Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DmonSlyr on September 30, 2008, 10:53:21 PM
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please if there any liberals on this forum tell me why you are a liberal
i don't understand the concept and just want to get your point of view
a liberal the way i see it, wants to make government more powerful and wants a socialist democracy.
is this true, why have some of you chosen the path of a liberal for the USA?
I'm just curious i want your point of views!
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I give it a 6.5
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Meh it depends on era.
If you lived during 1860s and 1920s and supported Republicans, you're a liberal.
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I give it a 6.5
feeling generous, I see.
barely rates a 2. and I am generous.
ask the waitress.
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Help me out here.
Can you give me a definition of a Liberal, and then a Conserative so I can decide which I am?
I just love being categorized :)
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feeling generous, I see.
barely rates a 2. and I am generous.
ask the waitress.
That's only cause she was a hotty
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damn... yer right.
busted.
literally.
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basically just tell me why you are voting for obama?
we all know change, yeah yeah yeah.
but what IS the change thats soooo much better to you people? i just want to know.
whats is obamas change thats gonna really just help the economy and get us back in track????
HUH whats is it?
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(i'll take the bait)
Yes, but wasnt America, the "greatest country in the world" created on change? it was created on the blood of war with a simple ideal that people should be free to act whichever way they wish. At the time it must have scared a lot of people too. When slavery was abolished it scared a lot of people. But does that make them wrong for being revolutionary and new? I'm not saying we should have a revolution or war, but when a system (the republicans, and on a larger scale the no-regulation free market) fails it must be replaced, only now its done through elections, democratic processes and diplomacy.
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I like to use a lot of parmesan cheese on pasta, esp. with marinara sauce.
One might say, I apply it in liberal amounts.
So - in short, I conclude: Being liberal is good eats.
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Help me out here.
Can you give me a definition of a Liberal, and then a Conserative so I can decide which I am?
I just love being categorized :)
Listen to Guppy...
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basically just tell me why you are voting for obama?
we all know change, yeah yeah yeah.
but what IS the change thats soooo much better to you people? i just want to know.
whats is obamas change thats gonna really just help the economy and get us back in track????
HUH whats is it?
I just see McCain as Bush the 2nd, and I don't really want 4 more years of that, he claims that he's not like Bush, but the guy voted 90% of the time with him.
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basically just tell me why you are voting for obama?
we all know change, yeah yeah yeah.
but what IS the change thats soooo much better to you people? i just want to know.
whats is obamas change thats gonna really just help the economy and get us back in track????
HUH whats is it?
So if change is a Liberal idea, then ask yourself the question you ask of those who would vote for Obama. Why is staying the same better? What's McCain going to do to help the economy and get us back on track?
In all honesty I haven't decided yet who I'm voting for, but staying the course seems like a really lousy idea so I'm leaning towards Obama. Sometimes you take a different road because you are tired of looking at the same old thing over and over again.
I sometimes think people would rather stay in a miserable situation they know, then take a chance on something new.
Again, can you define Liberal and Conservative for me so I know what category I fall under?
If change = Liberal, the same = Conservative, then I guess I'm a Liberal.
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DmonSlyr, did you really think you would get a decent answer to your question? LOL
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(off topic)
Also keep in mind that Americans today are more (politically and socially) conservative than people back in the 60s-70s.
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There's better than a 90% chance I'll vote for Obama, and if I had to give one or two reasons why, it's because the Republican party has turned into the Jesus party and has lost all credibility in delivering small government. There are exceptions, but...
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Yup.
My uncle was a Dole Republican and Bush 2.0 part 1 (2000) Republican. This time he's voting for Obama. He's actually surprised when Obama won Iowa caucus.
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There's better than a 90% chance I'll vote for Obama, and if I had to give one or two reasons why, it's because the Republican party has turned into the Jesus party and has lost all credibility in delivering small government. There are exceptions, but...
In St. Louis, they said that if you critisize Obama, they're gonna prosecute you. Kinda scary isn't it?
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sources?
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DmonSlyr, did you really think you would get a decent answer to your question? LOL
And a decent answer would be what?
I get tired of the labels.
Lets see. I work in Social Services, my wife is a Nurse. Does that make me liberal?
I support the military, believe we have an obligation to our Veterans, believe we need to be able to defend ourselves. Guess I must be Conservative
I believe we need to provide education for our children. Is that Liberal or Conservative?
I watch health care costs rise, and wonder if at some point we need to reform the health care system. Liberal?
I was raised on the Good Samaritan, believe I have a responsiblity to my neighbor as that's what the point of that story was. Hmmm Conservative because that's the foundation of the Christian church? Hmmm. I'm not real religious however, figuring my actions mean more. Liberal?
Damn, this is confusing.
Can you define it again for me? I don't seem to have a card in my wallet defining me as either or. I've recieved nothing in the mail stating which I am either.
What's a person to do? Guess I might just have to vote based on sizing up the individual running and make my decision based on that instead of some ideology.
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sources?
prolly the flying saucers :D
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No one "wants" to be a liberal, they're born that way. Just like the gays that wouldn't "choose" to be gay but are born that way. Why would one "choose" or "want" to be liberal? That's just dumb.
How's that?
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prolly the flying saucers :D
I get my political opinions, when I need one, from the alien that stops by every few weeks to change the batteries in my anal probe.
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And a decent answer would be what?
I get tired of the labels.
Lets see. I work in Social Services, my wife is a Nurse. Does that make me liberal?
I support the military, believe we have an obligation to our Veterans, believe we need to be able to defend ourselves. Guess I must be Conservative
I believe we need to provide education for our children. Is that Liberal or Conservative?
I watch health care costs rise, and wonder if at some point we need to reform the health care system. Liberal?
I was raised on the Good Samaritan, believe I have a responsiblity to my neighbor as that's what the point of that story was. Hmmm Conservative because that's the foundation of the Christian church? Hmmm. I'm not real religious however, figuring my actions mean more. Liberal?
Damn, this is confusing.
Can you define it again for me? I don't seem to have a card in my wallet defining me as either or. I've recieved nothing in the mail stating which I am either.
What's a person to do? Guess I might just have to vote based on sizing up the individual running and make my decision based on that instead of some ideology.
Sound like a repblacrat to me
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Damn sunfan!
You unintentionally created a new label!
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Why would anyone want to be either?
Actually, here's a better question... What makes someone think that a hardcore Republican is any better for this country than a hardcore Democrat?
Face it... Both parties have some decent ideas... Both parties have some great ideas... And both parties have some horrible ideas. I don't care if you're a hardline conservative, or liberal. If you think the hardliners of your party know it all, you're a sheep, and you worry me.
I'm voting for McCain, because the way I see it... Many of my Republican friends don't like him. They don't think he's conservative enough. I've yet to hear my Democrat friends complain about Obama not being Liberal enough.
McCain's voting for Bush's plans 90% of the time thing gets thrown out a lot. Consider two things: the things he voted against, and the fact that four the past four years, really, it's been election time, and the first thing to do is win your own party's support. McCain has a reputation for being a maverick. He has had that for a long, long time. People don't get that reputation with 10%.
Now we see each candidate taking steps towards the center, to try and appease people like me who want a more moderate president. That's natural and happens every close election. But I honestly believe after the election is over, McCain would remain closer to the center than Obama, and that's what this country of many different interests needs.
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i'll bite :D
I am a liberal. I am so because, although I'm not in the top 2-5percentile of net wealth, I still want to be able to vote. I think universal franchise is a good thing (another word for this is democracy.) I dont want my (mine because I got to vote for it, or not) government telling me when and with whom I can associate, or what to think. I like being free to negotiate my salary with whichever employer I find employment, rather than being told what job I should be doing and how much I'll get for it. I like being able to go into a bookshop and chosing which books I can read, rather than being told which I'm allowed to. I like being able to own property, and the social mobility that comes with all of the above. I like being able to practise my religion without persecution. I think for most things free markets provide the best solution. I dont think I should be locked up indefinitely without due process of law. etc etc etc.
I've made this point before - unless your second or third property is in the Hamptons and has 10+ bedrooms, you are a liberal whether you like the label or not.
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please if there any liberals on this forum tell me why you are a liberal
WWJD?
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i'm voting for change, i'm voting against biden, he has been in govt far too long.
