Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BnZ on October 05, 2008, 01:05:40 PM
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1. In observing fights between pairs of bases, I have noticed that much more often than the fight ending because one side gradually grinds down and pushes back the other to establish true air (or ground) superiority, it ends when someone on one side or the other ups a formation of Lancasters, B24s, or B17s and bombs the crap out of the hangars. This is unless they start out by bombing the hangars, in which case the fight never develops in the first place.
2. These heavies were meant for devastating industry/cities from high altitudes. The bomb load of a formation, combined with the easy accuracy of the level-bombing sites at lower altitudes, makes them almost ridiculous overkill for hangar dropping. They also render fighter-bombers, which are historically more along the lines of what you would expect to be used on such targets, almost superfluous by comparison.
3. The crux of the problem with buffs is that with a decent gunner they are nigh un-interceptable. Whereas in reality, daylight bombing with unescorted bombers proved to be disastrously costly, even with large formations, in the AHII MA it is much easier to land 3 kills of fighters than it is to hunt buffs, and everyone knows it. Thus they most often go unintercepted. To start with, a formation can under ideal conditions point up to 18 .50 caliber machine guns at a single fighter. (Fighter pilots, unlike buff pilots, do not have the option of automatically upping with 2 wingmen to help them shoot down buffs). This is a situation that makes strafing WWs look like a good bet by comparison. Because there are no convergence issues, and because a flight of buffs on autopilot is an artificially rock-solid gun platform, the effective range of all these guns is typically at least half-again that of the fighter attacking them. There is no attacking angle that allows a fighter to really take a shot at the buffs without giving them an equally good shot at him. Front-quarter or head-on attacks work for expert shots in birds bristling with cannon, but not too often for average attackers in more lightly armed planes. Furthermore, the most heavily armed planes, like 110s, 190 A8s, Mossies, etc, are not nearly as common as planes more suited to a fighter-on-fighter role, and tend to climb slowly, a definite handicap when asked to intercept buffs on short notice.
Basically, the result of all this is that unescorted buffs, which should be a prized target, are in fact avoided and usually succeed in their mission. The role of escort is almost superfluous, it could almost be said that escorts in the AH MA basically just steal kills from the buff gunners.
4. My solution to the problem? Consider disabling/perking formations for the heaviest buffs. This would tend to reduce both destructive capability and defensive firepower. Alternatively, at least make it impossible to link all defensive guns together, so that attacking fighters would be facing say 6 .50 caliber tailguns firing at them instead of 18 guns.
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"Perking formations" has already been discussed many many many times and goes back a long ways. Some are for it, some are against it.
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"Perking formations" has already been discussed many many many times and goes back a long ways. Some are for it, some are against it.
What about unlinking the guns? Short-term, perhaps a better and simpler solution.
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What about unlinking the guns? Short-term, perhaps a better and simpler solution.
Better and simpler for who? Certainly not the buff drivers.
Your post smacks of a whine by someone who is under the mistaken belief that buffs should be easy prey for any fighter that even looks in their direction. Instead of whining, why don't you just use better tactics.
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I will admint that hunting a formation of buffs and killing them is a difficult proposition. However with patience and practice it is not that hard to defeat them. I am not neither practiced enough nor patient enough to do it, but I know one that is.
The hardest stick I have ever seen at defeating buffs is snailman (aka lusche). I am sure he will pitch in here soon anyway. I have watched him take my formation apart with no hits on him from me. I am far fromthe best gunner in the game but I am not poor at it either. The way I have seen him do it is to come down from directly over top of the bombers. It is impossible to get a shot off at the attacker when he does this. The top turret cannot point straight up 90 degrees. Attacking buffs from this angle definitely requires patience but it is definitely not impossible to kill buffsin a formation.
I say leave formation flying the way it is though I do hate it when someone comes in a bust up the furball with them.
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Your post smacks of someone who want to accuse me of whining instead of actually developing a logical rebuttal. You are also quite naive if you think I have not explored the possible tactics to use against buffs. At the end of the day, as it stands in AH, there is no really reliable way to bring down a formation with a decent gunner quickly enough to prevent them from accomplishing their mission without exposing yourself to defensive fire. With small distances between the bases, not to mention limits on fighter's range, there is simply not time to bring down bombers before they reach their target by setting up supposedly "safe" passes from the front quarter (they are not appreciably safer than diving attacks from very high6) with the attendant low percentage shots. After the front-quarter attack, there will be a great deal of separation between the buff formation and the attacker, a great deal of time will be needed to get ahead of the formation to do it again, and by that time, the buffs will have dropped their ords, so there is no point. Minor things like smoking an engine or inflicting a fuel leak also don't really matter when bases average 25 miles apart.
I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time. The fighter-on-fighter stuff will more often than not be rendered superfluous, the fighter bomber is also rendered somewhat superfluous the historically interesting interplay of escort and interceptor does not get replicated, and the map is moved by whatever side has enough people willing to up buffs and toolshed the other side to death.
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Uh oh, here it comes: you're a whiner because I don't want to meet an argument head-on. Seriously, the "whiner" label is so overused at this forum it's about to become a badge of honor.
I don't have a strong opinion about this thread yet, but I'm entertaining both sides and would like a little time to think before the slurs start flying. Thank you.
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It is impossible to get a shot off at the attacker when he does this. The top turret cannot point straight up 90 degrees.
Yes, this does work. The inherent problem in the AH MA is a matter of the time it takes for setup between these attacks and the short distance the remaining 2 or 1 buffs have to go to do their work. Also, most players in the MA do not set out in terms of plane choice or altitude to hunt buffs specifically, this is another factor that tends to give them a free reign.
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Bombers by themselves should be dead meat. However if that were true here, no one would fly them. Organized bomber missions are rare, and to make them viable they have to be able to compete on their own. So in that respect I understand and accept it as necessary.
If CT is ever released though, this should be adressed. Large buff groups in scenarios are hard enough to tackle but with a bunch of head hunting AI gunners it will be rediculous. That is if CT ever comes out...
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Killing buffs is not really easy, but it's not hard either, except against the very best buff drivers. I kill full formations all the time. When I don't, it's usually because I didn't take the patience needed to recover into proper position before attacking.
I think it's just hard enough that a good interceptor has to work at it, but it's not impossible to be very successful at it if you learn how to do it properly.
As for stopping them before they drop, again there is a way to tactically neutralize their attack, but I'm not going to tell anyone how. You need to figure it out for yourself.
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We got some guys who can slaughter a Buff formation with the skill of a surgeon. Even with an accomplished Buff gunner on board they can do it. So if they can do it that means anybody else who wants to make the training effort can do it also. I cant do it cause I haven't made the effort to learn/practice how. But its on "me" not the game.
I love the heavy bombers in the game. If theres one thing I'd like to see changed is this Lanc-stuka thing, "which is just silly". A Heavy bomber should have to have a certain % of horizontal stability to be allowed to release bombs.
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I agree with the thread starter.
Being in a buff these days is more like playing that old school game - 'Asteroid'. It's pretty easy to shoot fighters down, especially the ones that slowly creep up on your six as they gain altitude.
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Also, most players in the MA do not set out in terms of plane choice or altitude to hunt buffs specifically, this is another factor that tends to give them a free reign.
So you admit that the bombers have free reign to wreck hangars because you and your countrymen/women refuse to take the appropriate aircraft to prevent that from happening?
Seems that leaving your hangars vulnerable is a conscious choice you make. If you want your hangars intact, defend them.
Not going to get a lot of sympathy from me. I will up a 190A-8 and climb to an intercept course, praying to find a buff formation to decimate.. only to end up getting raped by a typhie, spit, pony, or LGay..
Way back when, bombers were single units and we got trashed by attackers. People quit flying bombers.. too easy to kill.
With the formations enabled, that levelled the field a bit. The good and patient sticks learned how to attack them and I've even encountered a couple of pilots that killed all 3 of my B17s with a pony.
... Alternatively, at least make it impossible to link all defensive guns together, so that attacking fighters would be facing say 6 .50 caliber tailguns firing at them instead of 18 guns.
If you are stupid and impatient enough to attack bombers from the dead 6 ( they call it 'dead' for a reason ) then you deserve to die. Know when to fold 'em and know when to run.
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All in the eyes of the beholder.
I am all for the buff formations. 90% of the time, you'll see me in lancs destroying CVs and leveling Fields. ( waiting for the shaking fists and yells of "toolshedder" to arrive). but its what is considered my fun in the game.
I can see your point about being frustrated going after these formations and getting ripped apart after trying to get co-alt with them, but also remember that its not THAT easy for a guy driving buffs to complete his mission. what you need to do is change your tactics if it bothers you so much.
2 guys I pray that aren't within icon range of me when I'm in buffs is 1) Lushe and 2) Skatsr. They rip me apart every single time I confront them. they wait until I get in my bombsight and they always attack from the top and saw my wings off. works everytime unless I can ping em up and pray that they have some kills to land before my formation is annihilated.
In the meantime while your figuring out your tactics..if bombers are still a problem for you, theres 3 words out there for you..PORK PORK PORK. very easy to do.
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It's pretty easy to shoot fighters down, especially the ones that slowly creep up on your six as they gain altitude.
But there, is the problem. That is no way to attack a buff. I love it when guys try to fly up my 6 when in a bomber. They are easy kills then. But, to perk a formation? No, leave it the way it is.
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The solution vs a bomber formation is,,,a fighter gang. No problem at all.
1 fighter vs a band of bombers in WW2 would not have brought much success.
So, IMHO, AH is good there...
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I consider myself a compitent buff gunner. Believe me, it is possible to get through to me with your fighter, no matter how good of a shot I may be. It takes time and patience, but it can be done. My formations have been decimated by the best of them. Come in at high angles with lots of E. I have a hard time with orientation to lead the con effectively up there. At my level and down low, I can lead very well. If you find yourself underneath where my ball gunner can reach you, I suggest you move out of range quickly.
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The heavies typically flown in the MA can put at least 3 gun turrets on you from almost every direction. Pardon me if I think it would be fairer if attacking a buff formation were equivalent to hoing an A-20, instead of equivalent to hoing 3 A-20s.
I have already pointed out the factors that make it typically impossible to set up multiple passes properly in suffecient time to stop the buffs from accomplishing their mission, which is the whole point of going after buffs in the first places. If the fighters could intercept the buffs 100 miles from target instead of 10, things would be different, but such is not the case in the MA.
If you are stupid and impatient enough to attack bombers from the dead 6 ( they call it 'dead' for a reason ) then you deserve to die. Know when to fold 'em and know when to run.
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The solution vs a bomber formation is,,,a fighter gang. No problem at all.
1 fighter vs a band of bombers in WW2 would not have brought much success.
So, IMHO, AH is good there...
This is a good point. The problem with your argument is that I cannot check a little box in the hangar before I take off to automatically have 2 wingmen.
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2 guys I pray that aren't within icon range of me when I'm in buffs is 1) Lushe and 2) Skatsr. They rip me apart every single time I confront them. they wait until I get in my bombsight and they always attack from the top and saw my wings off. works everytime unless I can ping em up and pray that they have some kills to land before my formation is annihilated.
If they are waiting till you get in the bombsight, then you are very close to target aren't you? So close that you are liable to get the bombs from 2 or at least 1 of your remaining planes off. That is the important point, not whether the buff formation RTBs or not.
In the meantime while your figuring out your tactics..if bombers are still a problem for you, theres 3 words out there for you..PORK PORK PORK. very easy to do.
Toolshed 'em back? Oh God...let us not even get into this unspeakable dweebery.
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The heavies typically flown in the MA can put at least 3 gun turrets on you from almost every direction. Pardon me if I think it would be fairer if attacking a buff formation were equivalent to hoing an A-20, instead of equivalent to hoing 3 A-20s.
I have already pointed out the factors that make it typically impossible to set up multiple passes properly in suffecient time to stop the buffs from accomplishing their mission, which is the whole point of going after buffs in the first places. If the fighters could intercept the buffs 100 miles from target instead of 10, things would be different, but such is not the case in the MA.
So you want the game configured in such a way that you, by yourself, can detect a bomber formation with sufficient time to take off in a plane that is particularly adept at killing bombers, climb to a reasonable attacking altitude, and have enough time to make enough attacking runs that you can kill them all before they reach their target?
And how many passes would you like? 3...4? 5 if your plane only has .50s?
Like Angus said.. multiple fighters is the answer.
As some point Krusty will show up and paste in his argument that bombers are too fast ( I outrun his 262 in B24s ) and, as painful as it is, I will agree that there might be a discrepancy there. However, bombers are still too vulnerable to be killed when attacked by more than 1 at a time.
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Seems that leaving your hangars vulnerable is a conscious choice you make. If you want your hangars intact, defend them.
Not going to get a lot of sympathy from me. I will up a 190A-8 and climb to an intercept course, praying to find a buff formation to decimate.. only to end up getting raped by a typhie, spit, pony, or LGay..
Not really much in the way of argument there. You say that if buffs can run around and toolshed anybody they want to death unopposed, it is the fault of the defenders for not upping suffecient numbers of dedicated interceptors. But this proves nothing, I could just as easily turn the argument around and say that in the days of the single bombers, it was the fault of the buff pilots who got slaughtered for not enlisting more buddies to fly in formation and/or as escort.
Really to me it is about balance, and giving a buff attack a reasonable chance of failure under typical MA conditions. Getting rid of formations might indeed be swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I believe unlinking the defensive firepower might be a good moderate solution to try
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So you want the game configured in such a way that you, by yourself, can detect a bomber formation with sufficient time to take off in a plane that is particularly adept at killing bombers, climb to a reasonable attacking altitude, and have enough time to make enough attacking runs that you can kill them all before they reach their target?
