Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: pokecheck on July 30, 2008, 05:18:35 PM
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Just like the title says, what is the most over-rated aircraft in our plane set.
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Just like the title says, what is the most over-rated aircraft in our plane set.
What do you mean by over-rated?
We collectively thinks it's good, but it's not that good?
It is over-used?
It is over-modelled?
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LA-7
Tempest Close second.
(IMO)
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LA-7
Tempest Close second.
(IMO)
And what's bringing you to that conclusion?
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And what's bringing you to that conclusion?
Ignorance.
ack-ack
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I would vote for the N1K.
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The FireFly, either it's gun was upped or the Tiger's armour was porked. La-7 and Temp are perfectly fine where they are.
(P63 would be the end to the La-7, they'd have to PERK the P-63.)
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The FireFly, either it's gun was upped or the Tiger's armour was porked.
I would say your understanding of the 17lbr gun is what is porked.
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The FireFly, either it's gun was upped or the Tiger's armour was porked. La-7 and Temp are perfectly fine where they are.
(P63 would be the end to the La-7, they'd have to PERK the P-63.)
1+, seriously man, stop going on with this P-63 stuff! Dedicate a topic to it in the wishlist section if you want it that bad.
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The La7, Typhoon, and Nik2 are over-tated???
Hmm. They are not some of the first planes to be grabbed even by the "l337" for nothing. The Typhoon is the "hardest" plane of those three to learn, but once the strong points are learned and they are taken advantage of, the Typhoon is a devsitating plane.
The Nik and La7 are not oever-rated. In fact, I think they are under-rated just like the Spit16.
The most over-rated plane in the game is the Spit14. It is not unlike any other Spit until it gets to 18k ('cept a better climb rate and dual .50cal instead of quad .30cal MG's). But for some reason it is PERKED and the Spit16 is not. The P51D is another plane that is over-rated. It is not a plane one can just hop into and fly like the La7, Spit16, or Nik2. The P51D takes time to learn.
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Ignorance.
ack-ack
x2
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I just think the N1K is over-rated because it's not very fast and its 20mm ballistics are average. Secondly, the airplane only excels at furballing, and is more or less helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-aircraft engagement. The most effective N1K pilots are great shots who kill with the smallest window of opportunity; I know when I've run into them because I end up in the tower. :lol
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Secondly, the airplane only excels at furballing, and is more or less helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-aircraft engagement.
So, you are saying it isn't fast enough for you to run away in, and that is a problem for you?
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So, you are saying it isn't fast enough for you to run away in, and that is a problem for you?
You beat me to this.
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The FireFly, either it's gun was upped or the Tiger's armour was porked. La-7 and Temp are perfectly fine where they are.
(P63 would be the end to the La-7, they'd have to PERK the P-63.)
There is nothing wrong with the gun on the Firefly. It was able to kill a Tiger with one shot in real life, no reason why it shouldn't be able to do it here.
ack-ack
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The most over-rated plane in the game is the Spit14.
You're mistaking over rated with pilot incompetence. The Spitfire Mk XIV in the hands of a player that knows how to fly it, it is a very deadly aircraft. Sadly, those players are far and few inbetween and most that try to fly the Spitfire Mk XIV try and fly it like a normal Spitfire and die quiet easily. As a result, they claim the plane is over rated but in reality it is just a simple case of the player sucking.
ack-ack
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p-51,yak9u,tbm
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I don't see how the Yak and the TBM are over rated.
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There is NO OVERRATED plane. :uhoh
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There is NO OVERRATED plane. :uhoh
agreed......just overrated pilots
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And what's bringing you to that conclusion?
dunno, its just me, considering how they are always considered by many to be "uber" they neither are planes I really fear when I see one, never really give me much trouble. granted a great stick is pure horror in one, but that can be said for many rides..
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So, you are saying it isn't fast enough for you to run away in, and that is a problem for you?
yeah, that's it exactly. :rolleyes:
I wish I could make up straw-man fallacies as well as you. Will you teach me? :aok
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dunno, its just me, considering how they are always considered by many to be "uber" they neither are planes I really fear when I see one, never really give me much trouble. granted a great stick is pure horror in one, but that can be said for many rides..
The trick in plane evaluation and comparison is trying to get individual pilot skill out of the equation.
The fact that planes like La7 have a comparatively higher percentage of not so skilled pilots steering them actually often leads to some underrating of the airframe itself. Many a time I read "they are not that dangerous" "La-7 sucks"... the truth is far from that ;)
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There is nothing wrong with the gun on the Firefly. It was able to kill a Tiger with one shot in real life, no reason why it shouldn't be able to do it here.
ack-ack
Eh, no problem to me anyways really, I use the Firefly more than the Tiger too :) 1+, seriously man, stop going on with this P-63 stuff! Dedicate a topic to it in the wishlist section if you want it that bad.
SlipKnots damn posts dont keep it up there long enough!!! :D
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The trick in plane evaluation and comparison is trying to get individual pilot skill out of the equation.
The fact that planes like La7 have a comparatively higher percentage of not so skilled pilots steering them actually often leads to some underrating of the airframe itself. Many a time I read "they are not that dangerous" "La-7 sucks"... the truth is far from that ;)
well yea its all about perception, alot of people overrate the LA7 because its so fast and alot overrate the Tempest because its the most expensive prop plane... they base their opinions on info that is more or less arbitrary.
the LA is freaky fast, but has poopoo range, doesent turn very well, but all many see is the top speed and cannons and thats it...the tempest is a really solid ride, but is placed a tad high on the pedistal... fly one into a furball and watch the conga line.
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the LA is freaky fast, but has poopoo range, doesent turn very well,
and the "doesn't turn very well is the point" were you're wrong. Probably due to seeing most La pilots flying the plane in straight lines with firewalled throttle.
And the Tempest can cut through a furball like a hot knife through butter. Only if your ignoring its strenghts (demonic speed, acceleration, hitting power) you're getting in trouble. But then, many pilots do underestimate the Tempest's turning ability too...
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agreed......just overrated pilots
Holy Crap on a stick! He gets it!
ack-ack
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You guys are funny. Whether or not there are over-rated aircraft depends on the accuracy of human perception and evaluation...by definition. :D
It's wayyyy too big of a compliment to pay the AH community when you say that there are no over-rated aircraft.
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many pilots do underestimate the Tempest's turning ability too...
SO true, i found out how little people know of the Temps high speed maneuverability, phenomenal :rock
i really only see people snapshot are runaway
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the LA is freaky fast, but has poopoo range, doesent turn very well, but all many see is the top speed and cannons and thats it...
This is a myth, the La7 turns very well actually, it out-turns every other energy fighter in the game when flown decently and a lot of planes you may consider a turner, like the F6F for example. It's also one of the very best climbers and accelerators. Another La7 myth is it's slow above 8k. The La7 is at or near the top of the non-perked list all the way up to 18k+. The reason these myths perpetuate is crap-tacular pilots fly them a lot who don't have the first foggy clue what they are doing. But, like the Spit16 if you get even a decent pilot in one, you're going to have your hands quite full usually.
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But, like the Spit16 if you get even a decent pilot in one, you're going to have your hands quite full usually.
Yes, but generally decent pilots have more class and look for more of a challenge then flying Spit16's, La7's and other top tier rides. Too easy/boring to fly on a regular basis just like perk rides.
Though of course there are always the exceptions who think they are the greatest thing to ever fly in the arena, are the shaws bible of ACM and will smack talk you like a teenager from da hood if you should disagree with them or heavens forbid shoot them down. :lol
<S>...-Gixer
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Holy Crap on a stick! He gets it!
ack-ack
:) :P
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Agreed, no real over rated planes, just the pilots.
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Yes, but generally decent pilots have more class and look for more of a challenge then flying Spit16's, La7's and other top tier rides. Too easy/boring to fly on a regular basis just like perk rides.
Though of course there are always the exceptions who think they are the greatest thing to ever fly in the arena, are the shaws bible of ACM and will smack talk you like a teenager from da hood if you should disagree with them or heavens forbid shoot them down. :lol
<S>...-Gixer
Yea, this is actually a pet peeve of mine. I'm all for people doing what they find fun. But, seriously, if your one of the top 100 sticks in the game it's time to do the community a favor...Get out of the ultra-hyper-ride w/ training wheels and flying something reasonably challenging. What happens if you get too many aces in the EZ modes all the newbies see their "text buffer candy puff piece" when they land. The Next thing you know 50 new players head to the hanger half in La7's the other half in Spit16s.
The other related peeve, is the top 100 guy fighting your mediocre plan with his ez mode *hyper-ride* then if he gets you he starts spewing how fabulous his skills are over 200 for 15 minutes...If I were King highly skilled people who only flew the "hyper rides" would have to pay us perks out of their wallet if they get us...Call it an Idiot Tax the tax would be equal to the ENY value of your plane.
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There is nothing wrong with the gun on the Firefly. It was able to kill a Tiger with one shot in real life, no reason why it shouldn't be able to do it here.
The British 17-pounder as used on the Sherman Firefly, firing its normal APCBC ammunition, could penetrate the Tiger I frontally out to over 2,000 m.
(Supporting info)
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C-47. They think they are all that... :mad: :mad:
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Furball, thats just cost me an attempt to laugh chocolate covered raisens out of my nose......... :D - none to successfully I might add......
<S>
Wurzel
errr, oh yeah, its not the planes I fear!!
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well yea its all about perception, alot of people overrate the LA7 because its so fast and alot overrate the Tempest because its the most expensive prop plane... they base their opinions on info that is more or less arbitrary.
the LA is freaky fast, but has poopoo range, doesent turn very well, but all many see is the top speed and cannons and thats it...the tempest is a really solid ride, but is placed a tad high on the pedistal... fly one into a furball and watch the conga line.
Anytime you wish to see what an La7 is capable of......give me a call.
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In AH, I would say the 109E and spit1 are over-rated. IMO the hurri1 and 110c are better a/c overall. Also, i do feel that the spit14 is over-rated given it's perked. Up to 25k, the 109k can do what the spit14 can do, for twice as long.
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What's up with the 'special' club of people who say "there are no over-rated planes, only pilots?" :huh It's merely a cliche that sounds cool (to some), and amounts to the denial of the human psychological capacity for erring evaluation. Think about it. Asking whether or not some aircraft are over rated is not the same debate over whether it's the pilot or the plane. It's a question about the accuracy of human perception and judgement.
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N1k1.
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What's up with the 'special' club of people who say "there are no over-rated planes, only pilots?" :huh It's merely a cliche that sounds cool (to some), and amounts to the denial of the human psychological capacity for erring evaluation. Think about it. Asking whether or not some aircraft are over rated is not the same debate over whether it's the pilot or the plane. It's a question about the accuracy of human perception and judgement.
It's the truth and you are merely a "nay sayer". Mainly because of the grudge you continue to hold against me. I was the first to say it and others agreed. Not because "Hey Karaya said this, so I'm gonna go along with him." But more of a "Karaya said this and he is correct, one plane is not anymore overrated than the next."
Save your psychological discussions for someone who gives a rat's ass. Some of us are fresh out.
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No karaya, I don't even think about you let alone hold a grudge. :P
Maybe you've hit upon a kind of metaphorical truth, but when I take the statement "there are no over-rated planes, only pilots" at face value, it means that we are all accurate in our evaluations of the performance of AH aircraft. That's what "rating" is; it's a judgement, and judgements are a piece of human psychology. The topic of this thread is psychological.
If you assent to the claim that we are all accurate in our evaluations of the performance of AH aircraft, then I will be satisfied.
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No karaya, I don't even think about you let alone hold a grudge.
Keep telling yourself that. :aok
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P.S. at least one person took this thread to be about whether or not some aircraft are over-modeled, i.e. perform better than their real-world counterpart.
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threads like this always inevitably turn into the following..
someone says:
"suchinsuch plane is overrated, its good but not as great as many think..."
then of course some chest thumper chimes in
"anytime you wanna see what suchinsuch plane is capable of, give me a call" or something to that effect, objectivity will always give way to ego.
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P.S. at least one person took this thread to be about whether or not some aircraft are over-modeled, i.e. perform better than their real-world counterpart.
Not over-modeled, the word used was "over-rated". Over-rated.
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Anytime you wish to see what an La7 is capable of......give me a call.
Can I DA you again in your La-7 Karaya? Last time it was a 50-50 fight :D
(I wanna try the P-39 up against an actual Experienced La-7 pilot, so far, all I've gotten were 2 turn kills :( )
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Can I DA you again in your La-7 Karaya? Last time it was a 50-50 fight :D
(I wanna try the P-39 up against an actual Experienced La-7 pilot, so far, all I've gotten were 2 turn kills :( )
Anytime. Again, ask JimBeam who was silent, but laughing at me set you up on the first 2 fights. Just remember you typing "LOL" when I said I was in a Spit 1 and you were in the tower before the completion of your 1st turn after the merge. P-39's = Easy meat.
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Not over-modeled, the word used was "over-rated". Over-rated.
To put my 2 cents in and help my friend Karaya here..the fact is that there is NOT an overrated plane in this game.
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Im overmodled
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Anytime. Again, ask JimBeam who was silent, but laughing at me set you up on the first 2 fights. Just remember you typing "LOL" when I said I was in a Spit 1 and you were in the tower before the completion of your 1st turn after the merge. P-39's = Easy meat.
I think last time, it was in Hurri 2cs and A6Ms... Not P-39s. You might mistake me for someone else :D :rock
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Im overmodled
i was thinking overinflated but oh well :D
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Nope, just overmodled..
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Think about it. Asking whether or not some aircraft are over rated is not the same debate over whether it's the pilot or the plane. It's a question about the accuracy of human perception and judgement.
Unfortunately, most players base their opinion on the quality of a certain plane on how it performs from how they fly that plane.
Player A flies a P-51D and gets shot down on the first turn after the merge by a plane Player A percieves to be of lesser quality. This then makes Player A think, "WTF! I see all this crap on the boards about perking the P-51D and all these people landing kills and I get killed by a Ju-87! This plane sucks!". Player A then walks away with the percieved notion that the P-51D is over rated from his experience.
ack-ack
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which leads me to my next statement......There is NO overrated fighter in this ame, PERIOD. Just overrated pilots
Unfortunately, most players base their opinion on the quality of a certain plane on how it performs from how they fly that plane.
