Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Reschke on January 12, 2009, 09:33:59 AM
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1 dead, dozens injured in Gaza by suspected white phosphorus munitions
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-phosphorus12-2009jan12,0,2138761.story
Big deal or not a big deal??? I think war should be waged all out no matter what. Any time you leave anything behind you create a bigger problem down the road.
Although there apparently was an agreement in 1980 on prohibiting its use on civilian populations. However in a situation like Gaza you really can't control where the enemy is and where it isn't so its a moot point to me.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2005/11/mil-051116-rferl03.htm
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That stuff in among civilians is nasty, but thats the price of waging guerrilla warfare. Who is the civilians?
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The LA times article of course mentions many different names which all sound Arabic to me.
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People only worry about it because it appeared on TV. If it wasn't filmed not a word would have been said. A cynical view but probably true.
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Civilians?? Which ones are those? They live among the combatants and do not point them out, makes them just as bad.
Funny you see less "concern" when the rockets were coming from Gaza as opposed to going into. It's nice to see a country not ran by a bunch of pansies. Here in the US they would sit on their hands. They would not want to upset anyone.
It's sad that anyone in this day and time wants to poke another in the eye. But there are evil folks all over the world.
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Civilians?? Which ones are those? They live among the combatants and do not point them out, makes them just as bad.
Funny you see less "concern" when the rockets were coming from Gaza as opposed to going into. It's nice to see a country not ran by a bunch of pansies. Here in the US they would sit on their hands. They would not want to upset anyone.
It's sad that anyone in this day and time wants to poke another in the eye. But there are evil folks all over the world.
LOL! I'd like to see you pointing fingers in Gaza with armed-to-teeth combatants hiding next door. Not only you but your whole family will get beheaded in a snap.
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It's nice to see a country not ran by a bunch of pansies. Here in the US they would sit on their hands. They would not want to upset anyone.
I think you are wrong. The US would not have waited 8 years if rockets were flying over from, lets say, Mexico. Mexico would have gone up in smoke while "embedded" reporters would be taken out for a spin in the desert, to take pictures of dust (best trick ever). Heck, even if the US didn't know who attacked it, some random country was attack for it... err.. I meant would be attacked....
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LOL! I'd like to see you pointing fingers in Gaza with armed-to-teeth combatants hiding next door. Not only you but your whole family will get beheaded in a snap.
Then I guess you'll have to put up with the airstrikes hitting your house.
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LOL! I'd like to see you pointing fingers in Gaza with armed-to-teeth combatants hiding next door. Not only you but your whole family will get beheaded in a snap.
If you can't then move. If you stay you put your family at risk. It is not Israel's fault. The are protecting their own. Would be up to you to do the same.
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I read about this yesterday on BBC ,
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45365000/jpg/_45365526_1.jpg)
here"s a movie also, must be one of those 155mm shell , but who knows what's loaded with, looks like some burning material , maybe it's used for smokescreen only.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7823078.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7823078.stm)
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I agree with bozon it took way to long for the politicians here to understand people living in bomb shelters is not acceptable.
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I honestly could care less. I was generally asking if and when those items were outlawed.
I personally like the way the Romans dealt with waging war...to the victor goes the spoils and that includes the slaves as well. When they beat a tribe (what 90% of all the "wars" they fought then were at that time) or series of tribes they took the non-combatants into slavery and sent them off to other parts of the empire. That was to create an easier place to rule over and settle for their people instead of constantly having to fight all the time.
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They kill people in war?
Zomg!
:O
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LOL! I'd like to see you pointing fingers in Gaza with armed-to-teeth combatants hiding next door. Not only you but your whole family will get beheaded in a snap.
ya, because the combatents are watching you 24/7. :rolleyes:
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Funny you see less "concern" when the rockets were coming from Gaza as opposed to going into.
yup, thats because they are hardly a threat. deaths inside Israel from rocket and mortar attacks 2001-2008: 17. thats about 2.5 a year. deaths from paracetamol use in Israel per year: about 40.
