Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SirLoin on July 17, 2008, 07:47:24 PM
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Is waterboarding an acceptable method of interrogation or is it torture?
John Ashcroft thinks it's "acceptable"
http://cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/17/ashcroft.waterboarding/index.html
Feared political pugilist,and #1 best selling author(& ardent supporter of Iraq war effort) Christopher Hitchens walks the plank to find out.(video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuhJUmR4B6Q
What do you think?It is very effective as you can see...Does the "ends justify the means?"..
Should this method be used on someone not yet convicted of a crime?..And as mentioned,what if you get the wrong person?
I personally think it should be part of sentencing AFTER someone is convicted of a "Terrorist & murderist" act.
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I personally think it should be part of sentencing AFTER someone is convicted of a "Terrorist & murderist" act.
Why after? Either you're against, or you aren't.
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What do you think?It is very effective as you can see...Does the "ends justify the means?"..
Against terrorists? Yes!
Any American, who isn't a lawyer, that wants to sound like a lawyer about it, go look at some Al Qaeda beheading videos to stiffen your spine.
I wish we could drown them all. As far as Im concerned we should give every terrorist one trial in front of a military tribunal and if found guilty hang them the following morning.
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Why after? Either you're against, or you aren't.
Well then i guess i'm "for" it .
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it just shows that the christian and muslim extremists have more in common than differences..
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Whether are we for or against, it's prohibited. See 18 U.S.C. § 2340
“torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
and
Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
and
Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.
We also ratified United Nations Convention Against Torture which says:
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
So...
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It's torture... no question in my book...
And it used to be no question in America's book too... I've pointed this out before - after WWII the USA tried, convicted, and EXECUTED 8 Japanese officers for the WAR CRIME of Waterboarding...
I'm not naive enough to believe that the US never did this sort of thing before... I'm just not comfortable with the idea that this is now SOP.
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It's torture,and the best recruiting Sargent their is for potential terrorists.In Northern ireland harsh treatment of terrorist suspects gave rise to an increase in IRA membership.
Telling the world your morally superior while dishing out this sort of treatment,shows hypocrisy of the worst sort,it shows the USA in a negative light and can not help if your trying to spread Democracy and Justice.
Their are prisoners at Guantanamo that would love a Trial,military or civil.
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Torture?
IMO, its close enough that I don't want the United States to be known for it.
Let me give you a little truth: On the battlefield, and in the backrooms, things have always happened out of pragmatic nessecity that aren't exactly legal. I know a guy who fought in Vietnam. They took two viet cong up in a helicopter. After they threw the first one out, the second was talkative. I don't like this sort of thing, nor do I loose sleep over them, but when the powers-that-be start trying to make this fact publically and legally acceptable, instead of something hush-hush, our country's values are getting very screwed up. And I think it is another part of a "boil the frog slowly" campaign to get Americans to gradually accept greater and greater levels of tyranny without rebellion.
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I'm for waterboarding 100%.
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Should this method be used on someone not yet convicted of a crime?
Convicted of a crime? So, the Marines get shot, level a building, pull the attackers out in a military engagement, and what...put them on trial??
LMAO
I've got a far better solution for the guys out there doing the hard job. Quit messing around with these liberal twits, forget taking prisoners, just shoot the guys shooting at you and be done with them.
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I'm against torture of any kind. What ever happened to the so called truth serums? Aren't those supposed to be more effective anyways?
This particular guy didn't last long at all did he? I don't suppose I would last any longer though without a darn good reason to. :)
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It's torture and unacceptable. I have no desire to watch terrorist kidnappers slice off a guy's head. Nor would I have any desire to watch our own soldiers terrorize a prisoner. I find it sad that any other Americans would find it acceptable. I find it simply deplorable that our President would condone this behavior.
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It's torture and unacceptable. I have no desire to watch terrorist kidnappers slice off a guy's head. Nor would I have any desire to watch our own soldiers terrorize a prisoner. I find it sad that any other Americans would find it acceptable. I find it simply deplorable that our President would condone this behavior.
:aok
If they find it an acceptable way of getting information then soon you would find it used by the government against its own people. :confused: Say good by to you civil liberties.
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it just shows that the christian and muslim extremists have more in common than differences..
Yeah, simulated drowning is right up there with murderous beheading :rolleyes:
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I find it simply deplorable that our President would condone this behavior.
Its a tough call but I think, given the exceptionally extenuating circumstances, it was and is justified. I do fully understand and respect powerful dissent on the issue.
It is my belief he (bush) will be judged sympathetically regarding harsh interrogation techniques once enough time has passed to provide true historical perspective.
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I'm for waterboarding 100%.
You're aware we are talking torture not surfing, right?
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You're aware we are talking torture not surfing, right?
Yep.
The only thing I am not 100% on is WHO gets the water treatment.
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The only thing I am not 100% on is WHO gets the water treatment.
Explain please, I'm really confused now.
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I dont know but when they mentioned this in the news it brought out images from hollywood of fingernails and pliers or broken fingers or even hot pokers. You know the real gestapo type methods. Then you see this and realizew its a mental toughness exercise with one most likely outcome of effectively getting what you want from the terrorist. Sometimes I feel like half our own politicians judges and lawyers too and all of the media would like to defeat us before the enemy wins the first battle but I support their right to freedoms afforded them by the men we place in true danger. This really could only happen in America and I believe that.
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Yeah, simulated drowning is right up there with murderous beheading :rolleyes:
yeah yeager... state sanctioned torture has nothing on a few beheadings... but as we all know good christians don't torture muslims... they just redefine the definition of the word.
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Here's a thought.
Lets ask these victims of our "torture" if perhaps we should just go back to how we used to do it.
We didnt do it ourselves. We just let other countries do it for us. (That really is the only difference)
Lets ask em if they would rather be held and interrogated by us. Or say.
The Saudies.
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At least we know where Torque's sympathys lie..of course it never has been
much of a secret...America is evil ya know :rolleyes:
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It's torture,and the best recruiting Sargent their is for potential terrorists.In Northern ireland harsh treatment of terrorist suspects gave rise to an increase in IRA membership.
Course if you removed British troops from Irish soil. You wouldnt have to worry about any IRA to begin with.
But thats besides the point.
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I think that torture is a very effective means of extracting information during an interrogation. Why restrict torture to interrogations of suspected terrorists? I think we should also waterboard U.S. citizens that are suspected of domestic crimes, of course, when all other means have failed.
Since waterboarding is harmless, let's use it everywhere!
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Course if you removed British troops from Irish soil. You wouldnt have to worry about any IRA to begin with.
But thats besides the point.
Of course if you removed Isreali, US and coalition troops from Muslim soil you wouldn't have to worry about waterboarding terrorists in the first place. But that's besides the point.
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Of course if you removed Isreali, US and coalition troops from Muslim soil you wouldn't have to worry about waterboarding terrorists in the first place. But that's besides the point.
Israel deserves to exist..That is another thread in itself though.
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Of course if you removed Isreali, US and coalition troops from Muslim soil you wouldn't have to worry about waterboarding terrorists in the first place. But that's besides the point.
Pooor arguement. Try again
It was terrorism that brought American troops to Muslim soil to begin with
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Since we know how things started, I'm wondering what brought Muslims to terrorism in the first place.
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Since we know how things started, I'm wondering what brought Muslims to terrorism in the first place.
It's their divine belief in being raptured up into heaven,bypassing judgement day..And recieving God's favour(..and that will be 72 virgins for you..! in reward)
The gents that hyjacked and flew planes into buildings were in almost orgasmic pleasure(as recorded) when they steered a few flight loads of civillians into buildings.
The cause of terrorism isn't our fight against it.
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Torture to press out a confession. Rather medieval now isn't it?
BTW, I have been in a KGB torture chamber, where they used very cold water and lots of time. No drowning simulation though.
And then another one for some beat-up work. Of course sound-proof.
KGB barbarians :devil
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It's torture... no question in my book...
And it used to be no question in America's book too... I've pointed this out before - after WWII the USA tried, convicted, and EXECUTED 8 Japanese officers for the WAR CRIME of Waterboarding...
I'm not naive enough to believe that the US never did this sort of thing before... I'm just not comfortable with the idea that this is now SOP.
Waterboarding? :rofl The Japs? :rofl They used to cut the livers out of our airmen and eat them and you think we prosecuted them for waterboarding? :rofl
What were the names of these Japanese? And provide supporting information.
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.
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Of course if you removed Isreali, US and coalition troops from Muslim soil you wouldn't have to worry about waterboarding terrorists in the first place. But that's besides the point.
where do you live?
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Definitely torture, we should be ashamed to call ourselves Americans for instituting secret prisons and torture. We are above this kind of treatment. It is illegal as stated in our constitution and we should hold the people responsible for allowing it as criminals. McCain is against it, he understands what it means to be a POW, maybe we should listen to his advice.