Player A flies a P-51D and gets shot down on the first turn after the merge by a plane Player A percieves to be of lesser quality. This then makes Player A think, "WTF! I see all this crap on the boards about perking the P-51D and all these people landing kills and I get killed by a Ju-87! This plane sucks!". Player A then walks away with the percieved notion that the P-51D is over rated from his experience.
ack-ack
Quoted for truth
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I think last time, it was in Hurri 2cs and A6Ms... Not P-39s. You might mistake me for someone else :D :rock
I'm not mistaking anything. You can change your in game ID as many times as you want 1plus, but the person behind the name, never changes.
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I disagree with the notion that there are no over-rated planes. I firmly believe that the spit14 is over-rated in AH because i don't believe it's perk cost is justified.
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I disagree with the notion that there are no over-rated planes. I firmly believe that the spit14 is over-rated in AH because i don't believe it's perk cost is justified.
how so...that thing is insane!!! ever taken it up high? It's like super-duper fast and maneuvers fairly well......but then again...it all depends on one thing....the pilot
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Unfortunately, most players base their opinion on the quality of a certain plane on how it performs from how they fly that plane.
Player A flies a P-51D and gets shot down on the first turn after the merge by a plane Player A percieves to be of lesser quality. This then makes Player A think, "WTF! I see all this crap on the boards about perking the P-51D and all these people landing kills and I get killed by a Ju-87! This plane sucks!". Player A then walks away with the percieved notion that the P-51D is over rated from his experience.
ack-ack
I have to agree with this.
You really can't separate the plane/pilot dynamic. As I stated in my thread with this as the topic. The hardcoded data that makes up our cartoon planes only defines the outermost limits in terms of absolutes values (climbrate, turn-rate, speed etc). The only way you could possibly compare that objectively without the player dynamic involved would be a resource like Donzo's charts or the ones HTC provides. Once you add the player to the dynamic to the equation, purely objective comparison is actually impossible. Each person is incredibly unique in every way imaginable. That uniqueness injected into the cartoon plane's hardcoded parameters creates a practically infinite combination of results across the whole spectrum of the plane's core attributes.
Just as a basic example to build on what AKAK said...
I know two fabulous P51 pilots, they both get more than I could dream of getting out of that bird. But, the catch, and the most important thing is, they both fly the P51 in a completely and utterly different fashion. They both fly it beautifully, in a way that makes perfect sense to them personally, but to an outside observer there's very little in common with either except they are both extremely efficient killers. Now, if I am comparing the P51 to another plane like the Fw190D9, how would I do that objectively? I would have to try to find someone in the Fw190D9 that flew with the exact same mindset and profiency as one of those P51 pilots...Given the infinite uniqueness of the human element, that's completely impossible...You can't compare planes in absolute terms beyond what could be derived statistically from an Excel spreadsheet comprised of raw data and charts...
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Unfortunately, most players base their opinion on the quality of a certain plane on how it performs from how they fly that plane.
Player A flies a P-51D and gets shot down on the first turn after the merge by a plane Player A percieves to be of lesser quality. This then makes Player A think, "WTF! I see all this crap on the boards about perking the P-51D and all these people landing kills and I get killed by a Ju-87! This plane sucks!". Player A then walks away with the percieved notion that the P-51D is over rated from his experience.
ack-ack
That's a good example of when someone thinks others have over-rated an airplane. It can also happen that people do over-rate an airplane. An airplane might have a much bigger reputation than it is worth, e.g. the La-7, which is show by all of the "perk the La-7" threads. This phenomenon is not disputed by anyone.
Maybe we're wondering whether most people base their "over-rated" opinion from flying an airplane or getting shot down by them. I would have thought it was the latter, but you've made me think.
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The way i see it with the spit14 is, that because it is perked, it is in terms of AH, significantly better than other late war rides. This is what i disagree with, hence i feel it is over-rated. The most similar aircraft to the spit14, as many of you know is the 109K. Please feel free to disagree with any of the comparisons i make
below. I feel a general consensus can be found with many qualities of an aircraft.
Both are similar in speed and climb with the 109K generally faster under 25k, significantly between 15-25k. Speeds are similar between 10-15k. Above 25k the spit14 pulls ahead in speed by ~10mph. In the MA the 109 has the advantage, in scenarios above 25k it belongs to the spit14.
Both have average handling at middling speeds and are pretty poor at high speeds. At low speeds the 109k has a significant advantage, being much more stable and can be thrown about pretty easily. At low speeds the spit14 is unstable, particularly in the yaw axis and suffers from high torque.
Without flaps the spit14 has a smaller turning circle than the 109k, however the 109k can come close with the aid of flaps (not effective as the f4u's flaps though ;)).
The spit14 has superior firepower with it's twin 50cals and 20mm, but the 30mm isn't half bad with it's 1 shot capability.
It should be notedthat the 109k has twice the WEP, which is a significant advantage. The spit14's top speed without WEP is average for a late war fighter.
There are many other qualities i'm sure, but those are just what i can list off the top of my head. From the list above i can't see how the spit14 is significantly better than the 109k. Jusging by the fact it is perked it is deemed so. Therefore, i believe it to be over-rated.
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Dick, i have flown it above 25k but i don't believe that quality warrants it being labelled an uber plane in comparison to others. Especially when few fights are fought at that altitude.
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Fwiw, I've stated in the past that the XIV shouldn't be perked. But it does have better high speed control than the 109K-4, and the guns on the XIV don't require the focus of a zen master to aim properly. ;)
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P51
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P51
Why is the P-51 over rated in your opinion?
ack-ack
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Depends on viewpoint. A new player coming from History Channel might be in for a surprise when he finds the P51 no to be the dominating uber plane of the MA's ;)
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Depends on viewpoint. A new player coming from History Channel might be in for a surprise when he finds the P51 no to be the dominating uber plane of the MA's ;)
Exactly. A player's perception of a particular plane being over rated is just that, the player's perception and not related to the actual characteristics of the plane itself.
It's the same with most complaints about a plane being under modeled/over modeled. For example, the other day in the MA I noticed a player that was flying a Spitfire Mk IX complaining how under modeled the his Spitfire was compared to the A6M5 that just chased him and shot him down. When I asked the Spitfire player why he thought so, he said that in no way in real life could a Zeke chase down a Spitfire Mk IX and shoot one down. I think asked how high he was and he said he was on the deck when the Zeke bounced him from 8k.
The Spitfire player thought that since his plane is normally faster than a Zeke then it should be faster than the Zeke in all situations, regardless if the Zeke was able to use his altitude advantage to gain the necessary energy state to chase down the lower Spitfire. Because reality didn't mesh with the Spitfire player's perception of what his plane could do, he automatically assumed it was because his plane was under modeled and the Zeke was over modeled.
ack-ack
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I have to agree with this.
You really can't separate the plane/pilot dynamic. As I stated in my thread with this as the topic. The hardcoded data that makes up our cartoon planes only defines the outermost limits in terms of absolutes values (climbrate, turn-rate, speed etc). The only way you could possibly compare that objectively without the player dynamic involved would be a resource like Donzo's charts or the ones HTC provides. Once you add the player to the dynamic to the equation, purely objective comparison is actually impossible. Each person is incredibly unique in every way imaginable. That uniqueness injected into the cartoon plane's hardcoded parameters creates a practically infinite combination of results across the whole spectrum of the plane's core attributes.
Just as a basic example to build on what AKAK said...
I know two fabulous P51 pilots, they both get more than I could dream of getting out of that bird. But, the catch, and the most important thing is, they both fly the P51 in a completely and utterly different fashion. They both fly it beautifully, in a way that makes perfect sense to them personally, but to an outside observer there's very little in common with either except they are both extremely efficient killers. Now, if I am comparing the P51 to another plane like the Fw190D9, how would I do that objectively? I would have to try to find someone in the Fw190D9 that flew with the exact same mindset and profiency as one of those P51 pilots...Given the infinite uniqueness of the human element, that's completely impossible...You can't compare planes in absolute terms beyond what could be derived statistically from an Excel spreadsheet comprised of raw data and charts...
Hear Hear Zazen! Yup yup. While I'm a believer in planes as far as numbers go, some guys just get more out of them than I could. I think of Drex or Greebo in their F6F's. I can fly it just as fast, make it turn just as tight as those guys but I'm nowhere near as effective... nor do I think spending time in one would make me so.
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the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt :mad:. but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety
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the p-51 is overated (...) but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety
:rofl
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the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt :mad:. but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety
I think people have high expectations for the 51. Remember, low alt, short hops are not what the 51 was designed for but that's what the MA is all about.
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yeah, that's it exactly.
I wish I could make up straw-man fallacies as well as you. Will you teach me?
Good dodge of the question.
But since we are talking "fallacies" . . .
I just think the N1K is over-rated because it's not very fast and its 20mm ballistics are average. Secondly, the airplane only excels at furballing, and is more or less helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-aircraft engagement. The most effective N1K pilots are great shots who kill with the smallest window of opportunity; I know when I've run into them because I end up in the tower. :lol
1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast. Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best. So, who ever called them lazar accurate? Again, not over-rated.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics? :huh Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"? Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation? I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight? If not, please enlighten me.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective? :lol With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks. ;)
So, again, over-rated it isn't. It does many things well, especially in the MA environment. Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft. IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.
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Good dodge of the question.
But since we are talking "fallacies" . . .
1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast. Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best. So, who ever called them lazar accurate? Again, not over-rated.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics? :huh Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"? Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation? I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight? If not, please enlighten me.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective? :lol With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks. ;)
So, again, over-rated it isn't. It does many things well, especially in the MA environment. Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft. IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.
very nice E2....i believe every word
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the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt :mad:. but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety
Again, what better evidence of a player's perception clouding what the plane is actually capable of then NEARY's reply can one get?
ack-ack
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Good dodge of the question.
But since we are talking "fallacies" . . .
1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast. Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best. So, who ever called them lazar accurate? Again, not over-rated.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics? :huh Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"? Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation? I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight? If not, please enlighten me.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective? :lol With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks. ;)
So, again, over-rated it isn't. It does many things well, especially in the MA environment. Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft. IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.
(http://members.aol.com/plittle/StrawmanPoster.jpg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
A straw man fallacy is where you interpret what I say in the weakest possible way, just like you did above. What you're accusing me of is stating falsehoods, which is something entirely different from a fallacy. :rock
I am oh so sorry that I failed to take account of the ground attack capabilities of the N1K. I stand corrected. :rolleyes:
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(http://members.aol.com/plittle/StrawmanPoster.jpg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
A straw man fallacy is where you interpret what I say in the weakest possible way, just like you did above. What you're accusing me of is stating falsehoods, which is something entirely different from a fallacy. :rock
I am oh so sorry that I failed to take account of the ground attack capabilities of the N1K. I stand corrected. :rolleyes:
He answers with another dodge. :aok
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I just think the N1K is over-rated because it's not very fast and its 20mm ballistics are average. Secondly, the airplane only excels at furballing, and is more or less helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-aircraft engagement. The most effective N1K pilots are great shots who kill with the smallest window of opportunity; I know when I've run into them because I end up in the tower. :lol
Perhaps I should have added that it's in comparison to its popularity versus the weaknesses I outline above that I think the N1K is over-rated by a lot people. Is that more clear? It might not also merit an ENY of 5 save for the fact that so many people put themselves into a position where it's easy for a N1K to get a killing shot. I do it now and then myself, but know where to place the blame.
Besides the ground attack comments, which I don't think are a very big deal, I'll respond to your charges.
1) No one has ever accused the N1K of being fast. Therefore, its speed can not be over-rated.
Sure, I suppose not. That sounds logical, but pilot behavior in the arenas often contradicts sober rationality. Don't we love it when we see N1K pilots push their aircraft into situations where only a faster aircraft will do?
2) 20mm balistics are well-known to be average at best. So, who ever called them lazar accurate? Again, not over-rated.
The cannons are probably 50% of the reason most N1K pilots fly it, so you make my argument for me.
3a) Only good in a furball . . . Well, to some that is the only way the game should be played, so how does that make the plane "over-rated"?
If you think furballing is the raison d'etre of aircraft combat simulations then you are over-rating all aircraft that excel at it when they underperform in other areas. Personally, I think furballing has its place and can be a lot of fun, but I take a more rounded view of all the different ways that are fun to kill the enemy, e.g. ground attack, bomber intercept (N1K would be great if it weren't for speed), energy fighting, level bombing, bomber escort, etc. Moreover, the N1K may be great at furballing, but I wouldn't be too excited if I were assigned one in FSO, for example.
3b) The N1K carries enough ord to be a bona-fide threat against any GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous once.
3c) The N1K's guns are capable of easily killing any soft-skined GV, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous twice.
3d) The N1K's guns carry a lot of ammo and can easily take down buildings/troops/ords/dar/field guns/etc., ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous thrice.
3e) The N1K's guns carry a lot of fuel and ammo which makes it an excellent choice as a base-cap / vulcher, ergo your "furball only" comment is erroneous four times.
3f) There are other things the N1K can do that are not "furball related" but I think the point has been sufficiently made.
Agreed. It's a pity that it's not put to more use in these areas.
4a) Helpless against hit and run tactics? :huh Perhaps only slightly less than the HurriIIC.
4b) "Helpless vs. hit and run tactics in a multi-plane engagement"? Just what exactly is your definition of a plane that is NOT helpless in this situation? I would suspect you mean planes with enough speed to run away from . . . er . . . "extend and reset" the fight? If not, please enlighten me.
Yes, basically I mean it helps to have a faster airplane to defend against attackers that will only fight on their terms. That is, a flight of N1K's are in big trouble if they are engaged by F4U's or P-51s (insert faster plane here) that use energy fighting tactics. Save a lucky snap shot, their opposition won't let the N1K's get close enough for the cannons to matter. The Ki-84 is another story, and to me is superior to the N1K because it is faster, climbs better, and accelerates better; these are the more important attributes in multi-aircraft acm.
5) Need to be a great shot in a N1K for it to be effective? :lol With 900 cannon rounds, it suits my "spray-and-pray" style just fine, thanks. ;)
When I die to a N1K pilot it is usually because I let them have a tiny snap shot and they nail it. Short of that I don't give many opportunities for effective spray and pray shooting. It frequently happens that a N1K pilot sprays at 800 yards out while I extend away. Sometimes they take off an aileron or knock of a flap and I have to rtb, more frequently they miss or do superficial damage. Unless your target has poor SA, you need to be good at snapshots in the N1K because that's all good-SA pilots will give you, and some would say they won't even give you that.
