Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on November 08, 2008, 01:56:42 PM
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here in AH I'm very surprised to realize that the game overall is markedly worse then it was when it started. That isn't an "I'm quitting" or "back in the good old days" comment. It also doesn't mean that I have any (let alone all) the answers. I know that everything the powers that be do is with the intent to make the game "better", that doesn't mean it is. The simple reality is that the game was never better then the original beta is every aspect that counted. The player base was elite, the flight model complex subtle and unforgiving and game play wasn't hampered with all the add on garbage.
I realize that "back to the future" is impossible but I wonder if small map fighter (and tank) {no ords} only arena is possible. No buffs, no base capture no "score" system. Just a place for the guys who want to actually fight without anything to attract the lesser elements (and yes I'm an elitist snob).
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you elitist scumbag :furious
Think its called the DA :D
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The player base was elite, the flight model complex subtle and unforgiving and game play wasn't hampered with all the add on garbage.
You said it all right there. Back in beta almost every flight was a learning experience, going up against pilots who actually studied ACM. Now you have to look for good fights.
I think Aces High was once just an air combat simulator that only rewarded good ACM and skill. Now it has become a WW2 game that attracts all kinds of gamers and people who could care less about real ACM. The original probably had a very limited appeal to most online gamers.
My best memories are getting spanked over and over again by citabria and learning something on every flight. I would even go as far to say that the really good ACM 1v1 fights I've had over the years has helped my real life flying skills. Nowadays its just a lot more work to find that good fight.
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I realize that "back to the future" is impossible but I wonder if small map fighter (and tank) {no ords} only arena is possible. No buffs, no base capture no "score" system. Just a place for the guys who want to actually fight without anything to attract the lesser elements (and yes I'm an elitist snob).
Good luck with that whatever the idea. Just look at todays DA for a clue.
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You said it all right there. Back in beta almost every flight was a learning experience, going up against pilots who actually studied ACM. Now you have to look for good fights.
I think Aces High was once just an air combat simulator that only rewarded good ACM and skill. Now it has become a WW2 game that attracts all kinds of gamers and people who could care less about real ACM. The original probably had a very limited appeal to most online gamers.
My best memories are getting spanked over and over again by citabria and learning something on every flight. I would even go as far to say that the really good ACM 1v1 fights I've had over the years has helped my real life flying skills. Nowadays its just a lot more work to find that good fight.
MY EXPERIENCE HAS been, that when you're looking for decent/good fights.......find those guys in the p38 that fly down low. look for the guy in the p40, or the spit1 or hurri1. sometimes, even the zekes, and f6f's.
most i've run into in these planes fight like there;s no tomorrow.
i'm still learning, and have only been here for about 3 years now, and even in that short time, i see things going downhill..........but i try to not let it affect me.......
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I find that if you bait them, spit pilots will usually give you a good fight. You just gotta avoid the HO's.
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I think getting rid of large maps would be a step in the right direction. If large maps kept, possibly making some form of chain order in which bases can be taking might be something as well. I think what AH needs now more than ever is a stronger mechanism that encourages people to fight, rather than to look for undefended empty fields to pork.
I think if AH were to move towards more of a war based them, then fights should be over towns or cities, which are apart from airfields. This might set a better stage for bombers, having a larger targets to destroy, and might help to reduce some of the vulch fests. Of course if it were to move more towards a war game, I would think there would also have to be some form of attrition or supply line features.
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I think getting rid of large maps would be a step in the right direction. If large maps kept, possibly making some form of chain order in which bases can be taking might be something as well.
You don't remember that this approach was tried and failed?
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I still think that making start targets worth while is the key to promoting good fights. Make things so important that they are worth defending, and fighters will come.
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Remember 18 months ago when all you saw were threads wanting the large maps back like the old days?
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The DA would be closer to this if the perk system was implemented (even multiplied to where the better planes are even harder to get) and there were no externals. As it is now, it is a place to give the less skilled players something to do that can't hang in the MA or have too short of an attention span. I am not sayng that good sticks don't make appearances in the DA and some are there quite a bit it seems, but for the most part it is a draw to keep the weaker players happy. It is certainly not what snaphook is describing. Of course there will always be the picking and the whining in any open room, even if it only had P40B's. The only way to fix that (that I can see) is to have a paid H2H option that have hosts who stay logged in and actively watch what is happening. Then rules can be established and griefers can be booted. When that happens, I think many older players and better sticks will have a place to go for refuge.
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A couple of comments....
1) The DA isn't a comparable environment at all....
2) You can't dictate game play artificially
I'm not against the "digital dirt" win the war approach and dont want to deprive those who are so inclined. I simply would like an alternative that more closely matches the game I grew up in. I believe that there is a large minority that feel the same way. I'd like to see an arena focused on combat with no "winnable" map, no base capture and no "score". where the ack is tuned to instant death (but carrier puffy ack is tuned to cotton candy). I think it would draw 200-300 a night during peak time...
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The problem is with the players, and I can't really see a way to set it up to change the way players play. No I'm not saying "play my way", but the player mentality has gone more towards the "Quake" type. Even back in the "old days" the buffs and GV fights where fun. Today too many bomb and bail, GV is strictly a spawn camp deal now with no real battles.....Mindano had that one base in the middle thats ALWAYS had a good battle going on. Also when there was a big GV battle, no buffs came in to shut it down, or a furball, buffs didn't kill FHs to kill that either.
Todays player mentality of running in screaming LEROY JENKINS !!!! is shows no style, nothing towards a battle, just going blasting until you need to reup and do it again. The quality of the fights are gone due to people just spraying and praying till dead and repeat.
How to fix it, I have no idea, but I sure do miss those battles, in the air and on the ground.
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I can't say much about 9 years ago and played very little airwarrior for about two months, been in AH for 3 years i think! from what I remember about air warrior it seemed the same as this! The old timers seem to reminice about some GRAND chivalrous time in the digital skies, that in reality wasn't true then as it is not now!! The proof is in the DA and AvA pudding as if it was straight fighting with no score or "name in lights" desire that some wanted, they could get it in either of these arenas!! It's very easy to ask a good pilot to DA you and most likely, they will oblige! :aok
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I wonder if winning sectors through number of team kills per, rather than through base taking, would make a diff. Has anything like that been tried?
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It's very easy to ask a good pilot to DA you and most likely, they will oblige! :aok
Not the same. DA was best when FB lake had 10-15 players in it and when you saw a 1v1 fight you flew past it to a single dot for your own 1v1 instead of zooming down to pick a stall fighter. I agree paid H2H would be the way to go. You would soon learn which hosted arena you wanted to fly and which ones you wanted to stay out of.
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Not to jump on anyone toes, but maybe you should look inwardly some.
You will flame away when you finish reading I am sure. After all, I have only been here 10 months. And I already know about the training area. But, why not help the new player evolve into what you are looking for. All I see on 200 is some ego stroker that taunts people into a fight. Why not reverse that and ask that person if they would like some help in ACM? None here has bothered to ask if I wanted any help. Maybe just to wing with a better pilot once in a while, or go into the DA for a little 1v1. Done all the reading online like you are supposed to and still have issues. I know that you can't gain those skills overnight and don't expect to. But a little help every now and then from some of the best would be nice to see and may just increase the skill level of everyone and make the new guys a little less intimidated when it comes to a fight. Don't look for a fix to something that you guys after all can have an affect on. For one, I cannot sit and furball all day long. After a short while, I get tired of dying and re-upping, which may be an aspect that the newer players adn I find more appealing. After all, get a few together and we can all accomplish something, while we struggle away with others.
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avionix...
I have and "we" do...
I was part of the original traing cadre here and still help anyone who asks. i'm part of one of the more respected squads here in the game in terms of both overall skill and more importantly "good" game play. I am far from an "uber" stick, most of die more often then not. I originally cut my teeth in Air Warrior with guys like rocketman and -HR- among others, who did make an effort to educate the babyseals like me.
IMO the best way and place to learn good ACM is in a fight oriented environment. I'm simply voicing an opinion that a true "fight" oriented arena would draw good numbers...
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I think he's saying he doesn't wanna have to deal with all that, nor ALWAYS be around folks in that stage of development
<edit...or not :noid>
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Not to jump on anyone toes, but maybe you should look inwardly some.
You will flame away when you finish reading I am sure. After all, I have only been here 10 months. And I already know about the training area. But, why not help the new player evolve into what you are looking for. All I see on 200 is some ego stroker that taunts people into a fight. Why not reverse that and ask that person if they would like some help in ACM? None here has bothered to ask if I wanted any help. Maybe just to wing with a better pilot once in a while, or go into the DA for a little 1v1. Done all the reading online like you are supposed to and still have issues. I know that you can't gain those skills overnight and don't expect to. But a little help every now and then from some of the best would be nice to see and may just increase the skill level of everyone and make the new guys a little less intimidated when it comes to a fight. Don't look for a fix to something that you guys after all can have an affect on. For one, I cannot sit and furball all day long. After a short while, I get tired of dying and re-upping, which may be an aspect that the newer players adn I find more appealing. After all, get a few together and we can all accomplish something, while we struggle away with others.
Most of the "Godlike Sticks" are more then willing to take a rookie into the DA/TA and help them improve their game. I might add that I'm starting a project to help teach players Advanced ACM in .avi and .ahf form.
Humble does bring up a valid point. Splitting the late war main did nothing to improve game play, in fact it's gone downhill ever since, at least we had a "War" to win amongst other things.
I hope this thread sparks some AH2 revolution.
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I still think that making start targets worth while is the key to promoting good fights. Make things so important that they are worth defending, and fighters will come.
exactly!!
that's why i follow the guys trying to take bases.......they always start a fight.
often, i'll just go start a base flashing. guaranteed someone'll come up.
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Not to jump on anyone toes, but maybe you should look inwardly some.
You will flame away when you finish reading I am sure. After all, I have only been here 10 months. And I already know about the training area. But, why not help the new player evolve into what you are looking for. All I see on 200 is some ego stroker that taunts people into a fight. Why not reverse that and ask that person if they would like some help in ACM? None here has bothered to ask if I wanted any help. Maybe just to wing with a better pilot once in a while, or go into the DA for a little 1v1. Done all the reading online like you are supposed to and still have issues. I know that you can't gain those skills overnight and don't expect to. But a little help every now and then from some of the best would be nice to see and may just increase the skill level of everyone and make the new guys a little less intimidated when it comes to a fight. Don't look for a fix to something that you guys after all can have an affect on. For one, I cannot sit and furball all day long. After a short while, I get tired of dying and re-upping, which may be an aspect that the newer players adn I find more appealing. After all, get a few together and we can all accomplish something, while we struggle away with others.
i've had fights with akak, shuffler, soulss, and a few others. they ALL, without exception not only saluted me, but when they knew i was comming back, they tried to tell me what i did wrong, and what i should've done. not a single one of them "stroked their egos" on my kill. and believe me, they kilt me quite a bit :rofl
the unfortunate thing, is that guys like them are the minority.
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yes u would call that the DA IMO :O Ever stop to think that ur just bored of the game :O Nine years is a long time you will never get the first feeling of aww wow this is cool after the first 2 years :rofl Should this arena of urs have a 3k alt cap also? I think the only way this game would get better is to actually incorporate some actual strategy... Hangers should go down for longer than 15 minutes would be a start..This is the biggest virtual cluster "F" known to online gaming. One mass dingle berry raid :rolleyes: I'm not complaining about how the game currently is ,but there are millions of ways to improve it. The only reason why I play this game anymore is ww2 online has no vox ,and I can't type worth a crud. They really have the right idea when it comes to a certain type of a real war combat type of experience with the whole strategy part intact...Funny how someone can build a classic cherry corvette and forget the engine :furious ridicules :mad:
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In the beginning....most of us were dedicated flightsim junkies who had been doing this for many years.
We generally read, modeled, collected prints, etc. about WWII and the aircraft that participated in the air war from 39 to 45.
IMHO in these past few years we are getting "gamers" instead of the simmer.
They've little or no passion for the aircraft or the tactics used in WWII as well as the History of the War, The aircraft, the Squadrons
and Pilots that battled in the skies over Europe and in the Pacific.
We've got the point and clickers.
I think somehow we've got to educate our new users on the History of the Air War and the Squadrons and Pilots who flew the planes.
How we do that.....is up for debate. Until they have the passion that we have, things will not change.
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In the beginning....most of us were dedicated flightsim junkies who had been doing this for many years.
We generally read, modeled, collected prints, etc. about WWII and the aircraft that participated in the air war from 39 to 45.
IMHO in these past few years we are getting "gamers" instead of the simmer.
They've little or no passion for the aircraft or the tactics used in WWII as well as the History of the War, The aircraft, the Squadrons
and Pilots that battled in the skies over Europe and in the Pacific.
We've got the point and clickers.
I think somehow we've got to educate our new users on the History of the Air War and the Squadrons and Pilots who flew the planes.
How we do that.....is up for debate. Until they have the passion that we have, things will not change.
I agree, however I don't think we need to educate the new users. The problem is the way the game has changed over the years it has just naturally attacted these gamers. If we went back to beta 75% of the current players would probably no longer play, because there were no rewards for anything but good ACM
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here in AH I'm very surprised to realize that the game overall is markedly worse then it was when it started. That isn't an "I'm quitting" or "back in the good old days" comment. It also doesn't mean that I have any (let alone all) the answers. I know that everything the powers that be do is with the intent to make the game "better", that doesn't mean it is. The simple reality is that the game was never better then the original beta is every aspect that counted. The player base was elite, the flight model complex subtle and unforgiving and game play wasn't hampered with all the add on garbage.
I realize that "back to the future" is impossible but I wonder if small map fighter (and tank) {no ords} only arena is possible. No buffs, no base capture no "score" system. Just a place for the guys who want to actually fight without anything to attract the lesser elements (and yes I'm an elitist snob).
Agree, when i first started flying 4 years ago, the game was WAY more fun, i dont have a huge drive to paly anymore
-BigBOBCH
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In the beginning....most of us were dedicated flightsim junkies who had been doing this for many years.
We generally read, modeled, collected prints, etc. about WWII and the aircraft that participated in the air war from 39 to 45.
one of my projects fallen on the wayside was a 1/48 and 1/72 collection of AH planes...
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You don't remember that this approach was tried and failed?
I seem to remember vaguely, but wasn't sure why it failed, or if it was just seeing how something would work. I think the biggest issue with splitting the arenas, is that half the people were dumped from an arena, yet maps built to hold a larger capacity stayed. Dunno, but I really don't see players changing the way they do anything. Gameplay mechanics determine how players play the game. I'm not against strat, but I don't think players will avoid milk running bases, running from fights, and all the other non combat related items. AH is somewhat unique in that it is a combat game that easily allows non-combat, or combat in which one force as a completely overwhelming unbalanced attack.
Alot of vets go out of their way to help people who need it. Though there are quite a few 200 guys who aren't as helpfull. I'm not sure there are enough vets to help everyone coming in, and I would be willing to bet that many, giving the option of training, or milking, some would just milk. Milking bases isn't a one way street either, there should be people defending.