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Explain please, I'm really confused now.
Yeah, that did sound stupid. If there's a question of who gets tortured... that would be less than the stated 100%.
I don't oppose waterboarding... or most other forms of torture.
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I dont know but when they mentioned this in the news it brought out images from hollywood of fingernails and pliers or broken fingers or even hot pokers. You know the real gestapo type methods. Then you see this and realizew its a mental toughness exercise with one most likely outcome of effectively getting what you want from the terrorist.
You realise the waterboarding is only what the CIA do themselves...they hand over plenty of people to the Syrians, and Egyptians who do the really good stuff...waterboarding is childs play compared to what they do...far easier to let those animals do it for you I guess
Tronsky
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Bottom line is that confession brought by torture is often pointless, as well as sometimes torture to the death has brought nothing.
Most people break, some don't. Some lie, some fake, and importantly, SOME ARE INNOCENT!
Now, drowning torture is maybe child's play compared to cutting off fingers (after pulling out the nails) etc etc. However it is quite effective, the panick of drowning and suffocating as well, topped by being a no-name prisoner in a secret compound is no child's play at all!
So.....does a civilized nation support secret torture in order to find out guilty or innocent? Make up your mind...bahh :furious
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Of course if you removed Isreali, US and coalition troops from Muslim soil you wouldn't have to worry about waterboarding terrorists in the first place. But that's besides the point.
Ah yes, the old switcheroo. Take the effect and make it the cause. I saw that.
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torture and we should be ashamed.
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I think we learned it in vietnam... we were letting the south vietnamese do it to the black pajama guys and gals.
It is torture. there is no doubt. I do not believe in my government having the right to torture anyone. That is a very bad and slippery slope to be on. governments should be held to very high standards so far as torture goes.
On a personal level.. I hate the idea of it but if I needed to know something to save on of my own.. I would do it in a second. It would be extremely distasteful.
If that sounds hypocritical then so be it. I simply believe that governments should be held to higher standards since they have so much more power over people.
lazs
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As a sidenote, if you have to fight a stubborn anumal (big stock), they will sometimes lay down and refuse to stand.
First try is a knock on the ribs, use an elbow or your knee. These I learned from the vet, but it doesn't always work.
The most effective one is closing the mouth and nostrils...you can do that to a cow with some arm strength.
Tops one minute, and the animal is up! Not being able to breath or feeling water in your lungs simply makes your life go by in a dash.
Animals will panick from that one, that is but the beginning of what a human (hopefully intelligent enough) will feel. Being held in water in a closed chamber untill you have a near drowning experience must be an absolute nightmare. Ever wondered if there were actually cases of drowning...hush hush....
IMHO, like Lazs said
"It is torture. there is no doubt. I do not believe in my government having the right to torture anyone. That is a very bad and slippery slope to be on. governments should be held to very high standards so far as torture goes."
:aok
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The very fact that it doesn't actually kill or maim someone is a reason I think it is dangerous...they will have less hesitation about using it and less inhibition against someday applying it against Americans. After all, why not use waterboarding on Joey "Tunafish" Patella if it means he'll tell us who his mob associates are?
I have the same misgivings about all this "less than lethal" weaponry stuff they are devising.
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yep.. bz gets it. I too have misgivings about the tazers and such that they have now..
I know rich 46 will say I am an unamerican cop hater but.. I simply believe that because government (and cops) have so much power over us that they need to be held to a much higher moral standard.
You can't not see this and still think that a cop killer is the worst.. the reasoning is that if he will kill a cop he will kill anyone.. it is sound logic.. just as any cop (or government) who would abuse the power they have over the citizen is especialy bad.
lazs
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yeah yeager... state sanctioned torture has nothing on a few beheadings... but as we all know good christians don't torture muslims... they just redefine the definition of the word.
well.....hehe.....interesting take on things. I support the death penalty as punishment for brutal human behaviors so Im going to remian conistsent and support enhanced interrogation techniques against brutal humans. Of course, as long as its lawful :aok
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torture and we should be ashamed.
You go on and be ashamed of your bad self, besides its a basic component of human emotion and should be excercised from time to time.
I understand whats at stake in the world today and I say go for it, within strict limits of course....we dont want to be water boarding traffic violators and folks late on their mortgage :aok
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yep.. bz gets it. I too have misgivings about the tazers and such that they have now..
I know rich 46 will say I am an unamerican cop hater but.. I simply believe that because government (and cops) have so much power over us that they need to be held to a much higher moral standard.
You can't not see this and still think that a cop killer is the worst.. the reasoning is that if he will kill a cop he will kill anyone.. it is sound logic.. just as any cop (or government) who would abuse the power they have over the citizen is especialy bad.
lazs
lazs, would you kill a cop if he/she was trying to kill you :O
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I think we learned it in vietnam... we were letting the south vietnamese do it to the black pajama guys and gals.
It is torture. there is no doubt. I do not believe in my government having the right to torture anyone. That is a very bad and slippery slope to be on. governments should be held to very high standards so far as torture goes.
On a personal level.. I hate the idea of it but if I needed to know something to save on of my own.. I would do it in a second. It would be extremely distasteful.
If that sounds hypocritical then so be it. I simply believe that governments should be held to higher standards since they have so much more power over people.
lazs
The very fact that it doesn't actually kill or maim someone is a reason I think it is dangerous...they will have less hesitation about using it and less inhibition against someday applying it against Americans. After all, why not use waterboarding on Joey "Tunafish" Patella if it means he'll tell us who his mob associates are?
I have the same misgivings about all this "less than lethal" weaponry stuff they are devising.
These two have hit it spot on. To legalize and accept this behavior, one should also accept the fact that they, or their children/grandchildren, will be subjected to this new, legal, way of getting information. This acceptance takes civilized life backwards in the form of "whatever it takes"......all because of what....fear?
It takes courage to advance forward in the face of fear without resorting to the uncivilized behavior of our enemies. Letting fear drag the good down only empowers this type of enemy, as fear is all they have against us.
Good will always prevail against evil, and it shall do so with dignity.
:salute
Mark
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Good will always prevail against evil, and it shall do so with dignity.
The sun will burn all its fuel and our home, the only known planet in the universe to have life, our planet Earth will die. Question: Will good have prevailed against evil at that time? and with dignity? Just keeping it real baby....just keeping it real.
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The sun will burn all its fuel and our home, the only known planet in the universe to have life, our planet Earth will die. Question: Will good have prevailed against evil at that time? and with dignity? Just keeping it real baby....just keeping it real.
Yes, if you want to look at it the way I do. The sun is good, it brings us life, in continuing to burn until it has destroyed everything we know as life, it will have completed it's life cycle, which is good.
On to the point I was making with my statement you quoted. When we as a civilized people allow the evils of a few to bestow upon us their character, we have let evil win. Only when we stand up against fear and evil, without compromising the characteristics that make us good, shall we, the good, prevail against evil. It has been so since the beginning.
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It's torture and unacceptable. I have no desire to watch terrorist kidnappers slice off a guy's head. Nor would I have any desire to watch our own soldiers terrorize a prisoner. I find it sad that any other Americans would find it acceptable. I find it simply deplorable that our President would condone this behavior.
Trouty McTroutypants speaks wisely.
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Waterboarding? :rofl The Japs? :rofl They used to cut the livers out of our airmen and eat them and you think we prosecuted them for waterboarding? :rofl
What were the names of these Japanese? And provide supporting information.
Well here you go Rich... though i doubt you'll take the time to read it-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
Maybe you'll find this quote interesting-
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."
or this-
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
Or maybe John McCain can convince you...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml
"There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference.
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Good will always prevail against evil, and it shall do so with dignity.
Mark
Never has, never will, and I don't see any sign of that changing unless the American people have alot more capacity for getting pissed off than I have seen before.
Very little difference between us and say, ancient Sumeria, fundamentally. The state/overlords still steals the largest percentage of what the people produce one way or another. The only difference is that technology has made things so productive that we are comfortably fat and happy with what they leave us (for now). The methods of control are less brutal nowadays, but that has alot to do with the people being alot wimpier and easier to control.
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When we as a civilized people allow the evils of a few to bestow upon us their character, we have let evil win.
In a sense you are over analyzing the thing. Let me under analyze it for you. A much smaller kid, a real little snot of a fellow, is using every dirty trick in the book and he is kicking your bellybutton on the playground. You, being a much bigger fellow with a comparable chip on your shoulders is refraining from beating the crap out of the little guy out of some holier than thou sense of fair play. Let me tell you, that little guy will end up killing you because you wont fight his fight, which being dirty and underhanded gives him every advantage in the book.
For me, it is fair for the big guy to throttle the little guy unconcious and after doing that, to stomp his little brains into the dirt. We are talking about a life or death struggle here.
Sometimes good people have to do bad things to bad people in order to survive.