I'm not saying its not frightening, just saying that you have less chance of being killed by a Hamas rockets in Israel than ... pretty much anything else.
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Politics aside, Use of white Phosphorus in urban areas is going to cause a lot of casualities, If it was a grenade or such then maybe the damage would be local, but to drop this stuff from something like an arty shell will cause a lot of damage to people, Imagine a tracer round hitting you, the burn effects are much the same as this stuff.
Just shows a lot of people that have never experienced being in contact that nobody gets away scott free, even the Civvies get hurt, Being engaged in contact is no joke or video game.
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yup, thats because they are hardly a threat. deaths inside Israel from rocket and mortar attacks 2001-2008: 17. thats about 2.5 a year. deaths from paracetamol use in Israel per year: about 40.
I'm not saying its not frightening, just saying that you have less chance of being killed by a Hamas rockets in Israel than ... pretty much anything else.
That is one of the dumbest things ive seen said in a long time, that 8 years of constant rocket barrages on civilian populations are hardly a threat, how about you count the number of kids in sderot who are 13 14 15 16 years old who wet the bed every night from stress induced syndroms from the rocket attacks, or maybe the number of people who maybe didnt die, but lost a limb, were injured badly and or suffer from a number of syndroms induced by panic, or can you return those 8 years to people who have livid in holes in the ground, or an young kid 6,7 or 8 years old who doesnt know what life is without a siren, or a rocket falling.People live thier lives in fear. Excuse my lecturing but i dont consider this hardly a threat.
And property damage is just a whole nother story.
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as I implied, I understand that the perceived threat is very frightening, however I think its vital to apprecate the real threat (stats supplied by the Israeli govt btw).
when many westerners hear about rockets "raining down" on Israel they might picture ss-20s, scuds or some foreign versions of the formidable NATO arsenal, whereas the reality is very different in terms of capability.
I also appreciate that non-fatal casualties of any conflict are far greater in number and broader in political effect than the fatalities. I'm pretty sure you dont want me to look into those numbers in any detail.
Out of respect for a former squaddie and a someone I suspect to be a standup guy I'm sorry if you dont like what I've posted, but as an impartial observer I feel obliged to add a little balance to opinions about the conflict on this board. :salute
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This Board is for Discussions. That can't happen without differing opinions or with someone at least looking from the other side. Your opinion counts be it right or wrong just as mine does right or wrong. <S>
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Civilians?? Which ones are those? They live among the combatants and do not point them out, makes them just as bad.
not an intelligent statement.
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It makes them normal people who don't want to abandon the home they've probably lived in since they were born.
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"Big deal or not a big deal??? I think war should be waged all out no matter what. Any time you leave anything behind you create a bigger problem down the road."
I bet your chair is comfortable, so reach out for a book and find out that this is exactly how Hitler wanted it, i.e. in Russia.
Wage the war out against the children, this is good for that job. Lice are bad, so kill the nits.
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If you can't then move. If you stay you put your family at risk. It is not Israel's fault. The are protecting their own. Would be up to you to do the same.
No moving, the blockade. Why do they need anti-tank shells that turn desert to glass against ramshackle buildings anyway?
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No moving, the blockade. Why do they need anti-tank shells that turn desert to glass against ramshackle buildings anyway?
Well looks like hamas brought a knife to a gunfight. Short of a nuke strike I think they should use the weapons they have available.
Folks have to know they are in a danger zone when by their home rockets are fired towards another country. Some folks have watched was too many videos of "smart bombs" taking out keyhole targets. There can and will be collateral damage.
I live in an area where there are alot of plants... fuel and chemical. I accept that those are targets and chose to live here. If anything happens I won't blame yall.
As for a blockade..... rocket attacks have been going on a long time. Way before the blockade was enabled.
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No moving, the blockade. Why do they need anti-tank shells that turn desert to glass against ramshackle buildings anyway?