So, again, over-rated it isn't. It does many things well, especially in the MA environment. Even I can get kills in it, which must mean it is a capable aircraft. IMO it earns it's ENY 5 rating honestly.
I think you're entitled to your opinion... but I see so many pilots in N1K's who don't know what the heck they're doing it causes me to suspect that they believe the aircraft will make up for their pilot-skill shortcomings, when in fact we all know the silver bullet they're looking for is the Spit16. :D
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Again, what better evidence of a player's perception clouding what the plane is actually capable of then NEARY's reply can one get?
ack-ack
You beat me to it.
Personally, I think the Hurricane II is the most overrated plane in the game. Those that laud it use its maneuverability and firepower as a crutch. From a performance standpoint, its a dog. Slow roll rate, Grandma like speed and acceleration, not much for the vertical...Sure, in a given situation it will hand you your lunch. IMHO, its nothing but a flying turret. Those guns are like putting a Corvette engine in a Model T. The firepower totally outclasses the aircraft they're mounted in.
Another aircraft I think is overrated for its MA assumed role is the Bf-110G2. Personally, I think the A-20 is a much more capable aircraft, with a huge bomb load for the type, and a little something for the fight after the bombs are off. 4,000 lbs of bombs is nearly a B-17 sortie. If the AH object damage model didn't reward cannon armed planes the way it does, the 110 would be relegated to scenarios and FSO only; trully a potential MA hangar queen.
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I think the N1K is overrated too... nobody should fly it. I will continue to do so, however, because i like a challenge... :devil
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Perhaps I should have added that it's in comparison to its popularity versus the weaknesses I outline above that I think the N1K is over-rated by a lot people. Is that more clear? It might not also merit an ENY of 5 save for the fact that so many people put themselves into a position where it's easy for a N1K to get a killing shot. I do it now and then myself, but know where to place the blame.
Besides the ground attack comments, which I don't think are a very big deal, I'll respond to your charges.
Sure, I suppose not. That sounds logical, but pilot behavior in the arenas often contradicts sober rationality. Don't we love it when we see N1K pilots push their aircraft into situations where only a faster aircraft will do?
The cannons are probably 50% of the reason most N1K pilots fly it, so you make my argument for me.
If you think furballing is the raison d'etre of aircraft combat simulations then you are over-rating all aircraft that excel at it when they underperform in other areas. Personally, I think furballing has its place and can be a lot of fun, but I take a more rounded view of all the different ways that are fun to kill the enemy, e.g. ground attack, bomber intercept (N1K would be great if it weren't for speed), energy fighting, level bombing, bomber escort, etc. Moreover, the N1K may be great at furballing, but I wouldn't be too excited if I were assigned one in FSO, for example.
Agreed. It's a pity that it's not put to more use in these areas.
Yes, basically I mean it helps to have a faster airplane to defend against attackers that will only fight on their terms. That is, a flight of N1K's are in big trouble if they are engaged by F4U's or P-51s (insert faster plane here) that use energy fighting tactics. Save a lucky snap shot, their opposition won't let the N1K's get close enough for the cannons to matter. The Ki-84 is another story, and to me is superior to the N1K because it is faster, climbs better, and accelerates better; these are the more important attributes in multi-aircraft acm.
When I die to a N1K pilot it is usually because I let them have a tiny snap shot and they nail it. Short of that I don't give many opportunities for effective spray and pray shooting. It frequently happens that a N1K pilot sprays at 800 yards out while I extend away. Sometimes they take off an aileron or knock of a flap and I have to rtb, more frequently they miss or do superficial damage. Unless your target has poor SA, you need to be good at snapshots in the N1K because that's all good-SA pilots will give you, and some would say they won't even give you that.
I think you're entitled to your opinion... but I see so many pilots in N1K's who don't know what the heck they're doing it causes me to suspect that they believe the aircraft will make up for their pilot-skill shortcomings, when in fact we all know the silver bullet they're looking for is the Spit16. :D
how is the nik overrated, 4 20mms with loads of ammo can turn like a zeke and dives pretty well for a japanese a/c, to me its one of the easiest planes to kill in..
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Exactly. A player's perception of a particular plane being over rated is just that, the player's perception and not related to the actual characteristics of the plane itself.
I kinda thought that was the point of the thread? Underlined word being the key.
The 'rating' is applied by the player based upon experience and hearsay.
Usually, youll see someone whining about uber SpixteenLa7Nik's. IMO, you could probably take the Niki out of that list. The La7 and the Spit16 are both bona fide threats.
Even a Niki driven by a decent stick has disadvantages which can be exploited. While aircraft like the La7 and the Spit16 are pretty much excellent in every category, the Niki is merely average, giving it no clear single superiority over other LW AC aside from hitting power which, as it were, it worthless if you cant gain a guns solution.
I'd up a Ki84 instead of an N1k without hesitation.
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I think the N1K is overrated too... nobody should fly it. I will continue to do so, however, because i like a challenge... :devil
Haha, furball, you are deadly in the N1K. I learned that the hard way the other day. I have a bad habit of underestimating N1K's because so many are flown by the clueless. :o
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P-51s are very overrated to me I usually beat them with my 109k-4 which is better in almost every single way in my opinion.
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P-51s are very overrated to me I usually beat them with my 109k-4 which is better in almost every single way in my opinion.
Read the plane/player dynamic stuff.
Just because you beat Ponies all day long in your K4 doesn't mean K4's are better planes than Ponies. I beat La7's all day long with my Typhoon. But, one look at Donzo's charts will show you conclusively the La7 is absolutely better in all performance areas and in some respects to a very large degree. The only reason I am successful in a Typhoon against most La7's is because they fly their La7 so badly compared to how I fly the Typhoon that they negate their inherent plane advantages relative to mine. Someone even vaguely close to my skill level in an La7 could and should easily hand me my arse other factors being equal. This is all especially true of the hugely popular planes like the La7, Pony, Niki, Spit etc. A far greater proportion of those are driven by people who just don't yet have the first foggy clue how to fight well...So, judging the plane's absolute performance based upon your results vs. them is like saying, "That arithmetic test was too easy!", but you were using a calculator...
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My statement on page 2 still stands.
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My statement on page 2 still stands.
Bromide.
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Bromide.
Actually, it's funny watching you dodge question after question. Your comebacks are now extremely predictable. My 2nd page statement still stands.
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FM2............. :D
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Just like the title says, what is the most over-rated aircraft in our plane set.
I'd go with the 262.
- oldman
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I'd go with the 262.
- oldman
That's actually kind of counter-intuitive but very true, at least from a fighter vs fighter perspective. The 262 reminds me of AW's Korea arena, the damn P51s were a serious pita to kill with the jets because of the enormous speed differential and the greater relative maneuverability of the Pony. Of course the jets were largely immune to the Pony due to the speed but that was little comfort. There were no HO's in AW, so the jets couldn't be HO'd down like we do to 262's in the MA
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I'd go with the 262.
- oldman
4 nose mounted 30mm cannons with ammo to spare and easily the best BnZ/Energy fighter in the game, and at the right speeds not a bad TnB either. Not something I'd ever consider over-rated.
<S>...-Gixer
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4 nose mounted 30mm cannons with ammo to spare and easily the best BnZ/Energy fighter in the game, and at the right speeds not a bad TnB either. Not something I'd ever consider over-rated.
<S>...-Gixer
I can count on one hand the number of people I even give a second thought in a 262...If it is truly that capable it's not used that way as far as I can tell...From my perspective, so long as you have even mediocre SA you are all but immune to a 262. I think I've been killed by a 262 once ever...It was GooseCH, he plucked me like a ripe fruit as I was wallowing at the top of a loop while roping someone, he zoomed up from the deck, he must have been going mach 1.
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My opinion is based on the specifications of the aircraft and whether it's over-rated. Wasn't including the monkey in the seat banking and yanking the stick trying to his best to rip the wings off or whine that a buff can kill his perk ride when he attacks from dead six..
Specification wise, nothing compares. Hence not over-rated imho.
<S>...-Gixer
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My opinion is based on the specifications of the aircraft and whether it's over-rated. Wasn't including the monkey in the seat banking and yanking the stick trying to his best to rip the wings off or whine that a buff can kill his perk ride when he attacks from dead six..
Specification wise, nothing compares. Hence not over-rated imho.
<S>...-Gixer
I think the 262 is underrated as a buff killer but overrated as an air superiority fighter. I did have someone turn-fight my Tempest with a 262 once though. I can't for the life of me remember who it was, that was an interesting experience. I was so shocked I kind of froze for a minute, we went a few turns before I got him...
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Yeah you keep coming back to the monkey in the seat thing. Pilots being equal I would never over rate a 262 or a Temp.
<S>...-Gixer
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4 nose mounted 30mm cannons with ammo to spare and easily the best BnZ/Energy fighter in the game, and at the right speeds not a bad TnB either. Not something I'd ever consider over-rated.
It could very well be that there are crack pilots who can use the 262 well....I've seen TrueKill stall-fight it effectively. But otherwise, so long as people know you're flying the thing nearby, it's just a matter of luck that it gets kills against fighters. Every 262 fighter kill I've ever seen (except for TK's!) has been against someone who didn't know the jet was coming after him.
The guns are lethal, of course, but the trajectory is lousy for any fighter, and dreadful for one as fast as the 262. I'm sure it's a great bomber killer, but otherwise it's a boring plane to fly and a boring plane to fly against.
- oldman
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The guns are lethal, of course, but the trajectory is lousy for any fighter, and dreadful for one as fast as the 262. I'm sure it's a great bomber killer, but otherwise it's a boring plane to fly and a boring plane to fly against.
I was flying that thing as my main ride during my last tour before name change, which somewhat forced me to fly it in situations where I normally wouldn't have taken a 262 to.
While of course a big part of my kills have been buffs and fighters with low SA, I often took it down low and dirty. Once you get the hang of it, you can actually quite good fight in it. Though the real fun always starts when another 262 shows up ;)
Of course the hefty perk price prevents most occasional Me 262 users (myself included) from trying such things.
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It could very well be that there are crack pilots who can use the 262 well....I've seen TrueKill stall-fight it effectively. But otherwise, so long as people know you're flying the thing nearby, it's just a matter of luck that it gets kills against fighters. Every 262 fighter kill I've ever seen (except for TK's!) has been against someone who didn't know the jet was coming after him.
The guns are lethal, of course, but the trajectory is lousy for any fighter, and dreadful for one as fast as the 262. I'm sure it's a great bomber killer, but otherwise it's a boring plane to fly and a boring plane to fly against.
- oldman
Yea, that's been more or less my experience. Once the area-wide 262 alert is sounded. Everyone is keeping an eye on him and he either gets HO'd or tries to kill fighters but people duck him and he eventually leaves in frustration or to pop some buffs he notices...
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During the last frame of Der Zweite Blitz in the last FSO four of my squadron flew 262s, and the guys I picked all had experience with the ship in the Mains. There were at least two or three occasions I lost kills because of the awful ballistics, rate of fire and muzzle velocity of the guns. The target flew right through my bullet-stream on the snapshot, and would have been dead if I'd had Brownings or Hispanos, or even the smaller German guns.
The only time a 262 in the Mains is dangerous is if you're already involved with another target, or you're in Buffs which can't maneuver out of the way.
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In the usual MA environment, I think the spit14 is overrated.
shamus
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Me too. Spit 14 is not much of a plane.
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That's a good example of when someone thinks others have over-rated an airplane. It can also happen that people do over-rate an airplane. An airplane might have a much bigger reputation than it is worth, e.g. the La-7, which is show by all of the "perk the La-7" threads. This phenomenon is not disputed by anyone.
Maybe we're wondering whether most people base their "over-rated" opinion from flying an airplane or getting shot down by them. I would have thought it was the latter, but you've made me think.
If anything, the La-7 is under-rated because of all the diddlywits that fly it around. It is the second best plane in the game. If the F4U's ever have their freakishly amazing slow speed stability removed... it would be the best plane.
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Going off some old experience, since I haven't played lately.
The 190s are all over-rated, at least on the boards. They'd rate somewhere between the B-24 and the A-20 as a fighter.
The Spit 14 is over-rated by the perk system, a 109K is just as good.
I actually think the Niki is over-rated. I personally can't stand it, it took a large whack with the nerf stick during the transition from AH1 to AH2.. and it has never been the same. In AH1 it was a bona-fide killer - I'd have taken it over any Spit/turny plane. AH2 it is meat for any Spit but the 14, the Hurri2c, and the Ki-84 (which is under-rated, imo.. although compared to a Spixteen no wonder nobody flies it.. or anything else).
The P-51 is over-rated, in my opinion. Unless they un-nerfed it since I stopped playing. Before it inherited the turning radius of a dump truck (or 190, take your pick), it was a good all-round fighter.
Thats all I can think of. Just my 2c.
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the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII
Maybe. But the p51 showed in such large numbers the opposing planes were overwhelmed en masse. If a large number of 190D's or KI-100's had been produced and showed up for the fight with trained pilots then it might have been a different story.
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The only time a 262 in the Mains is dangerous is if you're already involved with another target, or you're in Buffs which can't maneuver out of the way.
Yup, if there's 2+ following up on each other's passes that can be dangerous too for those with weaker SA or too involved in a fight to duck more than 1 effectively.
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I still say the Spitfire Mk 14 is far over-rated. It needs to be perked about as bad as the Spitfire Mk 9. The Spit14 only distances itself from other Spitfire Mk's over 22k alt, and even then the Spit16 can still do it all better 'cept for raw speed.
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There is nothing wrong with the gun on the Firefly. It was able to kill a Tiger with one shot in real life, no reason why it shouldn't be able to do it here.
ack-ack
After the Brits upgraded it. The tigers played with the Americans shermans like a toy.
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What's up with the 'special' club of people who say "there are no over-rated planes, only pilots?" :huh It's merely a cliche that sounds cool (to some), and amounts to the denial of the human psychological capacity for erring evaluation. Think about it. Asking whether or not some aircraft are over rated is not the same debate over whether it's the pilot or the plane. It's a question about the accuracy of human perception and judgement.