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please if there any liberals on this forum tell me why you are a liberal
i don't understand the concept and just want to get your point of view
a liberal the way i see it, wants to make government more powerful and wants a socialist democracy.
is this true, why have some of you chosen the path of a liberal for the USA?
I'm just curious i want your point of views!
People for the most part are liberals because the dems have shinier, better produced commercials with more ambiguous slogans that better represent a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness followed by the promise of really cool free stuff. The rest are victims of white guilt.
Then you have the ruling class of liberals. These are the ones who are calling the shots and making the rules - because the lower echelons are too stupid to take care of themselves. These are the liberals who travel across the country and world in private jets and fleets of stretch limos telling the great unwashed masses that they must curb their energy use. These are the "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" liberals. They are entitled to their lifestyle because they are smarter than you.
It's actually just a culture of entitlement and guilt - each one feeding off of the other; very unhealthy.
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anax.. Republicans are walking, dragging one leg, toward socialism while liberal democrats (there are no other kind at the top) are running toward it.
Be as angry as you want toward republicans for not cutting down the size of government but.. to vote for osamabinbiden.. that is like cutting off your nose cause you think it doesn't make you look handsome enough.
As for the jesus thing.. that is your hangup.. you are blowing it out of proportion for some reason of your own that I can't hazard to guess... it is really no big deal.. I am not christian and would fight them gaining control of my life but I see no real threat there.
lazs
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to vote for osamabinbiden.. that is like cutting off your nose cause you think it doesn't make you look handsome enough.
No no no, bad analogy, it's more like cutting your dick off because it doesn't work anymore
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know you're a liberal if.....
You think that consenting adults can engage freely in every activity except capitalism.
If you think Sean Hannnity and Ann Coulter are mean spirited racists and promote hate crimes, but Maxine Waters, John Conyers and Louis Farakahn aren't and don't.
If you think that the only acceptable hate crime is Christian bashing.
You think we never gave peace a chance.
Sean Penn makes sense to you. Awec Bawdwin makes even more sense.
You want to outlaw cigarettes and legalize marijuana.
If you use the words "xtians", neo-con's" or "wing-nuts" at least four times in any given day.
You say Have a Great Winter Solstice, Happy Kwankza, Merry Ramadan and think saying Merry Christmas is just wrong.
You think that the words “to promote the general welfare” in the Constitution mean to promote welfare generally.
You believe that even though the top 20 percent of taxpayers pay 80 percent of income taxes, that the rich are not paying their “fair share.”
You think that Rush Limbaugh’s listeners are mindless “dittoheads,” but you have never doubted anything that you heard from Michael Moore.
You believe that rich people should not be allowed to contribute so much money to candidates for office (except for George Soros).
You have no problem with Hollywood movie starts flying around in private jets to give speeches on the evils of SUVs.
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sources?
Here's a quick one on the story.
http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080927/BLOGS09/80927018 (http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080927/BLOGS09/80927018)
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Don’t know if I consider myself a liberal. I know I didn’t 10 years back.
I am just disgusted with the republican party.
In the last 8 years I have seen my health care cost go up my a factor of 10. There is no reason something should go up over 10X in that kind of time.
I have seen us go to war that I believe is unjust. Spending money I don’t believe this country has across the world.
We have been spending money on everything, rather than cutting spending.
We now condone torture, something I was always taught that we are better then.
We have started spying on our own citizens without warrants which I believe will be a gateway into doing everything from more street cameras to random searches of houses.
We started locking up people without trials and holding them for years before releasing them.
We have started grabbing people that are flying through our country and shipping them off to other countries to be tortured.
I have seen more of what I believe is socializing losses of big companies in the form of court reform limiting judgments against companies doing wrong.
Seeing collage go up 10% or more a year in a county where it is getting to become impossible to work with out going.
I don’t Really believe Obama will be much different, the damage is already done. But I don’t feel rewarding the same team again. I do have a small hope that something’s may change.
Just as a note,
I believe in guns for all
Voting for anyone felons or not. As long as you are a us citizen
marriage of anyone man or woman,
I believe in a women’s choice,
I believe we should kick all illegal’s out of this country. And to send employers to jail for hiring them.
I am for Charter schools.
I am against seat belt laws
Dislike Epa regulation of cars.
I disagree with our country giving money as aid year after year to other countries, Charity should be made by people not governments.
I belive states should have more power then the federal goverment in most things.
I
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Don’t know if I consider myself a liberal. I know I didn’t 10 years back.
I am just disgusted with the republican party.
In the last 8 years I have seen my health care cost go up my a factor of 10. There is no reason something should go up over 10X in that kind of time.
So, how do you draw a line between health care cost and the repubs? The countervailing forces for health cost increases include the continued hospital capital projects (both replacing aging equipment and buildings as well as the medical arms race), and cost-shifting from government payers and the uninsured to private payers. It's estimated that 1 in 4 private payer dollars goes to this category. This is primarily done by hospitals who are shifting the costs of under-compensated and uncompensated care to the commercial side of the revenue ledger. (See link (http://www.healthpopuli.com/2008/07/health-care-costs-will-exceed-cpi-for.html)
I have seen us go to war that I believe is unjust. Spending money I don’t believe this country has across the world.
A 80% majority in Congress and Senate thought it was a just war, based on the information we had. Of course, we could have just let Saddam rape and torture and kill his own people (Hell, his sons had it good, why should we interfere?) and flip his finger at the world. Disagreeing with a war doesn't make you a liberal. On the flip side, what if Saddam had gone unchecked? Where would be today with him? Scarier option to think IMO.
We have been spending money on everything, rather than cutting spending.
Governments tend to do that when your country is attacked. (Ref 9/11)
For the record, I lean slightly right of center, more of a conservative and I think our government is out of control in their spending but that doesn't mean I'm desperate to vote for a liberal democrat like Obamamessiah and TAX myself to death either.
We now condone torture, something I was always taught that we are better then.
We've been over this before. Soldiers make mistakes in the field. Waterboarding torture? That depends on your point of view and opinion.
We have started spying on our own citizens without warrants which I believe will be a gateway into doing everything from more street cameras to random searches of houses.
I got news for ya, the FBI has had a file on over 20% of the American public since the 1940's. I believe the so-called "illegal" wiretaps were found not illegal and are on incoming calls from overseas, which I don't disagree with if it is at the cost of preventing another 9/11.
We started locking up people without trials and holding them for years before releasing them.
And those that we did release, were later captured or killed fighting US Soldiers overseas....yeah, I've always been a proponent of letting folks like yourself house these guys and see how long you last....
We have started grabbing people that are flying through our country and shipping them off to other countries to be tortured.
I think there was one incident in 8 years?
I have seen more of what I believe is socializing losses of big companies in the form of court reform limiting judgments against companies doing wrong.
I'm all for Tort Reform, but that's not going to happen on either side of the political fence regardless whos in office.
Seeing collage go up 10% or more a year in a county where it is getting to become impossible to work with out going.
I've seen spelling drop in schools too. (College) 80% of colleges are private institutions. Yeah, Bush's Fault! :rolleyes:
I don’t Really believe Obama will be much different, the damage is already done. But I don’t feel rewarding the same team again. I do have a small hope that something’s may change.
Your hope that something may change....hmmm, does 2006 House and Senate Democrat Majority ring a bell? Lowest approval ratings EVAR!
And on a final note, Obama is not going to change anything except your hard earned money from your pocket to the Governments pocket.
And for Crissake, McCain is a democrat in Republican Clothing, just look at his voting record dating back to the 1980's.
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please if there any liberals on this forum tell me why you are a liberal
i don't understand the concept and just want to get your point of view
a liberal the way i see it, wants to make government more powerful and wants a socialist democracy.
is this true, why have some of you chosen the path of a liberal for the USA?
I'm just curious i want your point of views!
You are listening to too many O Club right wingers.. If that's what you think a liberal is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
One could ask your self why you would vote for the Republicans if that is your reason for not liking Democrats. After all the current Republican party is a mix of Neo-Cons and Religious Conservatives. They have long ago lost their roots of being Fiscal conservatives whom believed in smaller govt and less spending. Now days the Republican party spends more than the Democrats and they add more govt as well.
