say it guys... But hordes are a form teamwork, no matter how you cut it. It just sucks when one team can get that many people together when the other cannot. But like many have said, it's not impossible to defend or at least slow down.
One thing that I'm fairly confused by is the people who are worried about the hordes are the ones who say that base-taking doesn't matter, and that fighting is the point of the game. So, why are they worried about the other team taking their bases because those other people like doing so? I don't understand why people who don't care don't completely ignore the hordes and keep on fighting elsewhere.
The people who should be worried about hordes are the ones who want to win the war, however most of those people do something to counter the mass attacks, and they seem to have fun. There is no reason to throw yourself into a horde if you are just going to come on the forum and complain about it (not to say that the OP is complaining, just a generality).
Those people are clearly having fun, and letting them ruin your fun is fruitless, and quite frankly a waste of your time. This is a Massively Multiplayer Online game. Things are massive with multiple people online doing the same thing. Definition of a horde. MMO is code for horde, and it happens in every single MMO. The only difference: in other MMO's, people understand that it's how human nature works, and use tactics to counter it.
I'll take EVE Online as an example. I've spent some time in this game, but recently stopped playing just because I simply got bored. It became a bit of a grind and the same thing day in and day out, not worth my time. Anyway, combat in that game is a similar concept as this one. Sometimes you find 1v1's, sometimes you start a 1v1 and friends show up and "pick" you. Sometimes you just happen to be a victim of a roaming "horde" of people patrolling low and null-sec. At least in this game, you don't have to buy a new plane. But I'll tell you what, if you are informed of a horde in a certain system, you sure as hell don't go headlong into it by yourself. You go around, and if you have a big enough group, you form an attack from the rear. Funny thing is, when you go on the EVE Online forums, if someone were to whine about a roaming horde, they would get laughed right out. People know the risks of going certain places, hell we even have more warning systems to tell us about a horde coming than real life pilots did.
Basically what I am saying is, I don't think hordes are a sign of weakness, I think they are a show of human nature. To change hording in game, you'd have to change people outside of it (and I think we've had a few years of evolution that's made us this way).
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Complaining that people play together (no matter how big or small the group) in an MMOG is absurd. That will always be my opinion. I personally like diving into a group of 20 bad guys and seeing how many I can take with me. This is the only game I've ever seen where people complain/whine about this topic.
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wiley~made me laugh, good discription. :-)
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Complaining that people play together (no matter how big or small the group) in an MMOG is absurd. That will always be my opinion. I personally like diving into a group of 20 bad guys and seeing how many I can take with me. This is the only game I've ever seen where people complain/whine about this topic.
Actually, you'll see the opposite side of the argument in other more traditional MMO games. In most MMO games, it's the "hord" so to speak that bemoans the "casual" or "solo" player because these guys don't want to or don't have the time to group so they are always put down with comments like "why play solo in a multiplayer game!" or "there is no solo in multiplayer" and other inane comments.
But ultimately as pointed out by you and others, the "hord" has always been a part of these games and always will and nothing short of nerfing the game to oblivion is going to stop this practice. You can search the old AW and Warbirds forums and I'm sure you'll find just as many threads about the "evil hord" as you do in the AH forums.
The hords didn't stop be from playing AW, WB and they won't keep me from playing AH.
ack-ack
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You guys have spent way too much time thinking about this one when there is an easy conclusion to it all, its simple, its exactly what small fry do when the big scary sharks are around, they know they dont have a chance outside the bait ball so they do whats easiest and safe, stay in the comfort of the group and watch as their peers get picked off one by one and swear they sacrificed themself for the mishun and not due to lack of any skill or effort.
Most will grow out of it over time, but the cycle continues as long as there is an excuse of not developing themselves to fly better than before, the path of least resistance prevails.