Actually they are 100% correct, the pilot is 80%+ of the equation. All WW2 fighter aircraft are very capable and the functional differences are suprisingly minimal. This easily documentable historically. For starters just look at the success of the hawk75 in French service, the Brewster in Finnish service and the P-39D in russian service. The Oscar flew for the Japanese for the entire war in front line service as well.
A seasoned pilot understands the strengths and weaknesses of any plane type and can work to maximize his success accordingly. While there are true functional differences that give one plane an advantage over an other (pure speed being the the easiest to recognize) the simple reality is that success is measured in a quantifiable way (kills). While the overall "kill band" is suprisingly "flat" across all plane types the variance between seasoned, average, new and uber pilots is exceptionally large.
The simple truth is that the pilot makes the plane deadly.
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the p-51 is overated because it was by far the best plane in WWII but in the game,it is easily outurned and terrible at low alt :mad:. but I think that it should be the way it is becuase if it was like it was in WWII then the arena's would be completly set off and the game would have no variety
I think you have a couple of major misconceptions working here....
1st your statement about the pony being "by far" the best plane of WW2 is very incorrect. The most famous quote about the pony is roughly as follows.
"what made the Pony special wasnt its performance, but the fact that it was performing over Berlin"
2nd the ponies overall flight envelope is quite good, it simply requires a more complete understanding of ACM then some others to be successful with...
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After the Brits upgraded it. The tigers played with the Americans shermans like a toy.
Notice that I was referring to and mentioned the Firefly, not the M4 Sherman.
ack-ack
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During the last frame of Der Zweite Blitz in the last FSO four of my squadron flew 262s, and the guys I picked all had experience with the ship in the Mains. There were at least two or three occasions I lost kills because of the awful ballistics, rate of fire and muzzle velocity of the guns. The target flew right through my bullet-stream on the snapshot, and would have been dead if I'd had Brownings or Hispanos, or even the smaller German guns.
The only time a 262 in the Mains is dangerous is if you're already involved with another target, or you're in Buffs which can't maneuver out of the way.
There is a knack to flying the 262 which comes with practice which makes it dangerous, typically you need to use it as an ambush fighter, not just pick - i have ambushed the same guys 4 or 5 times in the same sortie without them ever being engaged and they were on the lookout for me. At the end of it they didn't even know what i was in. Not saying i am great in it, just there is a way to do it in a 540mph jet. Use of terrain is important, i pretty much go into the attack on the deck to hide it, if you go in high then you are just a neon sign saying HO me. Generally the only time i bother killing cons who know i am there is when i rope them, which i only do if i know i am in a safe situation. 262 is surprisingly good at roping but timing is critical. I agree about targets flying through the bullet stream, have had that many times myself.
I set up my angles to get shot off at around 200 yards or so and change my convergence on the guns to get a shotgun effect. Only time i bother to fly scored as fighter is in 262, so i know my hit % is usually between 15 - 20% in it - give it a try.
<S>
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There is a knack to flying the 262 which comes with practice which makes it dangerous, typically you need to use it as an ambush fighter, not just pick - i have ambushed the same guys 4 or 5 times in the same sortie without them ever being engaged and they were on the lookout for me. At the end of it they didn't even know what i was in. Not saying i am great in it, just there is a way to do it in a 540mph jet. Use of terrain is important, i pretty much go into the attack on the deck to hide it, if you go in high then you are just a neon sign saying HO me. Generally the only time i bother killing cons who know i am there is when i rope them, which i only do if i know i am in a safe situation. 262 is surprisingly good at roping but timing is critical. I agree about targets flying through the bullet stream, have had that many times myself.
I set up my angles to get shot off at around 200 yards or so and change my convergence on the guns to get a shotgun effect. Only time i bother to fly scored as fighter is in 262, so i know my hit % is usually between 15 - 20% in it - give it a try.
<S>
I remember me you and moot on a 262 sweep...plague like.
sax duel kappa in his 262, its insane
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I remember me you and moot on a 262 sweep...plague like.
That was an awesome day, Moot and myself 3 or 4 15 + kill sorties each, was around A1 on NDIsles iirc. I think we then moved down south and i immediately got an oil leak from exploding buff drone and had to log because it was late :(
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The simple truth is that the pilot makes the plane deadly.
So very true.
There are no truly over-rated fighters in the game. There are, however, some over-rated pilots..... :uhoh
My regards,
Widewing
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
Filth would slap you around like a red headed step child.
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
Whos say that the "high scoring" pilots are any good?
Personally I prefer the A-20 and the P39D to the P-40B but they all work just fine....
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Yeah, lets not go too far with this "its the pilot, not the plane" business.
There are some matchups where the one player MUST make a grave mistake to give the fight to the other guy, while the other must simply avoid making mistakes.
Extreme example: Spit16 vrs a 190A5. Or a P-51/Jug/Dora that doesn't run. There are multiple ways for Spitfire to win this (In energy building or turning, it enjoys superiority, so any strategy you want to use is liable to work), and only a few ways for it to loose. (Really bad merge, failure to control throttle and overshooting, trying to HO the 190...hmmm....those are the only three I can think of.)
I notice is a tendency to take early-war kites, which often turn very well compared to their late war counterparts (Spit5 vrs. Spit16, 109F vrs 109K, P-40 vrs. P-51, you get the idea), and entice late war bricks into turning fights. Well sorry, horsepower (for whatever reason) is a harder advantage to use than turning superiority for most people in sim dogfighting. Once the higher wing-loaded plane is persuaded to t'n'b and the running windown is firmly shut, there is no "magic" to shooting it down.
No piloting can make any slower plane catch a faster one in the usual scenario where they WILL run if you latch on and running looks viable, of course.
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
Let me offer an analogy that highlights the flaw in your reasoning.
Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.
The master craftsman is limited to manual hand tools (saws, screw drivers and such).
The average guy gets to go to Lowes and buys every new power tool he desires.
Both set out to build you a bookshelf. You have to decide which bookshelf you must buy prior to it being made.
Which guy gets your money?
Tools don't make the craftsman, skill makes the craftsman.
The other guy is just a duffer with a garage full of tools. The tools don't make the bookshelf.
A poor craftsman will make a poor bookshelf, regardless of what tools he owns.
Stop by the TA tomorrow evening after 8 PM your time and we'll put the analogy to the test.
My regards,
Widewing
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
Well, it sure seems like you're equating good rank with good stick... Which is very often not true at all...
But, assuming you aren't... Though I can't speak for anyone, I would bet a big part of an La7 or K4's appeal to a good stick is that it gives them the ability to run people down and force them to fight... I'm kind of doubting the performance edge is their first priority. They don't need it.
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Imanner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
Well, I'm not claiming to be an ace but it sounds like a fun experiment. I'll fly the p40.*
*please, no chest thumping in response. I'm not claiming to be skilled in any way, I'm just willing to try it out for fun.
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The it's not the plane it's the stick argument is of course fairly true to a certain degree however more accurately the difference in the rides basically equates to easy mode vs hard mode. Top tier rides/perk rides = easy mode High eny rides = hard mode.
Easy mode you can make a dozen mistakes and still come out with a win, hard mode make one mistake and your back in the tower.
Of course the most common argument amongst experienced players for flying easy mode is "I always fly against the hordes" yes of course you do... :rolleyes:
<S>...-Gixer
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The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
I wouldn't call myself an Ace nor do I give a toss about low fighter scores. But I do only fly the Yak-9T which is far away from being a top tier ride. However I can do fairly well in it against on a regular basis against all the top tier rides you just mentioned with or without experienced sticks flying them.
While I agree to a point that some well known sticks that do fly nothing but perk rides or top tier rides do well because of their easy ride of choice I wouldn't say they might necessarily suck in something less. Majority probably would because they are use to making mistakes and getting away with it but a few will be deadly no matter what they fly.
<S>...-Gixer
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Double post...
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
"The quality of the crate matters little. Success depends upon who sits in it."
Baron Manfred von Richthofen
always knew the red baron was full of BS!
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In real life the pilot would make a huge amount more of a difference because the pilot's physical fitness comes into play. A shorter pilot who is in great shape can generally pull many more G's than a really tall couch potato.
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Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.
True enough. I think SmokingLoon's point was that, given roughly equal pilots, the planes make a huge difference.
- oldman
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"its the plane not the pilot" wrong
"its the pilot not the plane" wrong
keep hearing these, if you're comparing planes, assume equal pilots. if you're comparing pilots, assume equal planes. how hard is that? :rolleyes:
"its the plane and the pilot" :aok
got to agree with the 262, got roped by one once, otherwise never been killed by a 262 i knew was there.
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Let me offer an analogy that highlights the flaw in your reasoning.
Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.
The master craftsman is limited to manual hand tools (saws, screw drivers and such).
The average guy gets to go to Lowes and buys every new power tool he desires.
Both set out to build you a bookshelf. You have to decide which bookshelf you must buy prior to it being made.
Which guy gets your money?
Tools don't make the craftsman, skill makes the craftsman.
The other guy is just a duffer with a garage full of tools. The tools don't make the bookshelf.
A poor craftsman will make a poor bookshelf, regardless of what tools he owns.
Stop by the TA tomorrow evening after 8 PM your time and we'll put the analogy to the test.
My regards,
Widewing
Very valid point. However, we're talking about a sim/game and not building a bookshelf. Of course people are going to put their money on the maturity and expertise of a well seasoned wood worker vs the new or average guy with no experience. The same can be said for the surgeon who has been practicing for 20 years vs the new MD right out of med school. Everyone understands that arguement. Heck, I even preach the same thing when dealing with students, customers, and the public.
The one thing that simply can not be taught is experience.
My whole point is that in this sim/game the arguement that it is %100 the pilot and not at all the plane is simply incorrect. I'm simply annoyed that people actually believe that. If it were true, we'd see far more of the 30+ ENY fighters in the sky. People will take a "l337" plane and pick in a furball, saddle up, and shoot down a "lesser" plane and call it "skilz".
I'll look you up in the TA sometime. I'm actually heading to Canada this coming Sat to do some fishing for 4 days. :D
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I am sick and tired like so many others when it comes to people who shoot their mouths off saying "it is the pilot and not the plane". That is such BS. The plane used is far more a factor in this sim that ANY of the "aces" will admit to. Just how many aces take a P40B? A Hurricane I? A Spit I or V? A Bf109E? Stop the BS and own up to the facts: the plane in which a "player-pilot" flies is far more important than any of the "l337 skilz" some of you "slobberdonkeyz" tout. The "aces" in this sim/game will use the P51D, La7, Spit16, Nik2, Bf109k4, Typhoon, or any other plane that excels in some manner.
Take any "ace" and put them in a P40B and me in a Spit16 and I'll win 9 of 10 even with my vastly inferior abilities. NONE of the high score players (fighters) make their rank in a average or below average plane. NONE. Go look at the stats.
Stop the BS.
You won't find too many people admitting this... but you are absolutely right.
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Please, I don't mean this offensively, but please let me highlight two flaws in your reasoning.
You went with "avg. Joe" vrs. "Master Carpenter", which I don't think is a realistic cross-section. Fine, you say the "Master" sticks can shoot down any avg. Joe flying anything with any airplane in the set. I have reason to think that even this is not nessecarily the case, but I won't go there, got burned on that issue.
But still, on average fights of differential skill will be more like "Noob who doesn't even know the basics" vs. "Guy who does" and "Guy who knows basic ACM" vrs. "Guy who knows basic ACM but has a little more experience". At this level, you can have situations where a guy who could shoot down the other guy 90% of the time in a matched plane "duel" will instead loose 90% of the time in certain mismatches.
Interestingly, what you say about the difference between power tools and hand tools illuminates my point about EW vrs. LW aircraft. Power tools are not nessecarily designed to make a more finely crafted piece of furniture than hand-tools. What they do make for is greater speed and ease. This is similar to how LW planes are vastly superior for what historically the preffered attack (the surprise high-speed bounce) but not nessecarily superior or even equal for the prolonged engagement.
Let me offer an analogy that highlights the flaw in your reasoning.
Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.
The master craftsman is limited to manual hand tools (saws, screw drivers and such).
The average guy gets to go to Lowes and buys every new power tool he desires.
Both set out to build you a bookshelf. You have to decide which bookshelf you must buy prior to it being made.
Which guy gets your money?
Tools don't make the craftsman, skill makes the craftsman.
The other guy is just a duffer with a garage full of tools. The tools don't make the bookshelf.
A poor craftsman will make a poor bookshelf, regardless of what tools he owns.
Stop by the TA tomorrow evening after 8 PM your time and we'll put the analogy to the test.
My regards,
Widewing
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Back in January I tried out the 109E, Spit1, A6M2, P-40B, etc. Needless to say it was a very humbling experience. The only people I killed were the worst pilots who were dumb enough to turn with me or who had absolutely no SA whatsoever. In the late war rides I do slightly better. :P
Bnz, you did an impressive job of breaking down that analogy. The only thing I can add is this: Rather than power tools vs hand tools, the analogy should be that the master craftsman has dull, worn-out tools, and the merely competent craftsman has precision tools. :aok
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Ok, where the heck is Furball with his Val vs. K4 film...
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The simple truth is that one a basic level of competence is reached, the plane is far more important than the pilot.
It is possible to quibble over the details all you want, but the simple basic truth remains unchanged.
Is it impossible to kill a Spixteen in a P-40B? No, absolutely not. As long as the Spixteen pilot is absolutely brainless, it is certainly possible. If the Spixteen pilot has even an inkling of a clue, he will know that it almost doesn't matter what he does, he will be able to kill the P-40 - and it doesn't matter who is in the P-40. You could give a good teacher (Widewing, Ghosth.. don't really know any other trainers... but any patient person with a clue) a couple days with a rank noob, teach him how to seize every advantage (including the plane - i.e. an La-7 or Spixteen), put the guy in the DA with Leviathn and the rank noob will win 9 out of 10, as long as he keeps his wits about him. Levi would be bored out of his whoopee skull, but he would die, every time. About the best he could hope for would be a MAD HO joust, but even then the Spixteen packs 10x the firepower.. so I wouldn't even recommend that.
Why do you think some planes just don't see ANY use in the MAs? A good pilot can take an 'average' plane and do well in it. A great pilot can take a crappy plane with one good attribute and have moderate success in it. Certain planes (P-40B, Spit I, 109E, that crowd) don't even have a single good attribute to exploit against a mostly incompetent opponent in a 1945 plane, nor the firepower to take advantage of the countless mistakes the initial opponent will make.