After 9/11 what was the first thing Bush did? He added more govt with Homeland security. Soon as all the bail out talk started happening and the issues with Freddie and Fannie what was Mccain's first words? He wanted to add more govt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism
The current Republican Party is made up of so many Religious Conservatives it is actually all for taking away your rights. They want to force the govt to teach Religious beliefs in schools. They want to tell you what they think is appropriate to watch on TV or on the internet. In fact they are the biggest threat to freedom in this country at the moment and Sara Palin is one of them.
I'm sorry but the belief of smaller govt and less taxes is only a pipe dream the current crop of Republicans like to talk about.. The closest thing the Republican party has to the old style conservatism ways is the Libertarian Party guys like Ron Paul.. (however guys like him tend to be wayy off in right field)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_conservatism
This is the current Republican Party..
Religious conservatives seek to preserve the teachings of particular ideologies, sometimes by proclaiming the value of those teachings, at other times seeking to have those teachings given the force of law. Religious conservatism may support, or be supported by, secular customs. In other places or at other times, religious conservatism may find itself at odds with the culture in which the believers reside. In some cultures, there is conflict between two or more different groups of religious conservatives, each strongly asserting both that their view is correct, and that opposing views are wrong.
Neoconservatism is a right-wing political philosophy that emerged in the United States from the rejection of the social liberalism, moral relativism, and New Left counterculture of the 1960s. In United States, they align themselves with most conservative values, such free market, limited welfare, and traditional cultural values. Their key distinction is on international affairs; they prefer a proactive approach internationally that would protect the national interests.
Bush was led into the Iraq war by the Neo Cons. Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Dick Cheney & John Bolton are all classic case Neo Cons whom pushed us into this war. Bush is the only one in the group who really "wasn't" a Neocon if you remember during his campaign he preached aginst nation building. However he willingly allowed himself to be drug along by the Neocons ideology.
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know you're a liberal if.....
You think that consenting adults can engage freely in every activity except capitalism.
If you think Sean Hannnity and Ann Coulter are mean spirited racists and promote hate crimes, but Maxine Waters, John Conyers and Louis Farakahn aren't and don't.
If you think that the only acceptable hate crime is Christian bashing.
You think we never gave peace a chance.
Sean Penn makes sense to you. Awec Bawdwin makes even more sense.
You want to outlaw cigarettes and legalize marijuana.
If you use the words "xtians", neo-con's" or "wing-nuts" at least four times in any given day.
You say Have a Great Winter Solstice, Happy Kwankza, Merry Ramadan and think saying Merry Christmas is just wrong.
You think that the words “to promote the general welfare” in the Constitution mean to promote welfare generally.
You believe that even though the top 20 percent of taxpayers pay 80 percent of income taxes, that the rich are not paying their “fair share.”
You think that Rush Limbaugh’s listeners are mindless “dittoheads,” but you have never doubted anything that you heard from Michael Moore.
You believe that rich people should not be allowed to contribute so much money to candidates for office (except for George Soros).
You have no problem with Hollywood movie starts flying around in private jets to give speeches on the evils of SUVs.
Give that man a ceeeegar.
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Hate to make a correction Crocket, but Homeland Security did not add to the government. Homeland Security only consolidated 22 agencies under one roof and made it a cabinet level office. The reason for this was to streamline and make the passing of critical information more efficient between those agencies because in the past that had not been the case. Homeland Security was also added to the National Inteligence register so that information recieved by the dept could more easily be passed from the dept to other inteligence agencies such as the FBI, CIA, and NSA, as well as the respective military inteligence deptartments.
So adding the Dept of Homeland Security did not add to the size of the government it mearly streamlined and reorganized a bunch of agencieas already there, to function on a more tight knit basis, and having served on active duty in the Coast Guard before, during, and after the reorganization I can tell you that it worked better than we thought it would.
Here are the agencies that were reorganized into the dept.
U.S. Customs Service ( Treasury)
U.S. Coast Guard (Transportation)
U.S. Secret Service (Treasury)
Immigration and Naturalization Service (Justice)
United States Federal Protective Service (ICE)
Transportation Security Administration (Transportation)
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (Treasury)
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (Agriculture)
Office for Domestic Preparedness (Justice)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Strategic National Stockpile and the National Disaster Medical System (HHS)
Nuclear Incident Response Team (Energy)
Domestic Emergency Support Teams (Justice)
National Domestic Preparedness Office (FBI)
CBRN Countermeasures Programs (Energy)
Environmental Measurements Laboratory (Energy)
National BW Defense Analysis Center (Defense)
Plum Island Animal Disease Center (Agriculture)
Federal Computer Incident Response Center (GSA)
National Communications System (Defense)
National Infrastructure Protection Center (FBI)
Energy Security and Assurance Program (Energy)
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http://www.blogthings.com/howrepublicanareyouquiz/
http://www.blogthings.com/howdemocratareyouquiz/
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Hate to make a correction Crocket, but Homeland Security did not add to the government. Homeland Security only consolidated 22 agencies under one roof and made it a cabinet level office. The reason for this was to streamline and make the passing of critical information more efficient between those agencies because in the past that had not been the case. Homeland Security was also added to the National Inteligence register so that information recieved by the dept could more easily be passed from the dept to other inteligence agencies such as the FBI, CIA, and NSA, as well as the respective military inteligence deptartments.
So adding the Dept of Homeland Security did not add to the size of the government it mearly streamlined and reorganized a bunch of agencieas already there, to function on a more tight knit basis, and having served on active duty in the Coast Guard before, during, and after the reorganization I can tell you that it worked better than we thought it would.
Here are the agencies that were reorganized into the dept.
U.S. Customs Service ( Treasury)
U.S. Coast Guard (Transportation)
U.S. Secret Service (Treasury)
Immigration and Naturalization Service (Justice)
United States Federal Protective Service (ICE)
Transportation Security Administration (Transportation)
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (Treasury)
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (Agriculture)
Office for Domestic Preparedness (Justice)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Strategic National Stockpile and the National Disaster Medical System (HHS)
Nuclear Incident Response Team (Energy)
Domestic Emergency Support Teams (Justice)
National Domestic Preparedness Office (FBI)
CBRN Countermeasures Programs (Energy)
Environmental Measurements Laboratory (Energy)
National BW Defense Analysis Center (Defense)
Plum Island Animal Disease Center (Agriculture)
Federal Computer Incident Response Center (GSA)
National Communications System (Defense)
National Infrastructure Protection Center (FBI)
Energy Security and Assurance Program (Energy)
Yes but it is bigger as in one govt entity has more control and power than any other single one had. This is the same thing McCain wants with the current economic situation. He wants one govt entity to be in charge of it all once again giving that one govt office much more power and control than any single one of the others ever had. That means bigger govt in the power and control sense.
While it does sound good as in eliminating red tape or making things work better. Sometimes it's a good thing to have the power broken up and spread apart across several govt agencies. As they say power corrupts so why give one group so much control?
Think of it like this.. The one man in control of Homeland security is the most powerful person in this country and he's not elected by the people.
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please if there any liberals on this forum tell me why you are a liberal
i don't understand the concept and just want to get your point of view
a liberal the way i see it, wants to make government more powerful and wants a socialist democracy.
is this true, why have some of you chosen the path of a liberal for the USA?
I'm just curious i want your point of views!
If anyone answers that Jimmy Carters the reason I'm loading my gun. He makes GW look good.
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No one "wants" to be a liberal, they're born that way. Just like the gays that wouldn't "choose" to be gay but are born that way. Why would one "choose" or "want" to be liberal? That's just dumb.
How's that?
Beat me to it. :aok
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Yes but it is bigger as in one govt entity has more control and power than any other single one had. This is the same thing McCain wants with the current economic situation. He wants one govt entity to be in charge of it all once again giving that one govt office much more power and control than any single one of the others ever had. That means bigger govt in the power and control sense.
While it does sound good as in eliminating red tape or making things work better. Sometimes it's a good thing to have the power broken up and spread apart across several govt agencies. As they say power corrupts so why give one group so much control?
Think of it like this.. The one man in control of Homeland security is the most powerful person in this country and he's not elected by the people.
Because in an emergancy would you rather have 1 person calling the shots, or 22 organization heads, plus the 11 dept heads they worked for all trying to have a meeting to figure out who is going to be in charge, trying to figure out who has jurisdiction over what, and who's going to be responsible for everything after the fact? Then once they have their meeting have to go through channels to get the information to the President, because he had to be briefed by the 11 dept heads seperately for their own actions,/responses. Now the President goes to one person and asks, "What is going on?" and that person has been briefed by his people who all work for him.