You mean that on a given day, one average individual player would have a 50/50 shot of negating the strategic objective of another average individual player, depending of course on luck and skill?
EXACTLY! You get it.
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What about unlinking the guns? Short-term, perhaps a better and simpler solution.
\actually, this is most likely the best solution. period.
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Better and simpler for who? Certainly not the buff drivers.
Your post smacks of a whine by someone who is under the mistaken belief that buffs should be easy prey for any fighter that even looks in their direction. Instead of whining, why don't you just use better tactics.
not really. he's pretty much spot on.
if they unlinked the guns, BTW, it would hurt me a lot, as i fly buffs a lot, and depend on the sheer firepower to down a fighter.(as my gunnery sucks).
unlink the guns, and take gunners on board with you. it's not that hard really.
BTW...i was messin with the dot target command last night. lanc nose guns converge at 500 yds, :D
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I will admint that hunting a formation of buffs and killing them is a difficult proposition. However with patience and practice it is not that hard to defeat them. I am not neither practiced enough nor patient enough to do it, but I know one that is.
The hardest stick I have ever seen at defeating buffs is snailman (aka lusche). I am sure he will pitch in here soon anyway. I have watched him take my formation apart with no hits on him from me. I am far fromthe best gunner in the game but I am not poor at it either. The way I have seen him do it is to come down from directly over top of the bombers. It is impossible to get a shot off at the attacker when he does this. The top turret cannot point straight up 90 degrees. Attacking buffs from this angle definitely requires patience but it is definitely not impossible to kill buffsin a formation.
I say leave formation flying the way it is though I do hate it when someone comes in a bust up the furball with them.
llllusche has attacked my JU's in EW iiiin the past. it was a beautiful thing watching his precsion...even if i never did get ords on target.
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llllusche has attacked my JU's in EW iiiin the past. it was a beautiful thing watching his precsion...even if i never did get ords on target.
Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.
And I strongly suspect that if somehow you had 18 individuals in your buff formation manning every position, they would not be as deadly as a good individual gunner firing those 18 linked guns on single fighters.
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I can't believe it, but I'm actually going to side with the bomber pilots for this one.
The way I see it, the bomber pilots can only hit 2 things in the game to have an impact; HQ and airfields. Considering it takes more than 1 formation of buffs to drop HQ, a single pilot is stuck hitting airfields in the game only.
That said, I find those that kill FH (and ruin furballs) are no better than pond scum, but deep down I do have some sympathy for them.
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You mean that on a given day, one average individual player would have a 50/50 shot of negating the strategic objective of another average individual player, depending of course on luck and skill?
EXACTLY! You get it.
So.. there are 2 people in the arena.
You want the game to let you know that a formation of bombers is 2 grids away and is going to target the hangars at your base? Can't be generic here.. if it's something other than bombers, the bomber-destroyer aircraft wouldn't be appropriate for a dogfight, and then you wouldn't be very happy.
Would you like updates in case the targets are changed?
How about altitude?
How many C-47s should the other player be allowed to group in a formation to balance out against your spitfire? P47? LA-7?
btw.. unlinking was tried and the bombers still died too easily, for those of you wondering. Conversely, I believe we were able to set convergence on bomber guns to 1.0k or 1.3k at one point, and that turned out to be too deadly, so the convergence for the linked guns were set to a fixed 650.
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Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.
They could've given the JU88 a 13mm dorsal gun (like HT did at first in WB), but instead there are two pee-shooters instead. :(
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Change the clipboard map dot signature for bombers. The game has reached the point Im upgrading hardware again...so change the dot to reflect how big the bomber is along with it being a box of bombers. Or change the color of the con dot for enemy bombers to orange vs. red.
It will either cause bombers to be obsolete, or bombers getting escorts, or all bombers to fly NOE to target, or bombers squads to fly huge box missions.......but it would change the game play. Then bomber destroyers might make a come back as strategic assets.
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Your post smacks of someone who want to accuse me of whining instead of actually developing a logical rebuttal. You are also quite naive if you think I have not explored the possible tactics to use against buffs. At the end of the day, as it stands in AH, there is no really reliable way to bring down a formation with a decent gunner quickly enough to prevent them from accomplishing their mission without exposing yourself to defensive fire. With small distances between the bases, not to mention limits on fighter's range, there is simply not time to bring down bombers before they reach their target by setting up supposedly "safe" passes from the front quarter (they are not appreciably safer than diving attacks from very high6) with the attendant low percentage shots. After the front-quarter attack, there will be a great deal of separation between the buff formation and the attacker, a great deal of time will be needed to get ahead of the formation to do it again, and by that time, the buffs will have dropped their ords, so there is no point. Minor things like smoking an engine or inflicting a fuel leak also don't really matter when bases average 25 miles apart.
I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time. The fighter-on-fighter stuff will more often than not be rendered superfluous, the fighter bomber is also rendered somewhat superfluous the historically interesting interplay of escort and interceptor does not get replicated, and the map is moved by whatever side has enough people willing to up buffs and toolshed the other side to death.
wasn't trying to accuse you or anybody else of anything.
simply saying that the bombers are not completely undefeatable. There is a way to defeat them with almost 100% success. As far as them being near 100% effecctive in getting their bombs to target, I would have to say you might be right about that. On the other hand though every airfield has at least 3 FH and it is very difficult (not impossible) to get all 3 of those in one pass. This means that they may take out 2 of 3 but you will have some time to get them in the mean time while they are attempting to get turned around for 2 pass.
Try looking at it form this point of view.
If you decide to up after bombers by yourself, then you are upping 1 plane versus 3 planes. What is the difference flying into a 3vs1 with you being the 1? Not much, you know you are upping against 3 then take 2 buddies with you this will definitely offset the odds in your favor.
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llllusche has attacked my JU's in EW iiiin the past. it was a beautiful thing watching his precsion...even if i never did get ords on target.
This may seem kind of noobish here but
Usually if I get killed by Lusche when in buffs, I won't re-up in bombers back to that area again. The reason is that no need to re-up to same portion when he is going to get you and not possibly kill all 3.
Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.
And I strongly suspect that if somehow you had 18 individuals in your buff formation manning every position, they would not be as deadly as a good individual gunner firing those 18 linked guns on single fighters.
I upped B17's against Lusche before and he got all 3 of mine without taking a single hit from me. As a matter of fact I didn't even have a guns solution on him since he came from straight down. The only defense from the guy coming down like this, is to turn to get that guns on him. At this point then the good buff hunuter pulls back out and realigns (just what Lusche did) and come back after reaquiring advantage.
BTW this only worked a handful of times and I never really got a decent shot off on Lusche when this was attempted.
back to my point a good buff hunter will have no trouble taking out all 3 bombers even against the best of bomber pilots.
Want to know how to do it ask Lusche (trainer corp member)
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1. In observing fights between pairs of bases, I have noticed that much more often than the fight ending because one side gradually grinds down and pushes back the other to establish true air (or ground) superiority, it ends when someone on one side or the other ups a formation of Lancasters, B24s, or B17s and bombs the crap out of the hangars. This is unless they start out by bombing the hangars, in which case the fight never develops in the first place.Some folk think there's a capture going on and chip in with their bombers, only to wonder what the hell happened when no one follows up. Some folk see it as a way to releave the pressure on their sides base thinking their about to lose it. Some folk stumble into a capture attempt thinking it's a jolly old furball
2. These heavies were meant for devastating industry/cities from high altitudes. The bomb load of a formation, combined with the easy accuracy of the level-bombing sites at lower altitudes, makes them almost ridiculous overkill for hangar dropping. They also render fighter-bombers, which are historically more along the lines of what you would expect to be used on such targets, almost superfluous by comparison.Since the first day I got here I've NEVER understood the propensity to hanger bang. The freakin troops run to the map room not the poxy hangers. Why the dedicated bomber pilots don't automatically bomb towns is beyond me. Spend 30 min getting to alt just to pop some hangers that come up in 15 bleedin minutes....yer that makes sense. There is a time and place to hanger bang but it's a long way short of the DEFAULT target.
3. The crux of the problem with buffs is that with a decent gunner they are nigh un-interceptable. Whereas in reality, daylight bombing with unescorted bombers proved to be disastrously costlyonly if there were baddies about, you negated to add., even with large formations, in the AHII MA it is much easier to land 3 kills of fighters than it is to hunt buffs, and everyone knows it. Thus they most often go unintercepted.Because few can be bothered to set up the ideal attack To start with, a formation can under ideal conditions point up to 18 .50 caliber machine guns at a single fighter.12 guns and just for a brief moment (Fighter pilots, unlike buff pilots, do not have the option of automatically upping with 2 wingmen to help them shoot down buffs). This is a situation that makes strafing WWs look like a good bet by comparison. Because there are no convergence issues,650 is default buff convergence and because a flight of buffs on autopilot is an artificially rock-solid gun platform, the effective range of all these guns is typically at least half-again that of the fighter attacking them. Bombers travel at about half the speed a fighter can attack at. There is no attacking angle that allows a fighter to really take a shot at the buffs without giving them an equally good shot at him. high 12 straight down or as near as possible is the fastest, safest wayFront-quarter or head-on attacks work for expert shots in birds bristling with cannon, but not too often for average attackers in more lightly armed planes.Not the best way unless you want to waist time getting back into them Furthermore, the most heavily armed planes, like 110s, 190 A8s, Mossies, etc, are not nearly as common as planes more suited to a fighter-on-fighter role, and tend to climb slowly, a definite handicap when asked to intercept buffs on short notice.
Basically, the result of all this is that unescorted buffs, which should be a prized target, are in fact avoided and usually succeed in their mission.Hence there's no baddies about that can be.....BOTHERD The role of escort is almost superfluous, it could almost be said that escorts in the AH MA basically just steal kills from the buff gunners.
4. My solution to the problem? Consider disabling/perking formations for the heaviest buffs. This would tend to reduce both destructive capability and defensive firepower. Alternatively, at least make it impossible to link all defensive guns together, so that attacking fighters would be facing say 6 .50 caliber tailguns firing at them instead of 18 guns. A far better solution would be to revive the old calibration style of pushing your stick forward and holding a spot and where you had to use salvo's to insure success.
Sorry mate but this post seems akin to a grief rather than a solution. Your obviously not a bomber user or you'd have a different tail to tell. Low bombers under 10k are a perk points waiting to happen. As a rule of thumb heavies take about a sector to make that alt and that doesn't allow for accurate calibration because your still gaining speed. As for the 20k bomber that's travelled 3 sectors then you either ignore the dar bar or you get alt. If you can't be BOTHERED then that's his good fortune for taking the time to get 20k....you can't have it both ways I'm afraid.
As I see it the only way your likely to stop a solo set of bombers taking out the hangers is the old calibration method. If implemented then perhaps towns would be more of a priority or a coordinated 2 or 3 man bomber mission would have to be used. This way the dar bar from 3 sectors away may be of more significance but, from this post, I doubt it.
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I think the bottom line is if you dont have the patience, skill, and the right bomber killer, then your probably better off not coming into bomber formations with a poor attack solution. Just the other day I had a guy in a 110 come right into the "6" of my Lancs and just hang there at 1,000k shooting it out with me. Obviously he was going to lose, even against rather poorly defended Lancs. Had he taken the time to setup a good attack angle he probably would have aced at least 1 or 2 Lancs, and maybe all of them.
A 190 A-8 coming in at warp factor 9, when he has about 5,000' on you, is a very difficult target to hit hard enough to put down. The better bomber killers are very heavily armed, but make no mistake, a fighter armed with 6 0.50s is perfectly capable of aceing any bomber formation in the game.
I only upp bombers a few times a month nowdays. But back when I was flying them a lot I considered the 30 eny KI-67s the most dangerous bomber in the game attack-wise. Not just cause they are heavily armed, even tho they are, but the thing is they are so fast they force the impatient to either adopt a poor attack profile, or, just plain not bother attacking.
Thats what the great bomber hunters all have, "patience". And that was the first thing I would notice when they were setting up on me. If I saw they were patient I figured I have a pretty hard time ahead.
So dont blame the game for your own impatience. In real life it took a lot of guts for fighter pilots to come into all the heavy machine guns of bomber formations. And a lot came in but never came out, and if you had bad luck or made a poor decision it was a long, long way down. There was nothing left of these guys to even bury.
Aces High has done a great job recreating the bomber war. I dont think anything should be changed, other then this Lame Stuka act.
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So.. there are 2 people in the arena.
You want the game to let you know that a formation of bombers is 2 grids away and is going to target the hangars at your base? Can't be generic here.. if it's something other than bombers, the bomber-destroyer aircraft wouldn't be appropriate for a dogfight, and then you wouldn't be very happy.
Would you like updates in case the targets are changed?
Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about changing radar set up.
How many C-47s should the other player be allowed to group in a formation to balance out against your spitfire? P47? LA-7?
Very silly comparison. The whole point of having to run a vulnerable transport aircraft or vehicle in to effect capture is that achieving superior force in that that will be requirement if such a sitting duck is likely to get through. Whereas buffs tend to succeed regardless of air superiority.
btw.. unlinking was tried and the bombers still died too easily, for those of you wondering. Conversely, I believe we were able to set convergence on bomber guns to 1.0k or 1.3k at one point, and that turned out to be too deadly, so the convergence for the linked guns were set to a fixed 650.
What is "too easily"? If that means a lone guy in an unescorted buff formation fails to reach the target half the time, I'd say that is just enough. Like I say, there are many aiming difficulties for buff gunners that are not represented in AHII, I think allowing them to train the six .50s from 3 fighters is quite fair to them, and gives a good buff driver under MA conditions a fair chance of destroying/driving off a fighter and still arriving on target with at least one bomber.