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It is possible to quibble over the details all you want, but the simple basic truth remains unchanged.
Is it impossible to kill a Spixteen in a P-40B? No, absolutely not. As long as the Spixteen pilot is absolutely brainless, it is certainly possible. If the Spixteen pilot has even an inkling of a clue, he will know that it almost doesn't matter what he does, he will be able to kill the P-40 - and it doesn't matter who is in the P-40. You could give a good teacher (Widewing, Ghosth.. don't really know any other trainers... but any patient person with a clue) a couple days with a rank noob, teach him how to seize every advantage (including the plane - i.e. an La-7 or Spixteen), put the guy in the DA with Leviathn and the rank noob will win 9 out of 10, as long as he keeps his wits about him. Levi would be bored out of his whoopee skull, but he would die, every time. About the best he could hope for would be a MAD HO joust, but even then the Spixteen packs 10x the firepower.. so I wouldn't even recommend that.
Have you gone mad from being out of the game for so long? Fair enough you can teach someone to use an aircraft to its strengths, but there is no way to teach mastery of SA, timing, anticipation and ACM - where probably 75% of the people in AH fail. This is why aerobatic pilots do not always make good combat pilots.
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No, I'm not mad lol.
[q]mastery of SA, timing, anticipation and ACM - where probably 75% of the people in AH fail. This is why aerobatic pilots do not always make good combat pilots. [/q]
Actually, imo the area where most people 'fail' is hitting the target. "Mastery of SA" isn't necessary for one to have success as a 'fighter' 'pilot' ... especially not in AH. That 'art' has been dead for years here. Others have total 'mastery of SA' .. to the point where they will not even attempt a bore n zoom pass unless they hold every card and their 'opponent' is already fighting more than 2v1.
Timing, anticipation, and 'ACM' are important, but only if your plane doesn't have every advantage. You don't need to be a super ace to understand that if you stay in a luftberry long enough, your Spixteen will get around on the opponents 190 - or that if he breaks out of the circle, you can run him down before he gets away (unless your buddies get him first, that is).
If your plane holds all the cards, and you know enough to make use of them... even if you are the worst shot in the world you will eventually wear down the best pilot in a sufficiently crappier plane.
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Is it impossible to kill a Spixteen in a P-40B? No, absolutely not. As long as the Spixteen pilot is absolutely brainless, it is certainly possible. If the Spixteen pilot has even an inkling of a clue, he will know that it almost doesn't matter what he does, he will be able to kill the P-40 - and it doesn't matter who is in the P-40.
On the other hand, the Spixteen still has to shoot down the P-40B, which will require the Spixteen to get aggressive at some point, which will usually open up the chance of an overshoot. Speed = death almost as often as it = life.
The problem with P-40Bs, Spit I's, etc. is like you said, you can't count on killing anyone with a snapshot, so it might take a number of overshoots, which of course can be a pretty fine line to walk... After so many the other guy will eventually ping you no matter who you are.
Still, when you said, "Levi would be bored out of his whoopee skull" is probably the reason most guys don't up very much slower birds. People are timid enough when you both know you'll eventually catch them.
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All the "it's only the pilot" crap really gets old.
It's NOT. Folks that think it's ONLY the pilot must be a tad egotistical ("I and I alone did this, doesn't matter what I was flying, where we began the fight, that you were already ditched, etc...")
Aircraft have different capabilities, everybody knows this. However skilled the pilot is, the plane can handicap them or it can benefit them. You can put any old 2-weeker in a spit16 and they will get 5 kills before being killed. SA doesn't matter in a furball for them. They don't care if they die. Gunnery isn't an issue, as they can set convergence out to 600 and get 1-ping disable/kills with Hispanos.
I like to call it a multiplier. A spit16 has a very high skill multiplier. You can pull BS moves in this plane that no other plane can (essentially it is a crutch) and folks that ONLY fly the spit are not very capable in other rides. On the other hand you can take a very skilled pilot and put him in a spit16, and it still gives him all the benefits it gives other pilots, only this pilot doesn't NEED them. This pilot can also fly lesser craft equally as well.
Please note the pilot's skill is part of the equation, it is NOT the entire equation.
A pilot in a P-40B is not 1/20th as effective as he is in a spit16. Doesn't matter who he/she fights or how many or in which situation. The P-40B has a low multiplier (in this case it's a decimal, say 0.4 x <pilot_skill>) and can reduce the effect a pilot's skill has on the outcome of a fight.
Splitting hairs by saying "well if the ace is in the p-40b and the dweeb is in the spit16, the spit16 can't aim, has no SA, doesn't understand overshoots, etc etc" -- Splitting hairs won't ignore the fact that thsi P-40B is fubared and even a MORON in teh spit16 can out turn, out climb, out loop, out yoyo, out accelerate, out shoot, out fly the P-40B in every way shape and form based on the inherrent limitations of the aircraft itself.
And if you're still not convinced, put the ace in a C47 and the newbie in a spit16.
Saying "it's the pilot not the plane" may be nice for the real WW2 pilots that coined the phrase (?) and maybe applies in real life more than it ever will in this or any PC game. In Aces High it's just self-congratulating self-applauding egotism.
It's the same mentality as taking credit for bouncing the P-39D in a horde of 6-8 ENY5 planes, after the first 4 crash/auger trying to get him. I had this happen to me. I was the P-39D. The guy that got me took full credit for it. Me? I think none of them earned it. I didn't get an exact count but I believe an F6F and 2x spit16s augered just trying to get a shot on me (and I wasn't manuvering much, trying to run). The ones that crashed put more rounds into me than the guy that got the pilot kill, would have gotten the kill message if any had pulled up a hair sooner.
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:rofl
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Man, Krusty, I don't even know where to start with that one :)
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In a 1 vs 1 encounter the pilot is by far the most important factor, the second is the pilots gunnery. I almost never lose a 1 on 1 to an "average" pilot due to the plane or ACM...I simply cant capitalize on my shot(s). Now my gunnery is my weakest element but the reduced hitting pwer of the earlier birds makes this a pretty universal part of the equation and explains why the hurricane IIc does so well. If the C202 had 4 x 20mm it would have an eny of 5 :D
Again all you have to do is bring up the chart that shows the K/D numbers for each plane in a given tour, the spread is suprisingly thin. The statistical variation between the "average" spit driver and average high ENY plane is vairly minor. Now there is no question that a good pilot in a late war plane has the advantage, mostly of disengaging.
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I'm an average stick at best, and flying the old 38G I'm middle of the pack in terms of performance.
I'll take a 1 v 1 vs a Spit 16 with a new pilot vs a good stick in a P40/FM2 etc if all I want to do is win.
The new guy in a 16 doesn't know how to use it regardless of how uber you believe it is. When I die to a 16 its generally in a furball where he comes in from on high. I love fighting them 1 v 1, and again I know when it's a good stick in it, and when it's not. The pilot makes a huge difference. Most people, and this isn't a criticism, fly all kinds of birds and never learn to take them to the edge. Then there are those that find the edge of the envelope for a particular bird and they use it.
It's like the same old line about the P51 being nothing but a runner. Those folks have never run into the 51 guys who can turn that thing low and slow. Same goes for the Jug, 190 and any number of type cast BnZ birds.
I don't know that anyone has claimed it's only the pilot too. Would I have a better 'score' if I flew nothing but Spits? Absolutely, but there's no challenge in it for me. Nothing against Spits as I love Spits and the history of them, but it's not my bird in here.
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Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)? How about the Bf 109F-4? 1941 vintage, not uber by late war standards... I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone. How about a 109G-6 vs a 109K-4? How about a P-39Q vs a P-51D? Spit IX vs La-7?
If you guys are so damned sure the plane is more important than the pilot, I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern, stop in and test your theory.. Bring clergy.
My regards,
Widewing
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Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)?
Because it proves the point? :rofl
The 109F-4, on the other hand, is one of the best early war fighters. The other matchups you give are tough but competitive enough so that pilot skill still plays a significant roll.
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Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)? How about the Bf 109F-4? 1941 vintage, not uber by late war standards... I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone. How about a 109G-6 vs a 109K-4? How about a P-39Q vs a P-51D? Spit IX vs La-7?
If you guys are so damned sure the plane is more important than the pilot, I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern, stop in and test your theory.. Bring clergy.
My regards,
Widewing
Widewing:
Myself, I am going by a plane's attributes, not its model year. You actually proved the point I was stumbling around by carefully naming matchups where each and every supposedly "obsolete" fighter has a *strong* turning advantage on its late-war counterpart. Like I said, for whatever reason, a turning radius advantage is easier for the average sim player to use in 1v1s than a horsepower advantage. I mean, 109F? Whether it *should* be able to or not, the thing can actually make a smaller turning circle than a Spit9/8/16. In every case, the chief advantage of the late-war fighters you named is speed and ability to engage and disengage at will, not necessarily superiority in a "duel", which if you look at the path of fighter evolution, apparently had low priority as a design parameter.
Flip side of course is that it will require either serious misjudgement or really spot-on gunnery on an overshoot for the LW fighters here to ever be killed by their EW adversaries, since all of them can and IMO should :devil run when it becomes apparent things have gone sour.
The 1v1 duels where I think a truly competent stick will beat ANY kind of stick in the lesser plane most of the time are things like Spit8/16 vrs. P-39 or Fw-190A5, La7 vrs. P-51 or Dora at low altitude, etc. Notice that here the running option is closed...I don't consider a plane to be too horribly outclassed by a competitor even if the *only* advantage it enjoys is the ability to engage and disengage and will, since that is the "master" advantage in the chaotic multiple-bandit skies. But if we do take running out of the equation for the sake of argument, there are even more mismatches that pilot skill probably won't bridge against a competent adversary.
And once I get the parts in for my new "uber" AH computer and somehow assemble them correctly, I'll be glad to fly against you WW. You're a good fellow and I could use the training. :salute
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Why do you guys always go with the worst possible fighter, like the under-modeled P-40B (modeled as an overweight Tomahawk IIB)? How about the Bf 109F-4? 1941 vintage, not uber by late war standards... I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone. How about a 109G-6 vs a 109K-4? How about a P-39Q vs a P-51D? Spit IX vs La-7?
If you guys are so damned sure the plane is more important than the pilot, I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern, stop in and test your theory.. Bring clergy.
My regards,
Widewing
Anyone? So yes I'm here waiting, where are you? And I already killed all the clergy... :devil
<S>...-Gixer
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Anyone? So yes I'm here waiting, where are you? And I already killed all the clergy... :devil
<S>...-Gixer
I was a bit late arriving.. Had to secure the computer as a nasty Thunderstorm came through with 3/4" hail, then very heavy rain and high winds. I have a 12x24 aluminum awning over my patio... What a racket that hail made!
My regards,
Widewing
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In case it wasn't understood, these fights will employ dueling rules. Take off from same field in opposite directions. Fly out until out of icon range and reverse for merge. 5k cap prior to initial merge. After initial merge, intentionally extending beyond 2.0k while being pursued or running for more than 60 seconds is considered a forfeit. No bugging out, you have to stay and fight. Guns cold on initial merge.
My regards,
Widewing
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With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only".
So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB..
Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.
<S>...-Gixer
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1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight
ive been wondering about this for a while, the duelling rules really do force a certain kind of engagement, which will favour some aircraft (and some pilots too i guess.) looser rules would allow pilots and aircraft to use all of the tools in their box.
I'd also argue that guns-cold merging is a completely artificial rule, and one that doesn't help people to learn to deal with a potential HO situation which you will face, alot, in the MA (and indeed IRL.)
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it is more the pilot than the plane...but plane does play small role. vet pilot in spit is going to do well...and be bored. vet pilot in early war, "hard plane to fly", will still do well, get a few kills, have fun and possibly land. noob in spit will get a kill or two, may land and probably have fun. noob in the early war ride will get his arse kicked and probably quit the game...due to frustration.
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ive been wondering about this for a while, the duelling rules really do force a certain kind of engagement, which will favour some aircraft (and some pilots too i guess.) looser rules would allow pilots and aircraft to use all of the tools in their box.
I'd also argue that guns-cold merging is a completely artificial rule, and one that doesn't help people to learn to deal with a potential HO situation which you will face, alot, in the MA (and indeed IRL.)
I usually duel with no ho's period, and it is rare that I am not able to avoid the ho everyday playing.
With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only".
So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB..
Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.
<S>...-Gixer
The 1.5k rule does not reduce the fight to tnb only. Are you saying to need more than 1500 yards (4500feet) of alt on someone in order to kill them? It is still very possible to E fight with this limitation. As a matter of fact, i would like to see you extend higher than this if you really meet co alt, co E. Dueling rules are going to do one thing, show who the true winner is. Each pilot had the some E potential before the fight, and the one that utilizes these possibilities best will win the fight. This is by conserving E, or shedding some E to gain angles for the kill.
So what you really intended to say gixer was that if you have all the advantages, in an 'ubber' plane, you can kill anything?
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2k is absolutely plenty of room for an E fight...
The real issue here is pretty simple. Yes a fast late war plane can completely control a fight vs an early war plane (which is normally slower). So it is certainly possible to buzz bomb the other guy till you run out of ammo and RTB. The yak is probably one of if not the most optimized planes for AH outside of its ammo load. It's got great vis, is optimized for performance at 16k and has a formidable power band that doesnt depend on WEP. While its not an exceptional turner its got tremendous overall capability.
So yes an average or below average pilot in a late war bird can effectively B&Z a better stick in a early war plane with some segree of success. However, 95% of the time the seasoned vet will eventually lure the other guy in an MA envirornment.
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It could very well be that there are crack pilots who can use the 262 well....I've seen TrueKill stall-fight it effectively. But otherwise, so long as people know you're flying the thing nearby, it's just a matter of luck that it gets kills against fighters. Every 262 fighter kill I've ever seen (except for TK's!) has been against someone who didn't know the jet was coming after him.
The guns are lethal, of course, but the trajectory is lousy for any fighter, and dreadful for one as fast as the 262. I'm sure it's a great bomber killer, but otherwise it's a boring plane to fly and a boring plane to fly against.
- oldman
You have got to see Kappa fly the 262 ... pure magic.
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95% of the time the seasoned vet will eventually lure the other guy in an MA envirornment.
not exactly sure what you meant by "MA enviroment"...but in the above scenario, getting BnZ by "superior" plane, I am just patient and wait for the guy to get frustrated with missing and then pushing a bad angle...then get on top of him and kill him. That happens most of the time...the rest of the time they run out of ammo/fuel and run home.