Like I told you, I was there in the middle of it when this all went down, and I can say with 100% certainty from the operational level, it was the SMART thing to do. I could care less about the political side of it, but where the rubber meets the road it was the right thing to do.
Also as far as the dept head being the most powerfull person in the country and he's not elected, not quite accurate on that either. That person has to be appointed and APPROVED by Congress, and can be FIRED anytime the President wants to for any reason. Not so powerfull after all is it?
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As for the jesus thing.. that is your hangup.. you are blowing it out of proportion for some reason of your own that I can't hazard to guess... it is really no big deal.. I am not christian and would fight them gaining control of my life but I see no real threat there.
Maybe it was being instructed not to use the word "evolution" when I was supposed to teach the concept of "adaptation" to 6th graders.
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Like I told you, I was there in the middle of it when this all went down, and I can say with 100% certainty from the operational level, it was the SMART thing to do. I could care less about the political side of it, but where the rubber meets the road it was the right thing to do.
From operational level it's just a disaster. The biggest bureaucracy ever, inefficient, slow and wasteful.
DHS costs 50 billion extra per year, yet it does not improve anything.
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From operational level it's just a disaster. The biggest bureaucracy ever, inefficient, slow and wasteful.
DHS costs 50 billion extra per year, yet it does not improve anything.
What agency do you work for within the deptartment?
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What agency do you work for within the deptartment?
GAO reports are available to all, so are OPM reports. Federal budget is not secret either. Follow the trail and you'll see that DHS waste more than their 'official' budget is...
edited typo
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Because in an emergancy would you rather have 1 person calling the shots, or 22 organization heads, plus the 11 dept heads they worked for all trying to have a meeting to figure out who is going to be in charge, trying to figure out who has jurisdiction over what, and who's going to be responsible for everything after the fact? Then once they have their meeting have to go through channels to get the information to the President, because he had to be briefed by the 11 dept heads seperately for their own actions,/responses. Now the President goes to one person and asks, "What is going on?" and that person has been briefed by his people who all work for him.
Like I told you, I was there in the middle of it when this all went down, and I can say with 100% certainty from the operational level, it was the SMART thing to do. I could care less about the political side of it, but where the rubber meets the road it was the right thing to do.
Also as far as the dept head being the most powerfull person in the country and he's not elected, not quite accurate on that either. That person has to be appointed and APPROVED by Congress, and can be FIRED anytime the President wants to for any reason. Not so powerfull after all is it?
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin
I remember it used to be all the rage with the hard core right wingers who used to claim the evil liberals were going to take over the country using FEMA. Claiming FEMA was some secret shadow govt operating in the background. There was all kinds of wacko sites floating around the net in the early 90's. Now here we are with one single govt entity that controls everything run by a non elected civilian and they are welcomed with open arms.
I'm sorry but in a perfect world one organization might be good, however it's nothing more than bigger govt and more spending and now all that power is in the hands of one non elected person.
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Formation of DHS:
Damned if Bush did nothing, Damned if he did.... :rolleyes:
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Formation of DHS:
Damned if Bush did nothing, Damned if he did.... :rolleyes:
Majority of Dems and Reps voted for it. I don't like Bush, but I can't blame him for everything either...
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Majority of Dems and Reps voted for it. I don't like Bush, but I can't blame him for everything either...
Yea I can't say I blame Bush directly either.. it is what it is. I was just making the point that current day Republicans are all for bigger govt and more spending. That's why I say the current crop is not Fiscal conservatives but rather a mix of Neocons and Religious Conservatives. Both of them want more power and bigger govt with less rights for the Average American.
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Yea I can't say I blame Bush directly either.. it is what it is. I was just making the point that current day Republicans are all for bigger govt and more spending. That's why I say the current crop is not Fiscal conservatives but rather a mix of Neocons and Religious Conservatives. Both of them want more power and bigger govt with less rights for the Average American.
Do you think you're going to get smaller government and less spending with a democratic Congress/Senate majority and Democratic president?
Enjoy the extra cash that you have now....
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Of course, we could have just let Saddam rape and torture and kill his own people .
We lost 600k in our civil war, I don't think any other country sticking their nose in it would have made us a better country. Let them fight for their country like everyone else has.
Sorry Rip, but them killing each other as an excuse to invade just doesn't fly. Sell me anything else, but not that
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WWJD?
Jesus is probably very sad right now.
We should be sad as well for letting this country go down the tubes. It's not just the politicians fault it's ours. They gave this country an opportunity to become even more greedy than than we were. Since when do you refy your house to buy toys and all the other crap that this nation bought to make their lives better and rub it into their neighbor's face.
I live in an above average neighborhood in Southern California. My wife is a mortgage broker and I'm a building contractor. I 've lived in the same home for 16 years. At one point I had close to 2 million in equity which now has been cut in 1/2. Did I go out and buy that Ferrari I always had my eye on? Did I buy that platinum Rolex ?did I buy that 300ft long motorhome with 14 plasma TVs in it? Hell no...... why? because I knew I would have to pay for it . I seen this happening in my neighborhood when money was cheap and now the sad reality is now some are walking away from their homes . They still have their toys. That's why I never took a drop of equity out of my house and the government should have regulated that industry and protected this nations people against what happened by not tempting the tempted sheep we are. IT"S ALL OF THEIR FAULT AS WELL AS OUR"S !
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Resist partisan labeling and herd politics.
Become an American. Do what you think is best for the country on election day.
And remain an American.
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We lost 600k in our civil war, I don't think any other country sticking their nose in it would have made us a better country. Let them fight for their country like everyone else has.
Sorry Rip, but them killing each other as an excuse to invade just doesn't fly. Sell me anything else, but not that
We're talking about a dictator that lit oil wells on fire with the purpose of making the world pay in 1991...a man who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted to eventually destroy Israel and the U.S. It's not just about Iraqi killing Iraqi, it was about having a neighborhood watch program on a stationary carrier called "Iraq". I'd hate to think of the alternative had he been left in power.....
If you're going to bring the Civil War into the discussion, then let's play "What if" had we taken out Hitler before he gained too much momentum.
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We're talking about a dictator that lit oil wells on fire with the purpose of making the world pay in 1991...a man who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted to eventually destroy Israel and the U.S. It's not just about Iraqi killing Iraqi, it was about having a neighborhood watch program on a stationary carrier called "Iraq". I'd hate to think of the alternative had he been left in power.....
If you're going to bring the Civil War into the discussion, then let's play "What if" had we taken out Hitler before he gained too much momentum.
Yeah, and we were talking about a south that wanted slavery, what's your point?
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Do you think you're going to get smaller government and less spending with a democratic Congress/Senate majority and Democratic president?
Enjoy the extra cash that you have now....
No, but I'm also not a fool whom believes the Republican will give me a smaller govt like many here claim they will. I've already posted a few times why I vote for Democrats. It's because I value my personal rights that the current Religious Conservatives would love to take away from me.
The basic idea of Liberalism is protecting personal freedoms and to pushing for equal opportunity, which is the exact opposite of Religious Conservatives & the Neocons. While the far left libs can get a bit extreme with the equal opportunity stuff I'd much rather deal with that, than having the extreme Right forcing their religious beliefs on me, or getting us in another war that has nothing to do with protecting this country.
The simple fact is Liberals tend to be more for the individual while Conservatives are more for their specific group and screw anyone else.
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GAO reports are available to all, so are OPM reports. Federal budget is not secret either. Follow the trail and you'll see that DHS waste more than their 'official' budget is...
edited typo
So you don't work for any agency within the dept so how would you know what it's like at the operational level, and at operational level I mean the guys like me that are out there every day doing the actual work.
From an operational standpoint it was a great move. Past situation before the dept was created. We would board a vessel and conduct a routine inspection. Unless we had intel allready on hand regarding crewmembers we were in the dark. If we wanted info on a drew member or passenger that wasn't on the manifest it could take upwards of 2 days to several weeks to get information from Imigration, DEA, or anyone else. Current situation we can send a couple of messages, or pick up a phone and have information about anyone on the ship in less than 24 hours because all the info is internal to the dept. That is a huge improvment at the operational level. All those agencies now work for the same boss, using the same communications links, and networks, and the ability to pass time critical information has been increased by a huge margin.