Just how I see things.
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Well here you go Rich... though i doubt you'll take the time to read it-
Heres a little view from the other side: Yeager writes in his book about being ordered to take squadrons of P51s low over Hitlers Germany to bomb and strafe German civilians for the purpose of demoraliztion. Yeager, upon hearing the orders remarked to the airmen nearby "I sure as hell hope we win this thing, because if we dont, well be tried as war criminals." Followed by descriptions of attacks against civilians on foot, horsedrawn, in vehicles, buildings, trains......targeting civilians. Men, woman, and children.
Just goes to show the utmost hypocracy demonstrated by those of you that think we have to fight fair. War aint like that guys. Soon as people start getting killed things start to unwind. Keep your eyes on the prize you bastidges! :aok
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In a sense you are over analyzing the thing. Let me under analyze it for you. A much smaller kid, a real little snot of a fellow, is using every dirty trick in the book and he is kicking your bellybutton on the playground. You, being a much bigger fellow with a comparable chip on your shoulders is refraining from beating the crap out of the little guy out of some holier than thou sense of fair play. Let me tell you, that little guy will end up killing you because you wont fight his fight, which being dirty and underhanded gives him every advantage in the book.
For me, it is fair for the big guy to throttle the little guy unconcious and after doing that, to stomp his little brains into the dirt. We are talking about a life or death struggle here.
Sometimes good people have to do bad things to bad people in order to survive.
Just how I see things.
a life or death struggle on the playground? that is about the worst comparision i've seen in a while.
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Yeager, what is in question is not ass-kicking or even killing, both of which you darn well know I believe should be applied to whosoever has it coming.
We're talking torture. There are good reason why men may respect an enemy warrior on the battlefield, but not a practicioner of torture. There are reasons for not doing torture that have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not the torturee is a swell guy. Its about who we are, not who they are.
You wanna get just pragmatic as all get out? Okay, every boy hurling rocks at an American convoy has the potential to grow up to be an Islamic terrorist, a planter of IEDs, etc. He is in the right place, he has the hatred. Why not just kill 'em all? Nits become lice aye? Just like a scene out Exodus. It would be practical, probably stop more terrorism than merely trying to torture a little information out of some grubby dude we captured in Iraq or Afghanistan who probably knows nothing anyway.
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Its about who we are, not who they are.
I was trying to convey this to yeager, but I'm a little longwinded today.
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that is about the worst comparision i've seen in a while.
I was rather tickled by it ;)
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You wanna get just pragmatic as all get out? Okay, every boy hurling rocks at an American convoy has the potential to grow up to be an Islamic terrorist, a planter of IEDs, etc. He is in the right place, he has the hatred. Why not just kill 'em all? Nits become lice aye? Just like a scene out Exodus. It would be practical, probably stop more terrorism than merely trying to torture a little information out of some grubby dude we captured in Iraq or Afghanistan who probably knows nothing anyway.
Love is all you need :aok
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I don't oppose waterboarding... or most other forms of torture.
Apart that torture is illegal and pretty much against principles this country is build upon, it crosses just about every moral/ethical/legal boundary known to western societies, and one day it may come back to bite us in the rear, if found acceptable not only by people but by our government as well.
What really worries me is that such people are passing skewed ethics down to new generations by means like that of home schooling, etc...
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Sometimes good people have to do bad things to bad people in order to survive.
Just how I see things.
How exactly does the good stay good in this situation?????? :uhoh
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a life or death struggle on the playground? that is about the worst comparision i've seen in a while.
I think Yeager was trying to show how pacifism doesn't work.
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AFAIK some prisoners have been released from Guantanamo since there was no evidence. Makes you wonder if they still had to suffer a dip.
One of them however put his mind on the job and died in a suicide bomb attack.
Was it revenge, or was he just following the original code?
Either way, if you wanna play the good guy, well play the good guy. Get to deep into the grey zone, and maybe you'll come out as the bad guy...
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I think Yeager was trying to show how pacifism doesn't work.
Sometimes it works, but that's beside the point.
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Well, Im still waiting for the Japanese WW-ll waterboarding atrocities commited on Yank POWs. :lol
Imagine that? They skewered, cooked, ate, bayoneted, burned, beheaded, infected, gassed, American POWs by the thousands and Dynamite came up with I've pointed this out before - after WWII the USA tried, convicted, and EXECUTED 8 Japanese officers for the WAR CRIME of Waterboarding...
Well, it sounded good.
I was going to type a whole post but decided not to. All I'll say is that in the entire history of mankind only Americans could be concerned about the rights of terrorists that want to murder them and their families. :lol
Most here dont have kids or kin over there getting blowed up by these scumbags so that makes it easier to poke holes in the air and wax morality.
I bet those that are there, and their kin back here, probably think its a good idea to force high ranking terrorists to give information that would save American, and Allied, lives. Most of all when the methods used are far more humane then what these wretched criminals would do to them.
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Most here dont have kids or kin over there getting blowed up by these scumbags so that makes it easier to poke holes in the air and wax morality.
What a load of crap. We had wars before, when many more were in harms way, yet mothers and fathers of those who fought, nor the soldiers themselves, did not legalize savagery.
What's so different now?
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Apart that torture is illegal and pretty much against principles this country is build upon, it crosses just about every moral/ethical/legal boundary known to western societies, and one day it may come back to bite us in the rear, if found acceptable not only by people but by our government as well.
What really worries me is that such people are passing skewed ethics down to new generations by means like that of home schooling, etc...
just a general responce to this line of thinking.
Prior to this and for quite a few decades now.
We didnt torture.
We had other countries do it for us.
Personally I dont see much of a difference ethically.
If you hire someone to kill someone arent you just as guilty of murder as the one who did it?
The only difference between now and then is we could technically say "We dont torture"
Because we personally diidnt do it.
That doesnt mean we didnt have anyone else do it.
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I suppose at some point this becomes a moral issue, and thus, not debatable in logical terms.
The only thing I have left to say, there IS difference between some prisoner possibly being given the 3rd degree in the field on an unofficial basis, and our nation blatantly announcing it as an acceptable policy.
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What a load of crap. We had wars before, when many more were in harms way, yet mothers and fathers of those who fought, nor the soldiers themselves, did not legalize savagery.
What's so different now?
Haha...really? Other then killing/maiming millions of woman, kids, noncombatants, in WW-ll we were actually quite civil weren't we? :lol Here, hers an example of our civility. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm
Americans tortured in WW-ll. If a high value target was caught, and we needed the information, we tortured them to talk. And so did the Brits, the French, the Germans, the Japs, and God knows what the Russians did. Even after the war both Britain and America sent out special hit teams to murder German soldiers and Gestapo who were suspected of torturing and killing our POWs. No trial, no nothing. A bullet in the back of the head. The French & Poles did the same thing. There were very few Japanese POWs not just cause of their Samurai code but also cause our soldiers murdered them in cold blood when they tried to surrender. We shot plenty of Germans who were trying to surrender too, "and so did they".
You really think we would annihilate entire cities and then shy away from torturing an enemy who had vital information? :lol
did not legalize savagery.
Oh man, that is precious. I got a huge laugh from that and I thank you for it. :rofl Thats the kinda talk you hear from a country that has about 30 X's the amount of Lawyers it actually needs.
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You really think we would annihilate entire cities and then shy away from torturing an enemy who had vital information? :lol
Fair statement.
I don't think of water boarding as torture in the traditional sense, but it does indeed appear to fill the requirements as terrifying to the subject. One point that some of the moral supremacists here fail to acknowledge is that war itself is an act of supreme terror. Also, what about the very real possibility that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed will be executed if convicted? Isn't that an act of terror as well. Ending human life in such a manner. We are hypocritical and truly immoral if we call these things legitimate, while calling far less things illegitimate.
Its all semantics, I know...but lets keep it real. We are either going to eliminate the islamic fanatic's movement or it is going to grow like cancer. One way or the other it will either be defeated or continue to threaten western civilization in greater and greater increments. No kid gloves with those bastards and my advice to soldiers fighting against those genuine certified barbarians is DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE CAPTURED, or water boarding will look like a walk in the park by comparison.
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Well, Im still waiting for the Japanese WW-ll waterboarding atrocities commited on Yank POWs. :lol
Imagine that? They skewered, cooked, ate, bayoneted, burned, beheaded, infected, gassed, American POWs by the thousands and Dynamite came up with
Well, it sounded good.
I was going to type a whole post but decided not to. All I'll say is that in the entire history of mankind only Americans could be concerned about the rights of terrorists that want to murder them and their families. :lol
Most here dont have kids or kin over there getting blowed up by these scumbags so that makes it easier to poke holes in the air and wax morality.
I bet those that are there, and their kin back here, probably think its a good idea to force high ranking terrorists to give information that would save American, and Allied, lives. Most of all when the methods used are far more humane then what these wretched criminals would do to them.