A WP round is not anti-tank, it's anti-personnel. I always hated shooting these on a timed fuse. At MOS school they showed us a clip of a gun crew that screwed up the fuse. It wasn't pretty.
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Well, we can be thankful for small mercies anyway, given the density of the Gaza strip, it wouild be worse if the Israelis were doing a Hamas and just lobbing in unguided rockets into built up areas.
Anyway, few weeks from now it'll go quiet again, That despot regime that is just a little bit ranked above Zimbabwe in terms of political freedom known as Egypt will make sure the tunnels are not blocked, they'll still get billions in aid from the US, the wheel will keep turning and there'll be a new thread in a short while on the same stuff.
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I always call for HE when I request WP... otherwise known as Shake-n-bake...anyways..Willy Pete is used for screening, marking, obscurring or limiting vision....it is used against vehicles, POL(petroleum, oil and lubricant) fascilities and enemy observers... According to LOW(Law of War) WP cannot be used against civilians.. then again..collateral damage is an accepted consequence of war.
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as I implied, I understand that the perceived threat is very frightening, however I think its vital to apprecate the real threat (stats supplied by the Israeli govt btw).
when many westerners hear about rockets "raining down" on Israel they might picture ss-20s, scuds or some foreign versions of the formidable NATO tomatonal, whereas the reality is very different in terms of capability.
I also appreciate that non-fatal casualties of any conflict are far greater in number and broader in political effect than the fatalities. I'm pretty sure you dont want me to look into those numbers in any detail.
Out of respect for a former squaddie and a someone I suspect to be a standup guy I'm sorry if you dont like what I've posted, but as an impartial observer I feel obliged to add a little balance to opinions about the conflict on this board. :salute
That does not make what Hamas is doing and has done all along anything other than terrorism. If some clown keeps throwing bricks at my house and in my yard, and the police do not respond, I'm going to respond, not in kind, but rather I will rapidly escalate things to a quick end. The fact that he's not killed any of my family yet is not going to change it either. My intentions will be to deal with him as quickly and harshly as is necessary to prevent him from ever doing it again.
It also does not change the fact that not only does Hamas commit terrorist acts on a constant and regular basis, but they also do so while hiding among civilians, and further, operating from or next to schools, hospitals, and mosques, doing so in a deliberate manner intended to cause maximum collateral damage in a retaliatory strike. Hamas intentionally gets their own people killed or maimed in an at least partially successful public relations campaign.
And finally, the inhabitants of Gaza evidently freely elected Hamas, a terrorist organization, as their government and their representative to the world. As such, all of those who voted, evidently overwhelmingly, to elect Hamas, must bear a large part of the responsibility, almost as large as Hamas itself, and certainly far larger than Israel.
Only the children get any real sympathy from me. And possibly some of the women.
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Willy Pete is used for screening, marking, obscurring or limiting vision....it is used against vehicles, POL(petroleum, oil and lubricant) fascilities and enemy observers... According to LOW(Law of War) WP cannot be used against civilians.. then again..collateral damage is an accepted consequence of war.
Well said.
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That does not make what Hamas is doing and has done all along anything other than terrorism. If some clown keeps throwing bricks at my house and in my yard, and the police do not respond, I'm going to respond, not in kind, but rather I will rapidly escalate things to a quick end. The fact that he's not killed any of my family yet is not going to change it either. My intentions will be to deal with him as quickly and harshly as is necessary to prevent him from ever doing it again.
It also does not change the fact that not only does Hamas commit terrorist acts on a constant and regular basis, but they also do so while hiding among civilians, and further, operating from or next to schools, hospitals, and mosques, doing so in a deliberate manner intended to cause maximum collateral damage in a retaliatory strike. Hamas intentionally gets their own people killed or maimed in an at least partially successful public relations campaign.
And finally, the inhabitants of Gaza evidently freely elected Hamas, a terrorist organization, as their government and their representative to the world. As such, all of those who voted, evidently overwhelmingly, to elect Hamas, must bear a large part of the responsibility, almost as large as Hamas itself, and certainly far larger than Israel.