That's not big government, that the government actually doing something that improves the ability of all those agencies to actually be able to do their jobs in a timely manner. You look at the GAO budgets. Yeah the funding has gone way up from where it was because all those agencies are having to upgrade all their equipment to operate together, and that cost money, but the end result is worth the cost at the operational level.
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So you don't work for any agency within the dept so how would you know what it's like at the operational level, and at operational level I mean the guys like me that are out there every day doing the actual work.
Ah c'mon. All what was needed is shared database. Instead we created monster Stalin could be proud of.
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Resist partisan labeling and herd politics.
Become an American. Do what you think is best for the country on election day.
And remain an American.
Ok, you've got the easy part done, Hang. Now, the hard part, is to get everyone to agree on what course of action to take.
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We're talking about a dictator that lit oil wells on fire with the purpose of making the world pay in 1991...a man who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted to eventually destroy Israel and the U.S. It's not just about Iraqi killing Iraqi, it was about having a neighborhood watch program on a stationary carrier called "Iraq". I'd hate to think of the alternative had he been left in power.....
If you're going to bring the Civil War into the discussion, then let's play "What if" had we taken out Hitler before he gained too much momentum.
Take Saddam's rhetoric aside, and you'll see that he did that in an attempt to delay our advance. He was "our" man in the Middle East at one time...It would have been smarter to have brought him back in line with us (dropping the sanctions, and maybe giving him a little financial support) and we could have used him as a Bulwark against Iran, instead of having to go over there and do it ourselves. I know hindsight is 20/20, but giving him a little aid right after the Iran/Iraq war ended in '88 would have been quite a bit cheaper than Gulf wars' one and two...
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please if there any liberals on this forum tell me why you are a liberal
i don't understand the concept and just want to get your point of view
a liberal the way i see it, wants to make government more powerful and wants a socialist democracy.
is this true, why have some of you chosen the path of a liberal for the USA?
I'm just curious i want your point of views!
I'm a conservative Democrat and a ex-Republican. To me a lot of the Republican rhetoric is thinly veiled racism. The Republican party has become the white peoples party. I resent their attempts to push their religious views into our schools. The total allegiance to big business. Attacking personal freedoms.
--Your kidding right? "a liberal the way i see it, wants to make government more powerful and wants a socialist democracy." President Bush has increased the government astronomically and has demonstrated his social democracy by bailing out airlines and now banks. Republicans are supporters of all sorts of corporate welfare. From no tax bonus' to CEO's to cheap exploitation of federal lands if big business wants it, the Republicans are for it. The banking lobby wanted deregulation, the Republicans pushed it through, getting the Democrats to support it with promises of home ownership for the masses.
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Ah c'mon. All what was needed is shared database. Instead we created monster Stalin could be proud of.
Exactly.. There is nothing wrong with having these agencies work together and share databases. It's another thing to create a monster inside our govt.
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Ah c'mon. All what was needed is shared database. Instead we created monster Stalin could be proud of.
There is ALOT more to it than that. Trust me. We had "shared" data bases before and they didn't work. Care to take a guess as to why? Politics. Every former dept and agency HAD to have their very own software systems and communications systems to "protect" their individual budget. They could ALL claim, well we are the ONLY ones who use this system and it works great for "us" so we need more money to manage and expand "our" systems.
HUGE waste of time and money. Now that everyone is under the same roof, so to speak, everyone is having to change to a common system, and with that common system now in place someone in the Coast Guard can send an e-mail to someone in Customs, or Imigration, and it's all done on the same network, in house, and it's fast.
I konw because the last command I was at did a ton of R&D for the new computer system and SATCOM systems for the entire dept.
Case in point. Katrina. 2 days before the storm hit NOLA, FEMA realized they didn't have enough experianced SATCOM techs to handle the job of setting up emergancy communications. At my command the CO recieved an internal e-mail from the communications director at FEMA requesting personel to help them out. 2 hours latter I had typed orders in hand for Detached Duty from my current command to the regional FEMA communications director gulf coast for an unspecified amount of time and to be ready to depart on 4 hours notice from activation of those orders.
Prior to the dept being set up that request would have taken days to process if it was even allowed to get past Coast Guard HQ.
It isn't about "just" sharing data, it's about sharing all the unique resources avaible from each agency and being able to quickly put them where they are needed, when they are needed.
And before you go off on how bad the response was after Katrina hit, remember that we couldn't move in until the Governor asked for federal assistance, days after it hit. I'm sure you've noticed that in the last several hurricans in the US the Governors have declared states of emergancy and requested federal assistance before the storms even hit. With those requirements already in place, so was the federal support.
Sorry but your theory of DHS being a monster that Stalin would be proud, and that it's a huge drain on resources, and moves too slow to do any good, doesn't stand up. You also have to consider that 80% of the members of the House and Senate agreed that the dept was a good idea and voted accourdingly.
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There is ALOT more to it than that. Trust me. We had "shared" data bases before and they didn't work. Care to take a guess as to why? Politics. Every former dept and agency HAD to have their very own software systems and communications systems to "protect" their individual budget. They could ALL claim, well we are the ONLY ones who use this system and it works great for "us" so we need more money to manage and expand "our" systems.
HUGE waste of time and money. Now that everyone is under the same roof, so to speak, everyone is having to change to a common system, and with that common system now in place someone in the Coast Guard can send an e-mail to someone in Customs, or Imigration, and it's all done on the same network, in house, and it's fast.
I konw because the last command I was at did a ton of R&D for the new computer system and SATCOM systems for the entire dept.
Case in point. Katrina. 2 days before the storm hit NOLA, FEMA realized they didn't have enough experianced SATCOM techs to handle the job of setting up emergancy communications. At my command the CO recieved an internal e-mail from the communications director at FEMA requesting personel to help them out. 2 hours latter I had typed orders in hand for Detached Duty from my current command to the regional FEMA communications director gulf coast for an unspecified amount of time and to be ready to depart on 4 hours notice from activation of those orders.
Prior to the dept being set up that request would have taken days to process if it was even allowed to get past Coast Guard HQ.
It isn't about "just" sharing data, it's about sharing all the unique resources avaible from each agency and being able to quickly put them where they are needed, when they are needed.
And before you go off on how bad the response was after Katrina hit, remember that we couldn't move in until the Governor asked for federal assistance, days after it hit. I'm sure you've noticed that in the last several hurricans in the US the Governors have declared states of emergancy and requested federal assistance before the storms even hit. With those requirements already in place, so was the federal support.
Sorry but your theory of DHS being a monster that Stalin would be proud, and that it's a huge drain on resources, and moves too slow to do any good, doesn't stand up. You also have to consider that 80% of the members of the House and Senate agreed that the dept was a good idea and voted accourdingly.
Yes but what you are describing could have been solved with out having to create a new monster govt organization. That's where a real leader steps in and says enough of the BS.. You guys will work together and sort out the issues.
It's just like the views of many here in the O'club that think Bush's illegal wire taps were ok claiming.. "if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about".
That was the same deal. the FBI already had the ability to do what they needed legally and within our Constitutional frame work. Instead they wanted it to be "easier". So what happens we ended up with illegal wire taps.. Prisoners being held off of American soil in a attempt to skirt by our own laws. Then of course we now have the govt buying up personal data on US citizens from private organizations because by doing it that way they don't need a warrant.
We didn't need a new govt organization to make things easier and work smoother, we just needed our leader ship to get things done. However instead of getting things done we create a monster and bigger govt that has almost unchecked power. Who knows what kind of problems this will cause in the future.
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Whatever happened to the Patriot Act? I'm sure the democrats voted it into nonexistence when they took control of congress right? As much belly aching as they did about that and other security measures I'm sure they never would have voted for even more privacy intrusions, right? Right?
Oh, seems they were all just full of hot air afterall.
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Crockett, if the wiretapping was illegal, why was no one arrested?
These wiretappings were not domestic but rather "foreign intelligence" essential to the conduct of war and they warrant requirements of FISA were implicitly superseded by the subsequent passage of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists.
So, show me the persons convicted for your so-called "liberal left wing parrotted" information.
You've been called out on this before on this BBS, by Toad and others, yet you bunny hop down another trail to deflect from the conversation.
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Sorry but your theory of DHS being a monster that Stalin would be proud, and that it's a huge drain on resources, and moves too slow to do any good, doesn't stand up.
