Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rod367th on January 05, 2009, 12:35:47 AM
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or is it normal guys who cry about HO are ones doing it the most, and only cry when they die trying to ho? have film of guy4 to 5 year player whines about ho every day and have film with him hoing 22 times in 10 mins time. grab hurri try ho rinse repeat lol.
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you're getting it rod <S>
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I think the majority of the complaints are from pilots who have no concept of how the collision model works or have no clue how to avoid a ho in the first place and feel helpless. I prefer that the nme tries to ho on the merge (as long as it isn't on the deck) because I never engage on line and a ho is just a terrible acm decision. He's taking a very low percentage shot and is giving me a great deal of advantage. If he hits me, I know he got lucky and 19 out of 20 times he'll miss and die shortly after. :aok
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Hoing is here to stay. I hate it and don't do it unless, I've been hoed by same guy or his buddies a few times then I'll do it. Last week i upped and was getting hoed by these three fellas off a cv. I told them they don't stop I'm gonna up a Niki and ho the watermelon out of them. That didn't work so I upped a Niki. I hoed 2 of them and the third ran like hell. It was freaking funny. I wish I could remember there names so I could look for them again. I will not ho anyone on first merge second merge or tenth merge. I just try to respect the other players. I mean you fly 10-15 min just to have some idiot take a spray a pray shot at ya in a Niki or 110 or whatever.
So if I ho you ingame, its because your flying the same damn plane as the guy who just hoed me twice.
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Hoing is here to stay. I hate it and don't do it unless, I've been hoed by same guy or his buddies a few times then I'll do it. Last week i upped and was getting hoed by these three fellas off a cv. I told them they don't stop I'm gonna up a Niki and ho the watermelon out of them. That didn't work so I upped a Niki. I hoed 2 of them and the third ran like hell. It was freaking funny. I wish I could remember there names so I could look for them again. I will not ho anyone on first merge second merge or tenth merge. I just try to respect the other players. I mean you fly 10-15 min just to have some idiot take a spray a pray shot at ya in a Niki or 110 or whatever.
So if I ho you ingame, its because your flying the same damn plane as the guy who just hoed me twice.
Ho when hoed I like that choker. Yeah dont ho a 110 duh! few squads well enough said no going there. :aok
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or is it normal guys who cry about HO are ones doing it the most, and only cry when they die trying to ho? have film of guy4 to 5 year player whines about ho every day and have film with him hoing 22 times in 10 mins time. grab hurri try ho rinse repeat lol.
how many tours did it take to realise this?
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Many Ho because they have never took the time to learn their plane. They have no idea what its capabilities are. Many start out new and are taken into some squad where kills are more important than the fight. Then they pass along their... "experience" to other new folks. Kind of like a cancer. The only way to help the situation is to donate some time to the TA to help folks move away from bad habits.
I for one will point out anyone that Hos. You never know it might keep someone from waisting their time in the area if they are looking for a good fight.
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I think the majority of the complaints are from pilots who have no concept of how the collision model works or have no clue how to avoid a ho in the first place and feel helpless. I prefer that the nme tries to ho on the merge (as long as it isn't on the deck) because I never engage on line and a ho is just a terrible acm decision. He's taking a very low percentage shot and is giving me a great deal of advantage. If he hits me, I know he got lucky and 19 out of 20 times he'll miss and die shortly after. :aok
HOer always has the advantage. Don't confuse the reasons for killing someone. If you killed someone after a HO it is because you were better and not because of the HO.
I offered to try it in the DA before and no one ever accepts.
Tests with someone better than me showed that the HOer had a small advantage over the guy trying to avoid.
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DONT FALL TO THIER LEVEL, HO is not good ACM, you might get unlucky sometime but just aviod and turn around and own them :salute
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HOer always has the advantage. Don't confuse the reasons for killing someone. If you killed someone after a HO it is because you were better and not because of the HO.
I offered to try it in the DA before and no one ever accepts.
Tests with someone better than me showed that the HOer had a small advantage over the guy trying to avoid.
Well ... in order for that test case to work ... you would have to fly like a 2-6 month noob ... seeing that you don't qualify ... no soup for you !!!
Most who start the HO spray from 1K to 800 out, couldn't find their arse with both hands when it comes to ACM, so yes, they do die within 1 to 2 turns 99% of the time.
There is a very finite amount of pilots that really have good ACM skills, and yes, they can go for the HO and if they miss, they can also end up winning the engagement ... the rest will die the majority of the time.
The next time you run into one of those "types" ... message me and I will go to the DA with him/her (if you can get them to) and prove the point.