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You have got to see Kappa fly the 262 ... pure magic.
I 2nd that. I have had tons of fun flying jets with kappa and fester...they are both amazing in those things. taught me quite a bit. :aok
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Jerkins you seem to of missed the point of my post completely. Im not going to repeat myself or go over the details of the fight and how it unfolded for your sake.
As for needing a ubber ride check my stats i only fly yaks and usually only the Yak T at that, and do kill anything on a regular basis more then they can kill me. So you might like to save the weak troll attempt for someone else.
<S>...-Gixer
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I usually duel with no ho's period, and it is rare that I am not able to avoid the ho everyday playing.
The 1.5k rule does not reduce the fight to tnb only. Are you saying to need more than 1500 yards (4500feet) of alt on someone in order to kill them? It is still very possible to E fight with this limitation. As a matter of fact, i would like to see you extend higher than this if you really meet co alt, co E. Dueling rules are going to do one thing, show who the true winner is. Each pilot had the some E potential before the fight, and the one that utilizes these possibilities best will win the fight. This is by conserving E, or shedding some E to gain angles for the kill.
So what you really intended to say gixer was that if you have all the advantages, in an 'ubber' plane, you can kill anything?
Limiting how much someone can climb has to be the most artificial rule ever, tailor made to help aircraft that climb poorly or which excel at flat turns. Extending and climbing are precisely the way that a Yak can best utilize its energy against a tighter turning aircraft. Gixer's knowledge of this fact is why he is successful in it.
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tailor made to help aircraft that climb poorly or which excel at flat turns.
hmm..most duels that I have been in have consisted of the same exact planes with same fuel and ammo loadouts...so that kind of negates that above statement.
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hmm..most duels that I have been in have consisted of the same exact planes with same fuel and ammo loadouts...so that kind of negates that above statement.
Ummmmm :huh, yeah, we're not assuming that both aircraft are the same type.
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With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only".
So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB..
Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.
<S>...-Gixer
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Hey, I know I'm rusty and all... but 9 out of 10?
:cry
-- Todd/Leviathn
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With respect Widewing, but in that case when you challenge everyone you should of stated "I'll fly that against any late war fighter flown by anyone." but also added "within DA rules only".
So.. Energy fighting you in vertical, not BnZ, I was trying to keep it close while maintaining an energy advantage without extending beyond 2k just for the sake of fun.. Then after a few passes as I was extending in vertical again through about 1.3k you added DA rules telling me 1.5k not 2k which basically reduces the scenario to a TnB fight, hence I landed. Not because I didn't want to TnB a yak against your F4 but because you added the rules mid way which changed the scenario from an open challenge/gauntlet as per your initial thread comments to a DA fight within limits suiting TnB..
Anyway no big deal, just that I took the time out to drop in say hello and hang around for a while which I haven't done in the TA for years.
<S>...-Gixer
I mentioned dueling rules in text earlier and assumed you understood. I guess I was incorrect. As I said at the time, these fights are not about bragging rights or ego, they are about trying some new things and having fun.
As it was, you flew out about 10 to 15 miles while I circled the field at 200 mph waiting and answering other player's questions in text. When you finally came back, I eventually spotted you on my six 4k distant closing at high speed. I realized you were attacking, so I did an off angle split-S to build a little E for a merge. We passed, I reversed and you extended out more than 4k. I even elected to keep a full drop tank because you had loaded excessive fuel. After the initial merge, I would meet you nose on nose, reverse and chase you while you extended out, sometimes in excess of 2k. On one HO merge, I tried to angle off a bit, but you face-shot me. On the next merge, I returned the favor. After a while, it got rather boring, so I started following you up to see if I could milk my E enough to catch you. I finally had pitched off the drop tank when it was obvious that you weren't going to maneuver with me. After a while, I was able equalize E states anyway, on your six 500 yards behind. I then stated that I was breaking left and offered you a clean re-merge. However, you elected to land anyway.
Had I realized what kind of a fight you had in mind, I would have climbed out on an opposite heading and met you Co-Alt with some E built up. I can play the high speed game as well as anyone. However, I suspect that the result would have been merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas.
I would be willing to trade planes with you and duel, perfectly content to maneuver fight in a Yak against a 109F. The Yak-9U can give the 109F a very hard fight, even within dueling rules.
I started film after the second merge. The film is exactly 10 minutes long. I'll send you a link to it via PM if you want a copy.
Next time, lets concentrate on mixing it up more as it'll be more fun and you may find that the Yak can fight effectively close-in, even against a 109F. As I said, we can trade planes, or I'll switch up to something else, like a P-39. Spend a few hours of furballing with the Yak and you may find that it's fun, and not as boring as the high speed, low risk style. It's the TA, you can go for broke and risk getting whacked, as there's no penalty.
Well, I do appreciate you coming by and hope you come again, and take the risk of a few knife fights. It'll be fun, regardless of outcome.
My regards,
Widewing
(edited for typo)
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Limiting how much someone can climb has to be the most artificial rule ever, tailor made to help aircraft that climb poorly or which excel at flat turns. Extending and climbing are precisely the way that a Yak can best utilize its energy against a tighter turning aircraft. Gixer's knowledge of this fact is why he is successful in it.
You really think that you could get an altidtude advantage of 4500 feet when meeting head on at same alt. IMO this is not at all likely, even k4 vs d3a.
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There is, IMHO, a big difference between a plane running beyond 1.5, 2, 2.5K, whatever the specification is, with the opposition on his tail, and vertical situations.
If you make a pass on a guy carrying some speed, he does a hard flat break, you go vert, he simultaneosly decides to dive for some airspeed, the distance can EASILY open up to even 2.5K before zoomer can observe what is happening and roll back in on him. This is neither player's fault, and cannot be considered a foul.
And I'm sorry, I think 1.5K IS abit close sometimes for setting up the next pass in some situations. One of the cardinal rule of boom and zoom/E fighting tactics IMO is don't make your pass in a steep dive upon the opponent, unless he is a roped dope. If you do, he pulls up and zooms, after you take the shot he is on your high six and you've sacrificed advantage. It seems to me in certain situations and aircraft, you simply wouldn't have enough room to dive back down, develop some decent smash, AND round out before you come into gun range (so you would be level-to-climbing at the time of the shot), if you were limited to never going beyond 1.5K absolute distance from the foe.
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You really think that you could get an altidtude advantage of 4500 feet when meeting head on at same alt. IMO this is not at all likely, even k4 vs d3a.
Um, my AHII computer isin't working right now, so I can't test things. Up an F4U-4, run it on WEP until you reach its max level cruising speed, then gently point her straight up and hold there until you have to level out to avoid the stall. Then do the same thing with a Hurricane IIC. Post the results if you don't mind, and we'll thank you sir.
I'm will to bet that the F4U-4 can pick up at least an extra ~4,000 feet over the Hurri, if the zoom is milked skillfully enough.
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Had I realized what kind of a fight you had in mind, I would have climbed out on an opposite heading and met you Co-Alt with some E built up. I can play the high speed game as well as anyone. However, I suspect that the result would have been merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas.
My regards,
Widewing
That's why I asked in the tower before hand loaded up 100% gas and took off from a base outside from where you were as you had already taken off, I was under the assumption that it was an open fight as per your original thread and challenge. I then didn't expect you to take off from the base I had already left from minutes earlier and for the fight to be reduced to a DA scenario (with even reduced extension rules from normal) after the fight had been going for a few minutes with shots and passes made. And it would never of been a "merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas." that's ridiculous given we are both experienced that doesn't even happen to me in the MA when I purposely meet up with experienced sticks whether they are in a C-Hog or IIC.
As for the recollection as to how the fight unfolded I decided to leave that out of this thread completely (and continue to do so) as a matter of respect. So why unnessarily start your own version of how the fight unfolded and brag about how you got bored and then able to equal E? Especially when you state that TA isn't about bragging rights?
I respect you from your contribution to this community and time with the TA, I expect the same in return given I'm no newbie and not inexperienced especially when it comes to Yaks. Main reason I fly the Yak T is to give others something different from the normal dweeb rides to fight against while giving myself a challenge at the same time. I could just as easily join the majority and fly a low eny/easy mode fighter.
If anyone wants to challenge me they can fly what ever they want. But do me a favour, leave the DA rules at the door and meet me in the MA. Given both experienced sticks a list of rules aren't needed for a good competitive fight no matter the aircraft mix,alt or what ever. Save it for the trainees.
<S>...-Gixer
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That's why I asked in the tower before hand loaded up 100% gas and took off from a base outside from where you were as you had already taken off, I was under the assumption that it was an open fight as per your original thread and challenge. I then didn't expect you to take off from the base I had already left from minutes earlier and for the fight to be reduced to a DA scenario (with even reduced extension rules from normal) after the fight had been going for a few minutes with shots and passes made. And it would never of been a "merge/extend/merge/extend until one of us ran out of gas." that's ridiculous given we are both experienced that doesn't even happen to me in the MA when I purposely meet up with experienced sticks whether they are in a C-Hog or IIC.
As for the recollection as to how the fight unfolded I decided to leave that out of this thread completely (and continue to do so) as a matter of respect. So why unnessarily start your own version of how the fight unfolded and brag about how you got bored and then able to equal E? Especially when you state that TA isn't about bragging rights?
I respect you from your contribution to this community and time with the TA, I expect the same in return given I'm no newbie and not inexperienced especially when it comes to Yaks. Main reason I fly the Yak T is to give others something different from the normal dweeb rides to fight against while giving myself a challenge at the same time. I could just as easily join the majority and fly a low eny/easy mode fighter.
If anyone wants to challenge me they can fly what ever they want. But do me a favour, leave the DA rules at the door and meet me in the MA. Given both experienced sticks a list of rules aren't needed for a good competitive fight no matter the aircraft mix,alt or what ever. Save it for the trainees.
<S>...-Gixer
You asked me if field 127 was okay. I said that it was and immediately went there. You had already taken off heading West, I took off heading East. You disappeared, I waited and circled...
Gixer, as long as I've been playing Aces High, a challenge is a duel, duels have rules... Clearly, there was a misunderstanding at the outset the other night. However, you didn't hesitate to take advantage of it. Which is why there are dueling rules. The purpose of the rules is to eliminate the variables (that many pilots would fudge to get an advantage). Co-E, Co-Alt merge isolates the planes and pilots and results in a fight being fair. I guess you don't like an even-up meeting. Why not? You're afraid to fight the 109F under those circumstances because it out-turns the Yak (easily). So what, who says you have to stall-fight? Last night you said that you were E-fighting. Unfortunately, it was standard BnZ, having begun with a huge E advantage. If you really knew how to E-fight the Yak, you wouldn't be afraid to duel in it. I mean, on the first merge, where you had at least 100 mph on me, you extended halfway to Auckland before you turned back. A quick double immelman would have placed you directly over me with every advantage. Instead, you ran out nearly 3 miles. And yes, it was boring. Like watching paint dry. I kept the drop tank, hoping it would encourage you to saddle-up and fight. No one is bragging here, merely stating fact.
There's much more to air combat than cherry picking with a 37mm cannon. Dueling will teach you how to fight effectively under any circumstances. The one thing you won't like is the fact that you're going to shot to pieces as part of the learning curve. For some reason, I suspect that you can't let that happen, thus you won't duel. However, getting beat up is part of the learning process. You have to be willing to be vulnerable and get hammered for a while. There's no other way to learn. Do you think the better sticks just popped up out of the blue? They all paid their dues while learning. Stop by the TA again, leave your ego in the tower and have some fun.
My regards,
Widewing
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There's much more to air combat than cherry picking with a 37mm cannon. Dueling will teach you how to fight effectively under any circumstances. The one thing you won't like is the fact that you're going to shot to pieces as part of the learning curve. For some reason, I suspect that you can't let that happen, thus you won't duel. However, getting beat up is part of the learning process. You have to be willing to be vulnerable and get hammered for a while. There's no other way to learn. Do you think the better sticks just popped up out of the blue? They all paid their dues while learning. Stop by the TA again, leave your ego in the tower and have some fun.
My regards,
Widewing
You assume far to much Widewing on how I fly and fight in the Yak-9T if you think I don't duel and just use the 37mm to cherry pick, that's the most ridiculous and arrogant claim I've had anyone make towards me yet. Maybe that's my fault for never posting film, or hanging out in the training thread, I don't because I'm not interested in ego trips. Though a few have asked me to send films directly to them which I often do.
Problem is I rarely fly during your peek times due to the time difference, if you flew on a regular basis off peek you'd have a different opinion of me through your own experience and from others rather then via assumptions.
No I won't be visiting your sandpit in the TA or DA again, I don't need a staged arena to setup up 1v1 fights. If you'd like to meet PM if you see me in the MA and fly what you want I'll be in the Yak.
<S>...-Gixer
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You assume far to much Widewing on how I fly and fight in the Yak-9T if you think I just use the 37mm to cherry pick, that's the most ridiculous and arrogant claim I've had anyone make towards me yet. Maybe that's my fault for never posting film, or hanging out in the training thread, I don't because I'm not interested in ego trips. Though a few have asked me to send films directly to them which I often do.
Problem is I rarely fly during your peek times due to the time difference, if you flew on a regular basis off peek you'd have a different opinion of me through your own experience and from others rather then via assumptions.
No I won't be visiting your sandpit in the TA or DA again, I don't need a staged arena to setup up 1v1 fights. If you'd like to meet PM if you see me in the MA and fly what you want I'll be in the Yak.
<S>...-Gixer
Careful Gixer, dont get into this with WW, he'd whup your butt. From the sounds of it, he pointed out the obvious that you could not do. Learning your ACM in a fight where you're equal or where you have LESS of an advantage is the best way to learn. It seems you dont wanna try to fight unless you actually HAVE an advantage. In a yak, you should be takin on spitties higher than you, taking on 109F's co-alt so you could LEARN how to fight a plane more maneuverable than you.
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And your making your assumptions from one side of the story.
<S>...-Gixer
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And your making your assumptions from one side of the story.
<S>...-Gixer
Yes, because WideWing has been 100% true to his word and backed up everything he has ever said with facts and data. He's an all around damn good pilot. He's the only guy I've seen land 8+ kills in a P-39D.
Enough on my part.