You must be one of those who believe including FBI and CIA would make DHS perfect. Fact is, DHS does nothing what couldn't be achieved without it, with less bureaucracy and for less $$. Oh wait, except for threat level advisories.
You also have to consider that 80% of the members of the House and Senate agreed that the dept was a good idea and voted accourdingly.
That's probably reason for Congress's high satisfaction rate among voters...
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Crockett, if the wiretapping was illegal, why was no one arrested?
These wiretappings were not domestic but rather "foreign intelligence" essential to the conduct of war and they warrant requirements of FISA were implicitly superseded by the subsequent passage of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists.
So, show me the persons convicted for your so-called "liberal left wing parrotted" information.
You've been called out on this before on this BBS, by Toad and others, yet you bunny hop down another trail to deflect from the conversation.
It's only because the Bush admin caved on the issue and essentially went back to the way it was legal to do. Bush and Co agreed to use the so called secret court to get approval for wire taps deemed to be important for national security for limited amounts of time with out a standard court ordered warrant. In short Bush and Co agreed to follow the law other wise there likely would have been charges filed.
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The Republican party is fiscally liberal in illinois because big govt. programs are where the pork is at. The fewer taxpayer funded programs passed through springfield the less pork to take home or distribute. Why should the Democrats have all the fun? The Democratic machine(s) usually manages to pack some pork for the Republican minority to grease the wheels. A wasteful schools or infrastructure bill for Chicago, with a nice slice for downstate, etc.
Wonder if that transfers to the current Republicans in Washington :)
Charon
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Whatever happened to the Patriot Act? I'm sure the democrats voted it into nonexistence when they took control of congress right? As much belly aching as they did about that and other security measures I'm sure they never would have voted for even more privacy intrusions, right? Right?
Oh, seems they were all just full of hot air afterall.
Much of it has been over turned by the courts for being unconstitutional.
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See Hang, I told you it was a 6.5, and you wanted to give it a two
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No one "wants" to be a liberal, they're born that way. Just like the gays that wouldn't "choose" to be gay but are born that way. Why would one "choose" or "want" to be liberal? That's just dumb.
How's that?
Ok... now that's funny :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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It's only because the Bush admin caved on the issue and essentially went back to the way it was legal to do. Bush and Co agreed to use the so called secret court to get approval for wire taps deemed to be important for national security for limited amounts of time with out a standard court ordered warrant. In short Bush and Co agreed to follow the law other wise there likely would have been charges filed.
Dude, you know and I know they had they broke the law, the Demoncrats would have had an impeachment order drafted so fast (for paybacks to Clinton if nothing else.) They didn't. No law was broken. End of story.
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(off topic)
Also keep in mind that Americans today are more (politically and socially) conservative than people back in the 60s-70s.
They are? Wow..I didn't know that. (not being a smartazz either)
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Yes, Americans who grew up in the 60s and 70s aspired for change. They rejected 50s-60s lifestyle.
This goes for the rest of the (free) world at that time.
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Yes, Americans who grew up in the 60s and 70s aspired for change. They rejected 50s-60s lifestyle.
This goes for the rest of the (free) world at that time.
I guess I see the world as liberal....and this country more liberal and less conservative. I've alsways thought the world was much less conservative that the U.S.. As I've grown older , and changes in life , I've gotten more conservative. The U.S. in general seems to be going the other way. <shrug>
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I guess I see the world as liberal....and this country more liberal and less conservative. I've alsways thought the world was much less conservative that the U.S.. As I've grown older , and changes in life , I've gotten more conservative. The U.S. in general seems to be going the other way. <shrug>
You know, what you just said reminded me of something that I heard talking to a guy at work. He made the point that what we had for Liberals and Conservatives 50 years' ago are completely different than what we have today. For an example, look at how both parties' have changed; They used to not be so completely different on all issues, but Today, they are almost polar opposites.
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Hell, my parents were far more liberal than me.
They smoke, drink, gamble, did coke (expensive hobby), went to political protest while in college, and went to disco to get wasted.
I didn't do any of that. I'm a good kid. I study and I go to the internet (AH, /b/, read manga) to kill time.
Maybe health care and health insurance was cheap back then? :D
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lol
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Yes, Americans who grew up in the 60s and 70s aspired for change. They rejected 50s-60s lifestyle.
This goes for the rest of the (free) world at that time.
And by the 80s & 90s we had figured out the 60s & 70s actually sucked pretty bad. :)
edit: to be fair, we did give the world the 80s hair bands. Everybody has my generations sincerest apology for that.
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See Hang, I told you it was a 6.5, and you wanted to give it a two
Yup. I screwed the pooch on this one, too. Wanna see my picks for the stock market?
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No, but I'm also not a fool whom believes the Republican will give me a smaller govt like many here claim they will. I've already posted a few times why I vote for Democrats. It's because I value my personal rights that the current Religious Conservatives would love to take away from me.
The basic idea of Liberalism is protecting personal freedoms and to pushing for equal opportunity, which is the exact opposite of Religious Conservatives & the Neocons. While the far left libs can get a bit extreme with the equal opportunity stuff I'd much rather deal with that, than having the extreme Right forcing their religious beliefs on me, or getting us in another war that has nothing to do with protecting this country.
The simple fact is Liberals tend to be more for the individual while Conservatives are more for their specific group and screw anyone else.
Uhh are you serious?
You would rather have a communist "every one is equal" country, then basing a country off religious beliefs?
What I don't understand is that you say liberals are more individual? But a individualist doesn't really care about what other people think. That's why they are individual. So looking at democrats in the past, I really don't think they want to help anyone but themselves.
Do you think raising gas taxes is a good idea?
Do you think buying our oil from other countries is still working great for our country?
Tell me whats wrong with building oil reserves in our own country?
Do you think people like Barnie Frank really have a clue as to what our economy is going through?
McCain KNEW that we would be in a chrises but no one listented to him.
Do you like Nancy Pelocie?
Not look at us!
You want to blame bush for everything?? How bout our BULLSH^% democratic congress that veto's every bill trying to help our country.
Democrats won't do anything but help themselves, if we fail they blame everything on Bush. EVERYTHING! And try to make BULLSH^& excuses why our country is failing.
If Obama becomes president, we wont hear nearly as much from him as we will the DEM congress, they are going to USE Obama to pass all their bills and their will be nothing we can do about it.
McCain wants to work with the democrats and try to make us unify as one. The DEM congress though I bet you anything they will veto and vote against anything McCain trys to pass. Why? because DEMs only care about themselves and not about a country as one! Its there way or the highway, nothing a republican can say in the world that would change there mind for good or bad.
That's why I hate DEM beliefs: they don't listen to the other side.
Ohh and no one has told me any change that Obama has in store for our economy as far as getting us out of this hole? WHAT IS IT?
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Partially because I cannot stand to have a Tina Fey knock off with an I.Q. of a rich-as-a-queen middle school girl in the most expensive private school in Kansas City MO as vice president, but more so, I find the liberals to be slightly more accepting of new ideas, doing things because they needed to be done, reaching over party lines to get important bills to be passed. Also, because of my demeanor at school, summer camps, or just places with middle schoolers and up that can think (as hard as that is to believe) , Conservatives shun me because I seem to be a homosexual (I am not) without getting to know me as a person, whereas Liberals are a wee bit...nicer. Just barely.
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Jesus is probably very sad right now.
We should be sad as well for letting this country go down the tubes. It's not just the politicians fault it's ours. They gave this country an opportunity to become even more greedy than than we were. Since when do you refy your house to buy toys and all the other crap that this nation bought to make their lives better and rub it into their neighbor's face.
I live in an above average neighborhood in Southern California. My wife is a mortgage broker and I'm a building contractor. I 've lived in the same home for 16 years. At one point I had close to 2 million in equity which now has been cut in 1/2. Did I go out and buy that Ferrari I always had my eye on? Did I buy that platinum Rolex ?did I buy that 300ft long motorhome with 14 plasma TVs in it? Hell no...... why? because I knew I would have to pay for it . I seen this happening in my neighborhood when money was cheap and now the sad reality is now some are walking away from their homes . They still have their toys. That's why I never took a drop of equity out of my house and the government should have regulated that industry and protected this nations people against what happened by not tempting the tempted sheep we are. IT"S ALL OF THEIR FAULT AS WELL AS OUR"S !
