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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: moot on August 17, 2008, 10:44:59 AM

Title: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: moot on August 17, 2008, 10:44:59 AM
Has anyone watched this one, or know where to find all of it online?  Apparently there were no teleprompters, the second candidate to answer a question (coin flip to pick) went to a sound-insulated room while the first one talked, and a clock was running to prevent rambles.  This is just the sort of thing that was suggested to gauge Obama without scripted questions, etc. 
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: AKIron on August 17, 2008, 11:05:46 AM
Yeah, I watched it last night. My wife still isn't sure about most of Obama's answers. I though McCain tore him to shreds.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: AKIron on August 17, 2008, 12:29:38 PM
I'm actually beginning to like John McCain. He may be a politician but I don't think that will get in the way of what he really believes to be important. I believe he has integrity which to me is an essential quality in a leader. You can't lead without it imo.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: angelsandair on August 17, 2008, 12:36:13 PM
I'm actually beginning to like John McCain. He may be a politician but I don't think that will get in the way of what he really believes to be important. I believe he has integrity which to me is an essential quality in a leader. You can't lead without it imo.

No offense to Obama, but  'turning the other cheek' or however you call it just wont work some times. McCain understands that, I dont think Obama does.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: john9001 on August 17, 2008, 12:36:47 PM
when asked about abortion, obama said that question "was above his pay grade".

McCain gave direct answers to the questions and obama hedged an equivocated.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: rabbidrabbit on August 17, 2008, 12:42:44 PM
If a man can't give direct answers to direct questions he is lacking in character.  Leaders need character.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hangtime on August 17, 2008, 12:48:43 PM
I thought McCain had a hell of a lot more depth. I'm aggravated the media won't bring in Barr or Baldwin.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: midnight Target on August 17, 2008, 05:36:32 PM
when asked about abortion, obama said that question "was above his pay grade".

McCain gave direct answers to the questions and obama hedged an equivocated.


Not exactly ...

Quote
Mr Warren asked when a "baby gets human rights"? Senator McCain did not hesitate. "At the moment of conception," he said. Senator Obama replied that from theological and scientific points of view, this question was "above my pay grade".


Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hap on August 17, 2008, 05:38:44 PM
Has anyone watched this one, or know where to find all of it online? 

Moot, check CNN.  Think they have it.  I watched a few mins of it.  I'll be watching more over the next few days as well.

As of now, here's the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/17/forum/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Tango on August 17, 2008, 06:00:38 PM
Not exactly ...



Well, lets just say Obama refused to answer the question by side stepping it. Thats what liberals do.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 17, 2008, 06:01:11 PM
Mr Warren asked when a "baby gets human rights"? Senator McCain did not hesitate. "At the moment of conception"  


 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 17, 2008, 06:13:20 PM
Quote
Mr Warren asked when a "baby gets human rights"? Senator McCain did not hesitate. "At the moment of conception," he said. Senator Obama replied that from theological and scientific points of view, this question was "above my pay grade".


Yeah and that answer makes him sound so much smarter. At least McCain sticks to his beliefs and speaks his mind, Obama is more worried about saying anything wrong, so he says nothing with any substance at all.

Mr Warren didn't ask him what the theololigical or scientific community thought about the issue, Mr. Warren asked Sen Obama what HE thought about the issue, and got an artfull dodge in response. What a freaking wuss!!!! One time I'd like to see him man up and take a solid stand on SOMETHING!!!!
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hap on August 17, 2008, 06:24:30 PM
One time I'd like to see him man up and take a solid stand on SOMETHING!!!!

I fancy you're talking about Obama.  But your sentence did cause me to pause that McCain does more of what you're seeking.  And I disagree with him sometimes.

I know what you mean though.  Someone says, "Here's what I think and why.  I'd love to have your vote, but if you disagree with me, probably best to vote for the other guy."

And if you're talking about Obama, he has taken solid stands on somethings.  I disagree with some of his "to do's."  And, I know what you mean too.  He came up with an answer designed to lose him the fewest votes on either side. 

There's something quite worthwhile about a guy who says his mind (assuming he's thoughtful and not just spouting off) and follows up with something like "if you disagree, then I'm probably not your guy."


Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Meatwad on August 17, 2008, 08:18:25 PM
I cant even watch 5 minutes of tv anymore without a presidential BS ad getting stuffed down my neck
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Motherland on August 17, 2008, 08:30:58 PM
I have to say, I do not agree with McCain's stance on abortion, but I liked his answer to the question much better :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hangtime on August 17, 2008, 08:32:22 PM
I cant even watch 5 minutes of tv anymore without a presidential BS ad getting stuffed down my neck


Stuffed down your neck till november, then up yer bunghole later.  :aok

Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Meatwad on August 17, 2008, 08:39:34 PM
Stuffed down your neck till november, then up yer bunghole later.  :aok



 :cry
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: midnight Target on August 17, 2008, 09:23:11 PM
Quote
Mr Warren asked when a "baby gets human rights"? Senator McCain did not hesitate. "At the moment of conception," he said. Senator Obama replied that from theological and scientific points of view, this question was "above my pay grade".