To those who have said "Bring a gang of fighters to attack a formation" repeatedly: One buff pilot should on average be so effective that it takes the combined efforts of 2 or more fighter pilots to stop him most of the time? That would be the very definition of "unbalancing" IMHO. I don't see HTC making it possible for fighter pilots attempting to intercept to bring two spare planes, just doesn't seem practical. :devil
BTW, those of you who think I just plain have it out for buff pilots, see some of my posts about giving bombers meaningful strategic targets to hit.
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Thats what the great bomber hunters all have, "patience". And that was the first thing I would notice when they were setting up on me. If I saw they were patient I figured I have a pretty hard time ahead.
Again, a point that many are missing is there is most often simply not TIME to attack buff formations in this ultra-patient manner and prevent them from hitting their target. And since there is no attrition factor, destroying the bombers after the fact does not achieve any strategic objective except possibly putting the bomber pilot back up in a new formation quicker.
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What is "too easily"? If that means a lone guy in an unescorted buff formation fails to reach the target half the time, I'd say that is just enough.
And there is your problem. You have an unrealistic expectation that the bomber pilot's experience in this game should completely suck just so you can have a better time than your 90% enjoyment.
So what if he gets through? Hangers are down for 15 minutes, and as you stated earlier, the bases are very close together. Therefore, your enjoyment of upping fighters is not really affected to any significant degree.
The bases are laid out such that no single buff formation can take out all hangers on a base in a single pass. So your argument of "one buff pilot" having a disparate affect is silly. IF (very big IF) there are any fighter pilots who care to be bothered, they can intercept the single buff formation before he finishes the job.
If he is too high to do so, then the pilot has taken himself out of the fight for 20 minutes or more just to gain enough altitude to be "uninterceptable" by your definition. That means his side is down a man for all that time, and therefore again, there is no unbalancing aspect to it.
The fighter has every advantage in speed and agility a one-on-one situation with a heavy bomber. Massed firepower was the bomber's only defense against interceptors -- something the box only allows a flavor of -- and you want to take even that small equalizer away.
Yep, still smacks of a whine to me. "Make it so no one can hurt me if I don't want them to. It isn't easymode enough for me, and I don't want to be bothered with having to compensate for my opponent's one defense."
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And there is your problem. You have an unrealistic expectation that the bomber pilot's experience in this game should completely suck just so you can have a better time than your 90% enjoyment.
Paper tiger. Not worth answering, except to say that once again, if you think I have some vendetta against bomber pilots, you are full of it.
The fighter has every advantage in speed and agility a one-on-one situation with a heavy bomber. Massed firepower was the bomber's only defense against interceptors -- something the box only allows a flavor of -- and you want to take even that small equalizer away.
Agility doesn't matter terribly much against something that can point its guns at you from practically every angle. Thinking it over, I've already dismissed the idea of getting rid of the formation, in favor of allowing them a potent amount of defensive firepower instead of a ridiculous amount.
Interesting how everyone ignores the point I brought up about the escort role being superfluous as things stands.
Yep, still smacks of a whine to me. "Make it so no one can hurt me if I don't want them to. It isn't easymode enough for me, and I don't want to be bothered with having to compensate for my opponent's one defense."
Insult is the last refuge of the out-argued.
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When I can't intercept a formation before they get ords off, I'm just as happy making them pay for it while they try to RTB. My .02
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Before the USAAF started escorting the bombers all the way to Germany the Luftwaffe's favourite method of attack was to slowly creep up the bomber's six. They slaughtered 60 bombers out of 370 in one day over Schweinfurt and Regensburg. Even after the USAAF started escorting the bombers all the way the Luftwaffe shot down three bombers for every fighter they lost.
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3. The crux of the problem with buffs is that with a decent gunner they are nigh un-interceptable.
Bombers are probably the easiest things to shoot down other than a C47. I'm really amazed that someone is asking that the bomber formations be perked or even think a formation is nearly undefeatable. Every bomber in this game has a very exposed weakness, attacks from above at a 45 degree angle dive aiming for the wing root or forward area (cockpit), attacks like this will usually result in a bomber going down on each pass.
If you have troubles, I will be more than happy to teach you how to properly attack bombers.
ack-ack
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Paper tiger. Not worth answering, except to say that once again, if you think I have some vendetta against bomber pilots, you are full of it. No, it is exactly on point. By your own admission, you only want bombers to be able to drop their bombs 50% of the time or less. What fun would it be for someone who wants to shoot planes down if he only managed to find a plane to shoot at less than 50% of the time? Sounds boring to me. If someone wants to blow stuff up, but only gets to do so less than 50% of the time, it would be equally boring / pointless.
Agility doesn't matter terribly much against something that can point its guns at you from practically every angle. Thinking it over, I've already dismissed the idea of getting rid of the formation, in favor of allowing them a potent amount of defensive firepower instead of a ridiculous amount. :lol Agility doesn't matter? The fighter is able to change his direction at will to throw off the aim of the gunners, but that doesn't matter? Meanwhile that huge, lumbering buff is flying straight and level, but that doesn't give the fighter pilot a seriously large advantage to his aim? Is that what you are seriously saying?
Interesting how everyone ignores the point I brought up about the escort role being superfluous as things stands.
Everyone ignores it because it is superfluous to your contention that the buff is somehow unbalancing.
Insult is the last refuge of the out-argued.Perhaps, instead of pretending I have insulted you, you should take another long look at your argument and recognize there are large flaws in it. To me, the flaws are such that it can hardly be taken as a serious attempt at a discussion of the issue, hence the label I used -- of your argument, not of you.
Lynx for one pretty well disected it.
I invite you to re-read your suggestions from the standpoint of someone who enjoys, or at least participates, in the bomber aspect of the game, and see what kind of conclusion you come to. It sure appears to be saying bombers should be defenseless and should not be allowed to have an impact on the game -- which is basically the same as saying you want them to go away. Pretty insulting if you ask me.
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lol, try to shoot down a set of bombers with 999000 in em ROFL, u would b shot down like 30 times b4 u got 1 of his planes burnin
-BigBOBCH
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A single fighter can easily "suicide 6" into a single buff, guns blazing. Bombers are way too vulnerable with no formations, which is why they were added to the game. Bombers would all but disappear with no formations, and the ones that did show up would be at 27k to avoid interception :rolleyes: It would make matters much worse. I like to see bombers in the game, it adds extra dimensions, just like GVs do.
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After all these posts and different points I'd like to say...
Bnz is right that heavy bombers are overpowering tactical weapons in the game. That said, the others are probably right that you wouldn't see heavy bombers if things were otherwise.
It would make me happy if...
1. Formations were disabled for scenarios and FSO's. With enough people, drones are unnecessary. 10 bomber pilots all using the n key to fire the guns of 30 buffs is too much.
2. Fix the warps.
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Something no one has pointed out: Buff-hunting would be more fruitful if there were no 2x fuel burn multiplier. As things are, climbing up to 20k+ to search for bombers leaves you little fuel in a lot of the good bomber killing aircraft, when patience counts for everything.
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I originally agreed with the OP as I am always shot down instantly by buffs and when I see others attack them they tend to fail as well. One poster said the LW had a 3:1 kill ratio against US buffs so I checked AH scores. Here's some representative ratios of kills vs killed when going against B17Gs: FW190A8 = 3.0, Me109G-14 = 2.2, P51D = 1.9, Spit IX = 1.6, P38J = 4.0, F4U1C = 3.9, Me262 = 8.4 (as you might expect). So, doesn't seem too far from reality. I don't like that answer, but that's the data.
I do think, however, that bombing is way, way too easy. I never fly buffs.. i.e. absolutely never. But I took up some Lancs once, read the online directions for the first time while in the air, and proceeded to destroy all my targets perfectly. That's just too accurate and too easy.
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A single fighter can easily "suicide 6" into a single buff, guns blazing. Bombers are way too vulnerable with no formations, which is why they were added to the game.
Which is why when I thought about, I realized no formation was too extreme a step, and advocated instead eliminating the ability to shoot with all guns from all 3 buffs in the formation.
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"By your own admission, you only want bombers to be able to drop their bombs 50% of the time or less. What fun would it be for someone who wants to shoot planes down if he only managed to find a plane to shoot at less than 50% of the time? Sounds boring to me. If someone wants to blow stuff up, but only gets to do so less than 50% of the time, it would be equally boring / pointless."
What do you mean? The average k/d ratio in fighter is what, 1? Less? Presumably, if they don't get intercepted, they get to blow something up, and if they do get intercepted, they see action in the form of getting to shoot at fighter planes. So I don't really see what the objection is.
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Bombers are probably the easiest things to shoot down other than a C47. I'm really amazed that someone is asking that the bomber formations be perked or even think a formation is nearly undefeatable. Every bomber in this game has a very exposed weakness, attacks from above at a 45 degree angle dive aiming for the wing root or forward area (cockpit), attacks like this will usually result in a bomber going down on each pass.
If you have troubles, I will be more than happy to teach you how to properly attack bombers.
ack-ack
I disagree. In my experience, the average MA fighter pilot is less dangerous mano-a-mano than the average MA buff gunner.
I know the "right" way to attack buffs, learned it from Skatsr a long time ago for Pete's sake, the problem being there is usually not time to set up multiple passes of the proper sort to prevent bombs reaching target unless you are already at higher alt than the buffs in a relatively fast plane. And even with the best setup, a good gunner still tends to kill you before you get all his planes.
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I will admit that hunting a formation of buffs and killing them is a difficult proposition. However with patience and practice it is not that hard to defeat them. I am not neither practiced enough nor patient enough to do it, but I know one that is.
Dead on comment !
I'm an average pilot and only fly spitfires(mid-war). ALL buffs are EASY targets when using "patience" and proper tactic ! I don't care how good of a gunner, when I dive from 12high at 400-450mph, I rarely get pinged...
I've seen other pilots use the same tactic and I'm a fair gunner and can't get a shot at the plane bouncing me with that tactic :mad:
As others have mentioned, check around and ask for help and practice.
The only time where I was shot hard is when more than 1 formation is flying together.
When you have experience pilots flying in tight formation of bombers, ya better have the SPEED to get in and out because you will be heading home with no paint scheme on your kite :(
You have some good points about bombing the crap out of hangers when they were used for other targets in WWII
Phil /OPP7755
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You are making the presupposition of time enough to 1. Get in position well above the buffs, 2. Make a front-quarter attack, which will put a large degree of horizontal separation between you and the buffs after the pass, and then get ahead of the buffs again for another such pass two more times before they reach their target.
Dead on comment !
I'm an average pilot and only fly spitfires(mid-war). ALL buffs are EASY targets when using "patience" and proper tactic ! I don't care how good of a gunner, when I dive from 12high at 400-450mph, I rarely get pinged...
I've seen other pilots use the same tactic and I'm a fair gunner and can't get a shot at the plane bouncing me with that tactic :mad:
As others have mentioned, check around and ask for help and practice.
The only time where I was shot hard is when more than 1 formation is flying together.
When you have experience pilots flying in tight formation of bombers, ya better have the SPEED to get in and out because you will be heading home with no paint scheme on your kite :(
You have some good points about bombing the crap out of hangers when they were used for other targets in WWII
Phil /OPP7755
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Again a key factor is "patience" or like you're saying "time"
1. Proper position before the initial pass. (average 2.5 above and in front of buffs)
With the above alt, you will dive from 12high and with a 2-3sec well placed, the buff will blow or break. With that speed(350-450mph) you will be in position for a second pass in seconds !
I've destroyed buff formations with SpitV and still had cannon rounds left for a dog fight....
I'm just the average pilot and many are above me in skills. It can be done with minimum practice BnZ !
Salute Sir
Phil / 7755
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Bomber formations are really really really easy to shoot down and shooting them down will improve your hit percentage since they are such big targets its hard to miss them. Sorry BNZ but I cant agree with anything you have to say on this one since I escort bombers every time I am online and fly them even up to 30k altitude and I see how easy they are shot down ALL THE TIME. AHII already has so many concessions to make things easy for finding fights and the maps we have are so big its hard to agree with you at all. I am glad that our efforts at shutting down hangars is finally being noticed. :D
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The reason the hangars are getting dropped is fuel can no longer be porked.
If fuel could be porked back to 25% you will find a return to attack style of play utilising the fighter/bombers more.
It really only limits the amount of time you can be up in defence, if you want more come from the next base, and you will probably have an alt advantage then :aok. If you're upping an La7 from a field under heavy attack you'll likely not use 25% of your fuel anyway.
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Bomber formations are really really really easy to shoot down and shooting them down will improve your hit percentage since they are such big targets its hard to miss them. Sorry BNZ but I cant agree with anything you have to say on this one since I escort bombers every time I am online and fly them even up to 30k altitude and I see how easy they are shot down ALL THE TIME. AHII already has so many concessions to make things easy for finding fights and the maps we have are so big its hard to agree with you at all. I am glad that our efforts at shutting down hangars is finally being noticed. :D
I can only say that even using the "perfect" setup with all the time in the world I still RTB a plane too damaged to go play with fighters after I "do my duty" on Buffs all too often, and my experiences are far from unique.
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I will remind you that I have said before that nine out of ten times when I attack bombers they never hit me. If you attack properly they have a very narrow window of opportunity to shoot at you and they must have perfect lead to hit you at all. When attacking bombers properly it doesnt matter if they have radar directed gun fire they just dont have a chance.
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The poster you speak of wrote "Even after the USAAF started escorting the bombers all the way the Luftwaffe shot down three bombers for every fighter they lost."
IOW, the figure includes interceptors shot down by escorts. Surely this means the k/d ratio of the interceptors against the bombers themselves would be much higher. Whereas the figures you reflected interceptors killed by bombers alone.