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HOer always has the advantage. Don't confuse the reasons for killing someone. If you killed someone after a HO it is because you were better and not because of the HO.
I offered to try it in the DA before and no one ever accepts.
Tests with someone better than me showed that the HOer had a small advantage over the guy trying to avoid.
I'll be happy to test this with you. I kind of see what you're getting at with the "advantage" claim. Let's put it to test.
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I was Ho'd last night and I tried everything to avoid it. I actually was clear of the guy but said hey lets turn and fight. Doh! The only thing I am thinking of right now is what could I have done to prevent it. I have a solution but, I am not going to post here.
I just know that Ho'ing back is not the answer.
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I try to avoid he HO for the most part but once in a while I'll take that shot, even on an opening merge. It totally depends on the plane and E match-up and my mood.
The problem after a HO merge is that you usually come back on the target nose to nose having to avoid or take a second HO shot or forward aspect so I'm not sure it gives the HOer any kind of advantage. I'd rather be turning sooner unless it's just going to be a OPHA shot or if I'm so low on E I have no choice.
I'm by no means elite but if you want to test after 9PM CST I'd be game.
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Ho's happen. I try like heck to avoid them, but they still happen on occasion. Should anyone cry about it? Nah. You get a shiny new plane every time you die. Ain't that cool? :aok
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Ho's happen. I try like heck to avoid them, but they still happen on occasion. Should anyone cry about it? Nah. You get a shiny new plane every time you die. Ain't that cool? :aok
No. I WILL cry about it everytime that I get HO'd in a me on multiple situation. That's just poor form.
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the only thing more annoying than HOing is people who dont know what it is.. LOTS of people think that any frontal shot on the inital merge is a "HO" which is retarded..
case in point, I was in a 38 and a 51 comes towards me.. about 2.0 out he starts a shallow dive under me.. I rolled inverted, dove and and put a burst right across the back of the plane as he passed under me, and took off the vertical stab..
I got PMd "nice HO"
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I'll be happy to test this with you. I kind of see what you're getting at with the "advantage" claim. Let's put it to test.
Sure, I ll try tonight. Last time I tried it was with Bighorn.
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Well ... in order for that test case to work ... you would have to fly like a 2-6 month noob ... seeing that you don't qualify ... no soup for you !!!
Most who start the HO spray from 1K to 800 out, couldn't find their arse with both hands when it comes to ACM, so yes, they do die within 1 to 2 turns 99% of the time.
Isn't that my point also? That guy would have died HO or no HO. The test I did was with Bighorn so plenty of soup for me :P The HOer did not always win (except when it was him :lol ) but there was an advantage to gain from it. Kind of small since we knew what the set up was, but it was there
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No. I WILL cry about it everytime that I get HO'd in a me on multiple situation. That's just poor form.
Not excusing it Bald. As a Spit pilot myself, I avoid all HO's. A single .30 cal can ruin your fun in a hurry. Poor form? Not Sure. However you hold yourself to a much higher standard than some those that you have run up against. This is to be commended.
<Salute>
Way
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HOer always has the advantage. Don't confuse the reasons for killing someone. If you killed someone after a HO it is because you were better and not because of the HO.
In the MA typically the prototypical HO situation I find myself in where I am going to have an advantage is when I dive 2-3k below my enemy and engage off center. The newb will nose down and try to HO at me. I guess the advantage is being gained because his nose is pointed down on the merge and not so much since he is actually "hoing". However, this poor acm decision seems to have a very high correlation with a pilot who likes to Ho. If you have a pilot who knows acm and is a good stick and still decides to HO on a regular basis, :rolleyes: good riddance.
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I’m going to disagree with the notion that the “Hoer” has a natural advantage. When someone is coming in at me trying to mow me down I immediately know that I am going to have the inside track on the first turn. Why? Because the attacker is going to fire all the way through the merge. While he is doing that I am moving off our straight line path and setting up for my turn and when he is around 200 in front of me I’m going to begin my turn while he continues to fire in a relative straight line path. While he is thinking about aiming his guns and killing me, I am in my turntrying get on his 6. The idea here is to make sure that you’re merging with the attacker at a high angle preferably above 40 degrees. This does two things, it brings you out of plane so he won’t have a shot and its setting you up for your turn. Make sure you don’t have a lazy merge or he might get lucky with a fully depressed rudder shot.
Kostic
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I went to KOTH before and fought without the fear of ho shots getting me and really had a great time, understanding that not everyone is of a average skill level I feal that people that have been playing for a bit should get angry on 200 and make them feel bad, it will make them think next time and will end up bringing the fight back to Aces High
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Kostc and Grizz, you guys both assume nubes coming in for the ho. What I am saying is that they are dead any way and it has nothing to do with their HO attempt. Assume equal pilots. Assume you are fighting yourself. Your HOing self :lol will have the advantage.