It's on the previous page buddy... and just as i guessed... you didn't read it.
Oh... and BTW, my family served/is serving this country... and no, none of us think this is a good idea. (My grandfather fought the Japanese during WWII so you can spare me the history lesson thank you)
Perhaps you would like to take some initiative yourself and bust out the ol google? Or are you too busy being smug and under informed?
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I have mixed feelings about it, even though it is quite clear that waterboarding is mental torture.
I don't want to allow our enemies to have certain knowledge that they will not be waterboarded, (or their loved ones water-boarded while they are forced to watch), or otherwise tortured. We Americans are already seen to be lacking will as it is. Why would a hardcore enemy otherwise give up any strategic info? A determined radical could hold out for a very long time absent something like waterboarding, or more precisely, the fear of something like waterboarding. This sort of thing could have its place.
And yet, because I despise and distrust big government, I am generally afraid of allowing it to torture anybody, least of all American citizens, or doing it on American soil.
I liked it better when we knew our CIA would be as ruthless as they need to be, but we never had to know about it. Maybe I could be ok with this kind of thing if there were very stringent conditions that had to be met before utilizing something like waterboarding.
There is no question that waterboarding is a bit more civilized than chopping off digits one by one, or jamming a red-hot poker up the poop shoot...
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Pooor arguement. Try again
It was terrorism that brought American troops to Muslim soil to begin with
Ah silly me: I thought Iraq was invaded because of it's failure to comply with UN sanctions! All along it was because of the Hussein regime's well attested support for al-Queda...
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Ah silly me: I thought Iraq was invaded because of it's failure to comply with UN sanctions! All along it was because of the Hussein regime's well attested support for al-Queda...
There would never have been American troops in Iraq had it not been for 9/11 and you know it.
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I suppose at some point this becomes a moral issue, and thus, not debatable in logical terms.
Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
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Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
hehehe... i think you might be right :aok
When it comes down too it... i guess i agree with Colin Powell when he noted in 2005 when President Bush wanted to loosely define torture, “The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. To redefine Common Article 3 would add to those doubts. Furthermore, it would put our own troops at risk.”
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Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
Go to Afghanistan and find the tali ban PR guy. He could use a good dose of your logical wit I am sure and no doubt you would have better luck there than here :rolleyes:
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Well, Im still waiting for the Japanese WW-ll waterboarding atrocities commited on Yank POWs. :lol
"It's just a flesh wound"
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Most here dont have kids or kin over there getting blowed up by these scumbags so that makes it easier to poke holes in the air and wax morality.
I have a son that has been there twice and is very likely to go again. I am against torture of any kind.
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I have a son that has been there twice and is very likely to go again. I am against torture of any kind.
I salute your personal sacrifice and the sacrifice your son has made and may make again! I mean that sincerely.
But heres the rub in our discussion!
Humans brutally murdering one another on the battlefield of war is ok but water boarding is bad? Is that correct? Pardon me for not connecting the dots here but I have enjoyed this thread.
Good discussion. Thanks.
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Americans tortured in WW-ll. If a high value target was caught, and we needed the information, we tortured them to talk. And so did the Brits, the French, the Germans, the Japs, and God knows what the Russians did. Even after the war both Britain and America sent out special hit teams to murder German soldiers and Gestapo who were suspected of torturing and killing our POWs. No trial, no nothing. A bullet in the back of the head. The French & Poles did the same thing. There were very few Japanese POWs not just cause of their Samurai code but also cause our soldiers murdered them in cold blood when they tried to surrender. We shot plenty of Germans who were trying to surrender too, "and so did they".
Never heard of most of that before you said it. Care to provide sources other than the fire bombing we all know happened?
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Humans brutally murdering one another on the battlefield of war is ok but water boarding is bad? Is that correct? Pardon me for not connecting the dots here but I have enjoyed this thread.
I don't believe killing is ok, I don't believe war is ok, yet I understand that as long as we have different countries on this planet with differing ideologies, there WILL be wars. I have religious beliefs for why we have wars and killing as well, but I won't go into that here.
Water boarding is torture. Torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Conventions that the US signed. I believe it is morally wrong to torture a prisoner as well since that prisoner is defenseless and dependent on his/her captors for all his daily needs, food, water etc. Also, what ever happened to the good old truth serum? Sodium Pentathol? Wouldn't that be a better way to coerce information from someone?
I salute your personal sacrifice and the sacrifice your son has made and may make again!
Thank you for that. :)
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Humans brutally murdering one another on the battlefield of war is ok but water boarding is bad? Is that correct? Pardon me for not connecting the dots here but I have enjoyed this thread.
Sam Harris makes that same arguement in his book "The End of Faith".
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If you think the US government hasn't done coercive interrogation/torture in the past, you are either very gullible or naive in the extreme. We have a media now that has a lot more power than it ever did before, in the past things like this would of never been reported. I don't think reporting it now is a bad idea either...
That said, I think the US Government in some capacity should have the ability to extract information on a limited basis. The final ruling should be determined by closed door Congressional and Presidential panels and the results would be released to the public (good or bad) if the information contained would not threaten any foreign operatives or collaborators.
I find torture deplorable, but fighting an enemy that hides, fights, and threatens civilians directly by (at times) suicide attackers makes any Rules of Engagement nothing but another weapon for terrorists to use against us.
What I would like to see is a strong UN to cry out in one voice, declaring anyone convicted of an act of terrorism to be put to death. Frankly, the fact the UN is such a glorified paper tiger is one of the reasons for the turmoil/suffering/injustice in the world today.
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Well, since the question has been asked...yes, IMO, torturing a prisoner is worse than killing an enemy on the battlefield.
Many of you are failing to realize that it is not whether or not distasteful methods of extracting information will be used (they will), the question is one of whether or not we want to try and give such methods moral and legal legitimacy.
If about torture are a weapon that the terrorists use against us, what of the rules about collateral damage? After all, they are probably terrorist sympathizers. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
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Battlefield? hah, what a loose term that has become. Funny that one man's battlefield is another man's back garden. Torture is living in a country torn apart by war. Torture is seeing your children burn to death by another countries bombs. Torture is seeing your loved ones beheaded on youtube. Torture is living in a world that is rapidly causing your faith to be worthless. Torture is knowing that whatever you do will not be enough. Torture is being unable to put food in your children's mouths. Torture is being told what to do and when to do it. Torture is seeing the suffering of the ones you love and being unable to stop it. Torture is seeing a solution yet not holding the power to act. Torture is losing your liberty, whatever you consider liberty to be. Torture is crying yourself to sleep with no one to hear you. Torture is owning nothing and still having people trying to take your nothing from you. Torture is waking up each day and still being part of the human farce. Torture is knowing love and joy can never be universal. Pouring water on a persons face a bit to make them stop lying? Hell, just add it to the list, does anyone think that to outlaw waterboarding will be the end of the torture of lving in today's world?
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Your right Dyno. Even tho I did look for it I did miss it. So I apologize. But I did read it and am unimpressed, "and never saw a mention about 8".
But lets look at it this way. We didn't try and convict Japanese for waterboarding. We tried and convicted them for torture, some of which INCLUDED waterboarding. In other words if you were convicted of aggravated DUI for killing someone in a car accident, AND, also received a ticket for no insurance, would you go around telling people you were convicted of no insurance? Look at the wording,
Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.
If I remember right those same Japanese were the ones who conducted biological and chemical experiments on Allied prisoners. These same Japs used torture techniques so abhorrent we would blanch even thinking about them. And if they also used waterboarding then its a real stretch to say they were convicted of waterboarding. In fact its downright silly. Especially when you take into account the monstrous things the Japanese did.
And because of the monstrous things they did, as Al Qaeda does, we responded with brutality as well. While we went nowhere near their extremes we did murder their soldiers without mercy and we did level their country with a bombing campaign that set a new standard for the word "carnage".
We are losing the momentum in this war right now yaknow. It IS starting to turn into another Vietnam complete with the border refuge our enemies can run to and the Marquis of Queensbury rules of war our gullible and comfortable public are forcing on our military. Next we will have severe morale problems among soldiers who know they are just pawns, and that they are not allowed to win because the American public wants to go to bed at night feeling more moral then the next guy.
Well here you go Rich... though i doubt you'll take the time to read it-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
Maybe you'll find this quote interesting-
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."
or this-
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
Or maybe John McCain can convince you...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml
"There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference.
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Quote from: myelo
Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
Go to Afghanistan and find the tali ban PR guy. He could use a good dose of your logical wit I am sure and no doubt you would have better luck there than here :rolleyes:
Everybody can breath now.
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Apart that torture is illegal and pretty much against principles this country is build upon, it crosses just about every moral/ethical/legal boundary known to western societies, and one day it may come back to bite us in the rear, if found acceptable not only by people but by our government as well.