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Not a fair conclusion. I fly alone, with my squad, and with missions. Not because I'm afraid of your big mean cartoon airplane, but because it's flipping fun. Actually, I'm going to horde all night tonight in Spit 16's just to watch tears stream down 200's cheeks. Well... no probably not, I'd miss my Bravo too much. This game is so much more fun when you play with others that are having fun, hopefully 40 or 50 of em. On that note, see ya all in game. :salute
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HUmans are gregarious,we get in the game when we can to have some fun together,to fly with people we know,we run missions we take bases,we fight..One cannot change human nature,even in a game..
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One thing that I'm fairly confused by is the people who are worried about the hordes are the ones who say that base-taking doesn't matter, and that fighting is the point of the game. So, why are they worried about the other team taking their bases because those other people like doing so? I don't understand why people who don't care don't completely ignore the hordes and keep on fighting elsewhere.
The reason "I" don't like hordes is I hate fighting 5 guys and have 3 more jump in on me. Look for another fight, not too likely, your either in a horde, or fighting a horde. Rarely do you find a small fight off to one side. When I do I have as much fun as possible and enjoy it as long as I can because I know it will disappear and then I will be spending my time looking for another little fight.
a question SectorNine50, how old are you and how long have you played this game? Just curious.
HUmans are gregarious,we get in the game when we can to have some fun together,to fly with people we know,we run missions we take bases,we fight..One cannot change human nature,even in a game..
All that is fine, and not at all what I'm talking about. I'm only talking about the hordes. Personally I just can"t see what is fun about being the 12th guy in on ammo, or fuel. That's why I ask, what is fun about it?
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I am 22 and have been playing for... 4 years almost exactly I think? I started in early '07 sometime, I believe.
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The only way to get rid of hordes would be to remove missions (Since that's where most come from).
I can't disagree more. IMO, most of the people you find in the center of such things log in, look at the map, and gravitate to the largest friendly blob like moths to a light, at which time they can circle a base with 15 like-minded types, (not having to worry about being a target) to mebbe shoot the guy who keeps upping in the LA7. NOT being in the middle of a huge group of people is a foreign concept to them, and one that prevents their skill-set from ever moving beyond ho'ing wounded, outnumbered planes, and complaining about the resultant 'rams'
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I am 22 and have been playing for... 4 years almost exactly I think? I started in early '07 sometime, I believe.
OK so your the same age as my youngest son. You were brought up in "video games". I bought my first video game about the time you were born (Legend of Zelda). Your out look on life differs a lot from mine. A lot of your background, sense of fair play, and just core personality was heavily influenced by video games. Whether you played them alot or not it was a major focus in your live. Kids at school talked about them, TV was flooded with commercials about them. When you did get to play I'm sure you were totally immersed in them....how many times did you tell your mother that you have to reach a "save spot" before you could shut it down? :devil
Everyone will admit that a game world is very impersonal. The "hide behind the screen" phrase comes to mind. The interactions you had in the games allowed poor behavior, or poor sportsmanship/gamesmanship because there were no consequences. That's what I see happening with the hordes. People don't care about those they are trampling as long as THEY are having fun, after all it was no big deal squashing mushrooms in Mario, or hitting the old woman in the mountain with your sword in Zelda. So that younger generation that now makes up the majority of players (only guessing but I'd bet I'm right) is now enforcing there sense of game play into the arenas. This is why I don't think the hordes will go away.
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No one is playing semantics, it's just that no one has any idea what your argument is exactly.
I'm not even arguing. It's really simple, you think you know what I'm typing. When in fact before you've even hit the Reply Button, you're mistaken.
Fugi, Ink, and others know exactly what I typed and what I meant by it. You on the other hand, have failed at even "guessing the correct answer".
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I agree, there are a lot out there that have one of those internet attitudes, where they "hide behind the name." I can't say I agree that a horde is a good example of that, but I know the type and what you mean. I hope you don't think I'm defending this position only because I'm hiding behind a name, because I'd say any of this to anyone face-to-face. Plus, I really like my "name", and I don't want it to have a bad connotation among the community since I'd like to play this game and have fun for a while.