Only the children get any real sympathy from me. And possibly some of the women.
Couldn't agree with you more! It would be like Europe telling us we couldnt go after Al-Queda after 9/11. I know there is major difference between 9/11 and Hamas launching rockets into Isreal. But no one wants their civilians being terrorized!!
GO ISREAL!! Do what no other country would do!!
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Civilians?? Which ones are those? They live among the combatants and do not point them out, makes them just as bad.
THANK YOU!!! Agreed 100%!
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And what happens to the whistleblower? Dead, slowly?
What's sadder is that Hamas was VOTED for, they won the election. So the war is particularly unfair on the peaceful minority as well as the infants.
Also odd that they don't seem to learn. For every time the Israelis are annoyed enough to get kicked into war, they win, and afterwards either conquer new areas or add to the pressure.
What Hamas must really hope is that the Arabic world starts a combined operation to save them. Israel also did have their close calls in the past....
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Civilian targets brutally attacked by Israel. So much senseless violence:
A school:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9WzUc7iB0&feature=channel_page
A mosque (The kuran books are set off and give secondary explosions):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCVr7MBhgj0&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwP_LusgPAw&feature=channel
Civilian houses, trucks and wine cellers. The wine explodes when hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHNk6eBw3ME&feature=channel
and this is why the UN is a piece of crap (notice, this is over a year ago, when nobody cared that Israel is being fired uppon):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=channel
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Yup. They fire from within the population, and getting back at them is tough and costs lives.
Lets hope they go out of office now....
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it wouild be worse if the Israelis were doing a Hamas and just lobbing in unguided rockets into built up areas.
they are ...
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A sad situation on all fronts is all it is.
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White phosphorus?...pppppfffffttttt!
Could be worse.
Could be Napalm.
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-puts on his hamas war boots-
Apparently we now live in a world where i can fire 50 rockets into your country, killing no one due to them having better survivability tactics (raid warnings, bomb shelters .ect .ect) disableing my ability to murder your people. Then when you fire one rocket back and kill 35+ of my people my entire nation/religion go's bat watermelon crasy, your all of a sudden the worst of two jacked up worlds. never mind the fact i fired 50 rockets into your country, its not like i didnt have every intent to mame murder and wound children women and young men.
-puts back on his american boots-
Do any of you understand my point?
White Phosphorus, that is the least they should get in return for YEARS or trying to murder people..oh why oh why do i feel not too many arabs see things that way.
"Im allowed to piss all over you all i want, when you do it back, your a bad bad man. - Arab joe"
Whatever achmed, just remember it was your people who burned my flag IN CELEBRATION!..as thousands of MY people were being slaughterd on american soil. and yet show me one american city, or town or state that is having a "party" to your peoples so called *slaughter*.
Every time an arab dies a american flag gets burned, its like christmas! weee :rock
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80% below the poverty line.
No jobs, no food, and no hope. They really don't have anything much to lose. That's how you get the majority voting for Hamas.
But killing 300+ innocents in a matter of weeks in response to what, 10-20 rocket attack deaths in the past 4 years? But don't take this to mean I sympathize with the terrorists hiding among the dense civillian population. Mothers on both sides of the fence are loosing thier children needlessly.
Back and forth with force is going to continue to make everything worse, never better.
What is the endgame to this for either side?
Then again, this convo has nothing to do with just discussing WP rounds anymore and is going to be all rhetoric and politics.
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Innocents???
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Sad.
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I have the key to an end. The removal of Hamas as an entity from Gaza. If that does not happen, Gaza will continually be used to attack Israel by the terrorist dirtballs.
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I love how all of the Arabs make a big deal about 900 deaths in Gaza after nearly 3 weeks of fighting. Its all over the news and them screaming for vengeance and Jihad and all that good stuff....
But when nearly 3,000 American civilians lose their lives in a matter of mintues due to cowardly terrorist attacks, not a word is said except of celebration and praise for the Terrorists!!