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You assume far to much Widewing on how I fly and fight in the Yak-9T if you think I don't duel and just use the 37mm to cherry pick, that's the most ridiculous and arrogant claim I've had anyone make towards me yet. Maybe that's my fault for never posting film, or hanging out in the training thread, I don't because I'm not interested in ego trips. Though a few have asked me to send films directly to them which I often do.
Problem is I rarely fly during your peek times due to the time difference, if you flew on a regular basis off peek you'd have a different opinion of me through your own experience and from others rather then via assumptions.
No I won't be visiting your sandpit in the TA or DA again, I don't need a staged arena to setup up 1v1 fights. If you'd like to meet PM if you see me in the MA and fly what you want I'll be in the Yak.
<S>...-Gixer
You may be right, I may be assuming too much. However, I can see no other explanation of your terror for dueling under controlled circumstances, where all things are close to equal at the start. The conclusion people will draw is that you have no confidence that you could win and therefore, refuse to partake. The concept I'm trying to present is that winning should not be a goal. Learning and having fun should be the sole purpose. When I was trying to master ACM, I fought duels with pilots who were vastly better than I was. They kicked my butt. However, I learned and had fun doing it. I still duel with the best in the game and having fun is still the primary goal. I win some and lose some, but they're all fun.
I'm just trying to get you to loosen up, forget about protecting a self-image, have fun and learn a few things about what you can do and not do. My goodness, I take away something positive from every fight. Win, lose or draw, you can always learn something from a good duel.
When I work with someone I haven't seen fly before, I watch them carefully for errors, be they tactics, SA, plane handling and especially ACM. If I see something, I tell them and offer advice. My goal isn't to beat them. My goal is to help get to a level where they can beat me. If I duel with someone who proves to be better than me, I study the film and figure out where they gained an advantage so that next time, I'll have an effective counter. I won't sulk about getting beat, because it's an opportunity to improve. There's no stigma associated with getting beat in a fair fight. To be successful, one must have the self-confidence to be willing to fail.
I'm going to speak to everyone who is reading this thread....
I often fly with guys who come to the TA to improve their ACM skills. Many of these guys have a good understanding of ACM and need little coaching in that regard. Where they fall short is the lack of ability to fly their plane to the edge of the envelop and remain there. They will never learn that in the MA. Never. They learn that by dueling. Once they learn how to fly to the absolute limit of the aircraft, being able to exploit all of its strengths and avoid it's weaknesses, they see a corresponding improvement in their MA flying. One of these guys flies the Hellcat as his main ride. He's spent many hours practicing via duels. He no longer dreads Spitfires, Nikis and La-7s. He now knows that unless the pilots of these fighters are exceptional, he can beat them at their own game. In point of fact, he usually does.
There have been many exceptional pilots who came through the TA. They have been well schooled by trainers and volunteer pilots like 2bighorn and Batfink to name only a couple. These young pilots, fellows like TonyJoey and 0100, are solid representatives of the future of Aces High. They are already good enough to beat 99% of those flying AH2. They learned how to duel early in their AH2 experience. They went to the TA and DA and battled with the best they could find. They took their licks, but learned and steadily improved. When I duel with these guys, I can't give them an inch, or they'll take advantage of it and make me pay.
There will always be differences in people and the level to which they can realistically rise. Some are naturally talented, while others struggle to achieve a high level. Regardless of which category you find yourself in, you will always improve you skills by taking the time to duel. Dueling helps teach you basic ACM. It teaches you plane control. It teaches you the skills you need to be successful fighting in airplanes. From there, you learn SA skills and fighting as a team. We hold clinics in the TA for building those skills. We will be holding one on August 17th. To be a well rounded pilot, dueling is an essential course. Don't be afraid of it. If Aces High had a formal curriculum, dueling would be a prerequisite.
My regards,
Widewing
(editing for spelling)
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SkyRock<-----owns Gixer, my spitmkI against his yak9t! :t
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SkyRock<-----owns Gixer, my spitmkI against his yak9t! :t
:lol
You'll have to cast your bait far better then that.
<S>...-Gixer
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I'd like to see a quasi-MA experience between WW and Gixer... Only rule being coalt until icon on initial merge. Throw out every other dueling rule there is. If you want to extend 6k, fine. If you want to HO on any merge, even the first, fine. Anything you can do in the MA, you can do in this fight, but you both stay coalt until icon range on the first merge, to replicate a coalt MA engagement.
BUT... The thing is... Gixer has to shoot WW down. He cannot run him out of gas. If WW runs out of gas, Gixer loses. If Gixer runs out of gas, Gixer loses. If either pilot runs out of gas due to a leak on an otherwise perfectly fine aircraft, it's a draw. The late-war ride must destroy the early-war bird.
Do this for a best of three, and then switch aircraft. See if there are differences.
I'm not familiar with the disparity between fuel loads of an 109F and a Yak, but pick something that gives roughly the same amount of time.
I think this would be a fair way to do this. Gixer doesn't feel like he's being put into a situation he has little experience with, and yet he still has to destroy WW, thus compelling him to go onto the offensive sooner or later.
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I think this would be a fair way to do this. Gixer doesn't feel like he's being put into a situation he has little experience with, and yet he still has to destroy WW, thus compelling him to go onto the offensive sooner or later.
The problem is, I'd fall asleep....
My regards,
Widewing
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I can see no other explanation of your terror for dueling under controlled circumstances, where all things are close to equal at the start. The conclusion people will draw is that you have no confidence that you could win and therefore, refuse to partake.
Ok. this is about your fourth or fifth reply in a row where for some reason you've found it necessary to try and ridicule me in one way or another with your assumptions or version of events.. One thing is evident you are far better at testing cartoon planes then psycho analysing others.
If I was too timid to duel I wouldnt be flying a high eny fighter like the Yak T in the LW arena. At least give some credit for having the dedication to stick with one ride each tour and one that isn't some uber low tier or perk ride. You might think you can teach me a thing or two. But since I'm no newbie, at least give me some respect and ask around before slagging me off, just as you might want to check before assuming I only use the 37mm to cherry pick.
You could probably start off with Dastrdly for his opinion as he has duelled against me 1v1 in the MA more then anyone over the past few months.. Then maybe Grim and almost anyone that frequently spends time in LWA off peek. To state that I'm too timid or worried about my ego or scared of losing a 1v1 fight in the staged/porked environment of the TA or DA of all places is laughable to the extreme. And probably the second or third most pathetic statement I've ever heard.
I'm out of this discussion. It's would rate as one of the most disappointing, not for your challange itself and outcome but for your remarks. Especially as I haven't responded in any disrespectful manor towards you in this thread or any other in the past, or argued my point as to how the fight played out.. If you wish to carry on the discussion or duel PM me. I might be able to work around the time difference to meet up before I go on leave in September.
Otherwise see you in the MA sometime and don't forget the clergy.
<S>...-Gixer
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The problem is, I'd fall asleep....
My regards,
Widewing
Well, you would have to raid your local preschool for some ritalin, but that's a small price to pay in the name of science :)
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If I was too timid to duel I wouldnt be flying a high eny fighter like the Yak T in the LW arena. At least give some credit for having the dedication to stick with one ride each tour and one that isn't some uber low tier or perk ride. You might think you can teach me a thing or two. But since I'm no newbie, at least give me some respect and ask around before slagging me off, just as you might want to check before assuming I only use the 37mm to cherry pick.
If you weren't terrified to duel in a Yak, you'd accept the offer, and not spend four paragraphs rationalizing not doing it. There's nothing else to say.
My regards,
Widewing
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Gixer, I'm curious... Why do you keep putting MA and duel in the same sentence?
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If you weren't terrified to duel in a Yak, you'd accept the offer, and not spend four paragraphs rationalizing not doing it. There's nothing else to say.
My regards,
Widewing
Ok, seems you missed it the first time completely so once more in bold.
If you wish to carry on the discussion or duel PM me. I might be able to work around the time difference to meet up before I go on leave in September.
<S>...-Gixer
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Gixer, I'm curious... Why do you keep putting MA and duel in the same sentence?
Donkey if you want to discuss further open a thread in General as I'm out of this one. But just to respond quickly since I like Donkeys...
Simple reason that's what you do in the MA isn't it? Duel?? I have a number of players and squads that I seek out or they seek me out in the MA away from the numbers. Most often though we can find each other (which keeps an element of suprise and SA to the fight) on the map and go a few rounds without any prior communication or a lame pre-staged/arranged duel with rules.. Neither of us feel it's necessary to leave the MA and go to the DA just to have a series of good 1v1 fights up to 1v3 fights.
There is also a few of us that won't attack each other if recognised if they are already engaged with someone, or even attack if they are from a disadvantaged position (obviously flying something that isnt common is a help). Just because it's the MA doesn't mean it has to be a horde/pick/vulch + HOs every sortie. There are plenty of good fights to be found and plenty that fly away from the hordes to hunt and fight against. That's why I fly away from hordes theirs and mine and why I fly in between dars not over enemy fields or mine.
Just because there is a DA with it's porked environmental changes and rules doesn't mean you have to use the thing any time you wish to challenge yourself against a good player or squad. Hence why I use duel and MA in the same sentence. I see no reason to leave the MA for a duel and prefer to duel in the same environment with settings, unknown factor and SA that I normally fly in. If you see me in the MA and want to meet up just PM me and fly what ever you want. More likely or not it doesn't seem to take others long to know where I am and then start looking unless I find you first..
<S>...-Gixer
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Gixer, I'm curious... Why do you keep putting MA and duel in the same sentence?
The same reason Widewing puts "pilot > plane" and "duel rules" in the same sentence.
I was purposely reserving my opinions on this thread, since I've pretty much anticipated the whole thing would eventually boil down to Trial by Combat, so to speak. In any case, the differences in opinion between WW and Gixer is basically how one views under which specific conditions, or, at a certain point during combat either the pilot or the plane becomes more important.
WW puts pilots over planes, and naturally assumes the "DA rules" which pretty much forces a plane under specific circumstances where one may gain an advantage over the other, or vice versa. Frankly, I view it as meaningless. Like mentioned by others before me, the ability to engage and disengage at will forces a "may not win, but will definately live to see another day" insurance upon the other, and basically this factor alone is more important than anything a "pilot skill" factor can add to the benefits of the individual pilot.
During the depiction of what transpired during Gixer and WW's duel, it is pretty much evident there was a disagreement on just how far out a duelist may "extend". Now, "extension", is in truth, the easiest way for a novice pilot to utilize a speed (and/or climb) advantage. A more skillful pilot may be able to transform a performance advantage into a more aggressive form of direct combat advantage through sophisticated E-fighting techniques. However, a lesser pilot with limited understanding in ACM may not be able to do such things, but still can utilize it in the simplest and most effective manner possible - extend, grab, and engage with massive speed/alt advantage, every time. "DA rules" cancels that all out.
Maybe things went on as Gixer described, or maybe WW was right in his depiction. I have no idea. However, one thing for certain is that if one pilot is given a plane with significant performance advantage, and were not restrained to any "DA rules" limitations on how he wants to fight (thus, having the luxury to take all the time and distance he wants), I'd bet my money on the winner being the one with the better plane.
The very fact that a 1vs1 in a DA does indeed limit all the "outside factors", and makes it a "true test of pilot skill", almost automatically justifies the reasoning that the plane is over the pilot. MA is all about "outside factors". Many of those can be offset by pilot skill, but those that can't, almost certainly leads to death. On the other hand, anything that can be offset by pilot skill, can be as much easily offset by being in a superior plane - including those that pilot skill can't do anything about.
(Now this, is the important part:)
So yes, pilot skill would indeed be more important when you are bound to rules and regulations which force you - often the lesser pilot - to voluntarily abstain any rights to use those very traits a plane holds that will almost 100% ensure at least a stalemate, or, if you are forced into a situation where every single advantage you may hold has already been neutralized, and thus, the only chance to survival may rely on your pure piloting skills.
However,
the whole point of being in a superior plane, is to be able to evade such situations or circumstances from happening in the first place... and when it still does happen, being able to escape from it comfortably and easily, without having to be drawn into a fight which you are not confident enough to be sure that you will win.
Hence, "speed is king", and "plane > pilot".
The evidence?
Go to the MA, and look carefully where a famous/named veteran flies around in his 'inferior' plane, when you meet one. They fly in areas which many of the factors (that they cannot overcome in the inferior plane they are flying), is already removed, and thus, can force a "DA-ish" battle to actually ensue. Utmost respect to WW and his skill, but really, do you see him flying his SBD in a vulched situation? Outnumbered? Cornered? Enemy airsuperioriy? Do you see Doom and his Fw190A-5 engaging someone at equal altitudes? Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
No, they don't. It would be foolish of them to do so. They are in fact, taking the logical course of action.
Whether they may realize it or not, they naturally stay away from situations where their esteemed "piloting skill" might not be useful at all. They even have a name for it - they call it "SA". And what does the SA tell them?
"Stay away from situations where some n00bs in their super-planes might actually be able to overrun you, because, pilot skill can't do squat under situations which you cannot control."
Since they are not in planes that give out any insurances, they must take every measure possible to prevent situations they cannot offset with pilot skill from happening - hence, the careful selection of fighting grounds. They must also force the lesser pilot in a superior plane into an extreme situation they cannot escape from - hence, the massive-alt advantage some of the "I use only mid-war planes" types often display in the MA.
Fortunately for the n00b, if only he has only about 1/10th of the SA levels a veteran may have, many of those situation that cannot be controlled by individual skill, can be controlled by the plane. He simply points down, runs away - before being picked off by a veteran in a mid-war plane 5k above him dives down, or, deny him the fight and blow past by his plane when at co-alt. If he feels confident about his firepower, he may try the HO too - hence, the daily whinings of veterans on these boards of how the MA is all full of HOers and runners ...
....whom they'd dearly love to spank around, but cannot, due to the fact that those dang Hoers and runners are usually in superior planes and runs away a lot. Upping something like a La-7 of their own, is like a signing a confession that they can't catch these runners and HOers despite their pilot skill.. so they can't do anything about it. Instead, they choose to downplay the situation at hand, profess that flying La-7s are no fun, and start a campaign on how newbies should stay away from superplanes and "learn" more ACM from them - by fighting to the death every time, and becomming cannon-fodder all the time. Right this way n00bs - come and get shot down by me all the time, and you'll learn something!