AH2 is still very close to AH1 in terms of how the game is played. There are many more players now, however, which I think changes the dynamics a bit. It's just my opinion that having smaller maps with the split arenas would lead to larger scale battles and more reason to defend bases. It might require countries to split there forces in a more equal fashion. Smaller maps would lead to more wins as well, which I think would be something more welcoming for the win the war types....then again, I might be wrong. Just one side note, having 300 in 1 arena would be similar to several years ago when just 1 ma and small maps. aside from pizza.
Just trying to think of ways to get people to hang around and fight more, and reason to do so. When fights are more concentrated, it gives some of the guys who've taken the time to learn their ACM to play a larger factor. One could go so far as saying "get rid of rank" or "name in lights." how many people you think head for home as soon as kill #2? I think if nothing changes at all, we will continue to head down whatever path we are on. It's HT's path, and he's a better judge of the status of AH, not up for debate, but just throwing in my .02
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Maybe Drop EW or MW or combine them. Start a new Arena, Make it harder to capture a base, Put in a Large city or two. Maybe hide some Factories in there. Sounds like a good Idea. I'm sure you can't make a perfect arena for all but hey why not. Not many people in EW or MW anyway.
Crims
:aok
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1st,
The DA is in no way an alternative for an arena, the fact that so many people bring it up is an indication of how big the "problem" is and how few people have an understanding of the game as it was.
2nd,
I'm in no way bored with the game, just game play. I had a hoot flying a scout in rangoon and a blast in FSO last night. I'm far from a dominant pilot and learn something new all the time. Over the years I've been listed in various "best in" threads in the F4U, Ki-61, La-5 and now the A-20. I genuinely appreciate all the time and effort the Pyro, Skuzzy, HT and company put into the product and I realize they cant manage game play. I am just asking for consideration for an arena that allows for a greater focus on true air and ground combat without the trappings of "the war" and eliminates porking as a means of game play.
As for WW2OL, just mentioning it highlights the problem. This game originally was ACES high...at its heart its a wonderful simulation of fighter on fighter combat. This has been buried in more and more "stuff". For the thousands who want this great, but for the hundreds that dont how about an option.
When I started "for real" (I could never really afford AW on genie at the time) we had 5 RR arena's and just 1 FR arena...yet everyone knew that thats where the big boys hung out. After 18 months of RR#2 I ventured to the rare air and never looked back. When +moss told me about the beta for a game called AH I signed up the day I got home. Ran into Fariz my 1st dozen hops and got my rear spanked every time. Immediately went on AW and told my squad I found some new "rare air" and never looked back.
All I want is some rare air back....
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Maybe Drop EW or MW or combine them. Start a new Arena, Make it harder to capture a base, Put in a Large city or two. Maybe hide some Factories in there. Sounds like a good Idea. I'm sure you can't make a perfect arena for all but hey why not. Not many people in EW or MW anyway.
Crims
:aok
MW's population has been on the rise.......
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I havent been around for 9 years, I started in April of 07, and I thought it was an excellent game then, just as I do now. To me it is still a very challenging and rewarding battle. I dont agree with people who say they see the game going down hill. To me it has only become better.
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DA has definetly changed. I never remember seeing so many people rtb'ing with kills to collect a chorus of wtg's. I just remember everyone fought until the died or ran out of fuel, or auger when out of ammo to get back in fight. To me this is a indication that the attitude of the players has changed.
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DA has definetly changed. I never remember seeing so many people rtb'ing with kills to collect a chorus of wtg's. I just remember everyone fought until the died or ran out of fuel, or auger when out of ammo to get back in fight. To me this is a indication that the attitude of the players has changed.
I do that in a 1 on 1.. but the main furball i have RTB'd a few times :confused:
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MW's population has been on the rise.......
30 or 40 people is on the RISE :rofl :lol :rolleyes: :D
Crims
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the unfortunate thing, is that guys like them are the minority.
Have not had a chance to go up against any of them that I recall. I was just pointing out the fact that many of us "noobs" find it difficult to find GOOD training.
All I was saying is that it would be nice to see some of the better sticks offer some help form time to time. After all you are the "vets" here. All through my time of flying in RL, I have tried to help the new pilots out whenever the chance presented itself. Many times, it was not asked for, but it was always appreciated. I was jsut saying, that it would be nice to see more of it here.
<S>
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30 or 40 people is on the RISE :rofl :lol :rolleyes: :D
Crims
hey!!
there was 60 or so in there last night, and i think the same the night before............
:noid
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Blame it on the "HALO" and "COUNTER-STRIKE" players,thats the only way they play.
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hey!!
there was 60 or so in there last night, and i think the same the night before............
:noid
Was late war full then :confused: :lol
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someone mentioned large maps as a problem, and I agree, when there are more bases than players, just doesn't seem right.. (large maps - compello/ozkansas/tagma)
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someone mentioned large maps as a problem, and I agree, when there are more bases than players, just doesn't seem right.. (large maps - compello/ozkansas/tagma)
Id rather a large map in Lw than Mw.. as you said.. big map + MW = utter sheet :lol
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1st,
The DA is in no way an alternative for an arena, the fact that so many people bring it up is an indication of how big the "problem" is and how few people have an understanding of the game as it was.
2nd,
I'm in no way bored with the game, just game play. I had a hoot flying a scout in rangoon and a blast in FSO last night. I'm far from a dominant pilot and learn something new all the time. Over the years I've been listed in various "best in" threads in the F4U, Ki-61, La-5 and now the A-20. I genuinely appreciate all the time and effort the Pyro, Skuzzy, HT and company put into the product and I realize they cant manage game play. I am just asking for consideration for an arena that allows for a greater focus on true air and ground combat without the trappings of "the war" and eliminates porking as a means of game play.
As for WW2OL, just mentioning it highlights the problem. This game originally was ACES high...at its heart its a wonderful simulation of fighter on fighter combat. This has been buried in more and more "stuff". For the thousands who want this great, but for the hundreds that dont how about an option.
When I started "for real" (I could never really afford AW on genie at the time) we had 5 RR arena's and just 1 FR arena...yet everyone knew that thats where the big boys hung out. After 18 months of RR#2 I ventured to the rare air and never looked back. When +moss told me about the beta for a game called AH I signed up the day I got home. Ran into Fariz my 1st dozen hops and got my rear spanked every time. Immediately went on AW and told my squad I found some new "rare air" and never looked back.
All I want is some rare air back.... Ok so u want an arena just for furballing? I'm a little confused here..Sounds like what u want is an arena dedicated to just gvs and air to air with no ord? Do I understand what u are talking about? I am sorry but what do u want as an arena? Sounds like u want a big furball..I nver played AW before so maybe thats were Im loosing you..I realize in a way what u want..Shall we name it Da 2?
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What he, and I too, want is not so simple as a furball.
It's an environmental attitude change...
No hording, ganging, porking, picking. Ho'ing, ramming, cheap shots, and even cheaper fights.
You find all of that in the DA just as much as the MA.
Do away with score and perks. Disable perked planes. Fly them in events...
Not every obscure little field needs to be capturable. Just ones that center around a common area to promote more fights. Otherwise people just hide in their little corners to earn their scores and perks.
Disable the kills landed messages. That's pointless. Look what it does in the DA.
Every arena fight used to be like a duel or match.
ACM was our kung fu and the merge started our honorable battle.
If you were beat, you study, and go back for more.
If someone was in a fight. You waited your turn.
You didn't dogpile on a guy. You weren't dog piled on in return.
If someone was rtb, you let them.
Now it's like Mexico City. Gangs of 8year olds trying to stab you in the back for a peso (point). They're not interested in anything but that peso and don't care how they get it.
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The future may bring many changes to AH, but I'm almost willing to bet most proposals in this thread are not amongst them. :)
For example disabling score: Some players will outright leave...other ones may stay but not react the way some tend to believe. When RTB'ing and getting points doesn't matter anyway, I doubt you will see much more "honorable" gameplay behaviour - but a lot more suicide porkers, Ho'ing, Lancstukas, in other words: More AirQuake ;)
Ah yes - you can then make all bases uncapturable, remove bombers from game and so on, until you cater only to a small number hardcore players. Sounds like a good business plan. :D
But seriously: It's exactly the broad spectrum of gameplay that's possible for everyone in AH that's part of the success story.
I'm one of those growing up with books and 1/72 models of fighter planes and I came here years ago. But if AH just had been a "pure" fighter sim, I doubt I still would be playing, at least I would have taken more and longer breaks from this game. Having so many aspects & possibilities is keeping me. Sometimes I'm more GV'ing, sometimes I'm more into the basegrab, in some tours I try to master a specific ride, then it's buff hunt, then the score game for a tour or even furballing...
Still, I feel much less excitement playing AH then 3 years ago (or even 8 years during my first 2weeks) - but a huge part doesn't come from gameplay changes but from "having seen it all". And the expectations are rising, what I would have considered a good fight years ago it would hardly be noteworthy today to me ;)
Only a very small number of people would be dedicated enough not to get bored by a pure "furball" sim over the years. If AH would still be like in the glorious BETA times (with better graphics, of course), you would still see a lot of "It ain't the same game today, it sucks" posts on this BBS, even if nothing had changed at all ;)
What I'm not saying is that the air sim player base hasn't changed over the last 10, 15 years. That's a natural thing, times are changing, players are changing, games are changing...and the older we get, the more annoying the squeakers will be ;)
On a related note (but not directed to anyone specific in this thread), I frequently spot a lot of hypocrisy or at least ignorance about this topic on CH 200. Players that happily camped GV spawns with me when we were both new to this game, do now lament without end about "lame camping n00bs" and how gameplay has degraded... go figure
Just my 2c of course :)
(And now back into the breach..having much fun tonight while fighting the horde)
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you cater only to a small number hardcore players. Sounds like a good business plan. :D
I alt-tabed while flying so I didn't read your whole post but:
1) We're talking about a small area or arena.
2) Those hardcore players have been here for years.
Chances are they'd continue to be if they felt things weren't going down the crapper.
They are the ones who go to cons. Who train newbies. Run the scenarios and events.
That's stable income and easy maintenance.
Scot12b just quit a few hours ago...
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I alt-tabed while flying so I didn't read your whole post but:
1) We're talking about a small area or arena.
I don't think the addition such a "no capture, po perks, no score" arena would hurt anyone...but I doubt it would be that succesfull. For sure it wouldn't see 200-300 players each evening.
See AvA - A very dedicated staff trying to do his best to provide somethign different, more fight than battle, more skills than capture, more planeset with a a "flavour" than P51D Spit16 Nik & co. And the numbers?
See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.
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I don't think the addition such a "no capture, po perks, no score" arena would hurt anyone...but I doubt it would be that succesfull. For sure it wouldn't see 200-300 players each evening.
See AvA - A very dedicated staff trying to do his best to provide somethign different, more fight than battle, more skills than capture, more planeset with a a "flavour" than P51D Spit16 Nik & co. And the numbers?
See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.
I like the small numbers in the AvA. Whatever the majority touches, it ruins.
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See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.
As much fun as I think it sounds to have a different type of arena, I think it might still be difficult at times to get those "honorable" fights. One might consider somehow moderating an arena, but then again, that requires alot of time spent by people to monitor the situation. Even with that, there will be many grey area's regarding acceptable play. I'm sure there would be more than a few that would be looking for just such an arena to grief. Who knows for sure though, if it works out would be a fun place to hang.
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We have an arena for Dueling. We have an arena for Axis vs Allies. We have an arena for Special Events. We have two arenas for particular periods of the war. We have two arenas with no rules for the majority. Why is anyone opposed to the idea of an additional arena specifically for air to air combat, or one for tanks? It is not up to you folks to decide, and no one's asking anyone to endorse the idea, change their outlook, or even go there. Why so many knotted panties?
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I still think that making start targets worth while is the key to promoting good fights. Make things so important that they are worth defending, and fighters will come.
you mean "strat" targets.
And I agree thats part of it.
I spent 7 months away from the game.
Just got back recently after spending 7 months collecting parts for a new machine JUST so I could play this game.
Now that I can. I just dont find myself playing as much as I thought I would.
Maybe because I've played the game before. and now was looking at it from a semi outside perspective.
But within a week of comming back the reason became as obvious as the fingers on my hands.
The problem with the game is the gameplay itself has gotten or at the very least is getting stale.
I love the large maps. But really they only work well when there is no arena limit.
While I never liked the one mass furball all the time. I dont think having things so wide open due to arena number limits is good either.
But getting back to gameplay.
As I said the game play itself is getting stale.
We've had new machines to play with and BRAVO for that.
Its always good when a new plane or vehicle is added.
But the gameplay itself has changed very little.
There is little new to explore or do.
No new strategies to develop and figure out
Strat targets except for HQ are essentially meaningless.
they have next to no impact on the game so except to pad score.
There is little to no reason to attack them. And less then any reason to try to defend them.
Likewise with bridges and the rare train.
Both look cool as hell. but the bridges serve no real purpose.
you never see bridges cross an area that cant be just as easily crossed by going around them.
So there is no reason to defend these points
Cept for some tweaking Base captures essentially have remained the same as they were back in the days of Airwarrior
Pork the crap out of the field /and/or town and drop troops who simply run like little droids into the maproom.
Im not saying the game isnt any good anymore.Or that I dont enjoy playing it.
Just not nearly as much
It just isnt evolving enough.
Its becomming dated
I do have some suggestions.
Make Strat targets more of a factor. this has been way WAY overdue IMO
Reduce an ammo factory. maybe make Cannon and heavy ord less available
Refinery maybe have more of an impact as to fuel levels when fuel is hit at a feild.
Aircraft factory/ies run them like the Spit factory setup was in Airwarrior. But for different aircraft.
Bomber factory- reduced-remove heavy bombers
Fighter factory. Remove Uber planes
vehicles.- remove uber tanks
Reduce Field radar range and add radar towers outside the bases
Tie them into the zone system so the entire country isnt effected. just that zone.
They are large enough so that one plane cant pork an entire facility
yet
That way you provide a real reason to attack and rally to these areas to defend them.
This in itself will encourage furballs away from bases. Yet will still place some importance and options on capturing bases
Leave Zone feilds as they are
The ground game
Invasion fleets
Spawn LTVs in groups of 3 like with bombers.
(the visual effect of this alone would be worth it)
Add LSTs so as to provide a way to bring lighter tanks M16's and M8s to an invasion beach. (could treat em like carriers spawn PTs Difference is they would have to be near enough land to spawn them safely)
Place Bridges over rivers waterways and ravines And make them destroyable by bombs.
Make roadways more important. Have GVs travel faster on the road then they do over terrain
Add mobile artillary
And for gods sake get rid of the arena caps. Particularly when the large maps are up.
I could probably add more if I really sat here and thought about it.
Im not stating these because I dislike the game. Idont dislike the game
But to me it has the appearence ofa game on the decline.
And I'd rather not see that happen
In fact I love the game and because I want to see it continue to succeed and get better.
To continue to evolve to become more engrossing.
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Just bring back the H2H. Subscribers only, of course. Then all these guys who have an idealized memory of what AH can/should be all about can get together and create their own perfect arena for the gameplay that they want to have.