I originally agreed with the OP as I am always shot down instantly by buffs and when I see others attack them they tend to fail as well. One poster said the LW had a 3:1 kill ratio against US buffs so I checked AH scores. Here's some representative ratios of kills vs killed when going against B17Gs: FW190A8 = 3.0, Me109G-14 = 2.2, P51D = 1.9, Spit IX = 1.6, P38J = 4.0, F4U1C = 3.9, Me262 = 8.4 (as you might expect). So, doesn't seem too far from reality. I don't like that answer, but that's the data.
I do think, however, that bombing is way, way too easy. I never fly buffs.. i.e. absolutely never. But I took up some Lancs once, read the online directions for the first time while in the air, and proceeded to destroy all my targets perfectly. That's just too accurate and too easy.
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I will remind you that I have said before that nine out of ten times when I attack bombers they never hit me. If you attack properly they have a very narrow window of opportunity to shoot at you and they must have perfect lead to hit you at all. When attacking bombers properly it doesnt matter if they have radar directed gun fire they just dont have a chance.
If the speed and angle is giving the gunners a short, low% firing window, it is also giving YOU a short, low% firing window.
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Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.
And I strongly suspect that if somehow you had 18 individuals in your buff formation manning every position, they would not be as deadly as a good individual gunner firing those 18 linked guns on single fighters.
you are exactly right sir. like i said...although it would hurt me too, as my gunnery sucks, i do believe that the buffs ARE unrealisticly hard to kill.
since everyone likes comparing to the real life equilivent, then consider this.
you're attacking ju88's from the dead six. there are only 3 of them. in rl, there is no place that the dorsal AND the ventral guns could fire on you, along with both from the other two ships.
same with lancs. dead six approach. you've got the tail turrets, AND top turrets firing on you at one point or another.....from ALL three ships. with individually manned guns, it would be much easier to kill buffs, as it was in rl. take gunners with you, and if you cannot man all the positions, he can jump from gun to gun as you can........
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They could've given the JU88 a 13mm dorsal gun (like HT did at first in WB), but instead there are two pee-shooters instead. :(
:D
maybe in an update?
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If the speed and angle is giving the gunners a short, low% firing window, it is also giving YOU a short, low% firing window.
Look for some videos Challenge has posted on this topic I have seen film of a formation taken out with less than 40 rounds per plane. With no hits from any gun on the bombers.
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This may seem kind of noobish here but
Usually if I get killed by Lusche when in buffs, I won't re-up in bombers back to that area again. The reason is that no need to re-up to same portion when he is going to get you and not possibly kill all 3.not noobish at all. it's you making an informed choice is all it is. lusche is very very good at what he does. generally when i'm attacked in my buffs, i can pretty much remove important pieces of your aircraft...evenif i lose mine. lusche was the first that didn't allow me to get a single round in him during his attacks.
I upped B17's against Lusche before and he got all 3 of mine without taking a single hit from me. As a matter of fact I didn't even have a guns solution on him since he came from straight down. The only defense from the guy coming down like this, is to turn to get that guns on him. At this point then the good buff hunuter pulls back out and realigns (just what Lusche did) and come back after reaquiring advantage.
BTW this only worked a handful of times and I never really got a decent shot off on Lusche when this was attempted.
back to my point a good buff hunter will have no trouble taking out all 3 bombers even against the best of bomber pilots.
Want to know how to do it ask Lusche (trainer corp member)
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zuii posted a film of a perfect pass on a set of lancs in his zeke.
All three dead in less than a second. :O
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I can only say that even using the "perfect" setup with all the time in the world I still RTB a plane too damaged to go play with fighters after I "do my duty" on Buffs all too often, and my experiences are far from unique.
Then you're not doing it right. It's been my experience (I am something like 50-1 against bombers of all types) that bombers are easy to shoot down as long as you use the proper tactics against them but YMMV.
ack-ack
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Given a careful measured approach, bomber formations are pretty easy to take out. I think we can all agree to that. But I think the crux of the issue is that the way that the game works now, it is very difficult to make that careful measured approach BEFORE the bombers have the chance to deliver their payoad. Anybody can take the buffs out AFTER they have dropped, no hurry at that point.
All that said, I'm not certain what the solution would be. The problem is that bombers aren't used in this game like they were in real life. They don't travel for hundreds of miles, possibly passing over spotters along the way. With the short warning distances in AH2, there just simply isn't time to get into position, most of the time.
Really, the flaw is more in the way that the maps are designed and the way that airfields are employed currently in game.
What if aircraft had to pass over several "spotter" locations on the way to any Base? Maybe the Bombers would be visible on the map as long as they were over head of the spotter. The spotter could even provide altitude and aircraft and directional type info. But as soon as the planes are out of line of sight, the info vanishes from the map.
Something like this might give enough warning that a pilot paying attention to the spotter info well enough to get an earlier warning might have a better chance of intercepting the bombers.
It might also have the added benefit of discouraging NOE missions into undefended bases.
Just a thought.
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If the speed and angle is giving the gunners a short, low% firing window, it is also giving YOU a short, low% firing window.
Thats right and since my entire aircraft is pointing where I want the bullets to be when they arrive its much easier for me to make delivery a success.
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Thats right and since my entire aircraft is pointing where I want the bullets to be when they arrive its much easier for me to make delivery a success.
Yep, that's why when I make my pass I am diving at a 45 degree angle, nose pointing between the cockpit and nose. My angle makes it extremely difficult for the gunners to track and when I fire, my rounds usually impact the cockpit or wing root area. With the P-38's guns, not much can survive a solid burst to the wing root or cockpit area.
ack-ack
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But there, is the problem. That is no way to attack a buff. I love it when guys try to fly up my 6 when in a bomber. They are easy kills then. But, to perk a formation? No, leave it the way it is.
I get a MAJOR kick from this arguement, since in AH the buff is flying full max throttle and never slows down to drop his bombs or for any other reason. The climbing fighter has NO chance to setup for anything BUT a six shot since by the time he gets there the speeding buffs have left him in trail.
Facts are simple when buffs were correctly modeled they were easy targets, as they were in the war, and no one wanted to fly them so adjustments were made, the adjustments are abit out of whack but not enough to warrant a major rewrite to fix it.
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First off, Tral you are a toolshedder :D
When I buff hunt, 110 with rockets 1K off their six. I love watching their wings fall off. :aok
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But there, is the problem. That is no way to attack a buff. I love it when guys try to fly up my 6 when in a bomber. They are easy kills then. But, to perk a formation? No, leave it the way it is.
i agree, if one is so stupid as to fly into your dead 6 , they deserve to die, like so many have posted before me in this thread. also, if you cant take the time to set up angles, or be patient enough to wait for them to get into their bombsight, you deserve to saddle up on the "dead 6" of the buffs and get chewed apart. when i do buffs i dont normally have a cannon to spare, so im stuck with .50's, however, you get your shot place right, and conistant, like the ing or engine, you can kill the buff easily. its not rocket sciencce to figure out how to effectivly kill buffs, and hopefully put a damper on their mission.
just my 2 cents, carry on Lads
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Buffs are free victories in my book, unless they are being piloted by Dantoo of course. I think Bruv can agree with me on this one.
Just come in high, fast and try to avoid the 6 o'clock shot.
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it's just like everything else in the game. If you come across a well flown and gunned bomber who knows his stuff he can be very tricky to take down.
Luckily 80% of bomber pilots in AH are of the free kill type (if they don't bail out before you get to them :t) , can't bomb worth a poop and are just making up numbers.
I think the bomber setup in AH is fair for both parties and I don't see a problem with it.
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My experience tells me a good fighter pilot vs a good bomber pilot....the fighter pilot wins! and can make the good bomber pilot look silly!
<S> 999000
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buffs are really not that hard to take out(unless that 1 particular ##s guy is flying them :D). anyway, with the correct approach i can kill buffs 90+% of the time. if i get impatient i die. if i do it right, the buffs die. when i fly buffs, i usually die 90+% of the time if attacked. so to me the buffs are to weak and should be tuned up to accommodate me :O.
NOT
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"The climbing fighter has NO chance to setup for anything BUT a six shot since by the time he gets there the speeding buffs have left him in trail"
So what? sometimes you can set up an interception, and sometimes you cant. Just like in real life. Nobody forces you to press a bad attack, thats your call. Most bomber formations can be over taken with some time and patience. I have rolled fighters off the runway on inbound buffs at 12k and intercepted them with alt and speed.
Too many on this thread that think bombers are just supposed to explode in flames because you looked at them. Pfft.
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Bombers die... and sometimes so do I...... oh well.
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Bomber accuracy is a killer for CVs.
Historically level bombers were extremely bad at hitting ships on the open sea, that is in no way reflected in Aces High where level bomber accuracy is ~15 yards from target with the calibration system as opposed to ~1000+ yards (guestimate) as it was.
The old calibration system was better, but too many people found it too difficult and the system washed away in a river of tears to be the easy mode we have now.
I remember the really easy mode, where you could deack an entire base using the firecrackers on the B-26, so it has been worse.
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Bomber accuracy is a killer for CVs.
Historically level bombers were extremely bad at hitting ships on the open sea, that is in no way reflected in Aces High where level bomber accuracy is ~15 yards from target with the calibration system as opposed to ~1000+ yards (guestimate) as it was.
The old calibration system was better, but too many people found it too difficult and the system washed away in a river of tears to be the easy mode we have now.
I remember the really easy mode, where you could deack an entire base using the firecrackers on the B-26, so it has been worse.
I agree with Furball. CV sinking is too easy. In Bishland, I'm asked many times to go sink this boat or that boat, and more often than not it goes down, unless the other side has a defensive cap over it, or someone is really good in the 5" guns. As far as the old calibration system? Yes. Bring it back. In our squad, a long time ago, we formed a bomber wing which specialized in hitting targets with the old method. Not everyone could do it, but a few of us did get proficient at it. I hated to see it go.
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You said,"I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time."
I disagree, I would say its more like 50-90 percent chance of a bomber not making it back to land. I fly bombers frequently, I have seen particular planes that can shoot and hit from a distance that is beyond the range of the bombers guns, some planes can attack and flame the wings with a ping. So, I dont see any unfair advantage, rarely did one plane attack a flight of bombers in formation, they worked in packs.
If your looking to buzz the formation and take out 3 bombers in one swoop, your sadley mistaken. They already have a huge disadvantage by being so slow and not manuevarble, hence the massive guns onboard to protect itself.
When I attack with bombers and the cons are high, I go higher and the poor guy that climbs up to meet me usually just wastes his time cause he finds himself in the tower because he doesnt know how to attack a flight of bombers.
I have found that many priamarily will go after bombers not because they are defending anything, but for easy kills. Yes I said it, easy kills. This is due to the skills of pilots that fly the bombers and since they rarely fly them or if a noob, you should fly bombers more often and see how much a disadvantage you really have.
There are some good pilots that have learned to attack them and are successful at it, and are far more easier kills than working on another fighter if done properly.
The only other advice I can give you, dont attack bombers until you get some skills to do so. :salute
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Yep, that's why when I make my pass I am diving at a 45 degree angle, nose pointing between the cockpit and nose. My angle makes it extremely difficult for the gunners to track and when I fire, my rounds usually impact the cockpit or wing root area. With the P-38's guns, not much can survive a solid burst to the wing root or cockpit area.
ack-ack
This is exactly how I attack them, given the opportunity. Still get hit alot. Granted, the 24s at least do have the magic "wingroot, instant fire" button. B-17s are actually worse to encounter IMHO.
Seems like even in starting with an altitude advantage in something crazy fast like a D9, the number high-speed, high-angle passes you can make before having to enter a lengthy phase of A. Climbing up above the buffs (at least 1500 yards higher to avoid the guns) and B. Chasing them back down after you do this is maximum 3.
I notice the P-38 actually had a good K/D ratio against buffs, its centerline firepower can reach out there to counter the questionable accuracy possible with a buff's defensive guns.
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You said,"I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time."
I disagree, I would say its more like 50-90 percent chance of a bomber not making it back to land. I fly bombers frequently, I have seen particular planes that can shoot and hit from a distance that is beyond the range of the bombers guns, some planes can attack and flame the wings with a ping.
Whether the bombers LAND or not is unimportant. I won't even chase one that has expended its ords and is RTB. Whether or not they take out their target before being destroyed is what his whole thread has been about.
What fighter gun out-ranges the .50s? I have been pinged at 1000 yards by buffs. Now from a standpoint of ballistics, .50s can be very accurate at extreme range, but unrealistically, we have no air currents, slight movements of the buff the gunner is riding in, we have icons, etc, all extending the effective range of gunner positions. Whereas, yes fighters in AH also might be able to shoot at much longer ranges than were typical, but the fact they are using nose-mounted armament and have to "fly" to their gun solution introduces at least a little platform un-steadieness. Fighters typically face convergence issues. These two things mitigate the long-range shooting ability of fighters down to less unrealistic levels.
So, I dont see any unfair advantage, rarely did one plane attack a flight of bombers in formation, they worked in packs.
That is quite correct. And if HTC makes it possible for me to click a little box in the hangar and automatically have two wingmen flying with me when I hunt buffs, I'll not say anything more about the buff issue.
When I attack with bombers and the cons are high, I go higher and the poor guy that climbs up to meet me usually just wastes his time cause he finds himself in the tower because he doesnt know how to attack a flight of bombers.
Or he doesn't have any choice, because if he takes the time to do it correctly, the buffs will have already leveled the field.
BTW, I flew a formation of Ju-88s in the last FSO. I am not a buff flyer at all, although I do have experience shooting in flaks and field guns. With pea-shooters mind you, I was easily pinging attacking fighters badly enough to force them to set back up and come from angles where I had no gun coverage. With U.S. bombers and their .50s, I would probably have been KILLING fighters and they would have been out of luck for finding an angle where I had no guns.