What really worries me is that such people are passing skewed ethics down to new generations by means like that of home schooling, etc...
:lol Nice jab on the home schooling, took a few days before I went back & read that last part. I'd say that there was also a lesson in honesty in that. I suppose I could have lied about my position on it, to make sure that I always have your approval... but I didn't.
One thing that does bother me is our governments white glove stance on torture. They're willing to send prisoners to countries which authorize torture & essentially have other countries do our dirty work... while they say "oh, no... we don't approve." If the government stands in approval of torture, they need to own up to that instead of doing it in secret through other countries/governments whose stance is widely known already. That kind of double-talk is awful. And if our government can't take the heat of the astounding disapproval that follows their admission of torture approval, then they need not do it.
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:lol Nice jab on the home schooling, took a few days before I went back & read that last part. I'd say that there was also a lesson in honesty in that. I suppose I could have lied about my position on it, to make sure that I always have your approval... but I didn't.
:D It's O'club.
Anyways, I admire your honesty, and since we are at that and I know you're Christian, how does it fit with your religion (the torture)?
One thing that does bother me is our governments white glove stance on torture. They're willing to send prisoners to countries which authorize torture & essentially have other countries do our dirty work... while they say "oh, no... we don't approve." If the government stands in approval of torture, they need to own up to that instead of doing it in secret through other countries/governments whose stance is widely known already. That kind of double-talk is awful. And if our government can't take the heat of the astounding disapproval that follows their admission of torture approval, then they need not do it.
Just recently, somebody said (on one of those talk shows, I think it was about Obama and McCain's flip flops), that hypocrisy is necessary for today's politicians in order to do their jobs. I disagree, but that's what they are preaching.
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Quote from: myelo
Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
Everybody can breath now.
breathing....something we can logically agree on :D
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maybe we should just start beheading with dull knife and burning the bodies..then drag them around town
Lets go total war
I mean..we would not want our enemies to do anything as bad as "waterboarding" ..right?
Thats our problem right now..we are a limp wristed society..well our leaders are...
If we step up..we can end this now...Its going to kill a lot more people. But the war machine gets money..and you limp wristed liberals help then by dragging this thing on....We are fighting with one hand tied back...
Bring back the fire bombing b-29s...Can we MOAB the next Rally with the ak toting 5th century dirty beards? Crush destroy kill....By All Means Necessary
END THIS
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:D It's O'club.
Anyways, I admire your honesty, and since we are at that and I know you're Christian, how does it fit with your religion (the torture)?
It doesn't fit, really. Or if it does, I haven't discovered how. There's a few different types of torture (I'm assuming, I haven't studied it, so this is just my assumption): Out of a sick-minded wish to impose pain/suffering, with no outcome other than your satisfaction that pain/suffering was imposed. That, I am totally against.
But another kind of torture [on various levels]: if you are, for instance, 'scare' someone into giving information. The slippery slope with torture is: who gets to determine which folks get tortured & which don't? And who gets to determine which levels of torture are acceptable.
The authority behind those imposing the torture are allowing it to gain the means to their end. But who gets to determine if the authority is sound? Who gets to determine if the authority is working to a good purpose, or an evil purpose? There's really nobody who can determine that 100% except God.
So, the jist of it is that I definitely approve of torture. I do think highly enough of our country to believe that any torture we allow is with a good intent to secure the safety of our citizens. That belief of mine could well be changed if it appears that the leaders of our nation are working toward evil. But again, who gets to determine what's a 'good' purpose and what's an 'evil' purpose? I know it's not me. :)
*edit* As for torture that I could inflict on someone. I would personally torture anyone, without hesitation, if it was a matter of my family's safety. Whether torture is right/wrong, I'd take jail/death/whatever to ensure their safety. And I'd probably make it more painful than the other neighbor nations currently impose, to make sure it was resolved quickly rather than over a long period of time.
Just recently, somebody said (on one of those talk shows, I think it was about Obama and McCain's flip flops), that hypocrisy is necessary for today's politicians in order to do their jobs. I disagree, but that's what they are preaching.
I disagree as well. I think that it is their dishonesty which makes them a politician. An honest citizen in a position of voted authority could just as well do a bang-up job without being a politician. Haven't seen many of those around in the last few decades.
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So, the jist of it is that I definitely approve of torture. I do think highly enough of our country to believe that any torture we allow is with a good intent to secure the safety of our citizens. That belief of mine could well be changed if it appears that the leaders of our nation are working toward evil.
This paragraph does not jive exceptionally well when put side-by-side with this other paragraph:
I disagree as well. I think that it is their dishonesty which makes them a politician. An honest citizen in a position of voted authority could just as well do a bang-up job without being a politician. Haven't seen many of those around in the last few decades.
So you have noticed, as I have, that political systems tend to attract, and in evolutionary terms, select for precisely those individuals whom one doesn't wish to have power. I.E., those who are willing to work very hard, spend alot of money, say and do "whatever it takes" to get political position. Borderline sociopathy isn't just an advantage come election season, it may well be a necessity.
Yet you trust these same individuals implicitly with ever-increasing discretionary powers, trust them to act inhumanely "only" for humane of reasons.
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Indeed, BNZ. :) Harsh to try to be optimisic with those appointed over us when they have demonstrated such a capacity for deception.
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hey Txmom! I am for torture for information also. One instant problem i can see with your two definitions of toture lie within the definitions them self. There is no way of completely ensuring that people who enjoy the act of torture do not gain a place in society that pays them money to torture for the second definition. Historicaly the sadists were sought out to be the excecutioner or gaoler.
Personaly i cant justify why i am for torture in any way that doesnt have a strong counter argument, all i know is that a prisoner being abused does not effects no more than an african child too weak to swat the flies off his face or an old woman whose husband and sons have been excecuted.
The hypocracy of even having a law grading what abuse qualifies as torture or acceptable is typical of our spieces. No Abuse at all or full on no limits torture, all we do is degrading to ourselves when we think we can impose an acceptable guidline when it comes to inflicting suffering on another lifeform. The world is violent and the utpoian dream is just that, so torture who you must and keep it undercover from the public for goodness sake.
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Batfink, do you think it's ok if we deny freedom to our citizens because we can't free the whole world? Either freedom for all or none?
Is it hypocritical feeding our children even if we know some others are hungry? You are applying same principle on torture. Do we commit mass suicide now because we are hypocrites?
Besides we're talking about specific cases, which are illegal for a very specific reason.
“torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
and
the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession
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Never heard of most of that before you said it. Care to provide sources other than the fire bombing we all know happened?
Heres one such incident. http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html
The Brits were probably the most accomplished at it. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stickems/JosefGalinsky.htm
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html#Germany
ALLIED ATROCITIES
Allied troops, as well as Axis troops, committed terrible atrocities during the war. Some years after the war a mass grave was discovered just west of the city of Nuremberg. In it were the bodies of some 200 SS soldiers. It was not until 1976 that one of the bodies was positively identified. It was the body of SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Kukula, the commander of the 1st Battalion, 38th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment. Autopsies on the other bodies showed that most had been shot at close range, the others beaten to death by the rifle butts of the US Seventh Army GIs. In the village of Eberstetten, 17 German soldiers of the 'Gotz von Berlichingen' Division were shot after they surrendered to US troops.
On April 8, 1945, fourteen members of the 116th Panzer Division were marched through the streets of Budberg to the command post of the US 95th Infantry Division. There, they were lined up and shot. Three were wounded but managed to escape.
On April 13, 1945, tanks of the US 97th or 78th Infantry Division were approaching the village of Spitze about fifteen miles east of Cologne. They came under fire from a 8.8 anti-tank gun which disabled one of the tanks. That night, the village was pounded by tank and artillery fire and at daybreak the US forces entered the village. All the inhabitants, about eighty, were gathered together in front of the church. Included in the eighty were twenty German soldiers, members of an anti-aircraft unit stationed in the village. They were separated from the civilians and marched several hundred yards to a field just outside the village. There, they were lined up and mowed down by machine-gun fire. Next day the US Army ordered the civilians to dig graves and bury the dead. On April 14, 1995, a memorial for the twenty victims was built near the spot.
During the Allied assault on Sicily, the largest of the Mediterranean islands, (July, 1943) a dozen unarmed civilians, including some children, were apprehended by US troops after the town of Canicatti surrendered. The civilians were reported to be looting after they had entered a bombed out soap and food factory and were filling buckets with liquid soap that had spilled on the ground. At around 6pm, when an American officer, a lieutenant-colonel, and a group Military Police, accompanied by three interpreters, entered the factory the officer fired a series of shots from his automatic Colt-45 point blank into the crowd. He reloaded and fired again. Eight of the civilians, including an eleven year old girl, died. The officer and soldiers then drove off. Fearing reprisals from the residents of the town, the incident was hushed up for over sixty years. Due to the efforts of Dr. Joseph S. Salemi of New York University, this atrocity was brought to light. The perpetrator of this crime, Lieutenant Colonel McCaffery, died in 1954.