In my case, it's not that I don't care if others aren't having fun, it's just that it gets hard to sympathize that people don't take their fun into their own hands. I really don't care if hording existed or not, I'm getting sick of everyone squeaking and moaning about how this great game is going downhill. All I see now days are threads about how everyone else is ruining the game, and that everyone else should stop doing what they are doing, and I just want to absolutely scream at them. I get this feeling that some people think that since they have been in the game for 'X' amount of years, that they have some clout as to what the "code of honor" of this game is.
This game has grown, a LOT. Even since I've been playing. This changes the dynamic of the game; there are more people in-game doing things together and alone. Most people seem to be fine with the changes, they adapt and continue to have fun. It seems that there are some out there who refuse to do so, they miss the days of everyone knowing everyone on a personal level and people started fights 1v1 and finished fights 1v1. I'm not saying they shouldn't miss them, but they need to figure out what's wrong and how to fix it for themselves, not for everyone else. Sure, if you have an idea as to how to fix a problem with the game, throw up something in the wishlist. Posting about problems with human nature and gameplay are fruitless, and really give the community and forums a negative feeling.
I realize I'm typing a lot, so I'll wrap this up. I've had more fun recently with this game than ever in the past, basically because I've stopped letting things get to me. Everything has a counter-attack, and nothing "ruins gameplay," except for yourself. This game is innately a fun game for those interested in the theme, it's one of a kind, and the developers are clearly brilliant (it actually amazes me how much they are part of the community, that is second-to-none in video games now days). If this community would relax a little bit, I think things would be much, much better... Alas, human nature strikes again.
-Justin Wiley
aka "Sector95"
P.S. Mash, I was never being rude to you. A simple clarification would have been nice, and that's all that was needed.
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I don't understand anyuthing written here by anyone and I blame you all!! :old:
Get off my lawn!!! :mad:
:salute
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:old:
Amazing. Horde whines still exist? Should just regurg the original "horde" post from umm...1999 or 2000? Been so so long.
Gotta luv it. Where's my P51 parked at?
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OK so your the same age as my youngest son. You were brought up in "video games". I bought my first video game about the time you were born (Legend of Zelda). Your out look on life differs a lot from mine.
You make a lot of assumptions about people based on very little information - based mostly on your prejudices.
(FYI, the first video game I played was "Pong," and it seemed AMAZINGLY high tech at the time. That was in the early 70s, before they had consoles to play even Pong on your TV. When I got an Atari 2600, which wasn't called the 2600 yet, it felt like being transported to the bridge of the starship Enterprise. I guess their Jet Fighter (on the tank cartridge) was the first air combat video game I played.) :airplane:
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OK Crash, I understand what your saying. Are you saying that is how it happens when your squad runs?
Not usually - I'm saying that's how it happens if there's a horde that my squad is a part of. But contrary to a lot of the whining you hear on the forum, most of the time we have 6 to 12 people with maybe a few folks flying along with us, not a massive horde of 30+.
So the question Crash is do your mission leaders point out all of the mission details or do they say flatten the town and so and so bring troops?
Depends on the situation and the number of people coming along, but usually it's the former. However, like I said, the one thing the mission planner has the least control over is how many people show up, and if 30 people show up, most of whom aren't used to flying missions with us (and vice versa), exercising tight tactical control over a mob like that becomes close to impossible.
What I'm trying to get at is that I think hordes are a result of the mindset of the people who join, not the result of a specific plan on the part of a mission planner/leader. There's really no way for a misison planner to plan on having 30-40 people show up, and once they do, there's little opportunity to get fancy with strategy. The sort of planning and operations you describe are something that develop over the course of a few hours or an evening, and while the mob may stay together that long, the individual horizon of any of its members is much shorter than that. The horde just isn't that cohesive; it's a mob, not a tactical unit.