Well, as it was, I was very glad to see the Yaks show up, as they saved me having to RTB the %@#% slow thing. I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone flying interceptor on the Russian side. :D
EDIT: I just checked my stats from that event. I shot down TWO fighters, and I know I put some more out of the fight. With no experience, and a damned pea shooter armed Ju-88! :rofl
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With no experience, and a damned pea shooter armed Ju-88!
I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.
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by BnZ
Interesting how everyone ignores the point I brought up about the escort role being superfluous as things stands.
Not really. Whats interesting in this game is the majority of guys are to fixated in their gunsite to even look up let alone to press Esc and look at the dar bars on the map. When I fly bombers I never take an escort or request one the reason being most fighters will be lower than me and can't be bothered. So why would I even need an escort.
by Anaxogoras
Something no one has pointed out: Buff-hunting would be more fruitful if there were no 2x fuel burn multiplier. As things are, climbing up to 20k+ to search for bombers leaves you little fuel in a lot of the good bomber killing aircraft, when patience counts for everything.
Never heard of drop tanks or taking 100% fuel? If you can't read the map all the fuel in the world isn't going to help you. You need to develop a sixth sense for buff hunting and there's no better experience than flying bombers to understand the tactics they use.....just a thought.
by BnZ
You are making the presupposition of time enough to 1. Get in position well above the buffs, 2. Make a front-quarter attack, which will put a large degree of horizontal separation between you and the buffs after the pass, and then get ahead of the buffs again for another such pass two more times before they reach their target.
That's 3 or 4 times you've mentioned this attack method....get this....it's not the best way. I don't care who taught you. If you want a set of bombers killed in double quick time there is only 1 best way....straight down or near to it as possible. Fire early because you'll be doing close on or above 400MPH. Aim for the cockpit or wing. Extend forward then loop over for the repeat straight down and extend forward again. To best appreciate this try and point b17's / b24's top turret straight up.....you can't. Then try tracking / leading a 400 mph fighter ....very difficult.
by BnZ
I can only say that even using the "perfect" setup with all the time in the world I still RTB a plane too damaged to go play with fighters after I "do my duty" on Buffs all too often, and my experiences are far from unique.
Sorry chap, not getting pissy with you but your experience is flawed. The above quote only tells me your getting it wrong....repeatedly.
As for other quotes about "before they drop" well friend they got through...simple as that. If you ain't got the alt or speed then you ain't got the alt or speed. Your call to creep up slow on their 6 and take it in the face. No one is forcing you to make that call except you. Kill them after the drop if you want or just let them go but he can only get 2 fighter hangers per run. Up to you if you take the time to get above him for his second and final pass.
by BnZ
If the speed and angle is giving the gunners a short, low% firing window, it is also giving YOU a short, low% firing window.
As I've already said aim for the head shot or wing. If you can't hit a big, lumbering, slow, fat, bomber then worrying about bombers is the least of your problems.
From Oliver Twist in the words of studin (wordinator won't let me type the guys name fa gin) "shut up and drink your Gin" "review the situation" and where bombers are concerned "stay calm"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPpaplpgjaw
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You said "Whether the bombers LAND or not is unimportant. I won't even chase one that has expended its ords and is RTB. Whether or not they take out their target before being destroyed is what his whole thread has been about."
Landing is just as important to the pilot flying a bomber as well as a fighter especially if he has kills. Don't use the "well he bails" after a run, since alot of guys do that in porking runs also but I assure you they wont when they rack up kills.
You have to come up with tactics to prevent them from destroying targets/base, example, pork ords, air cover, etc. This is not just about two fighter planes frolicking in the sky kind of game, it brings the many dynamic aspects of Sea, Air, Land warfare, there are many logistical targets and preventable measure to deploy, if your not willing to do these things, then bombers will have their way.
It sounds to me you care only about the furball not about the capture or the win. In my view, I am going for a capture in any means necessary, if you don't defend it, its a freebie, if you put up a fight and want a furball, I will go to your next weakest link, I will not fight your fight, I make them fight mine. :salute
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I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.
:rofl :O
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SNIP
you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.
Which really is the crux of the matter.
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I didn't read all six pages but you've just got to learn how to attack buffs.
A couple of camps ago I was around 10 K/D against the heavies with almost all those kills in a Spit XVI (I was at 24-0 against them at one point in the camp). Last camp I had good numbers against buffs too while flying around 40 different aircraft, many against them (I even managed to kill 3 Lancasters with a Spit I on a single sortie).
[EDIT] OK, so I got to the beginning of thte second page. There is plenty of time to take out all three buffs before they reach their target. First; Start high almost directly over the formation, roll inverted and begin to dive on them. Once you have your angle set invert and pass through for kill #1. Pull up almost vertical. At the top, roll 180 degrees and pull back on the stick. You are now inverted directly over the formation again. Rinse and repeat and all three are gone in under a minute.
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I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.
Ah, baloney. It shoots what these guys have say about the firepower available to a B-24 or B-17 being barely adequate out of the water when I shoot down 2 fighers and badly wound several more in one of the most poorly defended bombers in the game. And I'm a bad shot.
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[EDIT] OK, so I got to the beginning of thte second page. There is plenty of time to take out all three buffs before they reach their target. First; Start high almost directly over the formation, roll inverted and begin to dive on them. Once you have your angle set invert and pass through for kill #1. Pull up almost vertical. At the top, roll 180 degrees and pull back on the stick. You are now inverted directly over the formation again. Rinse and repeat and all three are gone in under a minute.
If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.
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If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.
Incorrect if you do the attack correctly.
ack-ack
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If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.
Nope. You climb almost vertical so that, as I said in the first post, when you roll it over at the top you are once again sitting directly over the formation. Due to this starting position and taking the buffs speed into consideration the dive angle is ~60 degrees on all three passes. The only guns that ever get a shot at you are the uppers and they are difficult to track with as you cross directly over them headed to the canopy or the wing root.
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"""""If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.""""""
if i have time to set them up, it turns into a fun fight. i sometimes have trouble regaining a good attack position, but i can do it. it just takes SERIOUS patience.
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He just wants to have the same Guns and Cloaking ability as wonder-womans jet so he can take out those pesky evil bombers,,, :lol :lol :lol
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Don't listen to all these great fighter pilots!!!!!!!!!!!! us bomber piltos are doomed!..Best advice for a fighter pilot attacking a bomber formation is to grab the right plane first ..like a SPD ...then ever so slowly line up on the "DEAD" six ..get within 200 before shooting because you don't want to miss or waste your ammo.......
<S> 999000
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Don't listen to all these great fighter pilots!!!!!!!!!!!! us bomber piltos are doomed!..Best advice for a fighter pilot attacking a bomber formation is to grab the right plane first ..like a SPD ...then ever so slowly line up on the "DEAD" six ..get within 200 before shooting because you don't want to miss or waste your ammo.......
<S> 999000
:rofl
Thats the man to listen to :rofl
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An attack like this can be carried out for a long time if needed, and is quite tough to defend against. I generally need 3 passes to kill a formation, about 10% of the time it takes four passes.
Granted, I started out way above these buffs, but you'll notice I chopped throttle and maintained reduced throttle for the first pass. I normally wouldn't do that. My attack is also very casual here since I had plenty of E- I drop much further below the group than normal, and take my sweet time coming around for pass two and three.. I do use the this same tactic for most of my buff-killing, but seldom with that much of a starting alt advantage. This is against Lancs, but the tactic works against any bomber. It's toughest against B26's.
http://www.mediafire.com/?lhzcchded2c (http://www.mediafire.com/?lhzcchded2c)
I'm a furballer, so should probably feel differently, but IMO the bombers are too "weak". I'd rather see formations of 4 - 8, rather than any reduction in their defenses. If they get our hangers, BRAVO! they deserve it. Their tactics beat ours...
I do think the bomb-aiming is too easy though, and dislike the dive-bombing heavies, but have no qualms against the guns.
I don't attack them often from poor positions, but when I do I might die. That's OK, I deserve to die then. When I use decent tactics I seldom have any problems.
Patience in setting up an attack, or foresight in making sure you're in position to defend your field is rewarded. So is patience on the part of the bomber pilot, in climbing to a defensible altitude. Lack of patience/use of poor tactics on the fighter pilot's part results in a dead fighter pilot. Lack of patience/use of poor tactics on the part of the bomber results in a dead bomber pilot.
Sounds fair to me.
MtnMan
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Hunting buffs is a tricky thing in many planes/circumstances. I don't know that there needs to be a major change though. I routinely attack buffs from a high 6 position and kill one or two per pass without taking any real damage. From the top, the buff has no chance at all. No offense to those who disagree but I'm doing this in a pony, a cannon bird would be even more effective.
OTOH, the OP is right that it takes time to set up these attacks and the short distances between bases means that it's not always practical.
Some ideas I've had:
Have buffs show on dar farther out.
Have buffs show on dar as a different color than other radar cons. They have a bigger radar signature, is this unrealistic?(historically speaking)
Link the drone guns by position. In other words, if the gunner is in the tail position, only the tail guns of all three planes would fire.
Reduce bomber accuracy as related to bomber speed.
Thoughts?
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Don't listen to all these great fighter pilots!!!!!!!!!!!! us bomber piltos are doomed!..Best advice for a fighter pilot attacking a bomber formation is to grab the right plane first ..like a SPD ...then ever so slowly line up on the "DEAD" six ..get within 200 before shooting because you don't want to miss or waste your ammo.......
<S> 999000
actually, i have troule hitting them then. i like the low six. bigger,....eerr.....i mean harder yet for me to hit em there :O
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Nope. You climb almost vertical so that, as I said in the first post, when you roll it over at the top you are once again sitting directly over the formation. Due to this starting position and taking the buffs speed into consideration the dive angle is ~60 degrees on all three passes. The only guns that ever get a shot at you are the uppers and they are difficult to track with as you cross directly over them headed to the canopy or the wing root.
Exactly. I do this all the time and I'm usually good for at least two of the three buffs. Depends on the buff driver. The smart ones throw you a curve by pulling up when you're almost within range. Then it becomes a crap shoot.
"Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes he gets you", ain't that right Triple-9? :D
Of course, afterwards I usually end up gliding home :uhoh, but that's just part of the job. ;)
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Haven't read the entire thread but how about just upping the hardness of plane and vehicle hangers to 8,000 pounds and 2,000 pounds for ords and troops. I'm of the opinion that knocking down bases and ending a fight should be made a bit tougher.
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Hunting buffs is a tricky thing in many planes/circumstances. I don't know that there needs to be a major change though. I routinely attack buffs from a high 6 position and kill one or two per pass without taking any real damage. From the top, the buff has no chance at all. No offense to those who disagree but I'm doing this in a pony, a cannon bird would be even more effective.
OTOH, the OP is right that it takes time to set up these attacks and the short distances between bases means that it's not always practical.
Some ideas I've had:
Have buffs show on dar farther out.
Have buffs show on dar as a different color than other radar cons. They have a bigger radar signature, is this unrealistic?(historically speaking)
Don't know about that, but ever see pictures of the contrails they made at high altitude....those things forming for several hundred miles over your territory might constitute a clue. :D Good idea Steve.
Link the drone guns by position. In other words, if the gunner is in the tail position, only the tail guns of all three planes would fire.
That is what I've been advocating. It seems logical that if you had no formation, wouldn't really matter if the buff pilot destroyed a lone fighter, his sortie would likely be over after being attacked anyway. But I think the ability to concentrate six 50 calibers effective to ranges of 1000 yards is a perfectly fair defense, and if the fighter destroys one of his bombers while being destroyed, the bomber pilot still has two more.
Reduce bomber accuracy as related to bomber speed.
Thoughts?
I don't know about that, although certainly pickle-barrel bombing is a heckuva lot easier in AHII than in reality. One poster was worried that if any of my ideas were implemented, bombers would all go to 20+K. Well I say that SURELY this would reduce their accuracy in hitting such targets as an airfield. Plus, if a guy in a Ta-152 could climb to 30K with a reasonable expectation of meeting 25K buffs escorted by 30K Jugs, this would IMO constitute a healthy change in the "all down in the weeds, all the time" MA.
And just in case I haven't mentioned it in the last hour or so, give the buffers some meaningful strat targets in each country's hinterland to hit!
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They could limit bombers to their historical roles. Rough example of what i am thinking: -
4 engined heavies
Bombs do not drop in a dive, bomb sight does not calibrate below, say, 8,000 feet (yes i know low level raids like ploesti happened, but most were from alt), bombs will not drop if vertical speed is more than 100 feet per minute.
2 engined medium bombers
Bomb site will calibrate at any alt, bombs will not drop if vert speed is more than 100 feet per min
Dive bombers
Can calibrate/drop whenever
Would also see some of the current hangar queens used i think.
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It's easy to kill buff formations. Just need some good tactical planning. You say that day bombing raids were costly against the US, but do you think the German fighters came up on the B17 and B24's tail at 250mph? No. They would come in with good tactical planning. Get to the buff's high 2 or 10, and dive in with a lead angle so you sweep just barely out of his tail gun's range.
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i love hoing bombers because there pilots are always at the back of the plane not the front and if you hit the cotpit it is a one shot kill
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I already said I attack bombers all the time but just a little more information might come in handy. Last month I shot down 46 bombers (if you consider the Il2 a bomber... 35 if not) to one death (a B24 bombed me in the gv hangar). Squad mates have learned to rein me in if I see bombers because they are such easy meat I will attack them under any circumstances.