During the fighting in Norway and Finland, the SS Gebirgsdivision 'Nord', was opposing the Russian forces. Very few SS men were taken prisoners by the Red Army, most were shot immediately. A report on Operation No 11 from the Soviet 26th Division states: 'The enemy left approximately 400 dead on the battlefield. Some 80 Germans had surrendered and were executed'.
In the notes found on a Soviet doctor after he was captured, he had written: 'All POW's who belonged to the German Army were executed during the operations near Odessa'.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1944.html
THE JEWISH BRIGADE
In 1944, the Jewish Brigade, consisting of three infantry battalions and commanded by Brigadier Ernest Benjamin, became part of the British Army fighting in Italy under its own official Zionist flag. After the war, the Brigade carried out many clandestine operations in Europe as secret vengeance squads seeking out former concentration camp guards and SS officers who had gone into hiding when the war ended. Called D.I.N. 'Dahm Y'Israel Nokeam' (The Blood of Israel Will Take Revenge) It hunted down over one hundred ex-SS members in the first two month period of their operation. Their method was straight forward, first apprehend the victim for routine questioning, drive him to a safe location in a wood and there the Brigade identified themselves and then passed out a death sentence. The victim was then immediately strangled or in some cases shot. The spare-time activities of the Brigade was to help other Jews, who survived the concentration camps, to get to Palestine despite the British blockade. When the Brigade received instructions to return to Britain and disband, 130 stayed behind to carry on the work, especially the rehabilitation of thousands of Jewish orphan children. They achieved this by swapping identities with young Jewish persons from the many displaced persons (DPs) camps in Europe. These Jews were then sent to ports in southern France for transportation to Palestine. As one 'double' remarked ' Out of the darkness of the Holocaust we were able to show them the way back to joy and normality'.
KILLED BY THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN
Twelve French volunteers in the German Waffen SS (33rd SS Grenadier Division 'Charlemagne') who had fought on the Eastern Front were in a hospital in Bavaria when the war ended. They surrendered to French soldiers under the command of General Philippe Leclerc, the liberator of Paris. Accusing them of being traitors to France, Leclerc ordered them shot, their bodies left lying on the ground to be discovered some days later by US troops and buried. Years later their bodies were recovered and reinterred in the local cemetery. Inscribed on a memorial above the graves are the words 'To The Twelve Brave Sons Of France, Prisoners Of The Victors Who Were Executed Without Judgement'.
Just how many German POWs died in Allied camps? For over forty years we have been told that many hundreds of thousands of German soldiers had died in Soviet prison camps while at the same time keeping quiet about the number of prisoners who had died in American, French and British camps. In 1997, around 1.1 million German soldiers were still officially listed as missing. According to the recently opened Soviet archives, which have been proved to be extremely precise and detailed, the Red Army captured 2,389,560 German soldiers. Of these, 423,168 died in captivity. In October, 1951, the West German government stated in the United Nations that 1.1 million soldiers had not returned home. In other words, we were led to believe they had died in Soviet camps. If we subtract the proven number of deaths in Soviet camps from the missing in Germany we arrive at the figure of around 677,000. Where are these men?. They must have been interned by the western Allies, the greatest majority being held in American and French camps where they died in their thousands through deliberate starvation, disease and hard work.
STARVATION AT REMAGEN
After the capture of the Remagen Bridge, the US Army hastily erected around 19 Prisoner of War cages around the bridge-head to hold an estimated one million prisoners. The camps were simply open fields surrounded by concertina wire. Those at the Rhine Meadows were situated at Remagen, Bad Kreuznach, Andernach, Buderich, Rheinbach and Sinzig. The German prisoners were hopeful of good treatment from the GIs but in this they were sadly disappointed. Herded into the open spaces like cattle, some were beaten and mistreated. No tents or toilets were supplied. The camps became huge latrines, a sea of urine from one end to the other. They had to sleep in holes in the ground which they dug with their bare hands. In the Bad Kreuznach cage, 560,000 men were interned in an area that could only comfortably hold 45,000. Denied enough food and water, they were forced to eat the grass under their feet and the camps soon became a sea of mud. After the concentration camps were discovered, their treatment became worse as the GIs vented their rage on the hapless prisoners.
Tourists, cruising down the Rhine today can pick
I could continue but I do want to fly tonight. You egt the picture tho dont you? We were often as brutal as the enemy and have been so in every war we have fought. Thats why its called "war".
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bighorn, i think if we set certain guidlines for the act of torture someone will break them, some may even enjoy them. No matter even if they outlaw laying a single finger on a captive the governments will still do it to disposible people. It is not the same as 'some people are not free so no one should be'. It is that no matter what laws and equalities we try to enforce human nature will always bend things the way best suited to the objective if not totaly disregard them.
If a prisoner is being tortured for information we all know that he is getting a bullet at the end. Even if he does not he is screwed up for life, a bullet would be kinder. We are only free if we stick to the rules or dnt get caught but the soldier with a rilfe pointed at your head is as powerfully destructive to the invididual as any force in the natural universe. The soldier is god to the captive and that is not a possition that can be graded in levels of acceptility, it is just wrong. But we are going to do it even if no one ever finds out, so why would i bother being against it?
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You have to apply that to all laws for all crimes then, which pretty much means anarchy.
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I say waterboard every last one of em' :aok when they follow the rules so will we. you think they treat our prisoners humanley? they use their own place of worship and worse yet their own cicilian population as a shield because THEY KNOW we will will respect unless given no choice. gloves are off...make an example out of a few...let a few others watch and send em' home to tell their friends...hell use it as halftime show for the superbowl...they are cowards and wouldnt think twice to treating any one of you to a nice torturing before they cut your head off and send the video to your mother....process of natural selection will wipe the animals off the face of the earth sooner or later..i dont care how big and strong we are and they arent...pick your fights better and you might live longer...we nor isreal have ever imposed our will militarily in that reigin until provoked. nuff said <S>
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You have to apply that to all laws for all crimes then, which pretty much means anarchy.
This is not really about crimes is it? It's about what level of violence and suffering is acceptable to inflict on prisoners.
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I'm just not comfortable with the idea that this is now SOP.
Waterboarding in the US is currently illegal, at least since 2006. The CIA has used waterboarding only 3 times and not since 2003. Seems like a bit of a stretch to say waterboarding is SOP.
Just for the record, I think waterboarding in controlled/very-limited circumstances can be OK and should be legally permitted.
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Just for the record, I think waterboarding in controlled/very-limited circumstances can be OK and should be legally permitted.
Just about every torture is controlled and what would that limited circumstances be?
This is not really about crimes is it? It's about what level of violence and suffering is acceptable to inflict on prisoners.
All prisoners?
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Just about every torture is controlled and what would that limited circumstances be?
Controlled in a manner similar to what the US was doing. Only a select few very high ranking officials had the authority to invoke waterboarding and it was almost never done. The CIA only did it in 3 extraordinary circumstances.
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let me put it like this. If you fight for a country that uses torture for the extraction of information then you must accept you are part of the same process as those your 'team' has tortured if you should be captured. Anybody captured should expect to be beaten and killed from the start and be thankfull of any better. Even civillians caught up in a conflict are always going to be mistreated within and outside the boundries of laws and regulation by any nation or faction.
The suffering inflicted through torture for information is not the primary evil in war or crime today and there is no way to ensure it never happens. If we cease all torture by passing even more crackpot laws and regulations then whats next? All fight wars with blank rounds so no one gets hurt? Everyone suffers in war, thats the price we pay.
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DREDIOCK.Nice to know you support a Marxist based political and military organization like sinn fien and the IRA in their struggle against British Imperialism. :aok
But that's beside the point that you so conveniently missed,which is that this kind of treatment gives you spurious intelligence and creates the very thing you set out to destroy.
John Mcain is against torture,because unlike you DREDIOCK(notwithstanding the wedgies you received at school.-you really must get over that.) the man has actually been tortured;for him it's a no brainer.
I suggest you are waterboarded and when you admit to terrorist act's that hitherto you could not conceive of in your wildest dreams,you do not for shame,cry for the justice you so readily are prepared to deny others.(Irish freedom fighters excepted. :aok)
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If you fight for a country that uses torture for the extraction of information then you must accept you are part of the same process as those your 'team' has tortured
Oh......I dont know. I think water boarding on high ranking AQ should be considered a worthy exemption from any moral bearing. These animals do not fight far and should not be treated fair.
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this kind of treatment gives you spurious intelligence and creates the very thing you set out to destroy.
John Mcain is against torture,because unlike you DREDIOCK(notwithstanding the wedgies you received at school.-you really must get over that.) the man has actually been tortured
The few times it (water boarding) was used are said to have generated valuable actionable data that saved "many" lives. Thats all it did.