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I think the "9 years" says it all. I've flown a long time, and my best years were back in AW as far as the fun went. AH is alot of fun, and I imagine for those just starting, it is to them what AW was to me. I dont think its so much the game as it is the players.
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I am in no way proposing a fundamental change to the structure of the game itself, simply an opportunity to explore specific options of "tactical" game play. Here are a number of examples I'd consider...
1) Why even have 4 engine bombers in a tactical game, get rid of them.
2) Disable formations for medium bombers
3) change Hardness settings so small fields are 2x current, medium fields 4x and large fields 6x
4) perk planes enabled at large fields only
5) ack hardness is up and lethality is up
6) "easy mode" bombing is off and wind is on
I'm not looking for an arena thats "historical" or has a "campaign" and I'm not looking for a "serial duel" arena. What I want is a place that can attract a following of folks who primarily want air to air combat (or ground to ground) that has minimal appeal and/or value/impact to those who want to run "mizzuns". I don't want to take that game away from them or hinder them, I just want another option...
I do know that for at least a few hundred of us the game is somewhat stale. Yes we like the old ways and the old "rules" and at times we get upset with our selfs because we let the overall degradation of game play degrade our own view of whats "OK". I think that if you give us a place to call ours we'll populate it with decent numbers and better manners and over time a higher quality of game play will reemerge...
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Knowing Humble for.. *more than* 9 years, joining his AH squad those many years ago, I know what he's saying.
There used to be a place.. in AH called Fighter Town. That says it all! As I remember it.. any AC with 2 engines (or less) were there, no bombs. I like that idea..
:salute
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I don't think the addition such a "no capture, po perks, no score" arena would hurt anyone...but I doubt it would be that succesfull. For sure it wouldn't see 200-300 players each evening.
Lower numbers wouldn't be a problem as there would still be more quality fights. Hell, back in the day on AOL we used to be ecstatic to have 20 people on in FR.
See AvA - A very dedicated staff trying to do his best to provide somethign different, more fight than battle, more skills than capture, more planeset with a a "flavour" than P51D Spit16 Nik & co. And the numbers?
AVA does however have a solid core of cult followers. I think any sort of option created for "fighters" would easily have a few hundred people flying in it over the course of a day. I know of 100 people right now that would. I suppose AvA is the closest thing to what I'd like to see though it's still based around base capturing. However the limited planeset and constant low numbers (1-5 players) turns me off. I may have to spend more time in there though.
See DA: No capture, close bases, no score on website - and do you see better player behaviour? More "honorable" fights? I think the recent threads on that matter speak volumes, and player numbers also don't go much above 50-60.
The large problem with the DA IMO is perk planes and kills landed messages still being on. I am curious to see how it would change if those were removed. And killshooter turned off. :)
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here in AH I'm very surprised to realize that the game overall is markedly worse then it was when it started. That isn't an "I'm quitting" or "back in the good old days" comment. It also doesn't mean that I have any (let alone all) the answers. I know that everything the powers that be do is with the intent to make the game "better", that doesn't mean it is. The simple reality is that the game was never better then the original beta is every aspect that counted. The player base was elite, the flight model complex subtle and unforgiving and game play wasn't hampered with all the add on garbage.
I realize that "back to the future" is impossible but I wonder if small map fighter (and tank) {no ords} only arena is possible. No buffs, no base capture no "score" system. Just a place for the guys who want to actually fight without anything to attract the lesser elements (and yes I'm an elitist snob).
Should not be too hard for HTC to setup an arena with a small map where nothing is porkable and just a few airfields one sector apart. Some of the H2H maps should do just fine. They could try it our for a few months and see if it attracts any users.
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game play in the DA orients around "furball lake" which is artificial in the snse that its a bowl with 8k fields. As the real furballers gravitate down the real fight is at 0-3k, above that is the more E fight oriented aspect at 2-6K and above that is the guys entering the fray and the pickers. Normally a seasoned stick will enter the fight looking for an E fight vs others coming in then if victorious enter the lower level furball till time ammo and circumstance kill him or be augers. Now this is concurrent with newer and less skilled players in perk/cannon rides looking to pick the fight and constantly reupping.
In an arena with reasonable spacing you have a 1 to 2 1/2 sector flight to the fight. This helps encourage better ACM and minimizes the rinse and recycle aspect. Perk points apply for the perk rides so they are more balanced vs the DA.
I think the fact that the DA regularly out draws the AVA and EWA and often the MWA validates the idea that there is underlying interest.
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Maybe Drop EW or MW or combine them. Start a new Arena, Make it harder to capture a base, Put in a Large city or two. Maybe hide some Factories in there. Sounds like a good Idea. I'm sure you can't make a perfect arena for all but hey why not. Not many people in EW or MW anyway.
Crims
:aok
There is no need to combine those 2 arenas ... MW is just fine the way it is.
It doesn't take much for HTC to create another "arena" ... so there is no need to combine any arenas.
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Id rather a large map in Lw than Mw.. as you said.. big map + MW = utter sheet :lol
MW does not use "large" maps.
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Lower numbers wouldn't be a problem as there would still be more quality fights. Hell, back in the day on AOL we used to be ecstatic to have 20 people on in FR.
AVA does however have a solid core of cult followers. I think any sort of option created for "fighters" would easily have a few hundred people flying in it over the course of a day. I know of 100 people right now that would.
I'm not arguing that. There is more than pure numbers that can make up "success", my comments in that direction where more aimed at some (in my opinion exaggerated) how many players would such an arena attract in the long run.
The large problem with the DA IMO is perk planes and kills landed messages still being on. I am curious to see how it would change if those were removed. And killshooter turned off. :)
I'm not sure if perk planes are such a big part of the problem. In the MA's I found player behaviour based on players, not on planes ;). But I tend to agree that eliminating landed kill messages in DA would be a good measure to get this arena back to what it usually was intended for.
And regarding Kill Shooter - Unfortunately it was switched on by HTC because without it DA didn't work at all anymore :(
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someone mentioned large maps as a problem, and I agree, when there are more bases than players, just doesn't seem right.. (large maps - compello/ozkansas/tagma)
The size of the map has nothing to do with it ... as others have pointed out, it's the player base ... there are more "gamers" now than there are "simmers".
I actually prefer the larger maps in LW ... you can find some good fights on the fringes of the map as opposed to sections where you have to fight amongst each other to get a "kill" ... where your either "hording" or being "horded" ... not much fun as far as I am concerned.
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Yep, that's spot on slapshot.
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HT has said he wouldn't do anything that would split the community, so surely an arena just for one type of specific player is out of the question.
Or else why not have -
GV only arena
Buffs only arena
etc etc etc.
Where do you draw the line?
A certain player group likes to advocate we should all adapt to the arena caps etc, so why won't they adapt to the 'new' style of play?
AH has come a long way since I started playing, various changes, some I liked, some I didn't. But it is no longer a pure air to air game.
If it had remained like that I'd be surprised if there would be anything like the number of players there is now. Remember all these guys you seem to like slagging off, pay a subscription, and therefore helped to fund the game development.
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In addition to the current subscription of $14.99 for all current arenas, how 'bout an option for an "Aces High GOLD" arena. :)
Only the elite would want to play there because the subscription price would be $24.99. :cool:
This option would not prevent any and all ordinary subscribers from using the current arenas, just as they do today.
But only those who can cough up the extra $10 bucks a month will enjoy the privilege of flying in the "elite" arena. This price barrier would probably do an awful lot to eliminate dweebery.
Aces High GOLD card holders would of course be able to fly in all the arenas as today, but they and they alone will be able to enter the dread and august arena of the "best of the best" (or at least who believe they are). :D
I wasn't around when people flew by the hour, but apparently $24.99 would be a bargain compared to what some people were willing to pay then. :salute
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In addition to the current subscription of $14.99 for all current arenas, how 'bout an option for an "Aces High GOLD" arena. :)
Only the elite would want to play there because the subscription price would be $24.99. :cool:
This option would not prevent any and all ordinary subscribers from using the current arenas, just as they do today.
But only those who can cough up the extra $10 bucks a month will enjoy the privilege of flying in the "elite" arena. This price barrier would probably do an awful lot to eliminate dweebery.
Aces High GOLD card holders would of course be able to fly in all the arenas as today, but they and they alone will be able to enter the dread and august arena of the "best of the best" (or at least who believe they are). :D
I wasn't around when people flew by the hour, but apparently $24.99 would be a bargain compared to what some people were willing to pay then. :salute
Money, IMHO, is not the answer ... what makes you think that "griefers" are poor ?
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A certain player group likes to advocate we should all adapt to the arena caps etc, so why won't they adapt to the 'new' style of play?
AH has come a long way since I started playing, various changes, some I liked, some I didn't. But it is no longer a pure air to air game.
If it had remained like that I'd be surprised if there would be anything like the number of players there is now. Remember all these guys you seem to like slagging off, pay a subscription, and therefore helped to fund the game development.
Arena caps- a change made to lessen the negative effects you've had on the arenas.
Saying we should adapt to your gameplay - a change made in increase the negative effects you've had on the arenas.
There's a little bit of a difference.
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I'm not advocating anyone change there style of play. I also think the game has gone along way...in the wrong direction. Every change made since beta has been done to dumb down the game. The original cadre of beta flyers were the best sim pilots on the planet. The original flight model was exceptional IMO. Rewarding careful E management but allowing aggressive angles flying and very even across plane type.
Since then we have the introduction of the easy mode FM, IMO simply to ease the transition for all those coming from AW and other sims. Formations of buffs with easy mode bombing and laser beams for defense. Whats evolved is a style of play thats pitiful. In the last 12 hours I've run into 3 different sticks who are reasonably good but choose to hide behind numbers, body guards and plane type. All 3 are decent sticks and "top scorers" and have a measure of respect in the MA based on a flawed concept of what good is. Back in the old days these guys would be widely ridiculed and ignored by the better players and the squads.
what we have is strictly "RR" arenas, all i'm asking for is a true "FR" equivalent where the entire object isn't to set up a vulch or a 5/1 numbers advantage. Let the children have there fun but give the adults a place to play as well.
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I believe, as has been pointed out elsewhere, that the most likely solution for Humble's dilemma is the possible return of H2H, as mentioned by HiTech a couple weeks ago--It will be expanded to more than 8 players, whoever is running the room can pick the map (they used to make their OWN maps), and, most importantly, the host (whatever the term 'host' will be redefined as, since the room will be running on AH servers) can choose who is ALLOWED in his room, hence no squeakers in hordes/squads of Tempests and F4u4's orbiting the fight at 15k :aok I've even seen rooms where the host put an UPward 100+ knot wind at the cap alt, and if you passed it, you couldn't go back down if you wanted to.
I see GREAT possibilities for this :pray
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A certain player group likes to advocate we should all adapt to the arena caps etc, so why won't they adapt to the 'new' style of play?
A good question and a simple answer, there is no real challenge in the "new style" of play at all for some of us. Score is easy to manipulate and the variables in the formula so far from realistic. Lets look at the "top" pilot in score pacerr, he's got most of his fighter kills in a tempest. Look at his other scores in various fighters. He highlights everything wrong with the way the game is measured. In a good scoring system a guy with a 1/1 kill ratio in a 109E or similiar should rank above a guy like this.
Just guessing i'd say a guy like Greebo should be the #1 fighter score. He's flying a mid eny plane without any padding. Personally I think all perk ride scores should be discounted from "fighter" score and the kills adjusted for eny. So if a guy in an Eny 40 plane kills a eny 5 fighter he should get credit for 8 kills and the other guy should get 8 deaths.
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If you make an H2H room, you can remove Tempests! ;)
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And maybe the game has passed a bunch of us 'vets' by. I remember reading something Blue Baron wrote at the end or Airwarrior, and he talked about the waves of players that come and go and how the game continues to evolve. He also talked about each group of 'vets' mourning the loss of 'their' game as the next new wave of players came through. It feels a bit like that to me right now.
I'm in agreement with those saying it's more about gamers now then flight sim guys. I suppose it's just the nature of the beast. I can't begrudge HTC the income and expanding the player base is what makes it happen. That means attracting the gamers.
It makes it hard for those of us who play the game for a different reason. Wading through the mob to find like minded players gets harder and harder.
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Maybe it's time to have a relaxed realism arena for the gamers, that would include external views and stall limiter always enabled.
In the full realism arena, double the perks on all perk planes and require 30 troops for a base capture. Place emphasis on destroying large, tough to kill strats, hopefully inducing bomber missions, or perhaps ground attacks into strats near the front lines. This should drive the gamers where they can play and provide the sim guys an arena where base capture alone is not a driving factor.
HTC could satisfy both segments of the player population.
Just thinking in text....
My regards,
Widewing
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If you make an H2H room, you can remove Tempests! ;)
Thats not his point, you wont EVER be able to make a H2H room with the posisblity of 100 people in it. It just wont be feasuble. What happens if 7 people make that?
Humble's Idea IMO is a fantastic idea. I am no where near a good stick, I dont have a rank, and Im growing tired of the game play. I like a long fight with good fun twined with learning. Nowadays in the MA it just doesnt happen. If I look at a 1v1, or even if I start fighting with a few cons, im almost guaranteed to be picked or HOed. I should go to the DA. Indeed I tried. What resulted was exactly the saem behavior, simply on a smaller scale. Instead of a massive furball, I had 2 or three folk, diving in trying for the pick. If they missed, they did a U turn and HOed you.
Humble isn't suggesting changing the MA. He isnt saying 'Make the pickers and HOers and sqeakers convert to MY way of playing.' Quite the opposite, he is suggesting a new arena, so that those players that I listed can continue with what they find fun. Its their $14.99 as well. But a new arena, where the 'Older' generation of AW vets etc can go, and fight with proper ACM and be rewarded for it, and the 'Younger' generation who want to learn ACM (Myself) can go, and be taught the hard way, by Vets still willing to teach those who are willing, and honour the old code of flying.
I get the feeling in escence, you want to go back to the WW1 style of fighting, where it was chivalrous, and honourable. I totally agree, and I would definetly fly in that new arena more than in the MA.
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I hoped CT was gonna change all this. But humbles right this isnt a game for a flight sim fan anymore most people only seem to want to get a high score and will go to any lengths to acheive that. I always prefared H2H and a door policy, the MA is so predictable sometimes people taking down the vh and ack to set up mass vulchings with no intentions of taking the base its always been that way but now it seems like an organized artform to boost score, and then the backslapping and wtgs on 200 as they land their kills :rofl
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A certain player group likes to advocate we should all adapt to the arena caps etc, so why won't they adapt to the 'new' style of play?
A good question and a simple answer, there is no real challenge in the "new style" of play at all for some of us. Score is easy to manipulate and the variables in the formula so far from realistic. Lets look at the "top" pilot in score pacerr, he's got most of his fighter kills in a tempest. Look at his other scores in various fighters. He highlights everything wrong with the way the game is measured. In a good scoring system a guy with a 1/1 kill ratio in a 109E or similiar should rank above a guy like this.
Just guessing i'd say a guy like Greebo should be the #1 fighter score. He's flying a mid eny plane without any padding. Personally I think all perk ride scores should be discounted from "fighter" score and the kills adjusted for eny. So if a guy in an Eny 40 plane kills a eny 5 fighter he should get credit for 8 kills and the other guy should get 8 deaths.