If there's really one thing I wish I could accomplish on these boards, its this:
I'd like to convince people that America didn't BECOME what it is now. That it always was this way. That America wasn't formed for OUR freedom, but for the Founding Father's Power.
That this country will always try to be led by people trying to convince you that poop is only now the worst smelling thing in the world.
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basically just tell me why you are voting for obama?
Anyone but another village idiot and religious imbecile.
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Conservatives shun me because I seem to be a homosexual (I am not)
oh i cant tell you hhow much i have gotten that :mad:
maybe its my icon :D
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Anyone but another village idiot and religious imbecile.
You probably want to vote for McCain then. I think he is less religious than Obama.
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You know, what you just said reminded me of something that I heard talking to a guy at work. He made the point that what we had for Liberals and Conservatives 50 years' ago are completely different than what we have today. For an example, look at how both parties' have changed; They used to not be so completely different on all issues, but Today, they are almost polar opposites.
Not quite. Both are spending money like crazy, I'll give you than, but Democrats would (and will if Obama is elected, I'll punt this topic in 2 years as proof, if you've not left by then)prefer to tax you to death than give you a tax break.
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yeah reallly i cant wait to scream "i told you so" to everybody cause i just cant see obama doing the right change. what ever that change is that no one has told me in 90 post.
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They are? Wow..I didn't know that. (not being a smartazz either)
You know, he might be on to something, socially anyway. My mom says how times have changed, how people would walk down the street and say hello and have a long conversations. How all the neighbors knew each other. How people would go door to door singing christmas carols, and people would invite them in for hot chocolate. Now people seem to avoid each other, they are not as friendly anymore. You might even be thought of as strange if you went door to door singing christmas carols, shoot, you might even get court ordered to stop.
So yeah, that might be socially conservative I guess
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You know, he might be on to something, socially anyway. My mom says how times have changed, how people would walk down the street and say hello and have a long conversations. How all the neighbors knew each other. How people would go door to door singing christmas carols, and people would invite them in for hot chocolate. Now people seem to avoid each other, they are not as friendly anymore. You might even be thought of as strange if you went door to door singing christmas carols, shoot, you might even get court ordered to stop.
So yeah, that might be socially conservative I guess
In psychology, it's called an invert.
When I lived on the East coast, it was particularly "Clickish". That spawns inverts. Ironically, most were democrats (NJ, NY, MA)
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You know, he might be on to something, socially anyway. My mom says how times have changed, how people would walk down the street and say hello and have a long conversations. How all the neighbors knew each other. How people would go door to door singing christmas carols, and people would invite them in for hot chocolate. Now people seem to avoid each other, they are not as friendly anymore. You might even be thought of as strange if you went door to door singing christmas carols, shoot, you might even get court ordered to stop.
Now THAT's strange.
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Im not really an invert. I play a huge amount of golf with some guys. Im a home body...When not playing golf or working , but get out some with the wife and family for dinners and such.
What I meant by my statement was.....Im conservative in my beliefs..I don't usually look for controversy , but won't back down. I don't think government has ANYPLACE in my home. I have several guns and believe in mine and others right to have them. I don't think illegals shuld have rights just given to them because they SAY so...In fact I think the same way they got in...will take em back out.
Libs seem to have an attitude of....Screw god....screw anything that has to do with god...and I will force my way on you and you'll like it or I'll just take you to court. They don't like anything that may be in the least bit religeous. Thier freedom of speech is more important that yours. They think they are smarter. Just all in all I see MOST of the country like that. Several other thngs stick out...but why get into it.
I want to keep my money I make. I don't mind paying taxes as long as its fair for ALL. Not the millionaires that find loop holes to pay less of a percentage than I. And that "well they paid millions to your thousands" argument dont cut it for me. If I have to pay 35 percent then they should pay 35 percent. Not 17. Yes it was millions...but thats not the point. When you have MILLIONS upon MILLIONS upon MILLIONS and will never EVER worry for a thing in their life...paying less than the average joe who doesnt have the luxury of LAWYERS (plural) to get em out of a few hundred dollars...then they should pay.
This anything goes lifestyle that I believe liberals live is what I mean. No taking responsibility for actions.
I've rambled enough.
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Dude, you know and I know they had they broke the law, the Demoncrats would have had an impeachment order drafted so fast (for paybacks to Clinton if nothing else.) They didn't. No law was broken. End of story.
Your wrong.. it went to court and the supreme court made him stop because the wiretaps were deemed illegal. The case wasn't about pressing criminal charges aginst the Bush admin.. The case was suing them to get the wiretaps stopped.
You can read about it here.
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2005/12/20/spying/index.html
As for impeachment, unlike the Republican whom tried to impeach Clinton for everything under the sun, I'm pretty sure the Democrats decided it would be worse for the country to put it through that. I mean jesus, what's worse let Bush get off on the wiretaps or have Cheney take over.
Besides that Bush and co agreed to not do it and to follow the proper channels, so the lawsuit served it's purpose.
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Uhh are you serious?
You would rather have a communist "every one is equal" country, then basing a country off religious beliefs?
What I don't understand is that you say liberals are more individual? But a individualist doesn't really care about what other people think. That's why they are individual. So looking at democrats in the past, I really don't think they want to help anyone but themselves.
Do you think raising gas taxes is a good idea?
Do you think buying our oil from other countries is still working great for our country?
Tell me whats wrong with building oil reserves in our own country?
Do you think people like Barnie Frank really have a clue as to what our economy is going through?
McCain KNEW that we would be in a chrises but no one listented to him.
Do you like Nancy Pelocie?
Not look at us!
You want to blame bush for everything?? How bout our BULLSH^% democratic congress that veto's every bill trying to help our country.
Democrats won't do anything but help themselves, if we fail they blame everything on Bush. EVERYTHING! And try to make BULLSH^& excuses why our country is failing.
If Obama becomes president, we wont hear nearly as much from him as we will the DEM congress, they are going to USE Obama to pass all their bills and their will be nothing we can do about it.
McCain wants to work with the democrats and try to make us unify as one. The DEM congress though I bet you anything they will veto and vote against anything McCain trys to pass. Why? because DEMs only care about themselves and not about a country as one! Its there way or the highway, nothing a republican can say in the world that would change there mind for good or bad.
That's why I hate DEM beliefs: they don't listen to the other side.
Ohh and no one has told me any change that Obama has in store for our economy as far as getting us out of this hole? WHAT IS IT?
LOL what planet have you been living on? We had a Republican President, House and Senate. What happened? Why when they had all the power did they lose it? Tough to blame anyone but themselves for that one.
You are talking exactly like the description of those Dem's you hate. You are so stuck in finding a way to blame the Dem's, you can't see the forest for the trees.
And since when did this country become us vs them? Thought we were all Americans? Maybe the problem is both sides are so busy trying to blame each other, they forget they are working for all of us?
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Maybe the problem is both sides are so busy trying to blame each other, they forget they are supposed to be screwing all of us?
Fixed.
Not to worry, they'll get back to us shortly.
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Im not really an invert. I play a huge amount of golf with some guys. Im a home body...When not playing golf or working , but get out some with the wife and family for dinners and such.
What I meant by my statement was.....Im conservative in my beliefs..I don't usually look for controversy , but won't back down. I don't think government has ANYPLACE in my home. I have several guns and believe in mine and others right to have them. I don't think illegals shuld have rights just given to them because they SAY so...In fact I think the same way they got in...will take em back out.
Libs seem to have an attitude of....Screw god....screw anything that has to do with god...and I will force my way on you and you'll like it or I'll just take you to court. They don't like anything that may be in the least bit religeous. Thier freedom of speech is more important that yours. They think they are smarter. Just all in all I see MOST of the country like that. Several other thngs stick out...but why get into it.
I want to keep my money I make. I don't mind paying taxes as long as its fair for ALL. Not the millionaires that find loop holes to pay less of a percentage than I. And that "well they paid millions to your thousands" argument dont cut it for me. If I have to pay 35 percent then they should pay 35 percent. Not 17. Yes it was millions...but thats not the point. When you have MILLIONS upon MILLIONS upon MILLIONS and will never EVER worry for a thing in their life...paying less than the average joe who doesnt have the luxury of LAWYERS (plural) to get em out of a few hundred dollars...then they should pay.