Yeah and that answer makes him sound so much smarter. At least McCain sticks to his beliefs and speaks his mind, Obama is more worried about saying anything wrong, so he says nothing with any substance at all.

Mr Warren didn't ask him what the theololigical or scientific community thought about the issue, Mr. Warren asked Sen Obama what HE thought about the issue, and got an artfull dodge in response. What a freaking wuss!!!! One time I'd like to see him man up and take a solid stand on SOMETHING!!!!

Well, I am more than ready to have a President who's best attribute is something more than having an opinion, right or wrong. The question was answered, he said he didn't know. McCain doesn't know either, but he is more than willing to spit out an opinion... I don't find that admirable in the least.

Additionally Obama flat out said he was pro-choice during the discussion. No dodge, no waffling... pro-choice.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: DREDIOCK on August 17, 2008, 09:25:24 PM
I have to say, I do not agree with McCain's stance on abortion, but I liked his answer to the question much better :aok

Couldnt be that much against it.
he is considering Tom Ridge (pro choice) for VP

was kinda surprised that revelation didnt get any thread time here.

All I know is as of yet I am undecided but dont really like either clown.

But

Should Mccain choose Ridge he looses my support entirely
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hamltnblue on August 17, 2008, 09:41:45 PM
Has anyone watched this one, or know where to find all of it online?  Apparently there were no teleprompters, the second candidate to answer a question (coin flip to pick) went to a sound-insulated room while the first one talked, and a clock was running to prevent rambles.  This is just the sort of thing that was suggested to gauge Obama without scripted questions, etc. 
Obama was looking down to his right the whole time. Might not have been a teleprompter but is was at least notes on paper which is the same thing.  The man is an empty suit.  Putin would love someone like him with the same views about Amerika.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 17, 2008, 11:52:14 PM
Well, I am more than ready to have a President who's best attribute is something more than having an opinion, right or wrong. The question was answered, he said he didn't know. McCain doesn't know either, but he is more than willing to spit out an opinion... I don't find that admirable in the least.

Additionally Obama flat out said he was pro-choice during the discussion. No dodge, no waffling... pro-choice.

That's my ENTIRE point. McCain is at least willing to put his opinion out there. Obama isn't. I trust someone more that's willing to give me their honest opinion about something, even if I don't agree with it, than someone who is so afraid to tell me their opinion because they're afraid I might not like it.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 12:57:00 AM
I don't like the fact that people have abortions, but A woman should have the right to end an unwanted pregnancy within a certain time limit.  And anyone who thinks that two cells should have Human rights, is a nutcase!
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Elfie on August 18, 2008, 04:16:39 AM
I don't like the fact that people have abortions, but A woman should have the right to end an unwanted pregnancy within a certain time limit.  And anyone who thinks that two cells should have Human rights, is a nutcase!

It is far more than two cells by the time she finds out she is pregnant.  ;)
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: midnight Target on August 18, 2008, 07:19:08 AM
McCain said "from the moment of conception"... not "from the moment she knows she is pregnant".
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2008, 07:41:56 AM
Pastor Rick should have had a followup for Obamessiah.

When he said "above my pay grade" Pastor Rick should have said "Well, since you admit you don't know, doesn't make sense to give life the benefit of the doubt? You wouldn't kill a murderer on death row if you weren't absolutely sure of his guilt but you see to be willing to terminate a possible life that you are not absolutely sure is not a life." 

I'd have liked to see his Waffle House on that one.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: midnight Target on August 18, 2008, 08:00:59 AM
That is just silly. We are all sure about the human rights of the mother. Shouldn't we err on the side of the known as opposed to the unknown?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 08:22:13 AM
It is far more than two cells by the time she finds out she is pregnant.  ;)
McCain said from conception.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: WWhiskey on August 18, 2008, 08:22:39 AM
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/fgjfgjf.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/dghgh.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/azsd.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/fgjfgjj.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/ffd.jpg) :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Waffle on August 18, 2008, 08:23:22 AM
Obama from his fathers day speech:

"But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one."

So if he says that a father's responsibility doesn't end at conception...does that mean there is a human to be responsible for?

complete speech:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/obamas_speech_on_fatherhood.html




Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 08:36:36 AM
Obama from his fathers day speech:

"But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one."

So if he says that a father's responsibility doesn't end at conception...does that mean there is a human to be responsible for?

complete speech:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/obamas_speech_on_fatherhood.html





O'bama is a tard, and McCain is a twit.   :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: WWhiskey on August 18, 2008, 08:46:03 AM
Obama from his fathers day speech:

"But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one."