When I suggested that fighter rank be modified by ENY I was called a "score nanny."
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I've always wondered how it would have worked out with Hitech sticking to his guns about the early-mid war planes in late war.
I know for a day or two he intended late war to be late war rides ONLY. I know everyone went nuts about not being able to fly against uber rides but it would have definately given early/mid war a fighting chance. I would bet mid war would have been the most populated with some core groups sticking to early/late.
Maybe when the planeset is fleshed out a bit more he should try it again. Soon as he went back on it the late war arena essentially became the old MA split into two.
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Arena caps- a change made to lessen the negative effects you've had on the arenas.
Saying we should adapt to your gameplay - a change made in increase the negative effects you've had on the arenas.
There's a little bit of a difference.
Be careful about 'throwing' the "you've had" accusation, I personally have had no effect on any arena in about a year, I just happen to see things from ALL sides.
Every other group in the community is expected, in fact demanded to adapt to the changing gameplay, what makes you so special you don't think your group has to?
Edit -
Bruv119 - Wouldn't work now with ENY limits, unless all planes were re-assed on their ENY values.
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You, as in generically, anyone opposed to an arena that they would never visit, simply because the concept is antithetical to hordewarrior CTF.
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When I suggested that fighter rank be modified by ENY I was called a "score nanny."
you were/are 100% correct. A guy who ups a 109E from a capped field and gets 2 kills before dieing should have like 16x the "score" points of a guy who rtb's 4 kills vs a capped field IMO.
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of course you would have to redo the eny and perk rides for each arena.
I just think the player base would be better spread with 3 arena choices and no caps. The choice would then be "what planes would i like to fly today?" rather than "Dam i cant get into LW orange where all my squaddies are because of the cap"
If everyone still went straight for the 1945 plane arena "because thats where everyone else is" i'd be surprised.
if you had 100, 200, 200 with no caps I think everyone would be happy with the gameplay. Big if though :D
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Thats not his point, you wont EVER be able to make a H2H room with the posisblity of 100 people in it. It just wont be feasuble. What happens if 7 people make that?
Humble's Idea IMO is a fantastic idea. I am no where near a good stick, I dont have a rank, and Im growing tired of the game play. I like a long fight with good fun twined with learning. Nowadays in the MA it just doesnt happen. If I look at a 1v1, or even if I start fighting with a few cons, im almost guaranteed to be picked or HOed. I should go to the DA. Indeed I tried. What resulted was exactly the saem behavior, simply on a smaller scale. Instead of a massive furball, I had 2 or three folk, diving in trying for the pick. If they missed, they did a U turn and HOed you.
Humble isn't suggesting changing the MA. He isnt saying 'Make the pickers and HOers and sqeakers convert to MY way of playing.' Quite the opposite, he is suggesting a new arena, so that those players that I listed can continue with what they find fun. Its their $14.99 as well. But a new arena, where the 'Older' generation of AW vets etc can go, and fight with proper ACM and be rewarded for it, and the 'Younger' generation who want to learn ACM (Myself) can go, and be taught the hard way, by Vets still willing to teach those who are willing, and honour the old code of flying.
I get the feeling in escence, you want to go back to the WW1 style of fighting, where it was chivalrous, and honourable. I totally agree, and I would definetly fly in that new arena more than in the MA.
Dont need or want 100 people. 20 like-minded folks having fun without punks in roving hordes of ho'ing Tempests effing everything up is all I'm thinking of. If we had 7 rooms like that, we'd have 140 people having a blast, whilst the mega-squads have their fun in the MA's rolling 40 guys on undefended fields, then congratulating each other on country channel as they land their 5 on 1 kills :rolleyes:. That is the nearest, shortest path to preferable game play for a LOT of folks.
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the idea for subscriber H2H rooms with say up to 16 slots would do it for those guys wanting a decent fight.
Or to host squad vs squad fights.
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Fighter Aces has B-29s according the Bruv, also they have a Korian war planeset.
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you were/are 100% correct. A guy who ups a 109E from a capped field and gets 2 kills before dieing should have like 16x the "score" points of a guy who rtb's 4 kills vs a capped field IMO.
It would be neat to be able to do that, but I don't know what sort of coding challenges something like "zone ENY" would introduce. Modifying rank based on fighter ENY is an easy step in the right direction.
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You, as in generically, anyone opposed to an arena that they would never visit, simply because the concept is antithetical to hordewarrior CTF.
Ahh, even then I still haven't had ANY effect on ANY arena.
HT has consistently said he wouldn't do anything that would fracture the comunity.
Giving a you basically your own sandbox would be just that, a fracture.
Next the GV'ers would be (quite rightly) demanding their own sandbox free of aicraft.
Or how about buff drivers demanding their own sandbox also.
I have said for a long time that the furballers and the rest of the community can't co-exist in the same arena. But unless HT has a change of heart (and what it could lead to), I can't see it happening.
The game has changed so much since even I joined that it is now dominated by "win the war" and strategy type players.
Here is the crux of the matter ( I believe). - Despite extra planes, tweaks like increased ack, more barracks, 2x fuel burn etc, the game itself hasn't changed.
"Maybe" now that CT has been put on hold we might see some gameplay changes that helps ALL the groups co-exist.
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Would changing the scoring change the game dynamics? As it is tweaking your rank is easy enough to do. Getting a high rank isn't due to learning and performing better, it just tweaking the system we have to your advantage. If score and rank meant something would we get better play?
Suggestion...
Rename the scores/rank page we have now to the "Stats page", and remove the rank column. Lots of people like statistics and this is a great resource for those "numbers" kind of people.
Next, simplify the scores and make then more specific to the categories.
- Fighter- score is based on kills and assists. Highest ENY plane gets the most points for a kill.
- spit 1, 100 points for a kill, 10 points for an assist.
- LA7, 12.5 for a kill, 1.25 for an assist
This basing the scoring off 2.5 x ENY 40, and 2.5 x ENY 5. Thats it clean and simple. Player that fly higher ENY planes are rewarded with higher point per kill. It doesn't change the numbers whether you kill a high ENY plane, or a low ENY plane, and the top fighter is the one with the highest points.
- Bomber- same thing, you get 500 points per hanger, and 50 points for anything else Starting with the highest ENY bomber and working down for the lowest.
- Attack- same again, but total points for kills and ground targets. Killing a GV would get only half the kill points.
- Vehicles- same, but strait up like the fighters 100 points for the highest ENY and down from there. Air kills and GV kills are scored the same, building scored the same as the buffs.
With a plain and simple scoring system it would promote fighters to fight, buffs to hit things and so on. Set it so you only receive half the points is you don't RTB. This adds a penalty if you bail or can't defend your self well enough to get back.
This only leaves the "time" issue. Some people play all day, day in and day out. Even if they suck they would lead the score board. We would need a multiplier to even out the numbers. Player A had 10 hours today(the most for that day) and player B has 1 hour (the least for that day) multiple player B's totals times 10. This multiplier is done once a day like the rankings are done now. Total points are not posted, just what rank each person is.
The rinse and repeat mentality wouldn't get you far up the board due to only getting half the points per trip. The fly only the uber rides would take much longer to get anywhere do to the low point values (look at how many people complain about not having enough perks to fly a perked ride..."it takes too long to build perks" :cry ) While buff most RTB for max points they would get help by escorts who would be going after those guys trying to grab easy kills against the buffs. By hiding the actual point totals and only displaying the rank placement you take away those looking to tweak the system by trying to match what points the other guy is getting.
And for the "Name in lights".... I think it should stay, but with a twist. Getting your 2 kills and making it home to get your name in lights is a big highlight for some, especially the new guys. Its a small victory, and an accomplishment broadcast to the whole arena that "so and so " did good. A small pat on the back for a job well done. The twist, up the anty! The lower 50% in rank need 2 kills, each 10% up the ladder needs 1 addition kill to get there name in lights. So those guys ranking in the top 90% would need to land 9 kills to get their name in lights.
Can something like this be done? Would it work like I think it might? How say you?
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an interesting idea fugitive. You could also think of other ways to attatch name in lights. Maybe if you flying with high eny, no name in lights. Kills from vulching don't count towards landing kills, or at all. Maybe points scored reduced when killing at break neck speeds, reduction for face shots, or formula for counting score related to friendly player density for an area.
I think score and name in light issues are only part of a larger one though. Changes in this area would affect only those who care about scoring. Then again, maybe there is a large portion in which do. I think if AH will give public acknowledgement for ranking well through a tour, it will affect gameplay to an extent...though largely dependent on how many are into it.
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I'd love to see only perk points mentioned. So player A in a high ENY plane gets a "Player A has landed 37.2 perks" while player B who swooped a few in his perk ride flying with the #'s gets a "Player B has landed .63 perks" :aok
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I'd love to see only perk points mentioned. So player A in a high ENY plane gets a "Player A has landed 37.2 perks" while player B who swooped a few in his perk ride flying with the #'s gets a "Player B has landed .63 perks" :aok
Better yet, don't even mention player B if they land less than x number of perks.
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Better yet, don't even mention player B if they land less than x number of perks.
better yet, don't mention anyone for landing.
it seems too many get their 2 kills, then run from the rest of the fights, so they can see their name in lights.
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an interesting idea fugitive. You could also think of other ways to attatch name in lights. Maybe if you flying with high eny, no name in lights. Kills from vulching don't count towards landing kills, or at all. Maybe points scored reduced when killing at break neck speeds, reduction for face shots, or formula for counting score related to friendly player density for an area.
I think score and name in light issues are only part of a larger one though. Changes in this area would affect only those who care about scoring. Then again, maybe there is a large portion in which do. I think if AH will give public acknowledgement for ranking well through a tour, it will affect gameplay to an extent...though largely dependent on how many are into it.
I think the things I suggested are based of the information they already have access to so "coading" would be minimal. Detecting HO's vulches and such would add a lot of extra coding to monitor that.
I think "rank" and "Score" are important to a large majority of the players, mostly those players who are "gamers". While changing the points system won't turn the gamers into "simmers" it will turn them toward a more simmers type of play rewarding them in points and rank to play the game in a more simmers style of play. The idea isn't to take away what they want in the game....a high score or rank, but to adjust how they get it. In doing so it adjust the game play and dynamic of the game.
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HT could tinker and change the scoring system until we are all older and greyer.
It wouldn't change a thing, people would still find a way to game it, it's human nature.
Much in the way the majority of people prefer to fly in an arena with a lot of players.
Try to change human nature and your on a hiding to nothing.
The solution is changes in the game itself that will allow all the various groups to co-exist in whatever arena they are in.
No, I don't know what to change.
I haven't set foot (or plane) in AH in about a year, but it seems to me the same complaints we were having a year ago, are the same complaints we are having now.
A seperate arena for a specific groups needs won't happen (nothing to fracture the community), so why not try and adapt to the current game like everyone else has had to?
I didn't like the 2x fuel burn, had to adapt.
I didn't like ENY limits (either way), had to adapt.
I didn't like caps, spent lot of time trying to get into an arena (adapted).
I didn't like uncaptureable bases, had to adapt
The list goes on and on and on and...............
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I was never a furballer but i agree with you, i like the tactical /strategic side of the game combined with a passion for ww2 aviation history and from my toolsheder point of view, there's nothing to win, nothing left to promote fight ,with all those bases uncapturable, eny, arena split, 40% capture for win,HQ and other strategic tgts just useless spots on the map .
All that's left to fight for is this ridiculous abused score system, and a spot on front home page.
Let's sign peace treaty ,log off and let's go drink a beer.
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you mean "strat" targets.
And I agree thats part of it.
I spent 7 months away from the game.
Just got back recently after spending 7 months collecting parts for a new machine JUST so I could play this game.
Now that I can. I just dont find myself playing as much as I thought I would.
Maybe because I've played the game before. and now was looking at it from a semi outside perspective.
But within a week of comming back the reason became as obvious as the fingers on my hands.
The problem with the game is the gameplay itself has gotten or at the very least is getting stale.
I love the large maps. But really they only work well when there is no arena limit.
While I never liked the one mass furball all the time. I dont think having things so wide open due to arena number limits is good either.
But getting back to gameplay.
As I said the game play itself is getting stale.
We've had new machines to play with and BRAVO for that.
Its always good when a new plane or vehicle is added.
But the gameplay itself has changed very little.
There is little new to explore or do.
No new strategies to develop and figure out
Strat targets except for HQ are essentially meaningless.
they have next to no impact on the game so except to pad score.
There is little to no reason to attack them. And less then any reason to try to defend them.
Likewise with bridges and the rare train.
Both look cool as hell. but the bridges serve no real purpose.
you never see bridges cross an area that cant be just as easily crossed by going around them.
So there is no reason to defend these points
Cept for some tweaking Base captures essentially have remained the same as they were back in the days of Airwarrior
Pork the crap out of the field /and/or town and drop troops who simply run like little droids into the maproom.
Im not saying the game isnt any good anymore.Or that I dont enjoy playing it.
Just not nearly as much
It just isnt evolving enough.
Its becomming dated
I do have some suggestions.
Make Strat targets more of a factor. this has been way WAY overdue IMO
Reduce an ammo factory. maybe make Cannon and heavy ord less available
Refinery maybe have more of an impact as to fuel levels when fuel is hit at a feild.
Aircraft factory/ies run them like the Spit factory setup was in Airwarrior. But for different aircraft.
Bomber factory- reduced-remove heavy bombers
Fighter factory. Remove Uber planes
vehicles.- remove uber tanks
Reduce Field radar range and add radar towers outside the bases
Tie them into the zone system so the entire country isnt effected. just that zone.
They are large enough so that one plane cant pork an entire facility
yet
That way you provide a real reason to attack and rally to these areas to defend them.
This in itself will encourage furballs away from bases. Yet will still place some importance and options on capturing bases
Leave Zone feilds as they are
The ground game
Invasion fleets
Spawn LTVs in groups of 3 like with bombers.
(the visual effect of this alone would be worth it)
Add LSTs so as to provide a way to bring lighter tanks M16's and M8s to an invasion beach. (could treat em like carriers spawn PTs Difference is they would have to be near enough land to spawn them safely)
Place Bridges over rivers waterways and ravines And make them destroyable by bombs.
Make roadways more important. Have GVs travel faster on the road then they do over terrain
Add mobile artillary
And for gods sake get rid of the arena caps. Particularly when the large maps are up.
I could probably add more if I really sat here and thought about it.
Im not stating these because I dislike the game. Idont dislike the game
But to me it has the appearence ofa game on the decline.
And I'd rather not see that happen
In fact I love the game and because I want to see it continue to succeed and get better.
To continue to evolve to become more engrossing.
Yes, I didn't even notice the typo until I read your post.
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Good luck with that whatever the idea. Just look at todays DA for a clue.