Kostic, in your example, if that was me coming in and saw you starting an early turn, I would hit the breaks and end up nicely at D200 on your six.
Grizz, 2 or 3K bellow? What makes you think the guy wont just pull up and have all the advantages to himself?
You guys are making way too many assumptions. The main one is that the HOer is also a nube. My argument is that the nube was dead anyway, HO or no HO. Given equal pilots, the HOer gets the advantage.
If you think I am wrong, lets try it instead of wearing down keyboards. According to you, if I try to come in HO at a merge you should both kill me with ease either by diving under me, or by starting an early turn. Not that simple
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or is it normal guys who cry about HO are ones doing it the most, and only cry when they die trying to ho? have film of guy4 to 5 year player whines about ho every day and have film with him hoing 22 times in 10 mins time. grab hurri try ho rinse repeat lol.
Tell him this, you didn't up to only "fight" you upped to shoot down the enemy. So whether it was a good fight or not, if they're dead and you're alive, you came out of it on top.
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Kostc and Grizz, you guys both assume nubes coming in for the ho. What I am saying is that they are dead any way and it has nothing to do with their HO attempt. Assume equal pilots. Assume you are fighting yourself. Your HOing self :lol will have the advantage.
Kostic, in your example, if that was me coming in and saw you starting an early turn, I would hit the breaks and end up nicely at D200 on your six.
Grizz, 2 or 3K bellow? What makes you think the guy wont just pull up and have all the advantages to himself?
You guys are making way too many assumptions. The main one is that the HOer is also a nube. My argument is that the nube was dead anyway, HO or no HO. Given equal pilots, the HOer gets the advantage.
If you think I am wrong, lets try it instead of wearing down keyboards. According to you, if I try to come in HO at a merge you should both kill me with ease either by diving under me, or by starting an early turn. Not that simple
Yeah I agreed with you, read my last post, I said the advantage was probably gained from his nose pointed down, not from the Ho. You are probably correct Ded. I think 99% of the Hoers in the MA are the ones who aren't skilled though or are defending a base in a hurri against a horde which is perfectly acceptable imo.
Oh and as for diving 2-3k below the nme I'm engaging in the MA, I never specified that we had equal E coming in so him pulling straight up wouldn't necessarily give him an advantage, probably would give him a death wish if I followed.
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how many tours did it take to realise this?
since about daY 1
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the only thing more annoying than HOing is people who dont know what it is.. LOTS of people think that any frontal shot on the inital merge is a "HO" which is retarded..
case in point, I was in a 38 and a 51 comes towards me.. about 2.0 out he starts a shallow dive under me.. I rolled inverted, dove and and put a burst right across the back of the plane as he passed under me, and took off the vertical stab..
I got PMd "nice HO"
SOO TRUE MANY HAVE NO CLUE WHAT A SNAP SHOT REALLY IS
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Kostc and Grizz, you guys both assume nubes coming in for the ho. What I am saying is that they are dead any way and it has nothing to do with their HO attempt. Assume equal pilots. Assume you are fighting yourself. Your HOing self :lol will have the advantage.
Kostic, in your example, if that was me coming in and saw you starting an early turn, I would hit the breaks and end up nicely at D200 on your six.
Grizz, 2 or 3K bellow? What makes you think the guy wont just pull up and have all the advantages to himself?
You guys are making way too many assumptions. The main one is that the HOer is also a nube. My argument is that the nube was dead anyway, HO or no HO. Given equal pilots, the HOer gets the advantage.
If you think I am wrong, lets try it instead of wearing down keyboards. According to you, if I try to come in HO at a merge you should both kill me with ease either by diving under me, or by starting an early turn. Not that simple
LOL ITS NOT NEWBIES I SEE GUYS THAT HAVE PLAYED FOR 5 OR MORE YEARS HO 'ING
when they ho responce is were out numbered or i knew you were going to ho or some other BS these are ones that make me laugh newbie hoing doesn't bother me its just guys who when your fighting 3 or 4 of them u got to duck ho after ho. you get 2 or maybe 4 then off base comes hurri st8 in for ho 1 ping fight over. then he'll brag not so tough now i killed number 1 rank it was easy lol
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Isn't that my point also? That guy would have died HO or no HO. The test I did was with Bighorn so plenty of soup for me :P The HOer did not always win (except when it was him :lol ) but there was an advantage to gain from it. Kind of small since we knew what the set up was, but it was there
Sorry .. Epic Fail !!!