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It's easy to kill buff formations. Just need some good tactical planning. You say that day bombing raids were costly against the US, but do you think the German fighters came up on the B17 and B24's tail at 250mph? No. They would come in with good tactical planning. Get to the buff's high 2 or 10, and dive in with a lead angle so you sweep just barely out of his tail gun's range.
It really wasn't the fighters that made the 8th AF day raids so costly. It's a little known fact, but flak was far more effective against buffs during the war than fighters. By the end of May 1944, flak accounted for ten times as much damage as fighters. This in spite of the fact that the German's never developed proximity fuses for their AA rounds.
Reference: "Operations Analysis in the U.S. Army Eighth Air Force in World War II" By Charles W. McArthur
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Bombers by themselves should be dead meat. However if that were true here, no one would fly them. Organized bomber missions are rare, and to make them viable they have to be able to compete on their own. So in that respect I understand and accept it as necessary.
If CT is ever released though, this should be adressed. Large buff groups in scenarios are hard enough to tackle but with a bunch of head hunting AI gunners it will be rediculous. That is if CT ever comes out...
:aok
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Something no one has pointed out: Buff-hunting would be more fruitful if there were no 2x fuel burn multiplier. As things are, climbing up to 20k+ to search for bombers leaves you little fuel in a lot of the good bomber killing aircraft, when patience counts for everything.
P-47N with max gas and triple tanks will give you nigh 2 hours of flight time at approximately 25-30K feet. Ta-152 with a drop tank will give you over an hour easily.
I used to fly dedicated bomber hunting missions in P-47N's. If you don't care about your K/T, you can rack up some monster numbers. Get to altitude in a position where you can defend a few strats and some strategically placed airfields. Climb away from the fight, and then hover along your patrol track at 25-30K. Open up the Clipboard map and search for Dar Bar a couple of sectors behind the fight. Since you're above 25K, the P-47 can cover a sector in 3-4 minutes at approx 400 TAS. That gives you a 150mph+ overtake speed even if you're in trail of them, meaning you will catch them from a full sector behind in 10 minutes.
I'll caveat this by saying that most people don't have the patience, at least at the time, to properly set up and defend against bombers. It takes dedicated anti-bomber support, especially if there's a furball around the field at 5,000 feet and below, and a formation scoots in at 18K. No one should ever have the expectation that anyone within the radar ring of a base is going to be able to intercept before the ordnance release point. You have to pick them up early--but if you do pick them up with a bit of altitude and speed, they are dead meat everytime, even in big formations.
One night, myself and two squaddies landed 15 kills out of a group of around a dozen formations of B-24's (36 planes or so) in a tight formation. We saw them from far away on the map, climbed to altitude in P-47D40's and had our way with them.
Unescorted bombers in AHII are simply targets.
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I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.
Ah, baloney. It shoots what these guys have say about the firepower available to a B-24 or B-17 being barely adequate out of the water when I shoot down 2 fighers and badly wound several more in one of the most poorly defended bombers in the game. And I'm a bad shot.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
So, you are telling HiTech he is full of it?
Good luck with that. :D
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
So, you are telling HiTech he is full of it?
Good luck with that. :D
Forgive my lack of enthusiasm for boot licking. For more damning evidence in that regard, check my sig.
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I already said I attack bombers all the time but just a little more information might come in handy. Last month I shot down 46 bombers (if you consider the Il2 a bomber... 35 if not) to one death (a B24 bombed me in the gv hangar). Squad mates have learned to rein me in if I see bombers because they are such easy meat I will attack them under any circumstances.
they're easy for YOU. remember though, what is easy for you is not necessarily easy for someone else.
you guys that find it easy can share tips? or films to help those of us that don't find it easy?
i still attakc em, but don't have a great track record agianst em.
<<S>>
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you guys that find it easy can share tips?
I already did... but don't listen to me... I want them all to myself.
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they're easy for YOU. remember though, what is easy for you is not necessarily easy for someone else.
you guys that find it easy can share tips? or films to help those of us that don't find it easy?
i still attakc em, but don't have a great track record agianst em.
<<S>>
I have posted films before and they should still be on youtube. I know they are not the best quality there but until I find a codec that saves to a high quality format and works with Vista (still waiting on DivX) Im stuck to create anything better.
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I already did... but don't listen to me... I want them all to myself.
:rofl
i'll be going back and reading your posts more closely.....yours are generally very informative, and well stated. :aok
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I have posted films before and they should still be on youtube. I know they are not the best quality there but until I find a codec that saves to a high quality format and works with Vista (still waiting on DivX) Im stuck to create anything better.
oooo......somehow i missed that before....i had no clue you had some there.......will look tomorrow at lunch break
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I cut most of them down to a single pass thinking it was enough to see how it was done. I caught heat from a couple people because I didnt show the entire film. I can upload the entire film if you like (if its not TOO big) but I think you can get the idea from one clip. The idea is to setup so you have enough speed to make it very difficult for the bomber to track you at all. You also want to give him the impression he can shoot you from the upper turret while pointing to the front of the bomber but you will actually attack from slightly to the rear and moving VERY fast so the upper turret is unable to turn back to a point where you can be fired at. All of the bombers return fire will be behind you if you do it right.
This film is from an attack I made on two rook B26 formations with a P51D. I had just dropped the ord at the base they launched from and I wanted to end their chances of hitting our field. I took my time having already been hit by ack at their field I didnt want to take even a single ping (and we all know how hard a B26 can hit you). The entire film is something over 19 minutes long and if I have the time I may convert it and post it too. This single pass clip is the only film I have saved at the moment.
http://vimeo.com/1903433
And this is a more graphic representation (with an Me163) even though I dont feel like it is all that good in execution it did work and with the paths turned on you can see what I mean about the approach on the bombers.The first attack is a blatant HO of course but that is forgiveable in setting up the rest of the attacks. Also you should know on the last attack I am completely blacked out while firing.
http://vimeo.com/1903559
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Forgive my lack of enthusiasm for boot licking. For more damning evidence in that regard, check my sig.
The fact that you had to check logs to know that you got 2 kills is telling. How do you know that they were not proxies? Or golden bb before auger?
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The fact that you had to check logs to know that you got 2 kills is telling. How do you know that they were not proxies? Or golden bb before auger?
I've slept since then. All I remembered was pinging the crap out of stuff. Fact remains that people have been telling me how barely adequate the firepower on a buff formation is, how "fair" it is that they can check a little box and get two extra planes to help them, and how they need to be able to concentrate every gun of the formation on incoming fighters to stand a chance at all. Well, turns out, even the relatively lousy firepower of the Ju-88s is dangerous linked and in formation. If you can shoot in a wirbel, you can shoot in a bomber formation. You don't even have the vibration effect you get in a wirbel when shooting from the gunner positions, so your accuracy at 1000 or so yards tends to be a little better.
BTW, this was a situation where things were fubar because we never saw our escorts, and the opposition KNEW bombers would be coming in somewhere and had a week to adequately prepare defenses/designate some squads to specifically defend against buffs, and had hundreds of miles of territory in which to intercept the bombers. Under MA conditions, anyone with a little sense ups bombers in such a way that they hold the cards in surprise and initiative, every time. All these posts about "this is how I easily destroy buffs from an altitude advantage in a speed burner" ignore this fact. Upping a formation of buffs is the one thing an individual player can do to have an effect on moving all out of proportion to anything else he can do. Under conditions where a base is actually being defended, I'd say a high-altitude bomber attack by two people in buffs is more likely to gain you a base than a CV attack with a dozen participants.
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BTW, checked my k/d stats against B-24s for a few tours back.
104: 5/1
103: 7/0
102: 2/0
101: 8/0
So you see, this has nothing to do with whether or not I personally have trouble attacking buffs, as you can see, on the rare occasions I do attack buffs, I make a profit on doing so. I suspect the difference between me and the 40/1 boys on buffs is that I only attack the things when defense makes doing so mandatory, and then I attack to stop them from dropping their ordinace, whether or not I have time to set-up properly.
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OK BNZ it sems that your biggest problem here is the fact that the fight that you are involved in gets ruined. Right?
well I'll tell the one thing ticks me off the most when I finally find a great and fun furball. It is the base takers sneaking in with gv's and taking the base.
Now there is a big furball killer. Let's take out the base taking abilities in the game too. While we are at it. :aok
I mean nothing kills a big fight more times than a base take.
:rofl
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Bloody hell....9 pages just to come up with this...
by BnZ
So you see, this has nothing to do with whether or not I personally have trouble attacking buffs, as you can see, on the rare occasions I do attack buffs, I make a profit on doing so
So the "fire all guns" is pretty much a mute point. In effect your agreeing bombers are easy meat, which they are if they don't have altitude on their side. Their slow, big, cumbersome and have to fly straight n level to make their drop. Sitting bloody ducks really especially considering the majority of buff user don't take gunners and or escorts.
So this leaves the devastating effect bombers have on YOUR style of game play. I can marginally sympathise but get a grip mate. It's not like the hangers are down for an hour and in most cases there down for about 10 to 12 min max. It's not like another furball will not develop elsewhere. I mean if you can't be arsed then another furball wont happen :rolleyes:
I will concede that bombing accuracy is way to easy and personally I would like to see the return of the old calibration, salvo, delay method. However I don't think that's on HTC's agenda any time soon or curtailing the dive bombing heavy's. I assume it's something to do with newbies and affording them (newbies) a messure of gratification so the addiction really kicks in :D but that's my assumption. :uhoh
by BnZ
Upping a formation of buffs is the one thing an individual player can do to have an effect on moving all out of proportion to anything else he can do. Under conditions where a base is actually being defended, I'd say a high-altitude bomber attack by two people in buffs is more likely to gain you a base than a CV attack with a dozen participants.
Kaa-Ching.. You do realise this is a multi faceted game with different styles of game play and, different types of players. It's the MA chap....it's all here in one big arena. Can't deal base takers, bombers, Gv'ers, 5 inch gunners then your in the WRONG place. As clear and as simple as that.
Jesus!... man!...you may as well start a thread about HO's.....I'm outta this one. It's going nowhere very slowly.
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Better and simpler for who? Certainly not the buff drivers.
Your post smacks of a whine by someone who is under the mistaken belief that buffs should be easy prey for any fighter that even looks in their direction. Instead of whining, why don't you just use better tactics.
1 player, 1 plane.
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OK BNZ it sems that your biggest problem here is the fact that the fight that you are involved in gets ruined. Right?
well I'll tell the one thing ticks me off the most when I finally find a great and fun furball. It is the base takers sneaking in with gv's and taking the base.
Now there is a big furball killer. Let's take out the base taking abilities in the game too. While we are at it. :aok
I mean nothing kills a big fight more times than a base take.
:rofl
Hey, I'm the guy whose always thought the "1 suicide 190 takes out ords, 1 jabo takes out VHs, GVs have a free hand" loophole was bad.
That said, and individual in a GV just doesn't have the same effectiveness. Try taking out ALL hangars on a base with a T-34 and HE rounds. Time yourself. I'll see you next week some time.
As it stands, with regards to moving the map, everything you can do besides upping heavy buffs and leveling the field is ineffective by comparison.
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Them's fightin' words in your sig, Bnz! :O
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Under MA conditions, anyone with a little sense ups bombers in such a way that they hold the cards in surprise and initiative, every time. ... I'd say a high-altitude bomber attack by two people in buffs is more likely to gain you a base than a CV attack with a dozen participants.
Oh please! You can't read a map either?
Most of the heavies climb at ~5K/sector (1K/min). A "high alt" bomb run then has to start 4-5 sectors away from the intended target in order to get to alt, stabalize speed and calibrate before reaching the target. WHAT A SURPRISE when they show up!
Tip: Look for small darbars upping far away from the fight.
And how can you NOT have time to intercept? I mean, what are you flying that takes over 20 minutes to get to 20K?
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That said, and individual in a GV just doesn't have the same effectiveness. Try taking out ALL hangars on a base with a T-34 and HE rounds. I'll see you next week time.
As true as the above quote is a few gv's sneaking into town and taking down town and maproom kills the fight at that base much longer than a single formation of bombers can do.
Aside from that I was simply pointing out that there are many aspects of the game that stop great fights. I just think there are some that happen more often than the lone bombers formation.
Someone also stated that taking down hangers usually only stops fighters form taking off for at the most 10-12 mintues and usually it's only 5-7 minutes. Either way the furball will restart somewhere else. I have seen it several times and usually it irritates me but only long enough to find where the furball moved to.
To be completely honest the ones that irritate me the most are the ones that insist on coming in and taking the base where our great furball has finally gotten good. The thing is though there is nothing I can do about it and my type of game play is not the only or the most popular or the best way to play. It is just one way and like everyone else you simply need to learn to read the map to be able to find what you like to do and prepared for someone to ruin it for you.
Oh and by the way there some who feel the best way to play is to fly around ticking people off, so I say if you want to give them what they want then continue getting mad enough to post over the bb's about it and sure enough they will continue.
Just my take on the situation not really intended to be a personal slam there BnZ
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And how can you NOT have time to intercept? I mean, what are you flying that takes over 20 minutes to get to 20K?
Heavy buffs at max level speed roughly cover 25 miles (1 sector) in 5 1/2 minutes.
A 109K4 can do the same, but including taking off from sea level and climbing to 10k. If just climbing, the 109 will be past 20K after the same time.
Heavy bomber level speeds may be unrealistic, but so is the fighter pilots ability to be back at the bombers after a few mins when being shot down by them. A bomber pilot being shot down is no more threat for a long time.
Having formations is important for game balance. Removing formations makes them even more dead meat than they are now, and the few very dedicated bomber players will invariably tend to cruise at even higher altitudes, 25-30k bombers would probably the norm, not the exception.