So if he says that a father's responsibility doesn't end at conception...does that mean there is a human to be responsible for?

complete speech:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/obamas_speech_on_fatherhood.html






nice post,, this is a good example of Obama!
 so the father is responsible from the moment of conception,, but the mother is not responsible till birth!
if someone kills the woman and she is pregnant that person gets charged with two murders in some states,
yet the woman can kill that same unborn child at anytime until birth with no consequence what so ever!
McCain says both are responsible from the moment of conception!


sounds like they both have the same view about the right of the man, just different views about the women
oboma must be a tard and a twit, skyrock,, while McCain is just a twit :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 18, 2008, 09:06:30 AM
Someone needs to toss that entire post at Obama so we can watch his head explode from the total confusion that it would create. That would be priceless.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 09:12:57 AM

oboma must be a tard and a twit, skyrock,, while McCain is just a twit :aok
pretty much! :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2008, 09:31:10 AM
That is just silly. We are all sure about the human rights of the mother. Shouldn't we err on the side of the known as opposed to the unknown?

What was really silly was Obamessiah ducking the question. When the goin' gets tough, the Messiah takes a powder.

Rights of the Mother? Would that be the right to use birth control, easily purchased over the counter?

Of course not... you're speaking of the right of the mother to kill a person. What's that? You say it isn't a person? Well, how do you KNOW that? The Obamessiah himself doesn't know when it becomes a person but you know more than the Obamessiah?

If there was the most infinitesimal doubt about the guilt of a murderer, would you throw the switch and execute him? No, of course not.

Yet the Obamessiah has complete and total doubt about when life begins but he supports terminating the pregnancy. This despite his total doubt and the complete possibility that an innocent human may die. You appear to support this position as well.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 09:37:47 AM
What was really silly was Obamessiah ducking the question. When the goin' gets tough, the Messiah takes a powder.

Rights of the Mother? Would that be the right to use birth control, easily purchased over the counter?

Of course not... you're speaking of the right of the mother to kill a person. What's that? You say it isn't a person? Well, how do you KNOW that? The Obamessiah himself doesn't know when it becomes a person but you know more than the Obamessiah?

If there was the most infinitesimal doubt about the guilt of a murderer, would you throw the switch and execute him? No, of course not.

Yet the Obamessiah has complete and total doubt about when life begins but he supports terminating the pregnancy. This despite his total doubt and the complete possibility that an innocent human may die. You appear to support this position as well.
Why does it bother you if a woman, who did not want to get pregnant, aborts the pregnancy within the first 2-3 months?  I can understand about later on in pregnancy and such, but why should you have any say so in her decision of abortion in first 2-3months?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 18, 2008, 09:52:34 AM
Why does it bother you if a woman, who did not want to get pregnant, aborts the pregnancy within the first 2-3 months?  I can understand about later on in pregnancy and such, but why should you have any say so in her decision of abortion in first 2-3months?

Come back with that "who cares" attitude when it's YOUR kid that was aborted without your consent. Obama has already said it, a father is responsible from the moment of conception, yet the father has NO RIGHTS at all when it comes to his kid being killed or not if that's what the mother wants. You don't see the problem with that?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2008, 09:56:55 AM
Why does it bother you if a woman, who did not want to get pregnant, aborts the pregnancy within the first 2-3 months?  I can understand about later on in pregnancy and such, but why should you have any say so in her decision of abortion in first 2-3months?

Does it bother you if an inmate is executed and then DNA later proves someone else committed the crime that the inmate was excuted for?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 10:40:55 AM
Come back with that "who cares" attitude when it's YOUR kid that was aborted without your consent. Obama has already said it, a father is responsible from the moment of conception, yet the father has NO RIGHTS at all when it comes to his kid being killed or not if that's what the mother wants. You don't see the problem with that?
The responsibility of the father is to the mother as well.  By the way, I have had it happen to me, and I was very much against it, but I only have 50% say so in the matter, and since it is her body, her 50% trumps mine.   :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 10:44:17 AM
Does it bother you if an inmate is executed and then DNA later proves someone else committed the crime that the inmate was excuted for?
yup.  But a man and a single diploid cell are two different things indeed. :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Elfie on August 18, 2008, 10:46:37 AM
McCain said from conception.

But you said.....

Quote
I don't like the fact that people have abortions, but A woman should have the right to end an unwanted pregnancy within a certain time limit.  And anyone who thinks that two cells should have Human rights, is a nutcase!

I was responding to you, not McCain.  ;)

My statement still stands, by the time a woman finds out she is pregnant it is far more than 2 cells.  ;)
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: texasmom on August 18, 2008, 10:50:31 AM
*
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Sox62 on August 18, 2008, 10:57:45 AM
Why does it bother you if a woman, who did not want to get pregnant, aborts the pregnancy within the first 2-3 months?  I can understand about later on in pregnancy and such, but why should you have any say so in her decision of abortion in first 2-3months?