McCain is a politician today, and if he were given the same choices as those who made the choice to water board KSM I suspect strongly he would have put
his personal convictions aside for the greater defense of the nation. Thats his job. To protect the American people, not open them up to attacks of mass murder and destruction
based "soley" on a personal conviction against water boarding. To do otherwise would be a far greater wrong than any perceived moral infraction against the barbaric islamic fanatics
sworn to kill as many Americans as possible.
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let me put it like this. If you fight for a country that uses torture for the extraction of information then you must accept you are part of the same process as those your 'team' has tortured if you should be captured. Anybody captured should expect to be beaten and killed from the start and be thankfull of any better. Even civillians caught up in a conflict are always going to be mistreated within and outside the boundries of laws and regulation by any nation or faction.
The suffering inflicted through torture for information is not the primary evil in war or crime today and there is no way to ensure it never happens. If we cease all torture by passing even more crackpot laws and regulations then whats next? All fight wars with blank rounds so no one gets hurt? Everyone suffers in war, thats the price we pay.
Tell that to war crimes victims. You may also start campaign to exonerate Nazis and everyone else who has been accused (wrongfully) of war crimes.
While you are at it, tell Jewish to stop whining about holocaust, because the price they paid was actually wholesale and they got off cheaply.
It starts with torture and ends with holocaust.
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Torture ---> Removal of rights -----> Communism :huh
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Torture ---> Removal of rights -----> Communism :huh
It would not be communism if you contracted torture with competing private enterprises that had a profit motive.
The company that gets the best intel gets more money.
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We are debating whether an interrogation technique that leaves no sign 30 minutes later is acceptable for a group of people who have butchered and executed EVERY single one of our people who were unfortunate enough to be captured. :huh
(aside: 1/3 of ALL allied prisoners died in Japanese captivity..."Bridge on the River Kwai" made events seem very tame, compared to reality) In 1942, the Japanese army had recently captured more than 200,000 Allied prisoners of war and desperately needed a new supply route to support its frontline troops in Burma. Under backbreaking conditions, POWs, along with thousands of Asian laborers, were ordered to complete a railway linking Thailand and Burma that would include the infamous “bridge on the River Kwai.” After 14 grueling months of exhaustion and malnourishment, disease, bone-deep leg ulcers, and the loss of 100,000 lives, the POWs and laborers completed the 260-mile “Death Railway.”
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/zhomepage/bridge-on-the-river-kwai
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I'd bet that if I used roughly that technique on you, you'd show non-physical signs untill you die......
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We are debating whether an interrogation technique that leaves no sign 30 minutes later is acceptable for a group of people who have butchered and executed EVERY single one of our people who were unfortunate enough to be captured. :huh
No, we are debating whether the good guys should torture, and if they do, what good does it.
(aside: 1/3 of ALL allied prisoners died in Japanese captivity..."Bridge on the River Kwai" made events seem very tame, compared to reality) http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/zhomepage/bridge-on-the-river-kwai
Ever heard of The International Military Tribunal for the Far East? It's not they got off scot free. Most of those criminals who survived the war were charged and prosecuted.
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I'd bet that if I used roughly that technique on you, you'd show non-physical signs untill you die......
Well...that's why they call it SIMulated drowning
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No, we are debating whether the good guys should torture, and if they do, what good does it.
Ever heard of The International Military Tribunal for the Far East? It's not they got off scot free. Most of those criminals who survived the war were charged and prosecuted.
To my knowledge, we've done it exactly three times, and they sang like canaries (with verifiably useful intel)
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Tell that to war crimes victims. You may also start campaign to exonerate Nazis and everyone else who has been accused (wrongfully) of war crimes.
While you are at it, tell Jewish to stop whining about holocaust, because the price they paid was actually wholesale and they got off cheaply.
It starts with torture and ends with holocaust.
In my view it does not. It starts with stealing the small kid's lunch money in the playground and ends with nuclear bombing raids or mass genocide.
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Wholesale price?
In the Holocaust the dead jews had close to the same numbers as the state of Israel today.
But that is for a different thread anyway.
As for the three times...do you really think so....
Remember those prisons in Iraq where nothing "happened" untill it was reveiled....
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In my view it does not.
Because your view is that law shouldn't tell us what is right or wrong because we as humans commit crimes no matter the law?
We shouldn't be against smaller evil as long as big evil remains?
Not quite so.
We humans lived millions of years by certain rules. Rules ensured that groups could function which in turn increased chances of survival. Inside the group, some limits were imposed, hierarchy, dos and don'ts, etc . No different than wolf pack. That's how nature made us (or God, if you're religious)
The more successful the bigger that group, tribe, clan, nation became and with that more complex. So did the rules of behavior, you can call them code of conduct, morals, ethics, pick your term. Even with increased complexity, there was always very clear what's right and what's wrong.
The bible, the laws, modern ethics, all are pretty much based on it. Sometimes, code of conduct took wrong turn so far and so badly, that even some big and powerful civilizations fell as a result of moral decay, at other times, deviation was corrected by wars and revolutions, education, religion.
With ever increasing world population, industrialization, technological advances, societies evolved and moral rules became increasingly complex and codified into the laws just about everywhere on this planet, yet the basic rules are still the same.
Today, philosophers discuss the ethics, change the rules, drop some and create new ones, so do politicians and people, some ignore them like tyrants and criminals, and some do not understand them for various reasons, some wish them simplified, some even more complex.
And even though we live in the same society, by the same laws, we also create our own which are part of individual moral fortitude. The one we live by.
Luckily, enough people set pretty high personal standards, draw the lines which they don't cross, no matter the hardship, which ensures survival of us as a civilized society during dark times, like war, natural disasters, terrorist attacks and so on.
On the end, it really is simple, there is the difference between right and wrong, even if some can't see the line which separates them, and the torture is definitely on the wrong side.
Besides of all of the above, how can anyone consider being free, living in a country where people are tortured?
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Besides of all of the above, how can anyone consider being free, living in a country where people are tortured?
Because nobody would be tortured here. And certainly not citizens. The only ones dunked would be very high value terrorist leaders and only then to prevent great American and Allied loss of life.
Your talking like were going to open up a torture chamber on every street corner.
As for the rest of your post Bighorn? Thank you. I dont believe Ive ever read anything quite like it.
You guys think an American running for President would come out in favor of waterboarding Terrorist leaders? :lol Dont be so gullible.
ause your view is that law shouldn't tell us what is right or wrong because we as humans commit crimes no matter the law?
We shouldn't be against smaller evil as long as big evil remains?
Not quite so.
We humans lived millions of years by certain rules. Rules ensured that groups could function which in turn increased chances of survival. Inside the group, some limits were imposed, hierarchy, dos and don'ts, etc . No different than wolf pack. That's how nature made us (or God, if you're religious)
The more successful the bigger that group, tribe, clan, nation became and with that more complex. So did the rules of behavior, you can call them code of conduct, morals, ethics, pick your term. Even with increased complexity, there was always very clear what's right and what's wrong.
The bible, the laws, modern ethics, all are pretty much based on it. Sometimes, code of conduct took wrong turn so far and so badly, that even some big and powerful civilizations fell as a result of moral decay, at other times, deviation was corrected by wars and revolutions, education, religion.
With ever increasing world population, industrialization, technological advances, societies evolved and moral rules became increasingly complex and codified into the laws just about everywhere on this planet, yet the basic rules are still the same.
Today, philosophers discuss the ethics, change the rules, drop some and create new ones, so do politicians and people, some ignore them like tyrants and criminals, and some do not understand them for various reasons, some wish them simplified, some even more complex.
And even though we live in the same society, by the same laws, we also create our own which are part of individual moral fortitude. The one we live by.
Luckily, enough people set pretty high personal standards, draw the lines which they don't cross, no matter the hardship, which ensures survival of us as a civilized society during dark times, like war, natural disasters, terrorist attacks and so on.
On the end, it really is simple, there is the difference between right and wrong, even if some can't see the line which separates them, and the torture is definitely on the wrong side.
Besides of all of the above, how can anyone consider being free, living in a country where people are tortured?
Bec
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The Brits used really neat Marquis of Queensbury rules some time back....they marched in nice, straight lines, wore bright red uniforms...and we wore uniforms which blended into the rocks and trees from which we shot behind....the Brits lost, and they stopped wearing the pretty red uniforms :D
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Because nobody would be tortured here. And certainly not citizens. The only ones dunked would be very high value terrorist leaders and only then to prevent great American and Allied loss of life.
Lets say we allow torture as you stated above.