Unless bombers fly at 20k+ they are easy to catch and to kill, in almost any plane. It's simply not true that fighters can't keep up or overtake them, only ha few EW planes have such problems. (Though I killed 999000 in a Hurri I once... a day to remember :D)
(http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/571/speedcompnt5.jpg)
The only real problem is, as already pointed out in this thread, the lack of patience. It's amazing how people can spend 5mins to climb up to a bomber, and then are too impatient to spend another minute or two to gain a favorable attack position.
A very common sight in the MA: A bomber formation at 10k, followed by a trail of greedy fighters creeping up at their 6. One after one goes down in flames, and the whining about "friggin lazer guns" starts. It's just the same as flying right head-on into an enemy 110's gun arc, and then complaining about "lame HO's".
It's sure, not everybody will reach 10-1 KDs versus buffs, but everybody could get a very favorable K/D against them if flying just with a bit more brain ;)
I do occasionally fly buffs myself, and only a small percentage of fighters care to get into a good attacking position. Those that do usually kill me, even when not being one of that "1337" pilots.
And yes, even with proper tactics a victory over that buffs is never guaranteed...but frankly, why are you looking for guaranteed kills? Why should someone fly buffs when they are completely helpless?
And keep in mind that the majority of buff pilots are new / inexperienced players, one common road of progression in this game is to jump into a fighter first, die a lot, and then flying bombers for a long time until feeling comfortable with the game and trying fighters again ;)
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Good post Lusche and if I could add....In real life when German fighters took off to attack the endless droves of bombers over their cities they did not and were not "expected" to come back with multiple kills. Their goal was to bring down at least one (1) heavy bomber and make it home alive. Yes our formation of buffs can open up with all guns but that is all we have. In WWII you would never see only 3 B-17's or 24's flying in formation over NME territory. They had numerous other friends (read lots of other guns firing at all angles) with them for defense. The key is to spend that xtra few minutes to climb higher and attack from a different angle other than dead six. I'll admit that I attack from the 6 sometimes with the hope that the pilot is afk or doesn't know how to fire all guns, or is just a bad shot. Sometimes I go in knowing I will die but I am only trying to throw the pilot off his bombing run or trying to take one or two out to keep them from fullfilling their mission. Sometimes I am "softening" them up or catching one on fire getting em ready for the other guys climbing up. You know I saw Pacerr (hope it was Pacerr :) in a Tempest killing 17's with one pass. His stated tactic against 17's? Aim for the cockpit and kill the pilot and he was deadly at that. Didn't use the same tactic against my paper Lancs tho. :)
LTARogue
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Head on or oblique co-alt attacks. High AoA oblique and head on attacks. 6 only as a last resort when impatient and lazy or drunk.
It is the big deal you guys make it out to be. If the conga line turned itself into a tight formation and attacked dead 6 maybe one would die before all the buffs go down.
It's an aspect of the game that can be countered and there aren't that many good buff guys on at the same time.
Personally I find 26s the hardest of the lot to kill because you have to use the oblique pass method thanks to the nose guns.
I don't think it deserves a comment as much as the fact that the Tiger is now needlessly perked. For instance. IMO.
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Your post smacks of someone who want to accuse me of whining instead of actually developing a logical rebuttal. You are also quite naive if you think I have not explored the possible tactics to use against buffs. At the end of the day, as it stands in AH, there is no really reliable way to bring down a formation with a decent gunner quickly enough to prevent them from accomplishing their mission without exposing yourself to defensive fire. With small distances between the bases, not to mention limits on fighter's range, there is simply not time to bring down bombers before they reach their target by setting up supposedly "safe" passes from the front quarter (they are not appreciably safer than diving attacks from very high6) with the attendant low percentage shots. After the front-quarter attack, there will be a great deal of separation between the buff formation and the attacker, a great deal of time will be needed to get ahead of the formation to do it again, and by that time, the buffs will have dropped their ords, so there is no point. Minor things like smoking an engine or inflicting a fuel leak also don't really matter when bases average 25 miles apart.
I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time. The fighter-on-fighter stuff will more often than not be rendered superfluous, the fighter bomber is also rendered somewhat superfluous the historically interesting interplay of escort and interceptor does not get replicated, and the map is moved by whatever side has enough people willing to up buffs and toolshed the other side to death.
The "problem" you misidentify isn't that the formations of 3 BUFFs are destabilizing, but that most players are either too impatient or lazy to climb to 12-15K to kill them, When most of the nooblings do up to try to stop the BUFFs from "nuking" their base, they foolishly approach from the BUFFs low 6. I am surely not the first player to discover that a SINGLE buff will shoot you out of the sky of you are at his low six and climbing to within guns range.
This is an issue of tactics and priorities not the structure of the game.
To me the solution is simple, KILL the enemy BUFFs before they drop your hangers!!! Dealing with fighters over the "target" will at least effect the accuracy of the BUFFs drop and you might even get a kill or two! There is no shortage of good BUFF hunters in AH... I've been shot down by most of 'em. Watch, listen and learn... then apply those lessons. Otherwise I have a very nice round of Brie to go with your whine!
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The real problem as I see it is that just like with CVs there isnt anyone willing to provide top cover for a 'furball' and so a bomber always will get though and stop the 'fun.' There are other ways to have fun you know and I know for a fact the bomber pilot is having fun too.
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Is it just me, or is an important part of this entire equation being severely glossed over in this thread?
It isn't that bombers are too hard to shoot down. The issue is that they are too hard to INTERCEPT BEFORE they have the chance to deliver their payloads, which makes them unreasonably powerful when it comes to a single formation shutting down the FH's on an airbase, for instance.
But whatever, I guess...
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Is it just me, or is an important part of this entire equation being severely glossed over in this thread?
It isn't that bombers are too hard to shoot down. The issue is that they are too hard to INTERCEPT BEFORE they have the chance to deliver their payloads, which makes them unreasonably powerful when it comes to a single formation shutting down the FH's on an airbase, for instance.
But whatever, I guess...
Just because it causes problems at one fight does not make it unbalancing to the game as the title and original post implies. That is where the posts regarding how easy it is to kill them comes into play.
Bombers do have the ability to ruin the large furballs and large scale fights for certain bases and maybe without much of a chance of resistance, but in the overall scheme of things they are not that unbalancing.
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Not at all unbalancing I would say because most bomber pilots tha want to 'drop hangars' attack a field from just 12-14k and its really really easy to circle a fighter or two on the edge of the fields radar circle and intercept them. Now if you are like most furballers and you are circle fighting at 3k and below then of course you wont get there in time and you will have to get a snack or beer until the hangars come back up or even find another furball.
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Is it just me, or is an important part of this entire equation being severely glossed over in this thread?
It isn't that bombers are too hard to shoot down. The issue is that they are too hard to INTERCEPT BEFORE they have the chance to deliver their payloads, which makes them unreasonably powerful when it comes to a single formation shutting down the FH's on an airbase, for instance.
But whatever, I guess...
I think buffs should show up on Dar sooner(farther out) and that their dot on dar should be a different color to reperesent the larger radar signature they would reflect.
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I think buffs should show up on Dar sooner(farther out) and that their dot on dar should be a different color to reperesent the larger radar signature they would reflect.
I think instead of this though the radar should indicate 3 dots in formation.
Don't quote me here but I think the radar of the period would at least show the number of craft approaching. I am sure that someone will chime in here to confirm of correct.
I think this is the best change that could be made to game in regards to the OP's complaint about bombers, but I don't think that they shouild eliminate the formations.
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I think instead of this though the radar should indicate 3 dots in formation.
Same difference only my way would clutter dar less.
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Same difference only my way would clutter dar less.
yes same but some pilots in game do very well flying in formation as well and still leave a small chance of an element of surprise.
same general idea but with small positives for either.
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Yes, I have been convinced that no formations would give the buffer too little chance of actually putting any bombs on targets. I believe the ideas of making bombers readily identifiable on radar and limiting the defensive firepower to one position from all 3 bombers are better.
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all it takes is people when a group from my squad attacks buffs they r dead and quickly
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all it takes is people when a group from my squad attacks buffs they r dead and quickly
::snicker::
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As an almost exclusive bomber pilot for the Sic Pups on the bishops, I don't see how buffs are an unbalanced item in the game. Flying solo with any of the heavies, as a bomber pilot, success depends upon how one chooses the target. Sure, with a few passes over a small or medium base, one formation can cause serious problems. However, one fighter with angles causes major problems for the buffs. Two fighters attacking the formation with coordination compounds the difficulty for the buff pilot exponentially.
Even with linked guns it is by all means not a guaranteed kill for the bomber. We all love to see the attacking fighter making the 6 o'clock approach (hell, Sic Pups even slow down to help those fighters out :devil), but the guys making highspeed angled passes is almost a sure bet to get one bomber if not all 3.
Regarding this threads topic, things are fine as they are, in my opinion. Both bomber pilots and the attacking fighters should learn the best tactics for offense/defense in this case.
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Summary of this thread:
Unhappy fighter pilot: Waaaaaa.....I can't tell where the bombers are or even when to up to look for them.
Happy Bomber Pilot: Nener nener nener......
Steve had a good idea. Make the bomber dot a different color and have it show up on dar 2x dar ring out.
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I hunt bombers.... lol
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Guys and Gals, really no need to hunt bombers ...we usually are just trying to drop bibles on the town for our prisoneers.<S> 999000
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This whole thread is preposterous. Really think about this. I see bombers I lick my chops. I want to go after them. I'll take a minute or two to study the map to see if anything is coming out of a high alt base. I suppose who started this well see buffs while flying a spit and thinks he can kill em. Take the right plane for the job. We don't up spit I's and Hurri MkI to kill town. Grab a heavy cannon plane like Chog. They can take abuse from 50 cals. Better yet take a jug. They are aw some at high alt. The TA 152 is a bomber hunter. I've chased b17's up to 30K before and it really works well. The thing is you take a zero or some paper airplane up to hunt a bomber, well most of us will put u in the tower. Be smart about your attacks and don't try to sneak up on there 6. Try the German air to air rockets. AH has lots of good bomber killers at your disposal, you just need to practice and execute better. There are signs of a noob in the gunners position. You see him shooting 2k Plus then let em exhaust his rounds. Either way he probably cant hit you diving in on him from 4o'clock or 8o'clock position. I'm sure everybody has a different bomber killer but I like these the best. Try a Mosquito as well.
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OTOH, the OP is right that it takes time to set up these attacks and the short distances between bases means that it's not always practical.
Some ideas I've had:
Have buffs show on dar farther out.
Have buffs show on dar as a different color than other radar cons. They have a bigger radar signature, is this unrealistic?(historically speaking)
Link the drone guns by position. In other words, if the gunner is in the tail position, only the tail guns of all three planes would fire.
Reduce bomber accuracy as related to bomber speed.
Thoughts?
While some have commented on these ideas, I think it is fair to say that it hasn't been enough. Excellent ideas on the increased dar range, bombsight accuracy and dar color. They all make a lot of sense and would possibly be an enhancement to the gaming experience that would get more people to bomber hunt.
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Special icons on dar? :rolleyes: colors? :rolleyes: You get one dar bar going to HQ and no one ups to stop it. This change would make no difference. Its easy to find bombers now and yet you are asking for a special aid to point them out? Steve this doesnt sound like you... maybe you were tired when you suggested it?
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Special icons on dar? :rolleyes: colors? :rolleyes: You get one dar bar going to HQ and no one ups to stop it. This change would make no difference. Its easy to find bombers now and yet you are asking for a special aid to point them out? Steve this doesnt sound like you... maybe you were tired when you suggested it?
Bomber looked different on dar historically... your poorly conncealed insult is noted.
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Bomber looked different on dar historically... your poorly conncealed insult is noted.
No they didnt not in WWII. No insult I was asking you nicely to reconsider.
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No they didnt not in WWII. No insult I was asking you nicely to reconsider.
The contrails, and the fact that the Americans bombed your factories yesterday, the day before, and every clear day for as long as anyone could remember, was a pretty good HINT to what those wall-to-wall radar signatures were. :lol
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No they didnt not in WWII. No insult I was asking you nicely to reconsider.
Are you saying that 3 bombers in formation would look the exact same on radar as one fighter?
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Hi bombers are responsible for alot of death and a B-17 at 20,000 when your climbing up to him is raw hell to over come, but if you take that extra couple of minutes to get 5000ft highter than the guy, the outcome can be very diffrent.
I like FW-190d's because they climb well, and K-4's for the same reason, (plus the 30mm)
It's all about setting the guy up for pass, making a quick accurate shot at a vulnerable spot, and getting back out of range to set up on him again.
Though i've met bomber pilots in the air that can pull off some amazing deflection shots, even when im jinking like a mad man, and way out at 1.5...
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What I am saying is that radar systems in WWII didnt work like you might think. For one thing the 'dot' you see in the MA didnt exist on radar scopes then. The radar systems in WWII (particularly during BOB) worked by detecting doppler shifts in transmitted waves and a spike on the operators scope meant objects were headed in his direction or a valley would indicate receding objects. A radar operator in those days would never know things like numbers or size of aircraft and thats about as clearly as it can be stated. At the outbreak of WWII only one system was capable of detecting aircraft beyond about three kilometers and fortunately the British had it.
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Lotta ground based observation was used to detect numbers, and radar was like a big fiinger pointing out where the baddies where.
I believe they could detect very large formations, and figure a rough estimate of alt however.
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Early radar systems were useless for determining altitude.
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Early radar systems were useless for determining altitude.
I didn't say anything about dots... I asked if a formation of buffs would have the exact same signature as a lone fighter.
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There was no way to identify plane types during WWII without visual observation of the flight. Radar equipment of the time could not distinguish between a B29 and a Me109.