My wife just had her first ultrasound and she's 11 weeks along.The baby is moving his/her arms and legs.There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind she has a life inside her.

It would certainly bother me if she lost the baby at this point.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Elfie on August 18, 2008, 11:03:52 AM
Why does it bother you if a woman, who did not want to get pregnant, aborts the pregnancy within the first 2-3 months?  I can understand about later on in pregnancy and such, but why should you have any say so in her decision of abortion in first 2-3months?

If any woman does not want to get pregnant, there are multiple forms of birth control out there.

http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~cmallery/150/devel/c7.46.17.human.fetus.jpg

At 5 weeks the arms and legs are already starting to grow, the head is beginning to take shape, heart, eyes, liver and all other organs have begun to form. By the end of the 5th week the baby's heart begins to beat and blood circulation begins.

By the end of week 12 the baby actually looks like a baby, eyes, ears, fingers and toes even fingernails and toenails have developed by this time.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 18, 2008, 11:08:53 AM
The responsibility of the father is to the mother as well.  By the way, I have had it happen to me, and I was very much against it, but I only have 50% say so in the matter, and since it is her body, her 50% trumps mine.   :aok

And THAT is a load of crap and that's why it pisses me off that some liberal thinks it's OK. When my ex wife pulled that crap it was the ONLY time in my life I wanted to cause physical harm to a woman. If I had it my way I'd have her sorry butt in prison for murdering my child, but I can't do a thing about it because it's her body. Well it was my child.

I support abortion in cases of rape, incests, molestation, or if the mothers life is in danger. I understand there are always going to be situations where it might be neccesary, but it sickens me that we in this country would let it be used as a form of birth control and THAT'S what the entire debate is about.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Sox62 on August 18, 2008, 11:17:44 AM
I support abortion in cases of rape, incests, molestation, or if the mothers life is in danger. I understand there are always going to be situations where it might be neccesary, but it sickens me that we in this country would let it be used as a form of birth control and THAT'S what the entire debate is about.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it as well.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: john9001 on August 18, 2008, 11:30:51 AM
the cause/reason for abortion is unwanted pregnancy, if both sides would stop fighting each other and work to reduce unwanted pregnancy it would reduce abortions.

i don't like abortion but making it illegal will not make it go away.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2008, 11:59:52 AM
Once again, I feel abortion is a matter best left up to the individual states.

The Feds should have no say and my Federal tax monies should not be used to pay for an abortion under any circumstances.

If a state votes to make it legal that's that but no public money should be available for those seeking an abortion.

In short, if your state votes that abortion is legal you should be able to get one and you should pay for like you pay for any other elective medical procedure (IE: whatever your insurance carrier doesn't cover you get to pay.)

Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 12:06:54 PM
the cause/reason for abortion is unwanted pregnancy, if both sides would stop fighting each other and work to reduce unwanted pregnancy it would reduce abortions.

i don't like abortion but making it illegal will not make it go away.
This is/has always been my stance.  I know that not all birth control is 100% effective, but no need for the amount of abortions we have in US each year.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 12:09:50 PM
And THAT is a load of crap and that's why it pisses me off that some liberal thinks it's OK. When my ex wife pulled that crap it was the ONLY time in my life I wanted to cause physical harm to a woman. If I had it my way I'd have her sorry butt in prison for murdering my child, but I can't do a thing about it because it's her body. Well it was my child.


It was her body and without it, you have no child.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 12:13:59 PM


I support abortion in cases of rape, incests, molestation,
In which of these cases is it the fault of the fetus? 

Just using your argument against you.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 12:15:02 PM
  this country would let it be used as a form of birth control and THAT'S what the entire debate is about.
It is? 
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 12:16:16 PM
Once again, I feel abortion is a matter best left up to the individual states.

The Feds should have no say and my Federal tax monies should not be used to pay for an abortion under any circumstances.

If a state votes to make it legal but no public money should be available for those seeking an abortion.

In short, if your state votes that abortion is legal you should be able to get one and you should pay for like you pay for any other elective medical procedure (IE: whatever your insurance carrier doesn't cover you get to pay.)


I agree. :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 18, 2008, 01:49:48 PM
Well forgive me for wanting my children to live. I wanted that child, and she had NO right to deny me a child that I helped to create. I would have been more than happy to raise it on my own, but I was denied that oppertunity. What's right about that?

You say it happened to you but at the same time you don't really seem to give a crap. Obviously you didn't want that child yourself.