I say they want a Jihad, then lets give em one!! :rock
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Everyone is up in arms about rockets flying into Israel and how that is bad, Lest you forget the US has fired missiles into Pakistan and killed even more people then the rockets from Gaza to Israel.
MIRANSHAH, Pakistan, Oct 11 (Reuters) - Suspected U.S. drones fired two missile on Saturday into Pakistan's North Waziristan, a tribal region on the Afghan border
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Nov. 14 (UPI) -- Missiles fired Friday from suspected U.S. drones killed 11 people in Pakistan's insurgency-plagued northwest tribal region, officials said.
ISLAMABAD, Dec 11 (Reuters) - A suspected U.S. drone fired a missile into South Waziristan on Thursday, a Pakistani region seen as a major sanctuary for al Qaeda militants, and killed seven militants, two intelligence officials said
22 December 2008
SUSPECTED US drones fired at least two missiles into Pakistan's South Waziristan region on the Afghan border today, killing at least seven people.
Missiles fired into Pakistan 9:01PM Thursday January 01, 2009 Source: Reuters
A suspected US drone fired missiles into Pakistan's South Waziristan region on the Afghan border
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suspected suspected suspected suspected suspected....
Ever hear about people making it across the border to another nations "freedom" from other crimes in another country, only to catch a bullet in the back from the very person who was chasing them? (Military, law enforcement)
Bullet, rocket, missile, bomb.
Imagine if someone killed your boy, or girl, and ran across a border to safety, all the while yelling "neener neener neener you cant get us" while standing on the VERY LAND of the people firing rockets into another nation for years with the FULL intent to slaughter, hell bent on another race/country/people/religion's total eradication of not just them(jewish people), but ME as well. Figure this out, and you will understand our people are having blood spilled by the very same monsters that started this all.
If it was a american drone (heheh), its about dang time, consider that your proverbial bullet in the back terrorists.
Just cause you can beat feet across a invisible line achmed, dose not mean something else cant.
And the note left reads: "No american feet stepped foot on your soil while getting a lil' pay back, cant say the same for your nations terrorists."
Feels like sunshine.
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A mosque (The kuran books are set off and give secondary explosions):
Civilian houses, trucks and wine cellers. The wine explodes when hit.
Exploding wine and books? Ahhhahahahahahah now I've heard it all.
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Everyone is up in arms about rockets flying into Israel and how that is bad, Lest you forget the US has fired missiles into Pakistan and killed even more people then the rockets from Gaza to Israel.
Did it ever seem like a good idea to fire rockets at Israel? No! Do you think they will figure it out? No!
WP (an area weapon) was designed for situations just like this so its the best weapon to use I guess.
I am sure if the US fired rockets into 'Pakistan' they had a good idea what target those rockets would hit. Every now and then they screw up. Okay...
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I love how all of the Arabs make a big deal about 900 deaths in Gaza after nearly 3 weeks of fighting. Its all over the news and them screaming for vengeance and Jihad and all that good stuff....
But when nearly 3,000 American civilians lose their lives in a matter of mintues due to cowardly terrorist attacks, not a word is said except of celebration and praise for the Terrorists!!
I say they want a Jihad, then lets give em one!! :rock
And the Palestinians cheered in the streets while burning the U.S. flag.
Not exactly the winning way of getting some sympathy now is it...
However, this one is a no-win. Every day now, both members look like bigger thugs, and the people are stuck between them. When this is over, the Hamas will be weaker, but you have a whole tribe of those who hate Israelis, - those who lost their loved ones.
Maybe they're planning on complete surrender, which in WW2 was the key after the conflict...
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...
But killing 300+ innocents in a matter of weeks in response to what, 10-20 rocket attack deaths in the past 4 years? But don't take this to mean I sympathize with the terrorists hiding among the dense civillian population. Mothers on both sides of the fence are loosing thier children needlessly.
...
Then again, this convo has nothing to do with just discussing WP rounds anymore and is going to be all rhetoric and politics.