Lol as of late the DA hasnt actually been very good at all, cant get a nice fight in there unless you actually go 1v1 far from the madding crowd but oh well doo daa happens hehe, It all helps with avoidance techiques. :rofl
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The DA would be closer to this if the perk system was implemented (even multiplied to where the better planes are even harder to get) and there were no externals. As it is now, it is a place to give the less skilled players something to do that can't hang in the MA or have too short of an attention span. I am not sayng that good sticks don't make appearances in the DA and some are there quite a bit it seems, but for the most part it is a draw to keep the weaker players happy. It is certainly not what snaphook is describing. Of course there will always be the picking and the whining in any open room, even if it only had P40B's. The only way to fix that (that I can see) is to have a paid H2H option that have hosts who stay logged in and actively watch what is happening. Then rules can be established and griefers can be booted. When that happens, I think many older players and better sticks will have a place to go for refuge.
Well said old chap, bloody good idea used to have some jolly times in the h2h arenas. :aok
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wo of the things I've read in this thread stick out to me...
1. Someone raised the idea that the AHII flight model has been "dumbed down". If this is so, then I agree it is a step in the wrong direction. The point is to have an FM that is neither too "easy" OR too "hard, but representative.
However, HTC seems to have gone to a great deal of trouble with their flight model engine specifically in the attempt to get realistic performance out of the airplanes, so I tend to believe that this is their goal.
2. Okay...here seems to be the big one. Getting ganged and getting picked. Everyone gets frustrated by it. Everyone has situations where they just pulled a maneuver and are about to blow the opponent out of the sky when *boom*...back in the tower.
But okay...here is a question...I can understand the fascination of 1v1s...and they are not totally extinct in the MA, but yeah, they are quite likely to be interrupted. Couldn't it be argued that the considerations of surviving and killing in a many-on-many encounter are also quite involved and strategically interesting though?
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I was never a furballer but i agree with you, i like the tactical /strategic side of the game combined with a passion for ww2 aviation history and from my toolsheder point of view, there's nothing to win, nothing left to promote fight ,with all those bases uncapturable, eny, arena split, 40% capture for win,HQ and other strategic tgts just useless spots on the map .
All that's left to fight for is this ridiculous abused score system, and a spot on front home page.
Let's sign peace treaty ,log off and let's go drink a beer.
Excuse me, but this is so wrong and so totally off from actual facts.
"All those bases uncapturable" ? Exactly 3 out of 24-80+ bases per side are "all those" ?
"Nothing left to win" ? How comes that I still see arenas resetting from won wars on a regular base? Just 4h ago rooks won LWO, LWb was won two or three times in the last two days ago.
"Nothing to promote the fight?" How comes that we still see all those battles?
Do you actually recall how gameplay was in the last months before the "win" requirements were changed? Winning awar simply meant both bigger countries throwing themselfs on the smaller one, the question was just who's able to get the bigger share of the pie, thus "winning" the war. At that time it was indeed usually Knightland having to suffer from this. Now there's still ganging, but at one point a winnign coutnry has o face not only the weakest adversary, or you won't win the map. More challenge, more possibilites for smallest country to recover, less players logging in disgust when you are again just victim of the bigger coutnrie's hordes, HQ is gine, HQ bases gone, and you just know it will be the same again after next reset.
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What you superheros need is a, superduper hero arena, call it the " HT JUSTICE LEAGUE " :rofl Then you can stand around and admire each others cape and tights :P. never really fighting each other and always talkin about how lame the hero cadets are :rofl :rofl :rofl
OK! get ready, set---> GO I'm ready to be ganged by the chivalrous---> :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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the idea for subscriber H2H rooms with say up to 16 slots would do it for those guys wanting a decent fight.
Or to host squad vs squad fights.
INdeed.... :aok
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Quote from: SunBat on November 08, 2008, 03:04:56 PM
The DA would be closer to this if the perk system was implemented (even multiplied to where the better planes are even harder to get) and there were no externals. As it is now, it is a place to give the less skilled players something to do that can't hang in the MA or have too short of an attention span. I am not sayng that good sticks don't make appearances in the DA and some are there quite a bit it seems, but for the most part it is a draw to keep the weaker players happy. It is certainly not what snaphook is describing. Of course there will always be the picking and the whining in any open room, even if it only had P40B's. The only way to fix that (that I can see) is to have a paid H2H option that have hosts who stay logged in and actively watch what is happening. Then rules can be established and griefers can be booted. When that happens, I think many older players and better sticks will have a place to go for refuge.
Well said old chap, bloody good idea used to have some jolly times in the h2h arenas. :aok
Good solution to a complex problem..everyone gets what they want..IMHO. :aok CAn't beat the K.I.S.S. principal. :D
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No name in lights and no ranking system would be fine by me.
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I suspect any "ELITE ARENA" would be filled with the old EGO heads for about 3 days, Then after they find it hard to dominate cause so many will be at their skill level, most would gravitate back to the MA, all the while citing that the new elite arena is lame. The reality is you superheros are finding it hard to dominate as you once did cause the population has grown---> good for HTC. Whether you admit it or not you want your name in lights and also want to be recognised as being the top echelon! Unfortunately the only way for this, is to have a good score, but you are unwilling to perform all the anoying little tasks required to do so! Hmm maybe Brett Favre could win the superbowl all by himself,--> NOT! it takes a vast support system where even a lowly water boy is needed! My point being, if you want to be recognised in this system then do the things required, otherwise stop yammering already :aok
I'm really quite sad for you guys actually, the game is still fun to me, I'm not good enough to be bored yet and many fights are a challenge and quite exhilerating at times, probably much the way you felt back in the day! I think the game is probably the same as it always was, but your skills are higher but not high enough to overcome #s, and when you're found to be in an area your gonna be a target, everyone wants to eliminate the top dogs even if it is dweebery! I find myself being targeted allot, this is the way I like it as the few victorys are that much sweeter, a few rantings on 200 and I'm guaranteed some ganging attention even from the chivalrous superheros :aok
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I'm not good enough to be bored yet and many fights are a challenge and quite exhilerating at times, probably much the way you felt back in the day!
I expect that there is a grain of truth in this.
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Shreck, As I said in my last post, im not good. There is no way on earth I could ever count myself as 'Good' I have trouble landing a kill. I have trouble GETTING a kill. But for me, whiter I live or die through a fight is no differance. I had some amzing duels with Batfinkv the other week. Left me feeling really good about myself, caus I managed to keep the fight going. I can honestly say I dont care about rank, or name in lights. Yes its good, and I get a pat on my back, but if I relly cared about it, I would fly a spit XVI / LA 7/ Niki. But I dont. I fly the a6m5b, or the Spit 1. Therefore, any kill I get, I really feel I earned and I didnt get it in 'Easy mode' by picking or HOing. I dont dominate the arena, but im still getting bored by the same stale play of 'finding a fight, dodge a HO, he runs, then you get picked. Rinse repeat.' To me, thats boring gameplay. Im not the same as everyone, thank god, for if I was, it would be a boring world. Now despite all this, I would still choose this new ACM arena over all others. I would get hammered, time and time and time again, but I would learn what I like, a nice ACM fight.
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I suspect any "ELITE ARENA" would be filled with the old EGO heads for about 3 days, Then after they find it hard to dominate cause so many will be at their skill level, most would gravitate back to the MA, all the while citing that the new elite arena is lame. The reality is you superheros are finding it hard to dominate as you once did cause the population has grown---> good for HTC. Whether you admit it or not you want your name in lights and also want to be recognised as being the top echelon! Unfortunately the only way for this, is to have a good score, but you are unwilling to perform all the anoying little tasks required to do so! Hmm maybe Brett Favre could win the superbowl all by himself,--> NOT! it takes a vast support system where even a lowly water boy is needed! My point being, if you want to be recognised in this system then do the things required, otherwise stop yammering already :aok
I'm really quite sad for you guys actually, the game is still fun to me, I'm not good enough to be bored yet and many fights are a challenge and quite exhilerating at times, probably much the way you felt back in the day! I think the game is probably the same as it always was, but your skills are higher but not high enough to overcome #s, and when you're found to be in an area your gonna be a target, everyone wants to eliminate the top dogs even if it is dweebery! I find myself being targeted allot, this is the way I like it as the few victorys are that much sweeter, a few rantings on 200 and I'm guaranteed some ganging attention even from the chivalrous superheros :aok
Watch out for that chip on your shoulder...
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Watch out for that chip on your shoulder...
There is NO chip! I have been ganged, picked, hoed, and vulched by the elite sticks more times than I can count, I am just shedding an alternate light on this subject---> that it just may not be the community, and the issues may reside in ones self. Lets be clear--> I have also ganged, picked, vulched, and oh yes hoed, but I am not part of the "whoa is me, rules should be the same except for me" crowd! I am very perplexed why finding a good fight is so hard :huh just ask over ch200 and ye shall recieve, or how about this---> pool a few folks together to meet say in DA at a certain time and bash each other to death! :aok A little effort just might go a long way ;) An elite arena!<--- honestly, just how big are your heads ? :rolleyes:
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If I've learned anything from your recent posts its that you:
"have been ganged, picked, hoed, and vulched"
a lot.
Any reason you need to repeat that over and over?
"elite sticks" is obviously a perspective thing. I can't really name one stick that I consider a strong veteran that gangs, picks, HO's, or vulches consistantly or repeatedly. Who do you consider an "elite stick"?
An elite arena!<--- honestly, just how big are your heads ?
How would the proposed arena be elite (since your the one calling it that)? Is membership limited? Do you need to pass a test to get in?
I think you should read again what was suggested. An arena that focuses on the combat. Not on NOE misshuns attempting to avoid combat, not on porking for whatever reason, but on the combat. People provided reasons why the DA and AvA are not the answer. With the recent addition of multiple special events arenas we can obviously deduce that adding an arena is not a difficult task for HTC.
Are you going to provide a good reason why the proposed arena is a bad idea besides "it's for the elite" or "thats what the DA is for!"? I hope so and look forward to your response.
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I suspect any "ELITE ARENA" would be filled with the old EGO heads for about 3 days, Then after they find it hard to dominate cause so many will be at their skill level, most would gravitate back to the MA, all the while citing that the new elite arena is lame. The reality is you superheros are finding it hard to dominate as you once did cause the population has grown---> good for HTC. Whether you admit it or not you want your name in lights and also want to be recognised as being the top echelon! Unfortunately the only way for this, is to have a good score, but you are unwilling to perform all the anoying little tasks required to do so! Hmm maybe Brett Favre could win the superbowl all by himself,--> NOT! it takes a vast support system where even a lowly water boy is needed! My point being, if you want to be recognised in this system then do the things required, otherwise stop yammering already :aok
I'm really quite sad for you guys actually, the game is still fun to me, I'm not good enough to be bored yet and many fights are a challenge and quite exhilerating at times, probably much the way you felt back in the day! I think the game is probably the same as it always was, but your skills are higher but not high enough to overcome #s, and when you're found to be in an area your gonna be a target, everyone wants to eliminate the top dogs even if it is dweebery! I find myself being targeted allot, this is the way I like it as the few victorys are that much sweeter, a few rantings on 200 and I'm guaranteed some ganging attention even from the chivalrous superheros :aok
Since I'm the one who started this thread i'll take this as being aimed at me...
I'm amazed at your comments but I also see you as a "victim". Way back when we had a pretty good fight (your ki-84 vs my spit9) and you were well on your way to developing some extraordinary skills. More and more guys just like you are "giving in" and "doing what it takes" {which I define as porking, picking, vulching and milkrunning}. So we have a whole new generation that are defining progress by an artificial standard IMO. I never said that I'm "elite" or that this was an arena aimed for uber sticks. Simply one that put the focus on air to air and ground combat without forcing "all the little things" that you feel are essential to getting ahead that I feel detract from the spirit of the game.
Personally I have no interest in getting my name in "lights" because the criteria for achieving those goals are both laughably easy and pitifully misguided. My perspective is that air combat is not really a "team game" beyond a few people at most. when you read the comments of fighter pilots on all sides it's clear that within the broader melee this is a individual endeavor with minimal mention of even a wingman. Personally my choice of planes makes it almost impossible to "dominate" any arena let alone survive even a significant % of my hops. So what do I fly for, that individual encounter where I get a chance to be "the man in the arena"
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat .
All I want is that "arena" unmarred by artificial rules or contrivances. I'm not seeking to limit plane choice or create forced rules of engagement or legislate "fair" fights. I simply want to remove the artificial attributes of the current system that diminish the possibilities.
By circumstance I happened across four fights that highlight what I'm talking about over the weekend. In one instance I encountered a well known (almost always top 5 overall, top 10 fighter score) foe in one of his fighters of choice co-alt in my A-20 and beat him even up in a dueling style fight. that doesnt mean i'd beat him every time or that i'm a better pilot. But in that moment at that time in a even fight vs a worthy opponent I won. All in all I was 2-2 in my A-20 in those fights...but all the time was really to find those 4 "moments in the arena".
Just like one day long ago when I found you in Ki and afterward you commented that it was one of the best fights you'd ever had. So while more and more folks like yourself seem to feel that the measure of a man is defined by a willingness to "do what it takes" to meet an artificial standard all I want is the chance to earn the respect of the the other "man in the arena"
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Now despite all this, I would still choose this new ACM arena over all others. I would get hammered, time and time and time again, but I would learn what I like, a nice ACM fight.
But the main fact is even if you gain the upper hand in any fight, the other guy is going to take whatever advantage to get the upper hand back or win the fight. Many times that will include a HO or other tactics that many of you find annoying. I know I find it annoying. What are they supposed to do? Die like a man? Come on. This is a game.
As stated before, why don't you guys try to improve the game play of us newer guys rather than rant about how the game is "not like it used to be." You threw this idea out the window like an empty soda cup. Why not implement a system if mentoring to help the newer pilots achieve a higher level that you would seem to enjoy. Along the way, you may find that the skill increases and dweebery diminishes.
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But the main fact is even if you gain the upper hand in any fight, the other guy is going to take whatever advantage to get the upper hand back or win the fight. Many times that will include a HO or other tactics that many of you find annoying. I know I find it annoying. What are they supposed to do? Die like a man? Come on. This is a game.
This would be a simple conformation that they where in the wrong arena.
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This would be a simple conformation that they where in the wrong arena.
Why? If we are "simulating" war, aren't we supposed to put it all out on the table?
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But the main fact is even if you gain the upper hand in any fight, the other guy is going to take whatever advantage to get the upper hand back or win the fight. Many times that will include a HO or other tactics that many of you find annoying. I know I find it annoying. What are they supposed to do? Die like a man? Come on. This is a game.
As stated before, why don't you guys try to improve the game play of us newer guys rather than rant about how the game is "not like it used to be." You threw this idea out the window like an empty soda cup. Why not implement a system if mentoring to help the newer pilots achieve a higher level that you would seem to enjoy. Along the way, you may find that the skill increases and dweebery diminishes.
Many of us do offer help (I spent a tour as a trainer and still help out anyone who asks). Feel free to fly with us (71 Squadron) anytime you want to come to the dark side for a day (we fly knight, vox 171). The HO is much rarer then expected (most HO's really aren't) and if you are in control of a fight learning to not offer a "50/50" shot is part of the learning process. However in a fight vs a known enemy most of us will not fire when if a true HO occurs. I'll pass on anything close to a HO. At the same time I'm not going to let an unknown get around on me from an inferior position. A lot of the time when i'm accused of a HO it is a pure canopy shot on a guy trying to push a losing position. In effect he's forcing me to decide between killing him or abandoning both angular and Energy advantage while giving him a belly shot of some type. Most people who complain about post merge "HO's" are just darwin award winners in the making IMO.