I also stated that there ARE times when it might be needed such as a rape case. Granted it's not the fetus's fault that it happened but I'm also realistic enough to understand that in such a case a woman might not wish to have that reminder following her around the rest of her life and a woman should have the right to choose in a situation like that. So NO your not using my argument against me as far as my case goes. I was in a happy stable marriage up to that point. My ex made a decision for the both of us without consulting me first, denied me my third child, and violated my trust, and according to you, I should just suck it up and get over it because "without her body I'd have no children" is BS!!! Without my sperm she'd have no children so why shouldn't I have just as much say in the matter as she does?

You will NEVER convince me that what she did was alright, and I will never forgive her for what she did. She had MY child murdered for her own convienance, and because of the screwed up laws and attitudes in this country I'm supposed to just live with it.  Sorry but that's just screwed up beyond anything I've ever heard of.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Holden McGroin on August 18, 2008, 02:53:58 PM
It was her body and without it, you have no child.

Could the embryo be implanted in another?

If so, you have a child without her body.

Many children are concieved now in vitro and with harvested eggs from third party donors.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 03:00:53 PM

You say it happened to you but at the same time you don't really seem to give a crap. Obviously you didn't want that child yourself.
Without my sperm she'd have no children so why shouldn't I have just as much say in the matter as she does?
Hold on here bud.  Yes it did happen to me.  It was devastating, and I offered to raise the child without her help if that happened to be what was needed.   At that point, 5 weeks, it was a part of her body and that alone gave her more weight than me in the decision.  Women are at risk to their lives while pregnant, many things can go wrong that can cause death to them.  It is their choice to take that chance, albeit very unfair to us on many occasions.  My and your situations are rare though, usually the mother to be is faced with deadbeat boyfriend or one that could care less either way.  I am sorry you had to go through that.

 :salute
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 03:01:43 PM
Could the embryo be implanted in another?

If so, you have a child without her body.

Many children are concieved now in vitro and with harvested eggs from third party donors.
It can't be done without both agreeing to it, by law. 
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Wayout on August 18, 2008, 03:04:30 PM

(http://rockford.yi.org/ah/prochoice.jpg)

Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Holden McGroin on August 18, 2008, 03:09:28 PM
It can't be done without both agreeing to it, by law. 

Well, if we are not discussing whether or not the present law is appropriate, then what is this thread about?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Hornet33 on August 18, 2008, 03:14:43 PM
Skyrock I want to appologize for my earlier comment. This is just one of those subjects that hits real close to home for me and I do take it very personally, but that is no reason for me to say what I did to you about your situation.

Sorry bud, heat of the moment and all, but I was out of line. I need to just stay away from threads like this one in the future.

No hard feelings on my end.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 03:24:46 PM
Skyrock I want to appologize for my earlier comment. This is just one of those subjects that hits real close to home for me and I do take it very personally, but that is no reason for me to say what I did to you about your situation.

Sorry bud, heat of the moment and all, but I was out of line. I need to just stay away from threads like this one in the future.

No hard feelings on my end.
I could tell and understanable on your part.  Being in that position is masked up, and is extremely angering.  No hard feelings. :salute
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 03:26:45 PM
Well, if we are not discussing whether or not the present law is appropriate, then what is this thread about?
If only so many anti-abortion folks would put as much vigor and effort into stamping out child poverty in the US. :frown:
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2008, 03:44:44 PM
If only so many women would get their ankles out from behind their ears and use birth control or cross their legs.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 18, 2008, 05:12:28 PM
If only so many women would get their ankles out from behind their ears and use birth control or cross their legs.
true! :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: RedTop on August 18, 2008, 05:16:27 PM


I support abortion in cases of rape, incests, molestation, or if the mothers life is in danger. I understand there are always going to be situations where it might be neccesary, but it sickens me that we in this country would let it be used as a form of birth control and THAT'S what the entire debate is about.

EXACTYLY!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: RedTop on August 18, 2008, 05:31:40 PM
I watched it. I'm also hearing all the fallout from one answer McCain gave.....Obama camp acuses him of cheating.  :lol I really and truly think this is the one format we should have to see during an election year.

No "Debates" that always turn into a pissin match. Just 4 or 5 sessions..in the year we vote...done by several differant people....and let them answer question on a HOST of issues. Alone...unscripted and totally unrehearsed. I found it refreshing to see Obama have to really try to answer something he wasn't ready for...as well as McCain.

I thought Obama did well in some areas and weak in others. ALl in all though I thought he prolly lost if your keeping score.

McCain's answers were more precise and to the point. Just my opinion anyway. All in all I thought he was fairly strong in most areas and REAL strong in others. I think he won the night. Again , if your keeping score so to speak.

As I said , this was the best format for us getting to see the canidates I have seen. 1 hour each. I enjoyed it and it did help in areas I had concerns about with McCain.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: BTW on August 18, 2008, 06:30:40 PM
I can't believe the imbeciles in Obama's camp are accusing McCain of cheating. Do they realize Obama's experience is 143 days in the Senate?
Gosh, what question did McCain cheat on - when do baby's human rights begin? Was his answer out of sync with his LONG history of voting?
What was his biggest moral failure? His first marriage - boy that's cheating for sure! He never regrets that part of his life! He'd have never thought of that! Does evil exist in the world? He will pursue Osama Bin laden to the ends of the earth! Boy he needed a crib sheet to think of that criminal!