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Tell him this, you didn't up to "fight" you upped to shoot down the enemy. So whether it was a good fight or not, if they're dead and you're alive, you came out of it on top.
Fixed
wrongway
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LOL ITS NOT NEWBIES I SEE GUYS THAT HAVE PLAYED FOR 5 OR MORE YEARS HO 'ING
when they ho responce is were out numbered or i knew you were going to ho or some other BS these are ones that make me laugh newbie hoing doesn't bother me its just guys who when your fighting 3 or 4 of them u got to duck ho after ho. you get 2 or maybe 4 then off base comes hurri st8 in for ho 1 ping fight over. then he'll brag not so tough now i killed number 1 rank it was easy lol
If a hurri is defending a base against a horde why wouldn't you Ho? I think that's the one exception where it's perfectly valid. As for the pilots who have been supposedly flying 5 years and Hoing 1v1s still, they probably have 5 years of suckage under their belts.
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dedalos, I'm curious what you're getting at? You seem to delight in taking tactical axioms/rules of thumb and seeking out the exceptions. Which is healthy and really what the better sticks do. But then you follow up by arguing the conventional wisdom is wrong because there are exceptions. Many vet players are probably aware of the exceptions, but that does not change the fact that 95 out of 100 times in a random MA engagment the conventional wisdom/axiom/rule of thumb holds true. I know levithan and blu can make a hot merges vs a HO avoider and have the advantage if they didn't win outright at the merge. That information is really only useful to me if I know that's who I'm merging with. However very few of thousands of players will ever reach the level to read all of the subtle positioning nuances that they base their maneuvering decisions on, let alone pull off the maneuvering. So what is the point you are getting at? Getting players to think out of the box? That's a good point. Or just that there are exceptions to the rules, therefore the rules are invalid? That's nonsense, the exception is 'exceptional' for a reason. Or are you just trolling because for some unfathomable reason there are not enough unskilled players running headlong, guns blazing into every plane they see already?
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One thing I have learned in the MA......If you turn nose on me....Im shooting. I don't care anymore.
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One thing I have learned in the MA......If you turn nose on me....Im shooting. I don't care anymore.
atta boy ... perpetuate and encourage "suckage".
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dedalos, I'm curious what you're getting at? You seem to delight in taking tactical axioms/rules of thumb and seeking out the exceptions. Which is healthy and really what the better sticks do. But then you follow up by arguing the conventional wisdom is wrong because there are exceptions. Many vet players are probably aware of the exceptions, but that does not change the fact that 95 out of 100 times in a random MA engagment the conventional wisdom/axiom/rule of thumb holds true. I know levithan and blu can make a hot merges vs a HO avoider and have the advantage if they didn't win outright at the merge. That information is really only useful to me if I know that's who I'm merging with. However very few of thousands of players will ever reach the level to read all of the subtle positioning nuances that they base their maneuvering decisions on, let alone pull off the maneuvering. So what is the point you are getting at? Getting players to think out of the box? That's a good point. Or just that there are exceptions to the rules, therefore the rules are invalid? That's nonsense, the exception is 'exceptional' for a reason. Or are you just trolling because for some unfathomable reason there are not enough unskilled players running headlong, guns blazing into every plane they see already?
What rules? What is the confusion here? I thought my point was clear. If everything else is equal, the guy going for the head shot at the merge has the advantage over the guy trying to avoid. That is not the exception. I would think a trainer would have the ability to understand why? If you think I am wrong tell me why or lets try it and maybe we both learn something. Why come in here and ask if I am trolling? If you just don;t like what I am saying thats too bad. I told you who was the only one that was willing to give it a try so ask him. Rules :rofl
The guy firing at the merge dictates the fight. You have to break to avoid, leaving him the option of following or extending or climbing for alt. The idea that the guy will continue shooting through the merge and somehow end up at a disadvantage is BS. Thats a nube. He would have messed up any way and not because his guns were firing.
I am saying that the act of HOing by itself will not kill you. If you know what you are doing you actually gain an advantage from it when the other guy is only trying to avoid.
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If ya can avoid the HO...by all means do so....if not, "do unto others before they do unto you" :devil Sadly, all the undesirable actions occurring in this game are now the norm. :(
On second thought...who cares..it's a game. The only reason I spend any time on this BBS/game is because it's too damn cold to go outside and play....c'mon Summer. :pray
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What rules? What is the confusion here? I thought my point was clear. If everything else is equal, the guy going for the head shot at the merge has the advantage over the guy trying to avoid. That is not the exception.