This anything goes lifestyle that I believe liberals live is what I mean. No taking responsibility for actions.
I've rambled enough.
What Good Samaritan act have you performed today? LOL They vs you. Same old BS. It's us. We all are part of this country. We have a responsibility to each other. Sitting back in the comfort of your home and finding someone else to blame for things doesn't sound very much like a man of faith.
I'm a firm believer that I have a responsibilty to my neighbor. That sounds liberal doesn't it. Hammered home by my parents and grand parents. It's funny when I read all this BS and I think about my Father and Grandfather. Both would have called themselves conservatives. But I guess it was from a different time. Out in small town South Dakota, if one of the farmers went down to illness, the other farmers got together and worked the farm for them until they could get back on their feet. If a family was in trouble the community came to the rescue. That's how they 'governed'. You didn't judge people, it wasn't about how much it was going to cost you, it was about helping and being good neighbors. My grandfather had the local lumber yard. After he died, we were looking at the books. He carried people for years who couldn't afford to pay their bills. And my grandparents never had money. He always felt it was more important to be a good friend and neighbor. It was never about money, greed or power. My father was the same way.
Funny how it's a product of how I was raised and my faith. It turns out it's not all about me in that regard.
I think about that Good Samaritan story a lot and how I watched it lived. Funny how part of that old story applies even now. You've got the Republican on one side of the road, unwilling to get his hands dirty to help the beaten and robbed man, and you've got the Democrat on the other side doing the same thing. Both looking for their air time to blame the other for not doing the right thing while absolving themselves of any responsibilty.
And it's left to the little folks who don't label themselves, who see themselves as members of the human race, with a responsibilty to each other, who get left to pick up the pieces.
So spill it. What have all you babblers done to get your hands dirty and make the world a better place, besides sit around and blame someone else for what's wrong?
Jeez I'm and idiot for ever reading any of this stuff.
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Don’t know if I consider myself a liberal. I know I didn’t 10 years back.
I am just disgusted with the republican party.
In the last 8 years I have seen my health care cost go up my a factor of 10. There is no reason something should go up over 10X in that kind of time.
I have seen us go to war that I believe is unjust. Spending money I don’t believe this country has across the world.
We have been spending money on everything, rather than cutting spending.
We now condone torture, something I was always taught that we are better then.
We have started spying on our own citizens without warrants which I believe will be a gateway into doing everything from more street cameras to random searches of houses.
We started locking up people without trials and holding them for years before releasing them.
We have started grabbing people that are flying through our country and shipping them off to other countries to be tortured.
I have seen more of what I believe is socializing losses of big companies in the form of court reform limiting judgments against companies doing wrong.
Seeing collage go up 10% or more a year in a county where it is getting to become impossible to work with out going.
I don’t Really believe Obama will be much different, the damage is already done. But I don’t feel rewarding the same team again. I do have a small hope that something’s may change.
You may want to consider this.....
What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common?
Democrat leadership:
Detroit, MI (1st on the poverty rate list) hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1961; (47 years)
Buffalo, NY (2nd) hasn't elected one since 1954; (54 years)
Cincinnati, OH (3rd)... since 1984; (24 years)
Cleveland, OH (4th)... since 1989; (19 years)
Miami, FL (5th) has NEVER had a Republican Mayor;
St. Louis, MO (6th).... since 1949; (59 years)
El Paso, TX (7th) has NEVER had a Republican Mayor;
Milwaukee, WI (8th)... since 1908; (100 years)
Philadelphia, PA (9th)... since 1952; (56 years)
Newark, NJ (10th)... since 1907. (101 years)
*Einstein once said 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.'
It is the disadvantaged who habitually elect Democrats -- yet are still disadvantaged.......
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People for the most part are liberals because the dems have shinier, better produced commercials with more ambiguous slogans that better represent a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness followed by the promise of really cool free stuff. The rest are victims of white guilt.
Then you have the ruling class of liberals. These are the ones who are calling the shots and making the rules - because the lower echelons are too stupid to take care of themselves. These are the liberals who travel across the country and world in private jets and fleets of stretch limos telling the great unwashed masses that they must curb their energy use. These are the "do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do" liberals. They are entitled to their lifestyle because they are smarter than you.
It's actually just a culture of entitlement and guilt - each one feeding off of the other; very unhealthy.
WRONG!
:rofl
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WRONG!
:rofl
Your eloquent rebuttal has made me see the error in my beliefs.
NOT! :lol
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Plenty of level headed people have already given level headed responses.
I figured a flat out and simple response to your drivel would be easier to understand. :aok
:rolleyes:
This thread was doomed from the getgo.
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so give me a firm list of the changes that Obama wants better for America
I dont understand what kinda change he wants, for you democrats what are the changes Obama is gonna make thats gonna help our economy?
please list them so i can understand your side of the argument?
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Libs seem to have an attitude of....Screw god....screw anything that has to do with god...and I will force my way on you and you'll like it or I'll just take you to court. They don't like anything that may be in the least bit religeous. Thier freedom of speech is more important that yours. They think they are smarter. Just all in all I see MOST of the country like that. Several other thngs stick out...but why get into it.
That bit in bold is completely untrue. I am sure that there are some democrats, and some republicans who are like that, but to make sure a sweeping generalisation is just incorrect. I can say for certain that that is not true, because I do not take that attitude in the least, and whilst I am Church of England, I respect everyone else's religion and their right to freedom of religion provided that they do not attempt to infringe on my rights.
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That bit in bold is completely untrue. I am sure that there are some democrats, and some republicans who are like that, but to make sure a sweeping generalisation is just incorrect. I can say for certain that that is not true, because I do not take that attitude in the least, and whilst I am Church of England, I respect everyone else's religion and their right to freedom of religion provided that they do not attempt to infringe on my rights.
Name me a conservative that has been involved in removing the 10 commandments from a public building.
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That bit in bold is completely untrue.
Whatever happened to the word: false?
Why don't we use it anymore?
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Name me a conservative that has been involved in removing the 10 commandments from a public building.
TOP STORY!!
RedTop has been named a conservative involved in removing the 10 commandments from a public building!!
(pictures at eleven)
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Whatever happened to the word: false?
Why don't we use it anymore?
Because I had decided to use the word "untrue" instead. Nothing major.
And RedTop, removing the 10 Commandments from a public is not the only way to disrespect a religion...
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so give me a firm list of the changes that Obama wants better for America
I dont understand what kinda change he wants, for you democrats what are the changes Obama is gonna make thats gonna help our economy?
please list them so i can understand your side of the argument?
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Because I had decided to use the word "untrue" instead. Nothing major.
And RedTop, removing the 10 Commandments from a public is not the only way to disrespect a religion...
It could be a way to respect a religion
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And RedTop, removing the 10 Commandments from a public is not the only way to disrespect a religion...
I agree...lots of ways to disrespect....
I didn't say disrespect...I said that Libs dont like it....period. All libs? No...you have a point. But MOST I know or work with or have assosiation with and almost ALL on here...pretty much leave it in MY opinion....that they have no place for it anywhere...whine about it....complain...on and on and on.
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Whatever happened to the word: false?
Why don't we use it anymore?
It's no longer politically correct. As is calling someone with an I.Q. of over 140(and using their score to say they are better than all other humans) a genius, rather you have to call them "gifted".
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Name me a conservative that has been involved in removing the 10 commandments from a public building.
Not sure you could call Thomas Jefferson a republican, but I think he came up with the name
Oh, and thnx for giving me a chance to post This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWEBbFwU1o&feature=related)
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no one has still answered my question yet???? im waiting???
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no one has still answered my question yet???? im waiting???
Look, I already gave you a 6.5, don't push it
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LOL.. -2. we're gonna come out in the middle. ;)
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Name me a conservative that has been involved in removing the 10 commandments from a public building.
That's just it, Red. Most Liberals separate church and state. When you combine the two, bad things happen. You get the Dark Ages... the triumph of Dogma over Reason. Many liberals are quite religious...they simply see the need to keep governance and god as far apart as possible. As well, when you give credence to one religious sect, you take it away from others, which serves to disenfranchise a certain group or groups of people. While you may not care what anyone else thinks or feels, in this particular country the founding ideology was religious freedom, and any particular religious set of beliefs should not be sanctioned or affirmed by the state.