Obama sounded like a typical lawyer. Use a lot of words to say nothing. McCain sounded like a President. Obama's answers were typical of his voting record in the Illinois Senate - voting "present" on controversial issues. McCain's answers were as typical of his history. Direct to a point that some of his answers will cause him problems as he will be pinned down on them. $5 million is rich and and human rights begin at conception. It has nothing to do with cheating. It has everything to do with history and character. If Obama's campaign thinks McCain did so great, they are obviously supporting Obama because of his stardom or looks and not his ideas or character. The forum did nothing but show the huge difference between the two candidate. It wasn't the confused old man and the suave young rock star the media paints, but it was a clear look at both candidates.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: RedTop on August 18, 2008, 06:35:26 PM
I can't believe the imbeciles in Obama's camp are accusing McCain of cheating. Do they realize Obama's experience is 143 days in the Senate?
Gosh, what question did McCain cheat on - when do baby's human rights begin? Was his answer out of sync with his LONG history of voting?
What was his biggest moral failure? His first marriage - boy that's cheating for sure! He never regrets that part of his life! He'd have never thought of that! Does evil exist in the world? He will pursue Osama Bin laden to the ends of the earth! Boy he needed a crib sheet to think of that criminal!

Obama sounded like a typical lawyer. Use a lot of words to say nothing. McCain sounded like a President. It has nothing to do with cheating. It has everything to do with history and character.

Without looking it all up....seems the Obama camp is acusing McCain of cheating due to his answer on teachers pay and merit raises. McCain answered the question before the words got out.....what some dont realise is...that EACH canidate was givin a list of topics that would be possibly discussed. They were both given a couple of the questions. I believe the one about adoptions was given to both due to Mr. Warrens possibilty of asking for a commitment from each to do something about that.

AT any rate.....Obama didn't do as well...and McCain's answeers were consise and to the point....so...he must have cheated feels the Obama camp.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: BTW on August 18, 2008, 06:45:10 PM
Without looking it all up....seems the Obama camp is acusing McCain of cheating due to his answer on teachers pay and merit raises. McCain answered the question before the words got out.....what some dont realise is...that EACH canidate was givin a list of topics that would be possibly discussed. They were both given a couple of the questions. I believe the one about adoptions was given to both due to Mr. Warrens possibilty of asking for a commitment from each to do something about that.

AT any rate.....Obama didn't do as well...and McCain's answeers were consise and to the point....so...he must have cheated feels the Obama camp.

I don't have the transcript, but going from memory, I think the host tripped up during the question. You could tell what he was going to ask, but he had to repeat it because he botched the word order. I'm going from memory though.

Again, there was no great revelation or surprise in McCain's answer and hard to imagine what cheating could have went on. He certainly got no points for eloquence with that answer.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: DREDIOCK on August 18, 2008, 08:07:29 PM
O'bama is a tard, and McCain is a twit.   :aok

That has to be the most intelligent thing I've seen posted on this board about either candidate to date.  :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: BTW on August 18, 2008, 09:21:47 PM
Ok, after a little investigating ( well not really - just reading NewsBusters :)), I find the accusations of cheating originate at the scumbag KOS site.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/17/02247/6361

Here's the transcript that accuses McCain of being a mind reader

Quote
  Q ALL RIGHT. LET’S TALK ABOUT EDUCATION. AMERICA 18 RANKS 19TH IN HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATIONS, BUT WE’RE FIRST IN 19 INCARCERATION. EVERYBODY SAYS THEY WANT MORE ACCOUNTABILITY IN SCHOOLS?

    A UH-HUH.

    Q ABOUT 80 PERCENT OF AMERICA SAYS THEY SUPPORT MERIT PAY FOR THE BEST TEACHERS. NOW, I DON’T WANT TO HEAR YOUR STUMP SPEECH ON EDUCATION?

    A YES. YES. AND FIND BAD TEACHERS ANOTHER LINE OF WORK.

    Q YOU KNOW –

    A CAN I –

    Q YOU ARE ANSWERING SO QUICKLY.

    A CAN I –

    Q YOU WANT TO PLAY A GAME OF POKER?

So let  me connect the dot for mentally challenged KOS bloggers..

Yes there should be more accountability it schools
Yes there should be merit pay for good teachers

And gosh - he adds that bad teachers should find other work.

Everyone needs to read this KOS blog to see exactly why they are aptly known as DIMocrats.  I really hope the writer is just completely blinded by political bias and is not really that stupid.


Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Toad on August 18, 2008, 09:24:44 PM
The history of the Obamessiah's votes on something that is above his pay grade:

Quote
In 2001, Senator Barack Obama was the only member of the Illinois senate to speak against a bill that would have recognized premature abortion survivors as “persons.” The bill was in response to a Chicago-area hospital that was leaving such babies to die. Obama voted “present” on the bill after denouncing it. It passed the state Senate but died in a state house committee.

In 2003, a similar bill came before Obama’s health committee. He voted against it. But this time, the legislation was slightly different. This latter version was identical to the federal Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which by then had already passed the U.S. Senate unanimously (with a hearty endorsement even from abortion advocate Sen. Barbara Boxer) and had been signed into law by President Bush.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTBkYTYzZDNjNDgyMWJmMzMxYzljYjYxNmEwMTdhYWE=
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: BTW on August 18, 2008, 09:29:15 PM
The history of the Obamessiah's votes on something that is above his pay grade:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTBkYTYzZDNjNDgyMWJmMzMxYzljYjYxNmEwMTdhYWE=

Anyone who heard that story of the nurse cradling that baby, a victim of a botched abortion, in a  linen room and wasn't moved to tears is the epitome of evil. I can't get that image out of my mind. My brother, who passed 4 years ago, was a surgical tech. He was assisting in an abortion  and the doctor handed the tray and said "specimen!" Well he freaked because the fetus was moving and trying to breath. He grabbed the doctor and told him the baby was alive. He said the doctor just kind of  rolled his eyes and a nurse to him to take away the specimen tray.

I think that story of the bay in the linen room hit me so hard because I remember my brother telling me about this. It really impacted his life.

Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: RedTop on August 18, 2008, 09:32:50 PM
Anyone who heard that story of the nurse cradling that baby, a victim of a botched abortion, in a  linen room and wasn't moved to tears is the epitome of evil. I can't get that image out of my mind.

I actually listened to that the other day...Friday was it?  It was very powerful.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 19, 2008, 01:09:00 AM


And gosh - he adds that bad teachers should find other work.





30% of american classrooms are filled with uncertified teachers........start paying more for whats important, and important people will start teaching. :aok
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Elfie on August 19, 2008, 02:44:24 AM
I actually listened to that the other day...Friday was it?  It was very powerful.

Is there a link for this?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: moot on August 19, 2008, 03:39:47 AM
(http://rockford.yi.org/ah/prochoice.jpg)
  :rofl
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: lazs2 on August 19, 2008, 08:26:53 AM
yep skyrock..  in kalifornia we pay our teachers about 150,000 a year (based on actual time working) and we end up with... well.. almost literate graduates.   Yep.. that is the solution.. just throw more and more money at the useless and failing public schools like in kalifornia and that will fix the problem.... or.. pay less than half as much for a catholic school education and get twice the results.

As for your stand on abortion..  you say it is a 50/50 decision between the man and woman but because the woman carries.. her 50 trumps your 50..   the only way to translate that (unless you are a public school teacher or student) is..   she has 100% of the decision and the father has 0%.. he is allowed to beg tho.

Of all the positions I take on all things.. my position on abortion has always bothered me the most... it is the most cowardly of all my moral positions... I have always said that so long as the baby is not viable outside the mother it is not a person.   I think that is a cowardly dodge of the issue but have never been able to come up with anything else.   I would love to see a morning after pill that worked 100% and then say any worthless slut who didn't take it would have to carry to term.

lazs
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: RedTop on August 19, 2008, 11:34:12 AM
Is there a link for this?

At the risk of being flamed... :lol

Try Hannity.com  its prolly archivied there for last Friday
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Elfie on August 20, 2008, 08:57:16 AM
Quote
Of all the positions I take on all things.. my position on abortion has always bothered me the most... it is the most cowardly of all my moral positions... I have always said that so long as the baby is not viable outside the mother it is not a person.   I think that is a cowardly dodge of the issue but have never been able to come up with anything else.   I would love to see a morning after pill that worked 100% and then say any worthless slut who didn't take it would have to carry to term.

lazs

Google up some pictures Lazs, that might help you solve your moral dilemma.  :salute
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: Elfie on August 20, 2008, 09:09:12 AM
Quote
Try Hannity.com  its prolly archivied there for last Friday

I'm not seeing a way to check the archives, if they even exist.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: RedTop on August 20, 2008, 09:30:08 AM
I'm not seeing a way to check the archives, if they even exist.

I'll look around and see if I can find it
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 20, 2008, 11:50:28 AM
yep skyrock..  in kalifornia we pay our teachers about 150,000 a year (based on actual time working) and we end up with... well.. almost literate graduates.   Yep.. that is the solution.. just throw more and more money at the useless and failing public schools like in kalifornia and that will fix the problem....
:huh  46k a year doesn't quite add up to 150k a year.  