"If everything else is equal" all by itself is an exception. Clearly the OP and everyone else is talking about MA fighting. Slapshot used 99%, I used 95%, regardless of what number is used, it is a very rare occurance in a random engagement in the MA where what you've said applies, therfore the "exception".
The guy firing at the merge dictates the fight.
Where will this guy's plane be pointing at the merge? Within rudder range of the opponent. So the orentation of the merge is going to be based on how the opponent chooses to approach it. At face value that sounds like the opponent has more influence on the shape and axis of the merge than the shooter. We can negate that by limiting the opponents maneuver options with terrain and speed. However in the average MA engagment I almost never find this quote to be the case.
You have to break to avoid, leaving him the option of following or extending or climbing for alt.
I rarely find myself "breaking to avoid" a merge where I have speed, and a few seconds advance notice of the merge in the MA.
I am saying that the act of HOing by itself will not kill you. If you know what you are doing you actually gain an advantage from it when the other guy is only trying to avoid.
If the other guy is trying to avoid it's probably not really a HO. The other guy is off angle and separated, and it's a matter of him crossing inside the shooters best turn circle ahead of his gun solution.
What rules?
Definition: A rule of thumb is an easy-to-remember guideline that isn't necessarily a hard-and-fast rule or scientific formula but it's more than just a dumb guess. For centuries rule of thumb has been used as an estimated measurement by many craftsmen including carpenters, brewers, and tailors. The term referred generally to the length of the thumb from the joint to the tip, approximately an inch.
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"If everything else is equal" all by itself is an exception. Clearly the OP and everyone else is talking about MA fighting. Slapshot used 99%, I used 95%, regardless of what number is used, it is a very rare occurance in a random engagement in the MA where what you've said applies, therfore the "exception".
Where will this guy's plane be pointing at the merge? Within rudder range of the opponent. So the orentation of the merge is going to be based on how the opponent chooses to approach it. At face value that sounds like the opponent has more influence on the shape and axis of the merge than the shooter. We can negate that by limiting the opponents maneuver options with terrain and speed. However in the average MA engagment I almost never find this quote to be the case.
I rarely find myself "breaking to avoid" a merge where I have speed, and a few seconds advance notice of the merge in the MA.
If the other guy is trying to avoid it's probably not really a HO. The other guy is off angle and separated, and it's a matter of him crossing inside the shooters best turn circle ahead of his gun solution.
Lets try it. I still don't like that you came here implying that I am trolling or what ever just because you did not agree with my opinion. You can pick on the words I used all you want. You can interpret 'equal' anyway you want to fit your argument but you know what I meant. Equal skill and no advantages. If that is not the case the number of variables in the equation are way to many to determine what the cause of the outcome of the fight was. By keeping things equal you try to eliminate the randomness and focus on if going for the ho actually gets you killed as easily as every one claims.
Again, since it is too hard to understand, a nube is a nube is a nube. He is dead anyway. The fact that his guns were firing at the merge proves nothing.
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dedalos, I'm curious what you're getting at? You seem to delight in taking tactical axioms/rules of thumb and seeking out the exceptions. Which is healthy and really what the better sticks do. But then you follow up by arguing the conventional wisdom is wrong because there are exceptions. Many vet players are probably aware of the exceptions, but that does not change the fact that 95 out of 100 times in a random MA engagment the conventional wisdom/axiom/rule of thumb holds true. I know levithan and blu can make a hot merges vs a HO avoider and have the advantage if they didn't win outright at the merge. That information is really only useful to me if I know that's who I'm merging with. However very few of thousands of players will ever reach the level to read all of the subtle positioning nuances that they base their maneuvering decisions on, let alone pull off the maneuvering. So what is the point you are getting at? Getting players to think out of the box? That's a good point. Or just that there are exceptions to the rules, therefore the rules are invalid? That's nonsense, the exception is 'exceptional' for a reason. Or are you just trolling because for some unfathomable reason there are not enough unskilled players running headlong, guns blazing into every plane they see already?
and from the "honor, respect, fair play thread,
On the other hand. If I see the majority of my friendlies within visual ganging 1 con low, I will dive in an remove their target without a second thought. I don't care about the kill though I do get it a surprising amount of times. What I do care about is being stuck as the only friendly with any energy when the next wave of higher enemies come in. The sooner the distraction is removed, the better off my tactical situation is :)
color me with contradicting messages? :noid Tactically, staying up as opposed to pigpiling the solo con *is* poor decision - makes more sense to stay up for that incoming wave. You can let them go diving down into the pigpile to help their solo gangee, giving you, as the remaining high con a variety of tactical options.