One thing I've noticed is that when a horde does assemble, posting a mission is about the only way it's practical to direct its activities once the initial base is taken. You can say, "Okay, let's start porking troops/ords/dar at X, Y, and Z," or "let's move on A## rather than that useless VBase," but the only people who are liekly to listen are the core who are members of the squad or others used to flying with us regularly. Everyone else pretty much ignores it and does whatever they want to do - the horde will tend to stay glommed together, but its next target becomes random (or the path of least resistance). Likewise with trying to tell people NOT to pork a base we're attacking - once the mob gets big enough, it'll do what it feels like. However, posting a mission and specifying a target is a bit more likely to get the members of the horde to fall in and cooperate to that limited extent. It's like any mob in any aspect of human society - the collective IQ is much lower than the individual IQs of the members. But in this situation the guy posting missions isn't so much keeping the horde together as nudging it toward a more productive course of action.
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I agree, there are a lot out there that have one of those internet attitudes, where they "hide behind the name." I can't say I agree that a horde is a good example of that, but I know the type and what you mean. I hope you don't think I'm defending this position only because I'm hiding behind a name, because I'd say any of this to anyone face-to-face. Plus, I really like my "name", and I don't want it to have a bad connotation among the community since I'd like to play this game and have fun for a while.
In my case, it's not that I don't care if others aren't having fun, it's just that it gets hard to sympathize that people don't take their fun into their own hands. I really don't care if hording existed or not, I'm getting sick of everyone squeaking and moaning about how this great game is going downhill. All I see now days are threads about how everyone else is ruining the game, and that everyone else should stop doing what they are doing, and I just want to absolutely scream at them. I get this feeling that some people think that since they have been in the game for 'X' amount of years, that they have some clout as to what the "code of honor" of this game is.
This game has grown, a LOT. Even since I've been playing. This changes the dynamic of the game; there are more people in-game doing things together and alone. Most people seem to be fine with the changes, they adapt and continue to have fun. It seems that there are some out there who refuse to do so, they miss the days of everyone knowing everyone on a personal level and people started fights 1v1 and finished fights 1v1. I'm not saying they shouldn't miss them, but they need to figure out what's wrong and how to fix it for themselves, not for everyone else. Sure, if you have an idea as to how to fix a problem with the game, throw up something in the wishlist. Posting about problems with human nature and gameplay are fruitless, and really give the community and forums a negative feeling.
I realize I'm typing a lot, so I'll wrap this up. I've had more fun recently with this game than ever in the past, basically because I've stopped letting things get to me. Everything has a counter-attack, and nothing "ruins gameplay," except for yourself. This game is innately a fun game for those interested in the theme, it's one of a kind, and the developers are clearly brilliant (it actually amazes me how much they are part of the community, that is second-to-none in video games now days). If this community would relax a little bit, I think things would be much, much better... Alas, human nature strikes again.-Justin Wiley
aka "Sector95"
P.S. Mash, I was never being rude to you. A simple clarification would have been nice, and that's all that was needed.
Excellent job sir :salute well done, obviously because I agree with you.
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What I'm trying to get at is that I think hordes are a result of the mindset of the people who join, not the result of a specific plan on the part of a mission planner/leader. There's really no way for a misison planner to plan on having 30-40 people show up, and once they do, there's little opportunity to get fancy with strategy. The sort of planning and operations you describe are something that develop over the course of a few hours or an evening, and while the mob may stay together that long, the individual horizon of any of its members is much shorter than that. The horde just isn't that cohesive; it's a mob, not a tactical unit
I agree 100% with you on how a horde forms, but I think a leader can control the horde as he sees one forming. If you post a mission for you squad (10 guys) and the leader sees 25 join he could then change his plan to mix in the new guys he doesn't know with guys he does know to make 2 forces to attack 2 bases. That is where I think the community could help knock back the hordes a bit
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With the 50% town down and flag change we are just starting to see missions as a fun past time again. The missions are not very delicate but, at least we are seeing missions and they are working. Mission evolution seems to be based on what works to achive the goal and make the group happy enough to join the next one. That name brand trust factor like the Free Birds used to have.