I'd still have problems with it because:
a) If not here, where and by whom? How can we trust those who are such scumbags that would torture for somebody else?
b) What if US citizen is a high ranking terrorist and/or we suspect knowledge of future attack?
c) If you have so little info that you have to resort to torture, how can you be sure that info extracted will actually prevent loss of life? If we'd know, we probably wouldn't have to torture?
d) Current administration redefined the torture in order to circumvent the law. How can we be sure future administrations won't try the same and redefine what the terrorism is in order to apply torture on larger scale, worse yet, here at home?
You guys think an American running for President would come out in favor of waterboarding Terrorist leaders? :lol Dont be so gullible.
Too many times presidential candidate made 180 degree turn after being elected.
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Lets say we allow torture as you stated above.
I'd still have problems with it because:
a) If not here, where and by whom? How can we trust those who are such scumbags that would torture for somebody else?
Compared to whom? The scumbags we trust with weapons of mass death that have the power to end all life on the planet? Those scumbags? And they must be scumbags right? If they are ruthless enough to unleash nuclear weapons. A 450 KT nuke falling on you must make waterboarding feel like a day at the beach.
b) What if US citizen is a high ranking terrorist and/or we suspect knowledge of future attack?
Different rules. But even there would you want to remain moral or have 30,000 people choking to death on sarin in the NYNY subway. Just an example.
c) If you have so little info that you have to resort to torture, how can you be sure that info extracted will actually prevent loss of life? If we'd know, we probably wouldn't have to torture?
If your looking for absolute truths then find another species to belong to. Your never sure till you find it. Even still terms like "high probability" have value.
d) Current administration redefined the torture in order to circumvent the law. How can we be sure future administrations won't try the same and redefine what the terrorism is in order to apply torture on larger scale, worse yet, here at home?
All the misdirection and hysteria might turn you into a liberal. Even in WW-ll, the closest weve ever come to martial Law, this didnt happen If I have to choose between trusting or Govt. or the terrorists my choice is easy.
Too many times presidential candidate made 180 degree turn after being elected.
Ya think? Can you imagine anyone running for President saying, "Im for torture"? The way it usually works, if you havnt noticed, is they say what they need to say to get elected and then afterwards do what they have to do.
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Bighorn i think you're reading too much into my replies. Purely talking about the act of torture on prisoners, there is no point banning waterboarding specifically and thinking that makes us more humane than anyone else. And there is no point thinking we are more humane if we set certain standards within the act of torture for many reasons, one being that people will always enjoy torturing others, another that the guidlines will always be broken if needed. Nothing would change except that more people would be forced to break the law in order to ensure your country survives todays world.
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I am VERY certain that I do not want a government that allows torture of terrorists to define terrorist for me.
lazs
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I am VERY certain that I do not want a government that allows torture of terrorists to define terrorist for me.
lazs
Exactly, there you go :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
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I heard that the Obama campaign is doing a soft probe behind the scenes in Congress to see if there is any sentiment for granting the IRS the right to torture. There are many, many new social engineering programs as well as nationial health care to fund, so it makes sense... you know - more money to be used for "good"
has anybody been able to confirm this?
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Bighorn i think you're reading too much into my replies. Purely talking about the act of torture on prisoners, there is no point banning waterboarding specifically and thinking that makes us more humane than anyone else. And there is no point thinking we are more humane if we set certain standards within the act of torture for many reasons, one being that people will always enjoy torturing others, another that the guidlines will always be broken if needed. Nothing would change except that more people would be forced to break the law in order to ensure your country survives todays world.
No I don't. You're the one who's painting the picture like we are on the brink of extinction because of few scumbags.
You're from UK so I do understand your point of view, because your government has created the state of perpetual paranoia and you guys let your government grab the powers not imaginable in any other democracy.
Among all the western democracies, only in UK police can stop, search and arrest anyone anywhere without probable cause.
If you get arrested, police can search your home without warrant.
Not to mention your CCTV covers more of your life than EDTV would.
And OMG, those posters in London plastered everywhere you go, saying something like "Secure beneath the watchful eye" or something like that.
You can't defend yourself either, no guns, smack a burglar and you get arrested, while criminal gets free psychological treatment for suffering you caused it to him.
Torture is probably the last piece of puzzle your government needs to convert UK into complete police state.
So, yeah, go for it.
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I am VERY certain that I do not want a government that allows torture of terrorists to define terrorist for me.
lazs
The mechanics of elected government being what they are, I cant think of a better civilian institution to do the job. You got any ideas?
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oh i see how it is, its just another 'America is free, England is a prison' point of view. I'm not going to stand here and argue a point about torture with someone who is only interested in lifting their own country above the heads of the rest of the world. That is the overall problem here, Bighorn, that you seem to think banning torture will make America the world's moral guardians..... you nuked two cities less than 100 years ago, you are not fooling anyone but yourself.
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you nuked two cities less than 100 years ago.
Yes, we won your war for you and now you would hold it against us?
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won our war? I suppose pearl harbour was our loss too.
You pumped up, over zealous Euro-haters just have to have a pop whenever you get a chance dont you.
oh nice edit yeager.... I'm not holding it agaisnt you, I'm telling you your quest to be the moral leaders of the world is a joke.
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??
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u7/rattfink31/7061860-lg.jpg)
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This present Labour government has been the most authoritarian Government the British people have had in living memory,and I speak as someone who has voted Labour all my life.
I shall vote them out next election.I want my freedoms protected not taken away.
I have a lot of time for the Conservative politician David Davis,who's just ruined his career,making a stand on the freedoms we have in this country,and are threatened not by wacko fundamentalist Muslims, but are own Democratically elected Government.
Waterboarding is Torture.Torture is Morally wrong,if we except that their is a universal Morality,and that we in the West try to adhere to it,then we should not be torturing people;not only is it wrong,but it's counter productive, breeds terrorist's and leaves you with unreliable intelligence,assuming you get any intelligence at all.
I'm sure the Viet cong either got no intelligence off Senator John mcain,or what they did get was useless. ;)
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you nuked two cities less than 100 years ago, you are not fooling anyone but yourself.
In the August 1943 Quebec Agreement, which renewed “full and effective” interchange between Great Britain and the United States, the two nations pledged not to use the bomb either against each other or against a third party without mutual consent.
You meant "we nuked two cities less than 100 years ago" right?
I'm telling you your righteous indignation is a joke.
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oh nice edit yeager.... I'm not holding it agaisnt you, I'm telling you your quest to be the moral leaders of the world is a joke.
Dont sweat it. next time your puny nations bellybutton is in a lurch there will be Americans dying, again, to save your little wealth of a kingdom from its own stupidity, again.
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that you seem to think banning torture will make America the world's moral guardians.....
We are not going to ban torture.
(it has been banned by fifth and eight amendments ever since we adopted constitution, and 18 U.S.C. § 2340 makes it illegal everywhere in the world)
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Does the eighth amendment prohibit cruel and unusual punishments if the cruelty is common?
Just wondering.
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In the August 1943 Quebec Agreement, which renewed “full and effective” interchange between Great Britain and the United States, the two nations pledged not to use the bomb either against each other or against a third party without mutual consent.
You meant "we nuked two cities less than 100 years ago" right?
I'm telling you your righteous indignation is a joke.
I'm not blaming the USA, Im stating the facts. Did you stop and bother to ask me if i thought the atomic attacks were a good idea? no, you just assume you know everything I think. My point is one of neutral viewpoint. Do you think the japanese have forgotten or forgiven the attacks?
We are not going to ban torture.
(it has been banned by fifth and eight amendments ever since we adopted constitution, and 18 U.S.C. § 2340 makes it illegal everywhere in the world)
And there in lies the krux, that we think we can command laws for the entire planet.
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And there in lies the krux, that we think we can command laws for the entire planet.
British empire did just that for far longer and with much worse implications than we ever will. And is not that you voluntary gave up, you just converted it to domestic affairs with rather dark results when it comes to free will of your people.
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blah
blah
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I'm not blaming the USA, Im stating the facts.
But you forgot that the British were intimately involved in the policy and the science behind the bomb.
Unless your ID info is false, you are from the UK. Hence, 'we' is the appropriate pronoun.
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The European war was won in the East,the western front was a sideshow.
That said the Russians although they would have won without it,American Lend lease did make a massive difference,not the p40's or P39's but ford and Studebaker trucks made them more mobile and brought the war to a more speedy conclusion,although if it wasn't for the American's we may well be speaking Russian.
God bless America. :aok
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Does the eighth amendment prohibit cruel and unusual punishments if the cruelty is common?
As long as we do not redefine the laws which define what cruelty is, yes. It's up to lawmakers to change that.
For now courts are saying: "the torturer has become, like the pirate and the slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." http://openjurist.org/630/f2d/876/filartiga-v-pena-irala
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yeager.. you missed my point entirely.. I don't want any organization that is so morally bankrupt that it thinks that torture of people is ok so long as it serves a purpose... I don't want those people defining what is a good purpose or who should be allowed to be tortured.
lazs
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Amen to that.
And an old saying...who guards the guards?
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This is done.