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mulli got me up and running snap, so stop bashing your head against this brick wall and come to DA to find me :D I'm logging on in 5 mins.
S!
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My reference to " ELITE" was brought on by others in this thread before me! Scroll back and you shall see! My post is certainly not a bash at you snap, as you are one of the guys in here I actually admire as much as one can over the binary of the internet! So if it came off that way to you, then I----> apologise! I see the "old days are gone" threads as nothing more than old hatters not willing to change the changes in aces high in my perspective are good! More peeps means more $ for more changes and on and on! So many new folks brings many many more challenges to staff and players alike, Everyone started as NOOB and cuts their teeth in pretty much the same schedule.
The statement you made of not being a dominent force in the arena rings hollow snap!! and most would agree you are a killer! (sometimes modesty is transparent) :aok
Now as far as me giving in to something--> I have no idea what you are infering, if it is that you think I'm a toolshedder please look again as this is not the case. If you believe I avoid the confrontation, again please rethink this as I won't avoid any 1v1 and consistently go to the locations where I here the great sticks are at! I also consistently defend bases as this is a "no effort" way to get into some action quickly! Again I am quite confused about the inability to get in a good fight, It was quite simple for me to text BiPolar for some 262 fun at a certain area, the fights were clean, fair and quite fun, although I got spanked it was enjoyable. My point is this--> getting into a good fight just isn't that hard, a small amount of management and commitment will insure success! I remember our fights that you mentioned and they were quite fun, and I have plenty of them nowadays also. So if I have given in to the mob mentality or am lame in other ways please elaborate. Again my intention was not to offend you snap! so I hope you will look at this a bit differently ! <S>
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Shreck.....i think what you dont get is that snap will never consider having his name in lights or on the front page as 'success' in this game.
maybe im an old 'hatter' :p
:salute
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Shreck,
you and I have never had cross words and your always a great fight. I was and am simply trying to suggest an alternative arena that doesnt force "all the little things". I wasnt in anyway attempting to call you or anyone else who can and does adjust to the current realities "lame". What I was commenting on is that I do think that you (and and a lot of others) have had your approach to the game altered by "the system". I know your not a toolshedder or a score monkey...but I think you are effected by the system itself. I finished you off once over the weekend, you were in a hog and being ganged...now I'd been ganged back by the carrier and was going back out and swooped you to avoid having you behind me. So here we were, both fighting the red in a sea of green...but going out to fight while alot of our countrymen stayed in the safety of numbers. Literally half the sector was a gang one way while the other half was reversed. Thats what I'm trying to "fix"...
But trust me no offense was intended in my comments I have nothing but respect for you as a player/person. It's the way a lot of guys like you have evolved as a response TO the game :salute
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WELL in that case, how about a ladder arena where the best can be revealed and challenged!! An ongoing revolving ladder tournament that brings out the best, with dissimilar planes if desired, gentlemens rules and above all NO HOing :rock
:salute
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its not always about winning or proving who is best ya know..
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HTC has already said he won't add an arena for fighters only, or one for land grabbers only. So that leads us back to adjusting play. Some of us don't care about points, or our name in lights, but if we use that to lead the "quake" style players to fly a sim instead of playing quake. Is there anoter way other than adjusting scoring to lead "gamers" that way?
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I still enjoy the game but have lost some of the compulsion to play it for hours. I think the truth is that it is NOT anything wrong with the game as much as I have just gotten older. Yes AW was amazing but my learning curve was sooo steep and everyday i felt i was improving. (kind of like everquest in the beginning....but once you got thru the first 20 levels of your character it got boring for me) Unfortunately what you guys are proposing for improvements really wont make much difference...small rule changes wont really present new challenges for anyone.
Once we take our rose colored glasses off..AH is a much better game then AW was. I remember getting gangbanged especially towards the end of it. The graphics were not as good and the problem with 1v1's is that sometimes it was awesome...but there were always guys in FWs who would b-n-z you and run...basically the 1-v1's were much like going to the DA and asking who wanted to fight...gentlemanly but by no means spontaneous. Yes there was more "testing" yourself and achieving ACM goals....but most of us were "newbs" and needed those challenges. Nowadays I'm good enough that I could care less who may be a tad better...
I still fly a good amount because it relaxes me and i enjoy my squadmates...but their banter makes me smile much more then any fight I typically have.... :salute
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HTC has already said he won't add an arena for fighters only, or one for land grabbers only. So that leads us back to adjusting play. Some of us don't care about points, or our name in lights, but if we use that to lead the "quake" style players to fly a sim instead of playing quake. Is there anoter way other than adjusting scoring to lead "gamers" that way?
Why should the gamers be led anywhere?
What makes there style of play any less valid than yours?
As you are fond of saying on the ENY / arena caps threads - You are the one limiting yourself. (there is so much more than one style of play)
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Why should the gamers be led anywhere?
What makes there style of play any less valid than yours?
As you are fond of saying on the ENY / arena caps threads - You are the one limiting yourself. (there is so much more than one style of play)
The "gamers" are after points, and to "win the game" were as the "old cartel" is after the "sim" aspect of fighting. I suggest that by changing the scoring system to lead the gamers toward a more simmers style of play. The gamers will still have their game, their points, and their "win the war" objective. By changing the scoring they just have to go about it differently to get there.
I still like this game....I still fly this game...unlike some who just troll the boards. Whats wrong with taking some of the "game the game" aspects out of the game. People can't be trusted to "work" for their goal any longer, too many look for the easy way out, cut corners. In the end, all they did was cheat there way to the top.
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It seems to me that there is an underlying desire to be recognised by some measurable statistic in this thread, many of the comments have had to do with, " player A should recieve more credit for landing kills in plane B as opposed to player B landing kills in plane A" and " do you think player P should be in the top 5 in score for the the lame flying he does--> toolshedding, etc. " Although --> NO-ONE <-- will admit that they truely want to be recognised and their achievements realistically hilighted for all to see , it is so clear that this IS the case. The " score doesn't matter" EGO is soooo transparent and false I am literaly laughing outloud! There is nothing wrong with wanting to be recognised and celebrated for ones abilities, so please be honest about it and lets find a way to make scoring less gamey so those who truely excell in certain categories can be recognised for it!
Please read thru this thread again, you will find my statement to be true. If some sort of measure was truely not importent, then the style of play by others would NOT even be mentioned!! "because it would be insignificant"---> get it ? There is definitely underlying deception and psychology goin on here!!
New arenas is not what is wanted by those in this thread!! A new way to legitimately SCORE folks, taking into consideration--> plane quality, threat level, current state of advantage or disadvantage, type of guns on and on etc. is what they want!! so please admit the desire to be recognised in a realistic scoring system. The EGO of "score doesn't matter" attitude is getting in the way of constructive dialogue ;)
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its not always about winning or proving who is best ya know..
absolutely! Although the underlying tone in this thread is all to clear! :aok
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I will reply here if you dont mind shreck..
It seems to me that there is an underlying desire to be recognised by some measurable statistic in this thread, many of the comments have had to do with, " player A should recieve more credit for landing kills in plane B as opposed to player B landing kills in plane A" and " do you think player P should be in the top 5 in score for the the lame flying he does--> toolshedding, etc. " Although --> NO-ONE <-- will admit that they truely want to be recognised and their achievements realistically hilighted for all to see , it is so clear that this IS the case.
You may well be correct, that everyone wants to be recognised for what they are proud of. What i think you are mistaking is just exactly what some people are proud of themselves for and want others to notice. For me it would be flying stupid and pulling off the odd moment of ACM inovation that tricks my enemy. For SHawk it is managing flying to obtain a decent rank. For Humble it would be recognised for flying the A20 as a fighter. For yourself it may well be the 'name in lights' you speak of or something else.
But trust me, if, as you state, 'everyone wants to have name in lights' do you really think most of us could NOT manipulate a score card to be ranked number one? Take a closer look sir, and try to define what it is that someone like Humble is proud of himself for, it is not now and never will be his score card.
The " score doesn't matter" EGO is soooo transparent and false I am literaly laughing outloud! There is nothing wrong with wanting to be recognised and celebrated for ones abilities, so please be honest about it and lets find a way to make scoring less gamey so those who truely excell in certain categories can be recognised for it!
See above answer, I am afraid you are just wrong here. The top echelon of 'skill' here IS celebrated in the DA, in the TA or in the individual encouters we all have with others. Certainly it is not celebrated in the score card. If you truly think the 'score doesnt matter ego' is false and secretly everyone wants to be ranked number 1 then you are truly misguided and ignorant of most of our intentions.
Please read thru this thread again, you will find my statement to be true. If some sort of measure was truely not importent, then the style of play by others would NOT even be mentioned!! "because it would be insignificant"---> get it ? There is definitely underlying deception and psychology goin on here!!
New arenas is not what is wanted by those in this thread!! A new way to legitimately SCORE folks, taking into consideration--> plane quality, threat level, current state of advantage or disadvantage, type of guns on and on etc. is what they want!! so please admit the desire to be recognised in a realistic scoring system. The EGO of "score doesn't matter" attitude is getting in the way of constructive dialogue ;)
What is so wrong with asking dfor a score system that actualy proove some skill rather than the current incarnation which does not?
food for thought, maybe.
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Anyone can manipulate score!! I choose not to, I agree with you all the way mechanic, I think we are looking at same thing thru different windows!
Now as far as being unaffected by score, can you please tell me why " if recognition doesn't matter, then why is there mention of pacerr and his antics ? <---- should be a moot point if we really are unconcerned of how we measure up against others!! more food for thought!
I'm honestly not trolling, but there are many inconsistancies goin on here :aok
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What is so wrong with asking dfor a score system that actualy proove some skill rather than the current incarnation which does not?
food for thought, maybe.
I believe this is my point!!
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ok so the pacerr example is not really applicable to someone like Humble. As a squadmate of many years now i have found snaphook to be one of the guys least likely to speak badly of another person due to their game ethics, he really couldnt care less about how Pacerr plays the game.
When i duel snaphook he is always telling me how much better i am doing than him, never commenting on my many mistakes, plus usualy damning his own performance from every angle. This is typical of the man, when in reality his experience and skill in this type of game overshadows mine by a factor of at least two times.
You are right we may be closer to each others opinion than we think, but one thing i remain steadfast about is the intention for this thread. It was never about making 'name in lights' more in reach to humble, just a suggestion to improve the value of the current rank system.
S!
bat
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ok so the pacerr example is not really applicable to someone like Humble. As a squadmate of many years now i have found snaphook to be one of the guys least likely to speak badly of another person due to their game ethics, he really couldnt care less about how Pacerr plays the game.
When i duel snaphook he is always telling me how much better i am doing than him, never commenting on my many mistakes, plus usualy damning his own performance from every angle. This is typical of the man, when in reality his experience and skill in this type of game overshadows mine by a factor of at least two times.
You are right we may be closer to each others opinion than we think, but one thing i remain steadfast about is the intention for this thread. It was never about making 'name in lights' more in reach to humble, just a suggestion to improve the value of the current rank system.
S!
bat
I also agree snap could care less about " name in lights" But improving the current scoring system could recognize snap for pwning most everyone with an A20, could it not ?
Ahh I think our mutual desires here are the same!!
Oh and BTW, name in lights is merely an added poke in the ribs for me when I successfully spank the horde and am able to land!! :rock
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I think you are being too cynical to say the main purpose of this thread was a personal attempt to get his rank up a few notches
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I think you are being too cynical to say the main purpose of this thread was a personal attempt to get his rank up a few notches
NO, I think that he's probably sick of seeing folks like pacerr at #1 when they obviously are NOT !
My comments are not really directed at snap, they are more directed at the "score doesn't matter but look at how lame so and so is" crowd!!
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I think you are being too cynical to say the main purpose of this thread was a personal attempt to get his rank up a few notches
Not so sure I actually said this.
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Pacerr only came up since he was ranked #1 when i looked (overall). In looking at his "stats" I saw he had a tremendous # of kills in the tempest so he's clearly manipulating his "score". Now if I recall he had 55 kills in a firefly vs 5 deaths so I could have also said he was spawn camping etc. I then looked thru (actually a lot of very good sticks do have excellent fighter scores) and saw greebo with 100% fighter sorties all in a F6F and simply commented that in my mind he was probably the true current "#1" {no disrespect intended to other worthy contenders}.
As for me, I've never considered myself anything above a "2nd tier" stick. I'm certainly good but far from uber. I think Brook said it best long ago "above the unwashed masses and below the gods" if I recall his intro in the old AW tutorial he wrote (a very good and still valid writeup BTW). I fly the A-20 because I enjoy it and it plays to my strengths {sound tactics, good middle game ACM, "3D" flying style} and offsets some of my weaknesses {poor gunnery, marginal touch at high AoA}. I've never been a great dueler or a MA killing machine or had a lot of interest in exploiting a superior plane. I prefer undefined encounters to the set piece dueling "DA" approach since judgement and tactics effect the outcome more IMO.
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Pacerr only came up since he was ranked #1 when i looked (overall). In looking at his "stats" I saw he had a tremendous # of kills in the tempest so he's clearly manipulating his "score". Now if I recall he had 55 kills in a firefly vs 5 deaths so I could have also said he was spawn camping etc. I then looked thru (actually a lot of very good sticks do have excellent fighter scores) and saw greebo with 100% fighter sorties all in a F6F and simply commented that in my mind he was probably the true current "#1" {no disrespect intended to other worthy contenders}.
As for me, I've never considered myself anything above a "2nd tier" stick. I'm certainly good but far from uber. I think Brook said it best long ago "above the unwashed masses and below the gods" if I recall his intro in the old AW tutorial he wrote (a very good and still valid writeup BTW). I fly the A-20 because I enjoy it and it plays to my strengths {sound tactics, good middle game ACM, "3D" flying style} and offsets some of my weaknesses {poor gunnery, marginal touch at high AoA}. I've never been a great dueler or a MA killing machine or had a lot of interest in exploiting a superior plane. I prefer undefined encounters to the set piece dueling "DA" approach since judgement and tactics effect the outcome more IMO.
I also agree the variables in the MA far out challenge those set forth in the steril environement of the DA! It is the unknown and unexpected that is truely a challenge :aok The DA has its place, but it is very predictable, and whoever performs the most efficient immel. over and over has a great advantage! rather boring at times!! I find myself complaining about being ganged now and then! Honestly I don't think I'd have it any other way though :) so I should just STHU :D <S>
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A couple tours ago I decided to see if I could get a good rank, and finished in the top 10. It wasn't so difficult to do in terms of technique, but it requires a laundry list of chores.
The biggest adjustment I had to make was capturing fields. Normally, I could give a rats rear about base capture, but you have to do it if you want a good rank. Now, let's be clear, that base capture is required for a high rank has huge implications for how people will play the game. To my mind, it has a negative impact.
Another adjustment you have to make is for bombing sorties. You don't bomb when there's much of a chance that you might get shot down, that's terrible for your damage/death score. Surprisingly, I think this has positive implications for gameplay if people wish to chase rank, provided that something is done to make the strats meaningful. Otherwise they should be removed from the game.