If you split your mission and it's successful, you will be exaserbating the hoard by making area defenders have to come from farther away due to your sencondary assault either pulling defenders elswhere or it removing the ability to use a nearby base. And if this works most of the time, you get a reputation for good missions and more players join up to subsiquent endevors because successfull missions mean a low probability of getting killed with a target vulching rich environment as a perk.
So eventualy where you had a single hoard from your missions you now have the capacity for two hoards due to your success at strategy. I watched this happen with the Free Birds and other squads back in the days. The solution you are dancing around sounds like a formalised set of mission rules should be imposed on the arenas like the DA 1v1 dueling rules. Otherwise a successful mission leader breeds hoards of followers who want to win. Not play by an ethstetic sense of the greater AH zeitgeist.
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These tweaks HT have been putting into place make for a fascinating study of human behavior...we have a sociology class every night
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The front lines are stagnant due to the map changes recently implemented..THIS is only going to make hordes worse...I think people jhave nothing better to do than to just fly together..Its one giant furball now anyway...With any base-taking being A MOOT POINT,as the base will be someone elses within 24 hours..
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Well if some enterprising leader would step up and start a mission, say 12 guys to grab a base and succeed. The next mission most likely garner more support. If that leader was a real good leader he could use that larger force to take two bases at a time. Again, with his success at leadership his force would again increase allowing him to take 4 maybe 5 bases at once. A strong leader with a determined force spread across the front could easily win the war in a single night.
Just saying :D
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Well if some enterprising leader would step up and start a mission, say 12 guys to grab a base and succeed.
Perhaps you could switch to Bish for awhile and show us how it's done. :D
If that leader was a real good leader he could use that larger force to take two bases at a time.
I've seen many a mission launch with a 2 base objective. Happens all the time. Not always successful, of course, but ...
There are also many single base missions with secondary and tertiary targets, be it ord porking, dar busting, fighter or buff interjection from adjacent fields. The point is, it's not for lack of planning on the mission planner's part to utilize an attempt to maximize one's forces. You aren't asking for anything new here that hasn't, or doesn't, get regularly implemented.
A strong leader with a determined force spread across the front could easily win the war in a single night.
Where does one buy these rose colored glasses? Mine are decidedly jaded, err, faded. :old:
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A strong leader with a determined force spread across the front could easily win the war in a single night.
One flaw in this statement is whether the volunteers are going to do what the leader asks. Even then, there is a requirement for competence. I've been in AH for a while now, and I still have only a 10% chance of hitting building with a jabo.
Last night, there was a full green dar bar horde at A72(?) and most were there just to vulch. Whiite flag up, but the base was not captured. Second point: hordes are not monoliths. Rarely is there a singular focus.
Hordes happen. Personally, I head for the biggest red dar bar. Hordes can be fun.
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The Pigs had what I call critical Pig Mass last night with over 12+ of us logged in. We had every armchair general on the Knights telling us what we should be doing. We helped with a couple of field takes, but eventually our ADHD set in again and we began goofing off and having fun. Flying 35+ ENY plane sweeps, furballing, bombing, and other nefarious activities with no real goal in mind. Is'nt that what it is all about? Why pile into the large group of fellas with another 12+ pilots? We were having fun, and did not need to add to the fairly large group that was already assembled. Nothing like landing 16 assists! :rofl
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Hordes are an avoidable nuicance, less avoidable if they happen to be directly hindering the only task/objective you want to do, but as Way just pointed out, last night us knits had waaaaaay too many generals barking orders to everyone and not enough stars available to pluck outa the sky to go around and give each of them one.
I'll trade you other two countries, all your hordes at us for a month if you'll relieve us of all our pocket-Kim Jongs for a week.
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I'll trade you other two countries, all your hordes at us for a month if you'll relieve us of all our pocket-Kim Jongs for a week.
What's really funny is having visting generals start barking at you. :uhoh Rooks have one to many Napoleons as is no thank you!