Before you say, apples and oranges, let's keep it to bananas, meaning you're both encouraging newbies to go against "conventional wisdom," i.e. tactics. Going for the HO and pigpiling one lower con both result in leaving one with a tactically inferior position - despite what both you and dedalos claim, respectively.
When I duel deadlos to test his theory.. i may or may not avoid the HO and instead HO back, making it the usual 50-50 proposition, thereby negating his claim, which only works because both know the deal, and the HOer will be anticipating an avoidance, negating the actual HO shot.
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Many Ho because they have never took the time to learn their plane. They have no idea what its capabilities are. Many start out new and are taken into some squad where kills are more important than the fight. Then they pass along their... "experience" to other new folks. Kind of like a cancer. The only way to help the situation is to donate some time to the TA to help folks move away from bad habits.
I for one will point out anyone that Hos. You never know it might keep someone from waisting their time in the area if they are looking for a good fight.
It's funny that the Typhoon we encountered flying high last night in the MW arena dove on me using a HO merge which was easily avoided. Want to know who was flying the Typhoon? The guy that created this thread, oh the irony...
ack-ack
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When I duel deadlos to test his theory.. i may or may not avoid the HO and instead HO back, making it the usual 50-50 proposition, thereby negating his claim, which only works because both know the deal, and the HOer will be anticipating an avoidance, negating the actual HO shot.
Yep, agreed there. I think I stated that he has an advantage over the guy trying to get out of the way. However, if you don;t know if the guy will fire back or if the guy does fire back it is a completely different story. That should also be the deterrent for engaging like that. In the end it should work out fine. People will realize that going HO results in a collision, damage, or death for both and will try to both avoid that situation. The problem is not the new guys trying to take a HO shot. I don;t think I have ever taken a single ping from them. The problem are the vets that will wait - hold fire - until the last second or until they see you trying to avoid.
You firing back will negate the test, although it should show how stupid it really is to fly straight at several automatic guns lol. All I ever said is that the HOer has an advantage over the guy trying to avoid. I never really said anything about avoiding the situation all together by doing something at 3K out or anything like that. However, if you wait until 1K or closer to dive down or some of the other funny things I have read like barrel roll, ruder something etc, you will be a dead man. Your skill may keep you alive or you may get me but that would not be a result of me pulling the trigger. However, some of the guys that claim they can be on your 6 in 10 seconds if you tried to HO them, would not last 10 seconds.
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Yep, agreed there. I think I stated that he has an advantage over the guy trying to get out of the way. However, if you don;t know if the guy will fire back or if the guy does fire back it is a completely different story. That should also be the deterrent for engaging like that. In the end it should work out fine. People will realize that going HO results in a collision, damage, or death for both and will try to both avoid that situation. The problem is not the new guys trying to take a HO shot. I don;t think I have ever taken a single ping from them. The problem are the vets that will wait - hold fire - until the last second or until they see you trying to avoid.
You firing back will negate the test, although it should show how stupid it really is to fly straight at several automatic guns lol. All I ever said is that the HOer has an advantage over the guy trying to avoid. I never really said anything about avoiding the situation all together by doing something at 3K out or anything like that. However, if you wait until 1K or closer to dive down or some of the other funny things I have read like barrel roll, ruder something etc, you will be a dead man. Your skill may keep you alive or you may get me but that would not be a result of me pulling the trigger. However, some of the guys that claim they can be on your 6 in 10 seconds if you tried to HO them, would not last 10 seconds.
it's really all about timing and weighing the risk of taking/giving ho on the merge.
In a duel situation, when both know no HO is fourthcoming, the merge will often be closer in, around 500yds, and sometimes even tails passing before the 1st move is made in reacting to what the other may be doing.
In the Arenas the 1st move often occurs a bit further out to avoid the aforementioned risk of a HO, but it can be pushed closer in with experience, timing and as often as not some luck.
Committing to the HO leaves one open to a milisecond window of disadvantage *if* they miss as they fly looking back waiting to see the enemy go down. It's the pause of "oh craps, it didn't work, now what?" By the time they even thnk that, if the other guy has a clue, he's already getting angles.
To put an analogy on this: We've all seen vids/pix of a shark attack, right? Notice when going for the actual bite, the sharks eyes kind of roll up? Same thing when going for a HO... pulling the trigger results in that "eyes roll up" as you commit to the shot, fully expecting to achieve the "bite." Failure = still hungry shark or dead Hoer, yanno?
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it's really all about timing and weighing the risk of taking/giving ho on the merge.
In a duel situation, when both know no HO is fourthcoming, the merge will often be closer in, around 500yds, and sometimes even tails passing before the 1st move is made in reacting to what the other may be doing.