NCLB requires teachers finish an equivilant of 6 semester hours each year in PD(professional development).  The amount of hours worked during the actual "school year"(for me, it has averaged out to be about 10 hours a day), plus the PD during the summer(which we pay for ourselves), plus the extra-carricular activities that we are contractually bound to lead, my hours per year average out to be around.....1800 hours worked a year.  This is what I know personally and I have friends(teachers) who work much more than that.  1800 hours for 46k.  46k for 1800 hours of what is reguarded as the most important job for america's future. :rolleyes:

As for your stand on abortion..  you say it is a 50/50 decision between the man and woman but because the woman carries.. her 50 trumps your 50..   the only way to translate that (unless you are a public school teacher or student) is..   she has 100% of the decision and the father has 0%.. he is allowed to beg tho.
Pretty much.  It is her body.  

Of all the positions I take on all things.. my position on abortion has always bothered me the most... it is the most cowardly of all my moral positions... I have always said that so long as the baby is not viable outside the mother it is not a person.   I think that is a cowardly dodge of the issue but have never been able to come up with anything else.   I would love to see a morning after pill that worked 100% and then say any worthless slut who didn't take it would have to carry to term.

lazs
Well, we're actually close on this one.  In those first few months, it's just a part of "her" body.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: 1pLUs44 on August 20, 2008, 12:03:14 PM
I was watching a debate or something a while back, and someone asked obama what a question was... and I still cant remember the question. :(
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: AKIron on August 20, 2008, 12:07:53 PM
Of all the positions I take on all things.. my position on abortion has always bothered me the most... it is the most cowardly of all my moral positions... I have always said that so long as the baby is not viable outside the mother it is not a person.   I think that is a cowardly dodge of the issue but have never been able to come up with anything else.   I would love to see a morning after pill that worked 100% and then say any worthless slut who didn't take it would have to carry to term.

lazs

Here's one way to look at. How viable is a 2 year old outside the parent's care? Will it starve or freeze to death if it isn't sheltered? Would it be criminal to let it fend for itself and die trying? For that matter, how about all these people on welfare? Would it be reasonable to let them all starve to death? Well, that latter is aimed more at the bleeding heart pro-choicers.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: BTW on August 20, 2008, 12:16:27 PM
:huh  46k a year doesn't quite add up to 150k a year. 


Pretty much.  It is her body. 


Then why can she go to jail if her fetus body part is born addicted to crack?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: AKIron on August 20, 2008, 12:22:09 PM
:huh  46k a year doesn't quite add up to 150k a year.  


I believe private schools on average pay their teachers less than do public schools. However, private schools do better academically than their public school counterparts. More money for better education is just so much BS and the proof is in the pudding.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 20, 2008, 01:28:29 PM
I believe private schools on average pay their teachers less than do public schools. However, private schools do better academically than their public school counterparts. More money for better education is just so much BS and the proof is in the pudding.
Take a look at socio-economic status of students and student teacher ratio, these two are prime indicators in any school be it private or public.

The issue of more money for teachers is to attract more teachers.  I think the certification rate of teachers in the classroom was around 30% just a few years ago.  There are so many students and not enough teachers that most states are forced to use teachers aides and substitutes as teachers.  Right now, the limit is set to 30 students per teacher mainly because there is not enough teachers to do the work. 

Now, moron got into office and pushed for NCLB, which basically put an enormous amount of paper work on teachers and holds them responsible for learning growth(even in SPED students) up to 100% proficiency by 2013.  Now, who would want to do this job for 45K a year?  It is very easy to post data about a teacher making $36 an hour to argue a point, but in reality the money does not equal the responsibility.  In many other "professions" a manager with this many people under him and this type of responsibility would be making 6 figures. 

If you want better education, you need to pay for the teachers.  Many are the first to blame teachers, yet the last to want to pay for them.   Teachers have been going "beyond the call of duty" for so long that most are accustomed to that and expect that.  Yet if you ask these people will they work 10 hours overtime a week without pay, and be responsible for the growth of 150 people a week, they will tell you where to stuff it.

Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 20, 2008, 01:32:05 PM
Then why can she go to jail if her fetus body part is born addicted to crack?
the laws are so messed up in this country that your question cannot logically be answered.  The way we handle our addicts is at best, criminal, and at worst, stupid as ****.
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: AKIron on August 20, 2008, 02:58:23 PM
Take a look at socio-economic status of students and student teacher ratio, these two are prime indicators in any school be it private or public.


I thought you implied it was about teacher's pay and not the students? Which is it?
Title: Re: Saddleback forum: Obama and McCain answer Rick Warren
Post by: SkyRock on August 20, 2008, 03:05:11 PM
I thought you implied it was about teacher's pay and not the students? Which is it?
I stated it was about teacher pay, which is not high enough to attract enough people into the field. :aok