Unfortunately, most n00bs tend to say, "no thanks".
ps) Another factor, is that pilot skill cannot be quantified, and thus, cannot be measured accurately to determine just how much of it is needed under which circumstances. However, plane performance is mechanical, can be quantified, and thus, can be measured to determine just how much advantage one may be able to hold over the other. At its best, pilot skill is still but only an unstable, unquantifiable "X" in the equation, and hence, under the basic principle of securing an tactical advantage in combat, comes second to quantifiable, comparable, and tangible factors. Combat plans always take in the tangible factors first - are my men equipped well? How's the logistics? Communications? Who's going to provide reinforcements? What's the evac plan? What are the enemy numbers? What's the terrain like? The weather? .. and on and on and on. Only after these factors are first determined and analyzed, comes the intangible factors into consideration - how skilled are my men? Are they ready enough? Are the enemies more skilled than us? What's the morale like...?
Both factors determine the final results, and both are important. But clearly, one of them enters into the mind first.
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Utmost respect to WW and his skill, but really, do you see him flying ... Outnumbered? Cornered? Enemy airsuperioriy? Do you see Doom and his Fw190A-5 engaging someone at equal altitudes? Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
Do you ever play this game? Honestly?
That paragraph is simply dumbfounding.
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I have a better challenge for you. ww picks 2 pilots and gix pix 2 pilots. These 4 pilots are the aggressors in a 4 on 1. He who lasts the longest or defeats them the fastest wins.
ww/ gixer fly lower speed but more agile AC. while the aggressors have the faster less agile ac.
This will ensure no running.
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Gents, I truly regret that this discussion has gone down the road it has. I am largely responsible for that.
Gixer and I certainly disagree on what we think determines the better pilot. However, there is nothing wrong or inappropriate in disagreeing. Gixer is uncomfortable with dueling under the tight rules. Many are. It's not the way he prefers to fight. Frankly, there was a time when I would have taken his stance, exactly in fact.
Clearly, there was a miscommunication when we met in the arena the other night. Had I been paying attention more closely and not assumed that he understood what I expected, there would not have been any confusion. I'm taking responsibility for that, because I simply assumed what I hadn't stated in the initial post and was then too obtuse to recognize what Gixer was expecting, even when seeing what he was doing. Indeed, Gixer's explanation of what he expected is logical and doubtless truthful. In his mind, I pulled a "bait and switch", and I can see why he would think that. Within that understanding, I can see why he would be offended by some of my comments. For that I am sorry. I regret Gixer getting dogpiled on the issue as well.
Having said that, I want to invite Gixer and anyone else looking for fun and a chance to practice their MA situational awareness the opportunity to join us in the TA at 9 PM Eastern on Sunday August 17 for our "Engaging Multiple Enemies" clinic. This is not dueling, but an open MA type of environment where each player will have the opportunity to fight two or three enemies at a time. There are no rules governing what style a player may employ. There are no restrictions on how close or far you must be from the enemy. Most fights begin up around 10K, but invariably end up in the weeds. There are no restrictions on what you fly, except no jets or bombers (attack aircraft like the A-20, SBD, D3a, etc are allowed). I realize that 9 PM Eastern US is not a good time if you live in Sydney, but I want to offer the opportunity to Gixer as it is the type of environment where he is most comfortable and can fight the way he wants to without rules restricting him. Besides, these events are great fun.
Aside from providing players with an opportunity to expand their SA, it's also a chance to work as a team with pilots you've like never flown with. What you do in this clinic will translate directly into your MA flying. We've held many of these in the past and everyone had a great time. You will gain experience in assessing threats and judging E states of several enemies at the same time. It substantially increases your workload, and will quickly find any flaws in aspects of you game that you can concentrate on improving.
Rules do exist, but only to govern what constitutes being shot down and how that is handled and to prevent abuse. It works on the honor system. If you are one of the two or three, any hit to the cockpit glass is considered a killing shot. Upon taking such as hit, you turn on air show smoke and exit the fight. Upon flying out of icon range, you may rejoin the fight. The purpose of this is provide positive reinforcement to the lone pilot fighting off the 2 or 3. It also prevents a perpetual gangbang, assuming you can shoot down one or two. This rule does not apply to the single pilot. However, at any time the group can break off and reset the fight. This is encouraged, especially if the lone defender is clearly overwhelmed. It's not a beat-down session, it's training and continuously ganging a defenseless pilots gains nothing for any of the participants.
I will recruit as many Trainers as possible. However, when we break into smaller groups, there may not be enough trainers to have one with each group. Thus, I will assign group leaders where needed. Group leaders will be picked based upon experience and judgment. This leader will decide if the fight needs to be reset. If he calls for a disengagement, players are expected to comply. At any time, the lone defender can call a halt to the fight. If he does, he rotates out of the defender spot.
All pilots will rotate into the defender role. How fast and frequently that occurs is dependent on factors that will constantly be in flux. Typically, I will call a halt at intervals and everyone will tower-out and re-spawn. A five minute break between rounds will allow players to do their personal things.
Pilots who auger may immediately re-up and return to their group.
No one will be keeping score. Run film and review it later. Much can be learned from film.
So, stop by guys. You'll help yourself and have a great time.
My regards,
Widewing
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The evidence?
Go to the MA, and look carefully where a famous/named veteran flies around in his 'inferior' plane, when you meet one. They fly in areas which many of the factors (that they cannot overcome in the inferior plane they are flying), is already removed, and thus, can force a "DA-ish" battle to actually ensue. Utmost respect to WW and his skill, but really, do you see him flying his SBD in a vulched situation? Outnumbered? Cornered? Enemy airsuperioriy? Do you see Doom and his Fw190A-5 engaging someone at equal altitudes? Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
I fly the A-20 outnumbered and at relatively low alt all the time in the LWA.
I am almost never killed in a one on one engagement by an average pilot regradless of initial alt/E state. Sure it'll happen occasionally but most of the time either its the 3rd or 4th guy in or its a good stick that knows his ride. There is no doubt that a better plane increases survivablity, however it does little to enhance your ability to kill. I'm not sure this is a perfect example but here goes. I'm flying the A-20 in the rangoon scenario as a scout. No question that it has a performance edge vs the zekes (marginal vs the A6M5) and is reasonably equal to the 110 being used as a Dinah replacement.
The way it's deployed puts me out on a limb in a 1 vs many enviornment with a primary mandate to stay alive balanced against a need to go in harms way to identify and track the enemy. Now I love the A-20 and feel its an exceptionally good platform within its limitations...but by and large its widely viewed as inferior to any "fighter". So I'm in a situation where I have a 12k alt cap (scenario has a 16k hard ceiling) no ability to climb over 12k unless in icon range...no friendlies around to free me from this alt restrication while the cons can climb to 16k as long as one is engaged with me.
What this all boils down to is the fact that in order to do my job I've been forced into 1 on 1 fights with zekes in every frame (2+beta) and so far won every one. So....
Is the A-20 a better fighter then the zekes (have fought both)? Now this isnt an artificial "dueling enviornment" {which severely restricts the a-20's strengths). It's also not a "fake" MA either. Here we have roughly 200 guys each with a tasking order and interdependent and relying on each other. As a scout I cant avoid contact or run, Once contact is made I spend 60%+ of my time in icon range of an enemy, normally outnumbered by 20-1 or more and always with planes higher and faster and focused on either killing me or driving me away.
So while we dont have "dueling rules" we have "obligations of duty" that put real constrictions on my choice of action. The entire reason for dueling rules is to "force" the realities of combat. The typical "late war ace" in AH would be shot/fragged or busted out in his 1st month of deployment for being a coward...I'll post a clip of what I mean in a few minutes (need to edit it out of a bigger clip). I've got zekes on me and a higher scout engaged with other zekes, I'm late on my 6 call since I thought he had SA on the bogy then turn to "help" even though he's higher and we're both in trouble...and only turn to run again when he lets me know he's toast.
The problem we have with this debate is the artificial rules of engagement in the MA, to me the only "score" that should be allowed is FSO or scenarios....everything else is just practice.
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A few clips that illustrate my thoughts...
Here are 3 clips in sequence from frame #2
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/planevspilot (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/planevspilot)
Clip #1
Easy goes in...
I'm being vectored to the buff stream, easy (the scout who made initial contact) is ahead and pushing thru the fighter screen. Again this isnt the artifical BS we have in the MA that allows this "plane over pilot BS"...this is as close as we ever get to the real thing. Only is FSO or a scenario do we have the numbers, oranization and mission to really put the argument in perspective...now easy disappears into the sea of red and was still flying at the end of the clip.
Clip two
To little to late....
Here I'm trying to balance job #1 "stay alive" vs job#2 "inflict damage and maintain contact" when I get faced with the primary objective...leave no man behind. 4440 is engaged and in trouble ( I thought he had eyeballs on the trailing zeke and didnt want to chk 6 him on a con he saw. By the time I call out the fire he's hit and in trouble, by the time I turn to engage he's probably toast. It seems so fast when its happening and so slow when you look at it on film...
Clip three
engage pilot stuff...
I'm on the deck and have already gone thru one fight with the A65M. I reversed him and missed my shot and lost a flap to his counters before bugging back out. I'm on the deck being chased away and I know that all 3 other scouts are down. Here is the point where "pilot skill" enters the equation. I have a marginal speed advantage and can leave and RTB. I can play safe and loiter but lose any chance to continue my primary mission...or I can aggresively engage the enemy and then seek to continue.
So in the context of as close to a real world engagement as we can muster we have an A-20 and an A65M literally on the deck isolated and tied to a fight by conflicting tasking. My job is to find the buffs ,even at risk of getting killed. I am literally the only scout left and only plane with the range and speed to pursue the buffs. His job is to stop me, so when I turn around he has to engage. Now we have no artificial rules here...yet in effect we have "dueling rules"...I have no choice but to kill him, I'm missing a flap, have had both main gear shot out and taken multiple 20mm and numerous mg hits. I cant possibly do my job with him dogging me back to the buffs.
So when I say that its the pilot and not the plane this is what I mean. It's not about just running and not about just dueling. It's about realizing that day after day thousands of men (and some women) suited up and strapped in and flew off to war. what they found and what they did varied every day...but the guys who excelled were the ones capable of maximizing the capabilities of the plane they flew for the task at hand. At the end of the day what counted most was the man in the plane, not the plane surrounding the man.
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Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
Yes. Sounds like the majority of my flights at one point or another.
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Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
Above pretty much describes how the 479th P-38 drivers pretty much fly. I know it describes how Murdr, Crims and I fly. Manage the terror we would create if we managed to wing together.
ack-ack
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Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
No, they don't. It would be foolish of them to do so. They are in fact, taking the logical course of action.
I appreciate the compliment on my fly..er..dying style, but I don't think you've run into many of the 38 vets. I'd like to think the SAPP'ers pride themselves on puting themselves in tough situations and having fun with it. I'm just the move vocal about it, but that's more my excuse for never getting home :) The guys who take their 38s into the crowd and come out the other side continue to amaze me. And I can name a lot of them who can pull it off.
I sure enjoy flying with a wingman into a mob too :)
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Utmost respect to WW and his skill, but really, do you see him flying his SBD in a vulched situation? Outnumbered? Cornered? Enemy airsuperioriy? Do you see Doom and his Fw190A-5 engaging someone at equal altitudes? Ever seen the P-38 guys (well, except maybe Guppy) fly alone without wingmen, and engage someone at equal or lower altitudes? Multiple enemies at the same time?
No, they don't. It would be foolish of them to do so. They are in fact, taking the logical course of action.
Whether they may realize it or not, they naturally stay away from situations where their esteemed "piloting skill" might not be useful at all. They even have a name for it - they call it "SA". And what does the SA tell them?
I have been a "wingman" to Delirium and I've seen him take on 2-3 cons. I do the same thing, but "tenacity" is where it ends in similarities. Delirium will more often than not, shoot them down and look for more. Delirium sometimes has my jaw dropping at the maneuvers I see him pulling. He's a good guy and I've only asked a couple of questions on the 38, as I don't want to detract from our immersion in the game.
WW doesn't hide in the whorde. Sorry Kwe, I cannot allow the stone to be cast.
Doom has on MANY OCCASIONS, been co-alt with me and we end up kicking each others butt. We used to "give lip to one another on 200", but we've both long buried that hatchet.
None of these three will hide in numbers. Sometimes they'll be near them, but not out of choice. They might be very well near the ONLY FIGHT on the map available to them.
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I haven't flown with a wingman in years... There may or may not be other Rooks around, but I fly alone.
My regards,
Widewing
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yanno kweassa, as much as i've ragged on you over the years about your WOTs - you're a pretty good writer. :)
i'd have gone with "any given sunday."
:aok
but as to this....
....whom they'd dearly love to spank around, but cannot, due to the fact that those dang Hoers and runners are usually in superior planes and runs away a lot. Upping something like a La-7 of their own, is like a signing a confession that they can't catch these runners and HOers despite their pilot skill.. so they can't do anything about it. Instead, they choose to downplay the situation at hand, profess that flying La-7s are no fun, and start a campaign on how newbies should stay away from superplanes and "learn" more ACM from them - by fighting to the death every time, and becomming cannon-fodder all the time. Right this way n00bs - come and get shot down by me all the time, and you'll learn something!
i have fun in the La7 doing precisely that, and not just in running down n00bz...
i also think there's a fair number of so-called vets who don't mind being in disadvantageous situation as long as that uber plane doesn't simply just run away or repeatedly joust. not all fights have to be TnB style. E-fighting is just as fun, and, for me, BnZ less so.
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Let me offer an analogy that highlights the flaw in your reasoning.
Two guys, one a master craftsman, the other just an average guy.
The master craftsman is limited to manual hand tools (saws, screw drivers and such).
The average guy gets to go to Lowes and buys every new power tool he desires.
Both set out to build you a bookshelf. You have to decide which bookshelf you must buy prior to it being made.
Which guy gets your money?
Tools don't make the craftsman, skill makes the craftsman.
The other guy is just a duffer with a garage full of tools. The tools don't make the bookshelf.
A poor craftsman will make a poor bookshelf, regardless of what tools he owns.
Stop by the TA tomorrow evening after 8 PM your time and we'll put the analogy to the test.
My regards,
Widewing
:rock :salute
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I think all the planes have their attributes and deficiencies. Over rated? Thats kind of like asking what is the best plane. It all depends on the pilot.