In the Arenas the 1st move often occurs a bit further out to avoid the aforementioned risk of a HO, but it can be pushed closer in with experience, timing and as often as not some luck.
Committing to the HO leaves one open to a milisecond window of disadvantage *if* they miss as they fly looking back waiting to see the enemy go down. It's the pause of "oh craps, it didn't work, now what?" By the time they even thnk that, if the other guy has a clue, he's already getting angles.
To put an analogy on this: We've all seen vids/pix of a shark attack, right? Notice when going for the actual bite, the sharks eyes kind of roll up? Same thing when going for a HO... pulling the trigger results in that "eyes roll up" as you commit to the shot, fully expecting to achieve the "bite." Failure = still hungry shark or dead Hoer, yanno?
Well, that would be the nube approach to one. What if he starts firing at 1K and stops at D500 to switch to a normal merge. If you go back before this got out of hand, that is my only argument. Don;t confuse the nube that would have died anyway, with the act of pulling the trigger. In the scenario where you simply try to avoid within 1K, you are at a disadvantage. Yeah the nube will pull through the merge firing, but chances are he is not coming back for a fight anyway. In the case of the people that make a leaving out of it, that is not the case. Is it cheap, stupid, and everything else we call it? yes. But there is a reason they do it and it is not because they die easily after one
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It's funny that the Typhoon we encountered flying high last night in the MW arena dove on me using a HO merge which was easily avoided. Want to know who was flying the Typhoon? The guy that created this thread, oh the irony...
ack-ack
lol a ho merge akak please i was 3 k above u and from behind so please if you going to BS should do it when other guy does't flim every sortie he flys.
PS....was tiffy 3 38's a20 against my no fuel tiffy. i made a pass on you and went to land. You whined on 200 told you can 't out of fuel. so what do you guys try to do kill when landing sooo please becareful don't get upset if someone for once higher alt than you lol like i said film shows me following cobria for 10miles running to 38's and shows i was at 10 defending than back at 9 but agian call guy timid but forget to mention how u flew away when u saw higher con and came back 10 mins later 10k higher. but hey thump chesting new ah sport lol
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lol a ho merge akak please i was 3 k above u and from behind
What were you....on the moon? ;)
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and from the "honor, respect, fair play thread,
color me with contradicting messages? :noid Tactically, staying up as opposed to pigpiling the solo con *is* poor decision - makes more sense to stay up for that incoming wave. You can let them go diving down into the pigpile to help their solo gangee, giving you, as the remaining high con a variety of tactical options.
Before you say, apples and oranges, let's keep it to bananas, meaning you're both encouraging newbies to go against "conventional wisdom," i.e. tactics. Going for the HO and pigpiling one lower con both result in leaving one with a tactically inferior position - despite what both you and dedalos claim, respectively.
When I duel deadlos to test his theory.. i may or may not avoid the HO and instead HO back, making it the usual 50-50 proposition, thereby negating his claim, which only works because both know the deal, and the HOer will be anticipating an avoidance, negating the actual HO shot.
Hi Shane :) I just re-read the quote, and I can't see where I wasn't clear enough about it. It's not uncommon for me to see this situation when I am spending my login at a furball between 2 fields. Me being the lone con magnet at 8k when the next 12k wave comes in is of no benefit to me. This situation is clearly caused by the excess knuckleheads on the deck. If I can swoop in, remove their reason for being on the deck and zoom almost right back up to where I was, I lose nothing, but gain friendlies grabbing E. This is usually preceeded by the observational though "this is ridiculous, these guys are taking entirely too long to dispatch one enemy".
However, your point makes sense. I essentially pointed out an exception to the conventional wisdom, by giving the example of what I may do if the situation fits. What I did not do is call the conventional wisdom BS and wrong.
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the only plane i love hoeing in is the il2 because i know i can win and they are idiots to try to do it
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What I did not do is call the conventional wisdom BS and wrong.
No, you should have called it a troll or that he is having some kind of secret reasons for post that :rofl
Conventional wisdom :rofl Get a bunch of clueless people in a room and they will come up with what their version of conventional wisdom. But hay, everyone should follow it because they said so. Prove me wrong. Lets try it, conventional wisdom says I will die in seconds just because my finger clicked the trigger :rofl :rofl :rofl
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No, you should have called it a troll or that he is having some kind of secret reasons for post that :rofl
Conventional wisdom :rofl Get a bunch of clueless people in a room and they will come up with what their version of conventional wisdom. But hay, everyone should follow it because they said so. Prove me wrong. Lets try it, conventional wisdom says I will die in seconds just because my finger clicked the trigger :rofl :rofl :rofl
No secret motivation at all, other than to point out both of you were giving newbies advice that, ummmm, should have been presented differently, imho. What I'm saying is that, newbies might heed this "advice" and now we have an even newer generation of ganging HOers. Capice?