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Wikipedia says Chain Home could detect range, direction, and altitude. Also a good operator could estimate size of the formation from the shape of the return signal.
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More on radar here: -
Chain Home Defence Radar: http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/ch/chainhome.htm
Ground Control Intercept Radar: http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/gci/gci.htm
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There was no way to identify plane types during WWII without visual observation of the flight. Radar equipment of the time could not distinguish between a B29 and a Me109.
The Luftwaffe could be fairly certain that those hundreds of signatures coming from the direction of England at high altitude weren't Me109s though.
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Of course they werent 109s and also radar had changed by the end of the war. Not only could they fix positions more accurately but the 50cm units of the FuMG 39 Wuerzburg D models could fix altitude but they still could not identify aircraft types.
In the arena you should just use a little of the same type of common sense and you will find the bombers.
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Wikipedia says Chain Home could detect range, direction, and altitude. Also a good operator could estimate size of the formation from the shape of the return signal.
There ya go.
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The Luftwaffe could be fairly certain that those hundreds of signatures coming from the direction of England at high altitude weren't Me109s though.
Current military radar can't even classify the type aircraft. There's still some mystery left, even with todays technology.
The Chain Home system used by the British relied heavily on visual spotters to confirm the position and type of aircraft in each mass return. Until the spotters V-ID'd the aircraft, only then did the RAF know if they were facing massed bombers, massed fighters, or a combination of both.
The Germans may have seen multiple blobs, but they couldn't tell you which blob was a group of fighters and which blob was a group of bombers from the radar return. They had to use other techniques to categorize what they thought the returns were. They studied the history of the return, and if it conformed to the profile that matched the bomber stream, they categorized it as a bomber stream, but even this was an imprecise means with which to identify returns.
Case in point: In Spring 1945, a few P-51 groups launched a massive formation of fighters that bunched up into a tight formation, and flew at typical bomber altitudes and speeds. The Germans launched a massive group of fighters to intercept what they thought were unescorted bombers. (I don't remember the specifics of the units, but IIRC, this involved Yeager's group so you could cross reference this with that, if you so desire).
As several have mentioned here, watching the clipboard map will give you an indication of the bombers approaching, if you look for the tell-tell signs, typical profiles, etc. Its not perfect, but it's a relative match for the radar capabilities of the opposing sides during WWII.
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Case in point: In Spring 1945, a few P-51 groups launched a massive formation of fighters that bunched up into a tight formation, and flew at typical bomber altitudes and speeds. The Germans launched a massive group of fighters to intercept what they thought were unescorted bombers. (I don't remember the specifics of the units, but IIRC, this involved Yeager's group so you could cross reference this with that, if you so desire).
On D-Day 617 squadron under Leonard Cheshire flew a very careful flight plan at a set altitude dropping 'window' (chaff) from their aircraft, and managed to simulate a 14 mile wide convoy of ships heading towards France, fooling German radars into thinking an invasion convoy was heading towards that area and keeping troops stationed there while the invasion was taking place.
Another remarkable operation undertaken by the "Dam Busters" played an important part in the successful landings in Normandy on D-Day, 6th June 1944. Known as Operation Taxable it was the simulation of a large "ghost" convoy of ships crossing the narrowest part of the English Channel. Eighteen small naval vessels steamed towards France at seven knots, and to make their radar response correspond to that created by a large convoy, the Lancasters of No. 617 flew overhead in a continuous wide orbit, gradually nearing the French coast. Every four seconds throughout the three-and-a-half hours of the operation, bundles of Window (small metal strips which produced a false echo on the enemy radar screens) were thrown out of the aircraft. Meticulous timing was necessary, as an error of only four seconds would have been sufficient to make the "convoy" look suspect. As the last Lancaster turned for home its crew had the satisfaction of seeing the German guns open radar-predicted fire on the non-existent convoy. Meanwhile the real invasion force was nearing the coast many miles away.
From the RAF's web site.
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All these discussions about how radar was during the war is the reason I stated that there should just be a formation of dots (3) marking the formation. I never said that they could tell type by radar. I just was trying to state that a formation of aircraft would look different than a single.
With the additional dots implemented you would not be able to tell the difference between a group of guys that can hold a formation and a formation of bombers.
Let's face another reality here. Historical accuracies having nothing to do with this subject since (to the best of my knowledge which is not much) most aircraft that would be flying toward a common goal would be doing so in formation and not a bunch lone flyers. In reality if we were all worried about historical accuracies there would be no difference in radar sigs between a group of bombers and a group of fighters. In reality we would not have continuous furballs going on and there would be no one ticked off because their furball was ruined.
On another note, I think after Hitech's post there is most likely going to be no change to the current system. It also seems that those that want these changes the most fly bombers rarely if ever and no nothing of the likelyhood of a successful bomber sortie.
IMHO
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There ya go.
Except Wikipedia is wrong in this case.
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Except Wikipedia is wrong in this case.
See Furball's post above.
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ive killed a b17 with a spit mkI before! :rock
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ive killed a b17 with a spit mkI before! :rock
Hush Bat, you don't count. You killed Sputnik with the rear gun of a Ju-87 once.
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See Furball's post above.
I did see them Steve and I know chain home radar could not fix a planes altitude. The brief reference in the articles to 'heightfinding' was unspecific because in practice the protecting fighters discovered the equipment to be imprecise at best with estimates off as much as eight-thousand feet. Like I said the early radars could not 'fix' altitude and there were quite a few times intercepting fighters were vectored to empty skies or intercept points with the intruders very high above them and impossible to catch.
During the war radar systems came along that could fix altitude but that is beside the point because at no time during the war and indeed even up until now radar systems cannot identify aircraft types without some other detection system helping. Transponders are used today to aid in aircraft identification and our most advanced fighter systems still depend on AWACS (airborne warning and control) for additional intelligence (identification).
The articles furball cited are a little biased even though they dont present untruths exactly. Specifically the British had some good fortunes with 'chaff' however the Germans later defeated the system 'window' in their late war radar designs that did see completely through chaff (Siemens & Halske: Jagdschloz FuMG 404) and determined altitude as well.
This all makes for interesting discussion yet nothing is likely to change online.
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I did see them Steve and I know chain home radar could not fix a planes altitude. The brief reference in the articles to 'heightfinding' was unspecific because in practice the protecting fighters discovered the equipment to be imprecise at best with estimates off as much as eight-thousand feet.
Right now our AH radar tells us that the enemy is somewhere between 500 and 50,000 feet.
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Right now our AH radar tells us that the enemy is somewhere between 500 and 50,000 feet.
Right now your radar also fixes the exact position (north/south-east/west) and you have a gods eye view from the cockpit. Thats more then you should need since in practice the best a pilot could hope for in WWII was something like a sector darbar would give you and thats if and only if he had radio communication with a controller.
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I did see them Steve and I know chain home radar could not fix a planes altitude.
I never said anything about alt. I said radar can tell the difference between a lone fighter and 3 bombers. You disagreed, and I was shown to be correct. I never said a word about alt.
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I dont think so Steve.
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I don't remember Steve saying anything about altitude either.
Challenge do you have any sources to support your theories about the inaccuracies of the CH and CHL systems?
So far the only linked/quoted sources refute your claims.
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From the modern RAFs website:
The RDF information was crude by modern standards, but was more than sufficient to give bearing and range information on an incoming raid. The system consisted of two dials and a cathode ray tube that gave a screen presentation of the raids range. The two dials supplied time and bearing information. The height of the raid could only be accurately provided once the raid came within visual sighting range of the Observer Corps posts. With experience, RDF Operators could judge the size of the raid by the size and shape of the blip on the screen.
Back when I was more inclined to work hard for a living I studied things like radio signal ranging and high-energy radio interferometry (among other things) and I also remember quite a few conversations with a family member that was a military flier about how in movies the radar operator would say 'they are coming in at 27000 feet' to which he would say 'he cant know that.'
Note they use 'judge' which made quite a few problems over time. Atmospheric conditions could easily make one airplane look like a swarm.
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Chalenge, do you know about the 'battle' the RAF had during the 'phoney war'? I can't for the life of me remember what the name they gave it was to look it up.
Basically, in the early days of the CH radar, it would detect aircraft along beams away from the radar masts. Unbeknownst to the radar operators, the radar would show a target along a straight line looking towards the channel, or back into Britain.
IIRC it went like this: One morning a squadron of Spitfires were upping for a patrol, this was detected on the radar screens due to the above flaw, and seen as an incoming German raid. So more aircraft were scrambled. The radar operators and control rooms thought the Germans were forming for a huge raid, so more RAF aircraft were scrambled. This process repeated itself until nearly every available fighter the RAF had were up in the sky looking for a huge 'German' formation, when really the only aircraft in the sky were themselves!
The flaw was immediately fixed in time for the real battle. I have it in a book somewhere, i will try and find it later. :)
Also, experienced AI radar operators of the intruder squadrons could tell a German nightfighter from the bombers in the bomber streams by looking at the 'blip'. Mossies or Beaufighters would accompany the bomber stream and try to intercept the fighters as they went in for the attack.
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Also, experienced AI radar operators of the intruder squadrons could tell a German nightfighter from the bombers in the bomber streams by looking at the 'blip'. Mossies or Beaufighters would accompany the bomber stream and try to intercept the fighters as they went in for the attack.
Are you sure about the terminology here Furball? Being able to ascertain the type of aircraft from the "blip" itself is different from being able to ascertain the type of aircraft from watching what the "blip" does over time, and identifying the "blip" as something that conforms to the profile of a night fighter.
I've watched hours of primary radar returns behind some of the best gear the U.S. Navy has during combat operations, and I'll tell you that the whole process of classifying radar returns is still daunting and susceptible to errors. Especially if the track isn't giving you hints from secondary sources.
Karnak has a link to some good WWII radar information we used to discuss how "stealthy" the Mosquito wasn't. Is that the same link as you posted Furball?
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Chalenge, do you know about the 'battle' the RAF had during the 'phoney war'? I can't for the life of me remember what the name they gave it was to look it up.
Basically, in the early days of the CH radar, it would detect aircraft along beams away from the radar masts. Unbeknownst to the radar operators, the radar would show a target along a straight line looking towards the channel, or back into Britain.
IIRC it went like this: One morning a squadron of Spitfires were upping for a patrol, this was detected on the radar screens due to the above flaw, and seen as an incoming German raid. So more aircraft were scrambled. The radar operators and control rooms thought the Germans were forming for a huge raid, so more RAF aircraft were scrambled. This process repeated itself until nearly every available fighter the RAF had were up in the sky looking for a huge 'German' formation, when really the only aircraft in the sky were themselves!
The flaw was immediately fixed in time for the real battle. I have it in a book somewhere, i will try and find it later. :)
Also, experienced AI radar operators of the intruder squadrons could tell a German nightfighter from the bombers in the bomber streams by looking at the 'blip'. Mossies or Beaufighters would accompany the bomber stream and try to intercept the fighters as they went in for the attack.
I haven't been following this thread, but I have read an account of this. The radar was on the shoreline aimed across the channel, but the radar worked in 2 directions (front and back) so it would report what was "behind" it as "in front" of it, so the more squadrons that were scrambled "behind" it and were heading to the giant raid, started showing up "in front" of it as part of the raid.
After the planes ran low on fuel and started landing the signal diminished until it was nothing. They discovered the problem and put the now-everpresent screens behind the radar, so that it only reads the signal in one direction ("in front") now. I think there were a couple of friendly fire incidents during this "raid" as well.
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Are you sure about the terminology here Furball? Being able to ascertain the type of aircraft from the "blip" itself is different from being able to ascertain the type of aircraft from watching what the "blip" does over time, and identifying the "blip" as something that conforms to the profile of a night fighter.
I've watched hours of primary radar returns behind some of the best gear the U.S. Navy has during combat operations, and I'll tell you that the whole process of classifying radar returns is still daunting and susceptible to errors. Especially if the track isn't giving you hints from secondary sources.
Karnak has a link to some good WWII radar information we used to discuss how "stealthy" the Mosquito wasn't. Is that the same link as you posted Furball?
I was reading a first hand account from a pilot of a Beaufighter who was on an intruder op amongst the bomber stream. The terminology may well have been off as he was not the one using the AI radar. They were using it in conjunction with a device which (IIRC) is called 'Serrate' which detected the radar of the German night fighters. The AI operator was calling out the headings and using both systems to determine the contact - the AI op was calling out the target headings using 'Serrate' then confirming that the target 'blip' matched with a night fighter. But again, it could be a bit misleading as it was coming from the pilot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrate_radar_detector
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Chalenge, do you know about the 'battle' the RAF had during the 'phoney war'? I can't for the life of me remember what the name they gave it was to look it up.
No but I know there was more then one incident during the 'twilight war' though. Sixty years after the BOB regular citzens began to have their stories told in the newspapers and online and one of them told of being a small boy and living near swingate (a CH site) and watching a flight of Hurricanes attack a group of Hampdens and actually shoot one down (which I had read actually did happen I just didnt know there were eye witnesses). I remember his story very well because he later moved further inland (the beaches were strictly off limits by then because of concerns of commandos coming ashore) and told of watching dogfights and then picking up the shell casings from the field afterwards AND having a 109 strafe down his neighborhood lane and seeing the pilots face just before jumping in the ditch for cover. His story was told in such a way similar to the bragging of Spitfire pilots you read about as if he was proud of having been attacked! At age seventy something he still had the shell casings from both occasions.
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Friendly fire happened a fair bit, i can understand the mistake of shooting down Hampdens though, they look very similar to Do-17Z's.
The Battle of Barking Creek is another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Barking_Creek
There are so many stories like that, you will probably be interested in this: -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/categories/