OK, lets try this equation: How many people would you agree to be killed in exchange for your son? 1? 10? 100? 1000? 1E+6?
I know that all humanity can burn in exchange to mine.
A government does however place value on the lives of its citizens. It has to. But when those 10-20 deaths are not do to an incident, but to a method, I want you to find the man to go and explain the mother why it was allowed to repeatedly attempt to kill her son until it finally worked. This is the difference between an incident and a pattern.
Does it make a difference if you kill 900 people in a year or in a day? of course it does. 900 people/year does not make the news, while 900/day is breaking news - that is it. For any of those 900 it does not matter if 899 others were killed and in what time frame.
Where am I going with this? It is the method of organizations such as Hamas and Hizballa to stage endless continuous small incidents, that will not make the world news and none is a cause for major retaliation. When finally the attacked state decides it will not take it any longer and decides to change the rules, what the world see is a "disproportionate" (what is that anyway?) response to the last minor incident, completely ignoring the very long sequence that lead to it. What was perceived as the cause for the 2006 Lebanon war is the kidnapping of the 2 (dead) Isreali soldiers, completely ignoring the 6 years in which Hizballa was staging attacks against Israel, every 3 months (almost clockwork) over the border marked by the UN (U is for Useless) in 2000. A government would like to break the pattern BEFORE its own dead count matches the one it will cause on the other side in order to break it. If there are going to be any killing done, it is better to be on the delivering and not the receiving end.
Regarding the WP, the whole accusation is idiotic. Israel does not stage area attacks on populations (unlike some good old western countries and not that long ago). If it did, it has far better ways to do it and it will not be a few reported incidents, it will be a total carnage. WP is used for other purposes and if civilians were injured by it than that is unfortunate, but not a goal. Collateral damage is inevitable, especially since this is what Hamas wants and tries to archive. The idea of legal "rules" to wars is problematic - "hits are allowed only to the body. The dead deserve an open casket funeral".
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"White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????"
In no way, Saddam routinely used WP rounds in attacks against civilians. :devil
More interesting the question if Israel is using DIME ammunition in Gaza?
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Maybe they're planning on complete surrender, which in WW2 was the key after the conflict...
Maybe they are planning on a Norwegian surrender where they give up all their territory and the government leaves, but they say they didn't actually surrender 60 years later?
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Nice troll there.
Norway fought on for 6 weeks after their capital AND all major towns fell, since they were captured dozing in the first day.
My point was the lessons From WWI repeated in Gulf War I. Peace is negotiated before complete capitulation, hence the later (or in Hussein's case, same) authorities start claiming they were not beaten. and that they would have won etc etc.
After Germany fell in WW2 and same with Japan, no such talk was abroad.
BTW, Norway never negotiated for peace. (They were offered to). But Denmark did. And so Did France, and Germany did in WWI...
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Angus,
As I said I am all for total war in that respect. If you are going to fight then you fight...you don't tiptoe through the tulips when you go to shooting at someone. We did that in Viet Nam and it is being done again to a lesser extent in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just think of it this way...did the Allies pull any punches on the German or Japanese populace in WW2? Not to the extent of genocide but you can't worry about civilian casualties when you got to war. It is a bad thing but it happens.
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That does not make what Hamas is doing and has done all along anything other than terrorism. If some clown keeps throwing bricks at my house and in my yard, and the police do not respond, I'm going to respond, not in kind, but rather I will rapidly escalate things to a quick end. The fact that he's not killed any of my family yet is not going to change it either. My intentions will be to deal with him as quickly and harshly as is necessary to prevent him from ever doing it again.
It also does not change the fact that not only does Hamas commit terrorist acts on a constant and regular basis, but they also do so while hiding among civilians, and further, operating from or next to schools, hospitals, and mosques, doing so in a deliberate manner intended to cause maximum collateral damage in a retaliatory strike. Hamas intentionally gets their own people killed or maimed in an at least partially successful public relations campaign.