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I miss the Zone Base fights and the Scattered Strats we had in 2008 :(
Getting your hands on a Zone base when there was equal numbers fighting over it was the best feeling ever. I remember once, on a day off from work i sat upping time after time trying to help get a cap over such a base, next thing i knew we finally got it and 3 or 4 hours had past. All I can say is the celebration of accomplishment was a nice ice cold beer and the biggest smile it'd hurt your face a little :D
Dolby is on to something, it is not the fight itself the horde is interested in. Others including Fugitive have stated this as well. The "collective" force is only interested in progress being made by acquiring his opponents territory. "What if" the territory was weakened away from the airfield to the point, the base was easily captured?
I have said this many times but not nearly enough, "The strategic value / reward in the game is so minuscule, that hardly anyone engages in a traditional war." Instead the game is driven by capturing bases. That is the way it is, and with recent changes, we can see how easily this process can be impacted, one way or the other. Yet, attacking a country's resources, barely is noticeable unless HQ is destroyed and a country looses radar.
Now dig deep enough into the AH manual and you could possibly unlock the key to keeping the radar down for the maximum amount of time.
If you were adequately penalized / rewarded by porking country resources, more fights would develop in wider areas in order to defend against such strikes. Taking the battle away from an airfield, removes the aspect of vulching. The high altitude bombing with escorts would increase and attackers and interceptors would assume more traditional roles.
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"The strategic value / reward in the game is so minuscule, that hardly anyone engages in a traditional war."
I absolutely agree with this statement, Chili. Given the way the rebuild times are for various hangers and strats, there is no longer
a viable operational or strategic aspect to Aces High. It has vanished. All that is left is a tactical component which in and of itself
generates these so-called hordes.
Pretty much gone are the decent sized bomber missions; they're run so infrequently that one of 'em generates
so much excitement the "country text" buffer is pasted away with reports for several minutes on 'em. The guys that
used to fly those bombers are now in fighters. There's very little sense to knocking out hangers or strats at fields
surrounding a "main target" when said hangers and strats will merely rebuild themselves in the same or less time it
takes those bombers to return to base.
Some of the maps themselves contribute to a large extent to the "hordes", consisting of choke points where
the diffusion of air assets isn't an option that is either desired tactially or operationally nor pleasingly contemplated. ie:
We know most guys don't want to fly more than a sector to a fight, and 1.5 sectors is pushing it. Two sectors?
Considered insanity by most of the pilots flying today.
It has taken years to reach this point with tinkering with strats, ENYs, CAPs , maps, failing to address it.
Hell, the players themselves do nothing to fight these "hordes". Fighter sweeps are non-existent, so
one or two pilots are constantly launching themselves at large numbers of enemy only to die whining
they got "ganged" when a decisive thrust of pure fighters injected into the defense would probably
turn the tide. So, to a large extent, the players themselves are responsible for the perceived hording.
I used to thoroughly enjoy the bombing and fighter aspects of the game, regularly participating
in bomber and jabo operations but have mainly been doing light fighter stuff for several months
now. There's very little point to bombing anymore beyond the instant gratification of seeing
hangers or town buildings blow up. Given the map sizes I no longer even care of the enemy
captures a field, or two, or ten. There's no actual resets today beyond the two per day we see
as a result of the arena CAP tinkering. I can't recall the last time a map was "won" by
a country other than on the "mickey mouse" one. Hell, with 250 fields, who cares if
some of 'em get rolled?
So I'm content to mainly fly fighters these days and if log on and see what I perceive as
a good fight in progress or one developing into one, I'll head there as the vast majority
of pilots do these days; and I don't blame 'em one bit. It's the only game in town.
Regards, Oddball
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not every one 'whines' when the hourde kills them, there are some who truly enjoy fighting the hourde, such as myself, hell im not happy unless im dieing, to me that is 'winning' and seeings thats how I have flown since my start, it aint changin anytime soon, the hourdes are my prey I feed off them, it would suk if they were gone.