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No, you should have called it a troll or that he is having some kind of secret reasons for post that :rofl
Conventional wisdom :rofl Get a bunch of clueless people in a room and they will come up with what their version of conventional wisdom. But hay, everyone should follow it because they said so. Prove me wrong. Lets try it, conventional wisdom says I will die in seconds just because my finger clicked the trigger :rofl :rofl :rofl
I didn't call anything. I asked what the point was and fielded a couple of theories. But you've just answered the question. You're dropping into a conversation about what we find to be the normal case in the MA, and you're edjumacating us poor clueless folk with points that we'll rarely if ever run into in the MA.
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No secret motivation at all, other than to point out both of you were giving newbies advice that, ummmm, should have been presented differently, imho. What I'm saying is that, newbies might heed this "advice" and now we have an even newer generation of ganging HOers. Capice?
I wasn't giving advise. I simply stated where I'll make an exception, and why.
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I wasn't giving advise. I simply stated where I'll make an exception, and why.
No advice here either. Just my opinion. Honestly, I see no difference in the game than 5 years ago as far as the new players go. New is new and will fire at anything red anyway they can. It does not mean they dont want to learn. It means they got exited they actually got a chance to fire at something.
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I wasn't giving advise. I simply stated where I'll make an exception, and why.
well.... it's not just a simple matter to seperate what a newbie may take away from the message (since clarified, obviously) from the messenger - your training badge, so to speak. They also see you at odds with dedalos about HO merges (also further clarified.) See what I'm getting at? I know... I know... but I'm not a newbie.
And think about this: would these two issues/situations have been "further clarified" if I hadn't chimed in? :noid
Let's just all agree that I'm right when stating HO merges and gangings are poor tactical and gameplay choices. I'll concede to you both that under certain circumstances, exceptions occur. :aok
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Let's just all agree that I'm right when stating HO merges and gangings are poor tactical and gameplay choices. I'll concede to you both that under certain circumstances, exceptions occur. :aok
:lol I always start typing keeping in mind that if you respond, you will be right :P
BTW, agree on the game play. Very poor. Tactical? well, again, there is a reason most people fly like like that in the game. Not to mention that real life is also about numbers and better equipment.
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:lol I always start typing keeping in mind that if you respond, you will be right :P
BTW, agree on the game play. Very poor. Tactical? well, again, there is a reason most people fly like like that in the game. Not to mention that real life is also about numbers and better equipment.
I'm awlays right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others. :noid
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I think what sets the HO'er in a bad position is the greed that comes with it. If I am merging and watching angles I am in "Observation, orientation" and constantly making decisions to put my plane on a firing solution to where he will hopefully be through continuous orientation. When someone stays in the "action" (pulling the trigger) phase without proper orientation to make a good decision (where I need to angle my plane, throttle, etc...), they put themselves behind the curve. I have almost gotten into a bad habit of offering a shot to my opponent to entice them into a bad decision. It works many times as they stall or place their plane at a bad angle but when I encounter a very good stick I end up in the tower in less then 2 seconds. They don't fall for it or they don't miss the enticing shot which leaves me behind the curve.
So I agree that if you dodge the HO and put your plane at a poor place in space and angle and the HOer stops the straight on attack and breaks into a normal merge he would have the edge, BUT if I can practice a merge that both gives me good placement for a merge AND makes it difficult for the HOer to put well aimed fire on me it will give me the edge as long as I don't deviate and break. Filth has a very unusual merge that does this I think.
Everyone goes through this cycle of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. The person that can go through it at a quicker tempo usually wins.
Search John Boyd for more interesting reading on the OODA loop. We have adopted this teaching for law enforcement with very good results.
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Search John Boyd for more interesting reading on the OODA loop. We have adopted this teaching for law enforcement with very good results.
I want to hear more about law enforcement and HO stories. With pictures please. :D
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lol...what happens with the HO stays with the HO :noid
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I'm awlays right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others. :noid
:rofl
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:rofl
hellsya!! :rock
<sniffle> I had a few nice player quotes in my sig way back before skuzzy went commie on sig sizes, etc. One form seeker about <cough> sportsmanship, honor and integrity in an online game - something to the effect of that's all we really have in one. Yeah, here it is. I quoted part of it in my sig.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,49266.msg443121/topicseen.html#msg443121 :noid
And one from drunky about me being akin to tossing a grenade into a hamster farm. :D heh, gotta love search.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,87673.msg867072/topicseen.html#msg867072