And finally, the inhabitants of Gaza evidently freely elected Hamas, a terrorist organization, as their government and their representative to the world. As such, all of those who voted, evidently overwhelmingly, to elect Hamas, must bear a large part of the responsibility, almost as large as Hamas itself, and certainly far larger than Israel.
Only the children get any real sympathy from me. And possibly some of the women.
:aok
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So innocent civilians are legitimate targets because of the actions and policies of their democratically elected govt?
Interesting...
Tronsky
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You mean the govt could let its own people be harmed because it doesn't want "innocent" blood on its hands?
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Angus,
As I said I am all for total war in that respect. If you are going to fight then you fight...you don't tiptoe through the tulips when you go to shooting at someone. We did that in Viet Nam and it is being done again to a lesser extent in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just think of it this way...did the Allies pull any punches on the German or Japanese populace in WW2? Not to the extent of genocide but you can't worry about civilian casualties when you got to war. It is a bad thing but it happens.
We'll see how it goes. If it ends the conflict, its the better of two evils. Hundreds of casualties racked up in some weeks are "better" than thousands racked up in some years, if the thing comes to a stop.
And now Bin Laden has entered the scene and wants to play Muslims vs Cowboys. tsk tsk tsk....
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Using fear and murder to get elected is "democratic?"
So innocent civilians are legitimate targets because of the actions and policies of their democratically elected govt?
Interesting...
Tronsky
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You mean the govt could let its own people be harmed because it doesn't want "innocent" blood on its hands?
Well it would depend on which govt is getting the headlines wouldn't it.
Using fear and murder to get elected is "democratic?"
Is some places indeed it is...but it wasn't the case in the 2006 PA elections. Its a lot easier to win votes running a campaign based on percieved strength and defiance than maintaining the status quo with a beaten people.
Tronsky
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Not rising up, or at the least, not speaking out about one's tyrannical, murderous government, is a crime of it's own in my opinion.
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Tronski, I mean that they'll have blood on their hands either way. What would you do? Magically wage war against a target that's mixed with civilians, those civilians effectively doing nothing to distance themselves from said targets, without any civilian collaterals?
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I do not think they have anywhere to go.
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80% below the poverty line.
No jobs, no food, and no hope. They really don't have anything much to lose. That's how you get the majority voting for Hamas.
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Then again, this convo has nothing to do with just discussing WP rounds anymore and is going to be all rhetoric and politics
The poverty probably has nothing to do with a few suicide bombers blowing up busses in Israel, which lead to closing of the borders and therefore alot of people lost their access to work and marketplaces in Israel. Now they have voted Hamas, which has only made the things worse. Though, I'm afraid the people doesn't see it that way and only fault Israel for all their problems, which will further escalate the situation as israelis strike against civilian targets used as cover by Hamas.
I'm not so worried of WP as of the DIME weapon. The DIME will have long lasting effects where it is used and it will be used alot, unless Israel is forced to cease it's use.
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The poverty probably has nothing to do with...
This your hypothesis or a fact you can back with evidence? Just look at crime rates here in the US where a larger percentage of people live below the poverty line. And here it's nowhere near that rate.
I'm disgusted with terrorists using women and children as shields, I'm tired of seeing them fire rockets and mortars across the border.
I'm sad to see such bloodshed for what will amount to nothing. The vicious cycle is continuing to feed itself.
Need to take a look back to 1948 to see the start of all this.
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Even further. Go to 1933...
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Tough call.........
WP munitions may be terrible but compared to the depleted uranium ammo we used in the Storm, makes WP look like snowballs.
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Even further. Go to 1933...
well, even further. Go to AD 70 (First Roman-Jewish War) when Hadrian destroyed the first (?) temple and the Jews exiled from Judea.
...but this fact will not end the violence in that region. Both sides have a historical claim on this land and are willing to defend or fight for their rights. As long, as the Arabs don`t accept the rights of the jewisch people to have their own state, nothing will change and Israel has to defend itself with all means. Even with using WP munition...