Lastly, to get a good fighter score we all know it helps a lot to fly where there are friendlies nearby, and where the enemy is at a disadvantage. Base defense is a no-no. Ironically, to get a good fighter rank I had to make the adjustment to die more. Landing too many sorties is bad for kills/time, so if I could get an extra kill here or there by going suicidal it was the right move now and then. Now think about that one for its consequences on gameplay. ;)
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Anyone else consider the possibility that many of us are bored because we've been playing the same core game for almost a decade?
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so long as there is one person willing to fight all we need is the flight sim venue, thats my opinion. why add complex game mechanics to something that only needs the raw physics and some eye candy to be perfect?
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Okay,
Vulching your second account IS manipulating your score and cheating the system.
If one were to actually do nothing but vulch, I guess that might also fall into the same category, although I doubt there are enough vulches going on continuously to gather in many kills or keep the k/t stat from slipping.
Flying X plane, even if its an uber ENY 5 plane (which everyone can fly if they choose), even it is a perk plane (which everyone is free to do if they can earn the perks) and following whatever rules of engagement are so frowned upon IS NOT cheating or "gaming the game". If a player wants to fly a Stuka at 1,000 feet AGL into large crowds of red for fun and because they are disinterested in score, that is great. Good for you. But then we have wailing and gnashing of teeth by everyone "disinterested in score" because the guys on the front page are purportedly committing some great wickedness and crime against the game.
One, methinks thou protests too much. Two, I challenge anyone to match the numbers a guy like Steve or Shawk puts up, with any plane flown in any manner you wish. I know I can't do it, so the odd result is me actually not giving a damn about score. (I like to commit abit of aerial murder and get clean away with the dirty deed, but its not like I'm going to win #1 in fighters, I"ll not give a flip for score until I start getting paid commission on my kills.)
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The problem with score potatos like pacerr is that you have a whole arena with that mentality. That's where it interferes with those wanting something a little more pure.
Check out the SEA 2 arena tonight.
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Anyone else consider the possibility that many of us are bored because we've been playing the same core game for almost a decade?
Beat me to it.
Big reason the game is so fantastic at first is that it's all NEW to the player. Credit Dale and Pyro for designing a game that can keep us involved for years (when most games get stale after weeks) -- but don't be surprised that game doesn't feel the same after a decade of playing. Odds are the design isn't the problem...just our familiarity with it.
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You guys are missing the point... scores where only brought up in this thread as a tool to change how people play. I, as well as most of the "simmers" would love to see the scores and points go away. This would leave only the people who wish to fly and fight for the sake of the fight only!!! But HTC has said scores are here to stay, so I suggest we use them. Set them so they reward better flying, and fighting, and bombing and GVing. Set them up so that you only excel on the score board by excelling at the game, not by excelling at "gaming the game". In this way you create better players, which in the long run creates a better game.
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You guys are missing the point... scores where only brought up in this thread as a tool to change how people play. I, as well as most of the "simmers" would love to see the scores and points go away. This would leave only the people who wish to fly and fight for the sake of the fight only!!! But HTC has said scores are here to stay, so I suggest we use them. Set them so they reward better flying, and fighting, and bombing and GVing. Set them up so that you only excel on the score board by excelling at the game, not by excelling at "gaming the game". In this way you create better players, which in the long run creates a better game.
Not sure how many people actually play for score.
Yeah, yeah, I know...there are a long list of people who play for score....but we know the names because they're obvious, always popping up in the text buffer or the score list.
On the other hand, I think most people who play are shooting for one thing -- they want to feel like they've succeeded, in whatever way they interpret success. I remember when success was just landing, and when success was landing a couple kills. Then success meant diving into a fight and coming out alive. And so on.
But what drove me was doing something and feeling I did something right. Since the game has such a long learning curve, and since crowded arenas mean that if you make a mistake SOMEONE will make you pay, the drive for success means playing conservatively.
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The problem with score potatos like pacerr is that you have a whole arena with that mentality. That's where it interferes with those wanting something a little more pure.
Check out the SEA 2 arena tonight.
I've been around Pacerr in the air. I don't remember him cursing a blue streak or ranting on range, trying to be an armchair general on text, or stealing any kills from me, etc. If I remember correctly, he even gave me a check and cleared me once. Admittedly that is only a small amount of time to go on. I don't know whether or not he is an bellybutton on 200, since I do not read it. So what is so horrible about the guy?
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nothing, pacerr is a decent guy. People heckle him for his score whoring
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I've been around Pacerr in the air. I don't remember him cursing a blue streak or ranting on range, trying to be an armchair general on text, or stealing any kills from me, etc. If I remember correctly, he even gave me a check and cleared me once. Admittedly that is only a small amount of time to go on. I don't know whether or not he is an bellybutton on 200, since I do not read it. So what is so horrible about the guy?
Again, my comments on pacerr were simply in response to his status at the top of the rankings. My "issues" arent with him, simply with a system that forces certain behavors to score well while penalizing others.
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Again, my comments on pacerr were simply in response to his status at the top of the rankings. My "issues" arent with him, simply with a system that forces certain behavors to score well while penalizing others.
You are not going to find a fix to the scoring system that encourages people to fly, I dunno, A-20s, into large seas of Spits, N1Ks, and La's. There is really no way to engineer the system to give extra points for "He shot down 3 in a 9v1!!!" situations. So continue to film and post and reap that which is worth 10,000 perks-bragging rights. :D
From my perspective, the fact that Anax got a better score by flying, er, "stupider", means the system is already encouraging people to fly like idiots if they are after score. Which I don't think most of them are.
I mean, does anyone ever consider the fact that the guy bugging out is NOT interested in score? Perhaps he just doesn't want to give the other bastard the satisfaction. :devil
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Again my comments are not specific to my "rank", standing or individual choices. They are an observation about fundamental shifts in how the game is played. When I started in AW it to had a "score system" and some of the same issues existed. My original handle "humble" comes from the fact that I sucked so badly in the old AW "baby seal" arena it took me over 100 flights to even hit anything :furious :noid :O :pray :cry..
It probably took me a year to get "good" and then another 6 months of polish before I went "score"...then a few months to refine things. I ended up giving up the great fights in the VOD to only patrol the big pond. At that moment for a brief window I was the best sushi chef in the game (in my little world of RR#2). I carved up whole squads en masse. By the end of a week I had something like 4 times the points of the closest guy to me...and was bored to tears. I actually "quit" RR and moved to FR. My 1st flight I was "Joe badass" right up till I blacked out and augered on my 1st merge. I spent the rest of the month getting waxed and learning all over and it took me months to even get a hand firmly on the bottom rung of the ladder again.
More importantly I learned "the code" and came to understand that score was measured in conduct, respect for the game and artistry in the individual encounter. Your true "score" was given to you by those you fought, not tallied by who you killed without consideration of the circumstances.
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From my perspective, the fact that Anax got a better score by flying, er, "stupider", means the system is already encouraging people to fly like idiots if they are after score. Which I don't think most of them are.
Dying more was the adjustment I had to make to rank higher. I have pretty good SA and enjoy landing, so I land often and have a high K/D ratio, but a low K/T score. Someone else might have to make the opposite adjustment to get a high rank. If they get 2-4 kills in furballs but die nearly every time, they will rank well but will never be in the top ten unless they make the adjustment to fly "smarter." Getting a high fighter rank requires balance across all of the categories. Excelling too much in some usually means doing poorly in another.
As for your comment about the guy bugging out, I agree completely. There's a lot of people who fly very safely but who have a low fighter rank as a consequence. If they wanted a high rank (and they understand how score works) you would see them take more risks.
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Well, I guess I just don't understand what is so "broken" about the AH MA. Seems to me you can usually go up into the sky, find planes to shoot, and planes trying to shoot you. Except for the fact that Spits are crossing swords with Mustangs and the like, otherwise the dynamics and tactics IMO seem to resemble those of the great WWII air melees I've read about.
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i agree with BnZ, bugging out does not equate playing for score. You sometimes just dont want to die yet or dont think the gang deserves the pick yet or whatever. The game is fine, people will always go about things in a competetive and individual manner, how much more realism could you get than 1000+ different virtual fighter pilots to choose from? Snaps score idea would still work better if tested and refined.
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I mean, does anyone ever consider the fact that the guy bugging out is NOT interested in score? Perhaps he just doesn't want to give the other bastard the satisfaction. :devil
Very observent! :aok
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Although, I will admit it WOULD seem a bit fairer if 20 kills in a P-40 did more for your score than 20 kills in an Spit16. But the ENY numbers would have to revised abit. Some of the planes with really high ENY are dynamite fighters. Whereas the 152 and Jug N, good yes, but not ENY 5 good IMHO.
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Although, I will admit it WOULD seem a bit fairer if 20 kills in a P-40 did more for your score than 20 kills in an Spit16. But the ENY numbers would have to revised abit. Some of the planes with really high ENY are dynamite fighters. Whereas the 152 and Jug N, good yes, but not ENY 5 good IMHO.
I don't think the HTC staff play the game enough to realize the ENY values need adjustment. Flame away, but I'm sure the arena dynamics have changed a lot over the years.
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I don't think the HTC staff play the game enough to realize the ENY values need adjustment. Flame away, but I'm sure the arena dynamics have changed a lot over the years.
ENY values are all over the place for one reason, and one reason only -
They are now used for ENY limiting, something they weren't intended for in the first place!!!
I remember the good old days prior to ENY limits were very few planes were in single digits, look at them now.
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ENY should be limited to arena ! As it in early war and mid war, The late war arena should have only late war planes, mid war only mid war rides, and early war---> early war rides!! This would fix the ganging by uber plane issues! If you like mid war rides-----> go there, etc. :aok
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Humble,
I haven't been around as long as you, but I agree with your sentiments.
I've found that the best fun to be had is when you can find a group with which to fight that has your mentality.
Two examples: one night after FSO, we had about 6 squaddies on. We went to Mid-war and split sides, and then proceeded to dogfight each other for about 2 hours. It was just about the most fun I've had in this game because there was really great fighting, and obviously none of us was really sweating score or name in lights or anything else.
second example: last night. I had a few good fights actually in mid-war. I found some dude in a 190A5 while I was in my A-20. I didn't recognize his name, but he probably wasn't that great because our fight went on several turns. A good ole 1v1 with someone and it went on for about 3-5 minutes. But, the real fun was when I figured out which base Corkyjr, Soulyss and those guys were at. Once I figured out where they were hanging, I kept going back for more. Sure I got shot down, but the point was the fight, not the victory.
Point is, I think your idea has merit because you can find alot of fun when you know where folks are that share your mindset with respect to having fun in the game. That's not to say that landing kills, getting WTG's and having a good K/D doesn't feel good...but then again, I only have so long to play this game in a day/week/month, and who really cares about my score anyway? I'd rather find like-minded folks to dogfight every night.
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My 2 cents:
The best and perhaps only way "vets" can try to keep the game alive as they remember it is to keep to the old ways and share this with other players. I do this in my own imperfect way. If a guy HO's me on the first merge, I'll usually say something on 200. My favorite is: "HO DENIED, player xxxxx is in the tower." hehehehe. If I see a 1v1 I'll ask my teammate if they want help before I join. If I see 3 or 4 guys chasing down some poor bad guy, I'll tease them with something like: " Hey there's only 4 of you guys on that guy, are you sure you don't need help?"
Picking/getting picked has almost always been part of the game, if perhaps to a lesser degree. The truth is, most of us don't like getting picked when we are in the midst of a good fight and we sometimes vent about it. I understand this, I even whine about it if I get ganged. It's part of the game. Everyone picks at one time or another. A furball is a pick fest, if one is to be honest. You certainly don't have 20 guys from each team engaged in 20 1V1's all in the same area. To whine about getting picked in a furball is just plain foolish.
The "vets" need to keep plugging away at newer people and explain to them that things like bombing-and-bailing or Hoing at the first merge is poor game play(with some exceptions). We cannot expect newer people to come in the game and know the more's of our community. Teach, teach, teach.
The ranking system isn't awful, in it's current incarnation, IMHO. I'd tweak it in a couple of places to be honest. I'll admit this new phenominon of landing kills in the DA is not good for that arena, IMHO. I think they should do away with the "landed kills" message in the DA.
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What I've found is kind of like a double edged sword, I find that if I stay high enough then usually I'll get a good fight (win or die, still get a good fight), sometimes I'll get a runner which might be a 2 sector chase and then I'll just stop chasing after a scetor or so as it's just not worth the hassle, The other side of the coin is that you can get lonely up high around 18-22k and it's hard to find a fight.
The other side is when you get below the magic number of 10k, that's when you enter gang city, sure, you'll find fights real fast but you'll end up with the usual assortment of lgays, 16's and all the rest just waiting to pounce and run you down, ho's are the norm below this alt and so I do my best to try and stay above that number but the action is mostly below it, There's only so many ho's you can avoid before being nailed or ganged.
You guys know what I mean, there you are down low on a one v one and then the horde arrive to fight each other over the pickings, it's times like that I wish killshooter was off as you could probably rack up a fair few proxies alone as they all get in each others way for the spoils.... :)
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For those who where in War Birds when HT was there, then you can admit that the Main Arena Being set in a "Rolling Plane Set" and the "Instant Action" arenas had their advantages.
It seperated the gamers from the Sim Flyers, and everyone was happy on both ends.
For those that dont know I will explain briefly.
Rolling Plane Set.. IE the MA for lack of a better term, was the arena where each month rotated European and Pacific maps. The month featured acft appropriate to that theatre with the first week being 1939/1940 Second week being 40/41 third 42/43 fourth being 44/45. Granted it was 9 years ago but that was the jest of it.
The Instant action map was basically a map like Tank Town but similar in size to 1/4th of the map we see today.
And of course we had SA's similar to FSO's and such each week. But there the community was much smaller, much older, much more involved with the designers and where pretty much to the last drop SIM enthusiast with a strong passion for WWII aircraft and history.
HT has taken that concept, put marketting and target audience as it relates to $$ into the mix and found what they believe to be a balance.
But I agree, it is terribly frustrating to fly from the SIM perspective and look to inject historical ACM and a strong will to get it home in one piece, when there are tons of squeakers out there who simply are suiciding it in on every target they see simply for the instant thrill that console gaming has brainwashed them into thinking is "good" gamemenship.
Ok, Im rambling now.
The main difference IMHO, is people who could afford to pay by the hour (Early War Birds), brought a higher appreciation and commitment to the experience than what you can expect to get for $15 a month. But HT cant pay his bills with that small of a community. The squeakers pay the bills. It is just that simple.
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You know, the thing is this: Back maybe 6 months ago, the AvA was exactly what Humble describes (if I am interpreting your post correctly). Yet, the numbers were always low. Why?
AvA 'had' a nicely matched 'rolling' planeset, new/different/nicer terrains, uncapturable fields, no bombers or nobody flying bombers, respectable players, and good fights. In fact, all that was missing was more players.
So, you all HAD this arena, and you didn't use it. Why? Why not use that arena when it was there to have these 'elite' fights?
I just wonder if this is a true 'it used to be better' or if this is a 'I'm not having fun' post. Because I think you had what you wanted, but didn't know you wanted it. Or you didn't want it then.
And, for that matter, I rarely see more than 5 players on in the AvA now on a given night. So, in fact, it's still there and I'll bet you could get some good fights in there without setting up another arena.
Not trying to be argumentative, more just thinking out loud. I find myself bored to tears in AH2 anymore. I'm finding some nice fights in MW the last few nights, but it takes some time to get em, and some work on 200.
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For those who where in War Birds when HT was there, then you can admit that the Main Arena Being set in a "Rolling Plane Set" and the "Instant Action" arenas had their advantages.
It seperated the gamers from the Sim Flyers, and everyone was happy on both ends.
For those that dont know I will explain briefly.
Rolling Plane Set.. IE the MA for lack of a better term, was the arena where each month rotated European and Pacific maps. The month featured acft appropriate to that theatre with the first week being 1939/1940 Second week being 40/41 third 42/43 fourth being 44/45. Granted it was 9 years ago but that was the jest of it.
Glad to see another former Warbirds pilot who actually liked the RPS. :aok Watch out! Around here the RPS is reviled, and people insist that no one likes it once it's implemented. :P
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You know, the thing is this: Back maybe 6 months ago, the AvA was exactly what Humble describes (if I am interpreting your post correctly). Yet, the numbers were always low. Why?
AvA 'had' a nicely matched 'rolling' planeset, new/different/nicer terrains, uncapturable fields, no bombers or nobody flying bombers, respectable players, and good fights. In fact, all that was missing was more players.
So, you all HAD this arena, and you didn't use it. Why? Why not use that arena when it was there to have these 'elite' fights?
I just wonder if this is a true 'it used to be better' or if this is a 'I'm not having fun' post. Because I think you had what you wanted, but didn't know you wanted it. Or you didn't want it then.
And, for that matter, I rarely see more than 5 players on in the AvA now on a given night. So, in fact, it's still there and I'll bet you could get some good fights in there without setting up another arena.
Not trying to be argumentative, more just thinking out loud. I find myself bored to tears in AH2 anymore. I'm finding some nice fights in MW the last few nights, but it takes some time to get em, and some work on 200.
I did not read all 4 pages, but Steve's reply above, Hajo's reply on 1st page and humbles 1st 2 or 3 post are all correct.......
and toonces, humble, as well as Steve, Shane, ManeTMP, NathBDP, Leviathan, citabrai/Fester, m00t, Widewing, Big Max, Grimlen, wotan, me ( TC ), Stang, Flyboy, Murdr, AKAK, octavious, REDD.....you get the picture by now I hope, we all played in the old CT now called AvsA arena and have played there under that arena's both names..we all enjoyed those fights, but those fights even at theose times were sit and wait for people to log on, people who want what humble is looking for, or people like the DFC ( Dog Fighters Club ), are people who are here for Quality fights, fought with proper ACM tactics, and could give not 1 poop about rank, score, ego, who won or loss.......we care about that adrenaline rush , the sweaty palms fight /fly to survive experience
for those that want help, all you got to do is ASK, many old timer great sticks are here willing to show you the ropes, and if you really want to be the best, just enroll in the 'coming soon" Aces High Fighter Training Academy........and go thru the whole thing ( all levels ) if you think you got the willpower a per serverance to see it thru and graduate....
and in closing I got to go send an email to help a fellow AH PLayer with some training he requested when I was down sick last week...
btw.....noone hurt my toes, I wear steel toe boots :D
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You an SH-60 bubba TC? I used to fly Orions out of Jax when I was with VP-30.
.hijack=off
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You an SH-60 bubba TC? I used to fly Orions out of Jax when I was with VP-30.
.hijack=off
nah an old S3A viking nose picker here.......they decomissioned our squad may of last year, but they still flying a few of them S3B viking versions around here for a lil while longer ...... I was last stationed out of Cecilfield back in the 80's......Good Times Good Times :salute
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nah an old S3A viking nose picker here.......they decomissioned our squad may of last year, but they still flying a few of them S3B viking versions around here for a lil while longer ...... I was last stationed out of Cecilfield back in the 80's......Good Times Good Times :salute
I have a high school buddy who flew off carriers in the late 80's... vikings I think.
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(note: I am not playing the game currently for lack of proper "equipment")
In my eyes, the gameplay started to deteriorate when the game became too diverse and lost its focus. It now spans 6 years in equipment - these are wartime years, so similar to dog years it is more like 42 normal years. Instead of total focus on fighters/attackers, it now features bomber formations and tanks. There are also scores that are a technicality - meaning, you can adapt and refine a score orientated play style, that has little to do with the rest of what is going on in the arena - high score does not mean you are a very good <insert category> or even that you "helped your country" in any way. It is just a score that means you know how to score.
None of the above is bad. However, all of it together means that this game looses it defining character. A "game for all" sounds really good in theory, but I don't believe so in practice. The reality is that it also requires much compromise. A wide base community looses its individuals overlap of interests and in the arena, people have harder time finding their likes in the crowd.
Splitting into several arenas with different rule sets will not cut it as experiments show. There is a population instability problem - populated arenas attract more people which just makes them even more populated. There are critical numbers that need to be maintained in order for an arena to be fun. People would rather log into the populated arena and play a rule set less to their liking (but it is not like they hate the other arena) than log into their favorite one and wait for someone else to log in so they have someone to play with.
The "old" guys liked the old game - it was clearly about fighters and dogfights. Bombers and GV were a minor sideshow. Without scores, the only focus was on the quality of dogfights. Even landgrab was more of an excuse to start a furball and attract enemy fighters - often a squadron attacking a base would face another squadron coming to defend/win it back. Since the attack was all jabo fighters it would lead to great fights, instead of crashing a lanc formation into a driving GV storming the base. Of course it also means that the game appealed to a MUCH smaller community.
HT's vision of the CT, the way I understand it, could have offered some interesting solution. When you sign up for a specific role (fighter, bomber etc), it would keep you in a coherent frame and match you with your likes. The others are just background. It is a segregation in a way, but in a large community it may not be a bad thing. This however will remain in theory it seems.
I have no clear solution. It seems to me that AH has several games, using the same infrastructure and cyber space colliding into each other. Perhaps the way to make it better is to make a much more drastic split that arena rule sets - make it more like several games: different forums, different feel, different gameplay altogether that would cater to different styles without compromise. Instead of scattering incomplete planset/gv set over the entire war period and fronts, concentrate on a more complete sets of more focused time and place. I doubt HTC would experiment with such a thing.
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With all these quality people and solid opinions it is hard to imagine there is space for all these tards we are discussing...
Perhaps the real problem is not to do with the game at all, perhaps the real problems here is the divide between forum users, or those involved with the on-going community VS those who just play the game and dont get involved with this rubbish. I rekon there to be a good 35% of the AH2 game playing population who have never read this website at all or communicated with people in the game.
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I rekon there to be a good 35% of the AH2 game playing population who have never read this website at all or communicated with people in the game.
I'd say closer to 90% of the player base has never visited the forums.
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I'd say closer to 90% of the player base has never visited the forums.
Umm...go higher. :)
People on the forums don't realize just how much of a minority they are.
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Umm...go higher. :)
People on the forums don't realize just how much of a minority they are.
But.. but... aren't the forums the core game? And that "sim" thing just a free goody, for the sole purpose of instigating BBS fights and providing an online chatroom?
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the % i thought was not forum non-users but people who have never read this website, having found the game through an external link (like myself for the first 6 months), and do not communicate more than a few words a year in the arena.
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and do not communicate more than a few words a year in the arena.
There is something to be said for the man who has nothing to say and can not be induced into saying it.
Yesterday, I got pretty annoyed at an occurrence or two. I guess I could jump on the "the game is going to sh**t bandwagon, but I dunno. One thing I've (seemingly) noticed in the, what, 2 years maybe, I've been here, is that getting a HO/FQ snapshot tossed at you when passing another fighter has gone from 50% to 90%. And some are apparently getting enough practice to get fairly accurate at it.
Fact is though, I can still open up the map, look for a red bar, and find all the enemy planes I can handle (and more!) 90% of the time.
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fine philosophy and most agreeable in squeaker season
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I know it will be a good fight if we make a head on merge and the opponent doesn't open up with his guns. Otherwise I'm already missing a wing from the lucky shot or the dweeb is watching (or not if his SA sucks) in amazement as ACMs land me square on his six for the kill.
The poor fellows who move around in groups of no less than 10 and start spraying at 1000yds at every merge are missing more than 3/4's of what makes this game so good.
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"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat ."
This is my favorite quote, from my favorite President...Teddy Roosevelt...and I believe it encompasses all of the players in Aces High whether they are long term Veterans of early flight sims, or the very Newest player driving his, or her, GV towards the nearest undefended town...this quote applies.
Each of us fights our own fight, in our own way, and HT has given us the medium in which we each may choose how we fight. No map, no arena, no score changes, will ever change an individual's interest in how he, or she, compares himself, or herself against another in Combat.
patches
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I know it will be a good fight if we make a head on merge and the opponent doesn't open up with his guns. Otherwise I'm already missing a wing from the lucky shot or the dweeb is watching (or not if his SA sucks) in amazement as ACMs land me square on his six for the kill.
The poor fellows who move around in groups of no less than 10 and start spraying at 1000yds at every merge are missing more than 3/4's of what makes this game so good.
As I have said before,---> it is almost always the vets who pull off the successful HO shots!! NOOBS have neither the experience or skill to pull it off consistantly,. Lucky at times---> "yes" but it truely is not difficult to avoid a HO from a new guy, The vet is the one who has the fine control and experience to pull off, what they would call a "high deflection shot" that most of us relate as a HO--> LOL. Quite frankly being HOd by noobs has never bothered me, as this is just the natural path of the very steep learning curve of this game! ( high deflection shot)<-------- honestly :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Planes you can expect to get Ho'ed by
190's 98%
Temp
109
I hate 190's because of this and running from 15k to the deck
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As I have said before,---> it is almost always the vets who pull off the successful HO shots!! NOOBS have neither the experience or skill to pull it off consistantly,. Lucky at times---> "yes" but it truely is not difficult to avoid a HO from a new guy, The vet is the one who has the fine control and experience to pull off, what they would call a "high deflection shot" that most of us relate as a HO--> LOL. Quite frankly being HOd by noobs has never bothered me, as this is just the natural path of the very steep learning curve of this game! ( high deflection shot)<-------- honestly :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
If we are past the first clean merge and than they get guns on me thats different and probably is a high deflection crossing shot.
As I've asked before what do you consider a "vet"?
I've never had anyone that I would consider a veteran of the game open up his guns as we approach HO for the first merge. Maybe we need to decide on a definition of "veteran of aces high".
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Planes you can expect to get Ho'ed by
190's 98%
Temp
109
I hate 190's because of this and running from 15k to the deck
I haven't experienced this as a problem from most 109s or 190D9s. A8s....well what do you expect? Typhies too.
The oddest thing is the number of Ponies that will try to HO anything.
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I've never had anyone that I would consider a veteran of the game open up his guns as we approach HO for the first merge. Maybe we need to decide on a definition of "veteran of aces high".
Don't know where you fly, but I have had it done many of times. Many are on this board and claimed to have played since the AW days. I'm not complaining, but I have seen the 51's, 47's, 38's, and not to forget the 109's come in with guns a blazing from 1000 out.
I'm not going to drop names because there is not reason to, but if it happens to me, I know it happens to others.
Now don't get me wrong, I just consider the HO part of the game, but to say the "vets" don't do it,,,,,well I don't know about that. :salute
Another Fred's opinion.
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First, the purpose of this thread was not to take away the current game play but simply to provide another option. We have EWA,MWA,LWA & the AVA. For better or worse the AVA has moved away from its roots and the three "big arena's" all have the same potential issues that crept into the CT.
While the strategic air war raged at 23-32k over both Germany and Japan the vast majority of the fighting was tactical in nature and had fairly static "front lines" when viewed on a day to day basis. To me the vision of tactical aggression we see in FSO is much more appropriate for main arena play. Want to sink a CV scramble some SBD's or heavy fighters...or even single twin engine buffs. Want to take a base or assault a town...same thing. I'm not asking for "you" to change your game...I'd just prefer another option.
As for HO's, everyone does it now and then. I lit up a lala last night. I was in my SBD and all he wanted to do was joust so on the 7th or 8th pass I popped him in the nose.
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Don't know where you fly, but I have had it done many of times. Many are on this board and claimed to have played since the AW days. I'm not complaining, but I have seen the 51's, 47's, 38's, and not to forget the 109's come in with guns a blazing from 1000 out.
I'm not going to drop names because there is not reason to, but if it happens to me, I know it happens to others.
Now don't get me wrong, I just consider the HO part of the game, but to say the "vets" don't do it,,,,,well I don't know about that. :salute
Another Fred's opinion.
Again I think we'd have to understand what we mean by "veteran" of aces high. If you've played 4 years but still couldn't ACM your way out of a wet paper bag...well I wouldn't look to you for advice or direction on how to improve, thats for sure.
I consider someone a "vet" when I've seen them fly with skill, class, and a willingness to help others. It took me less than 3 months to notice the huge gap of skill in this game between those who HO on a first merge and those who don't. I realized that looking to zap someone HO from 800 was never going to allow me to improve beyond either getting lucky or leaving myself vulnerable to an easy reversal.
I'm pretty sure that some are unwilling or too stubborn to realize that.
Anyways, just playing for a few years by no means makes someone a "vet" in my eyes.
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Again I think we'd have to understand what we mean by "veteran" of aces high. If you've played 4 years but still couldn't ACM your way out of a wet paper bag...well I wouldn't look to you for advice or direction on how to improve, thats for sure.
I consider someone a "vet" when I've seen them fly with skill, class, and a willingness to help others. It took me less than 3 months to notice the huge gap of skill in this game between those who HO on a first merge and those who don't. I realized that looking to zap someone HO from 800 was never going to allow me to improve beyond either getting lucky or leaving myself vulnerable to an easy reversal.
I'm pretty sure that some are unwilling or too stubborn to realize that.
Anyways, just playing for a few years by no means makes someone a "vet" in my eyes.
Agree with everything you said. :aok
Fred did it again, another opinion.
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Cool. I guess I never had written out my opinions on the difference between good players and players who have just been around a while.
<S>
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I realize that "back to the future" is impossible but I wonder if small map fighter (and tank) {no ords} only arena is possible. No buffs, no base capture no "score" system. Just a place for the guys who want to actually fight without anything to attract the lesser elements (and yes I'm an elitist snob).
It's my hope / belief that reintroduction of H2H 8-Player (or perhaps a system capable of handling even more players than that) as a subscriber based game feature, coupled with the use of content editors (terrain,mission,etc) will help players who are willing and able to customize smaller, more specialized arenas that better meet their game play needs. At such a time players could invite like minded individuals to their H2H arena and go at it any way they prefer without interruption by "lesser elements." We'll have to wait and see what actually happens, but I think the potential is definitely there for some good things to come to the game via such changes / additions to AH...(you know, in "2 weeks.") ;)
Hack9 :salute