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Now that ...was a point. Since Hamas don't even recognize Israel as a state at all.
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...but on the other hand, Israel can not kill their way out of the problem with Gaza...
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So innocent civilians are legitimate targets because of the actions and policies of their democratically elected govt?
Interesting...
Tronsky
The problem is their so called military dress in civilian clothes. It's by their own choice to put their own citizens in harms way.
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SOP for a resistance movement working in occupied territory.
edit: btw the Israelis dont recognise the Palestinian's right to their own state either.
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SOP for a resistance movement working in occupied territory.
edit: btw the Israelis dont recognise the Palestinian's right to their own state either.
That must be why Israel gave up Gaza and moved all there citizens out and gave it to the Palestinians?
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I think that camera crews should stay the hell out of combat zones. they give soldiers a bad rap because they kill, but thats what soldiers are here for, right :D?
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well, even further. Go to AD 70 (First Roman-Jewish War) when Hadrian destroyed the first (?) temple and the Jews exiled from Judea.
...but this fact will not end the violence in that region. Both sides have a historical claim on this land and are willing to defend or fight for their rights.
That was the second temple. The first was destroyed by the Babylonians about 600 years before that (on the exact same Jewish calendar date...)
Anyway, this dispute is not about historical claims, it is very much about present day claims. Even if one side has a better claim than the other it will not change a thing. Historical justice is a matter for academic debate, but does not exist in reality.
edit: btw the Israelis dont recognise the Palestinian's right to their own state either.
This is completely not true.
From the Israeli side, the dispute is about the exact borders and even that include less than 5% of the area that was not part of Israel before june 1967. The gaza strip in particular is considered by a VAST majority as not a part of Israel. This is why Israel was able to pull out and evacuate 8000 settles out of their homes. Without a very wide support base, this would have been politically impossible.
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I say again, Israel does not recognise the state of Palestine. 96 states currently recognise the state of Palestine, Israel is not one of them. Please check your facts before calling me out.
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Tough call.........
WP munitions may be terrible but compared to the depleted uranium ammo we used in the Storm, makes WP look like snowballs.
While I appreciate your attempt to sound witty or even intelligent you have failed here.
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I say again, Israel does not recognise the state of Palestine. 96 states currently recognise the state of Palestine, Israel is not one of them. Please check your facts before calling me out.
Lets review you words then: You said "right to their own state", not an existing state. And by the way, while the PLO mumbles something about two states, Hamas refuses to acknowledge the right or Israel to exist in any area of the middle east. It is not a border dispute for them.
It is also strange that 96 states recognize the state of Palestine, because as far as I know, the Palestinian never declared independence. They keep threatening to do it, but know that if they do Israel would have every legal right to disconnect any relation with them, close the borders and they will loose their refugee status and all international aid that comes with it.
At least up to a year ago they were still only threatening:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7254434.stm
Try googling "palestinian declare independence": Should, could, may... I didn't find when they declared it.
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PLO declared the State of Palestine in 1988. PNA proposes a future Palestinian State.
Hamas (and also PLO when it was originally formed) ultimately want a single Arab Palestinian State without Israel, including the expulsion of Jews from the territory. We can consider Hamas to be at the extreme of Palestinian opinion.
The extreme of Israeli opinion also ultimately want a single state solution - Israel and the expulsion of all Arabs from the region (this includes Gaza and the West Bank, not sure about their plans for Golan or indeed Lebanon).
The PNA and Israeli moderates both propose a 2 state solution.
I cant help feeling that most Palestinians in both Gaza and the West bank would very happy indeed if Israel closed its borders (assuming that the borders are defined by the green line), but only if they also withdrew their occupying army as well. At the moment the borders are effectively closed to Palestinians and open to Israelis.
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If you decide to pick a fight with a gorilla in a cage, and taunt and poke, and taunt and poke...the day the cage door swings open, expect the gorilla to exact a great measure of beat down on you.
It's no different in Gaza.
ROX