Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StokesAk on March 10, 2009, 10:28:38 PM
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This is a great plane. Cannons are good MG's are even good. Climb rate is uber. Speed and Acceleration a great. Not very tough but sure is light and quick to respond. I love it. My new plane. :rock
~Strokes
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How is it your new plane when its already mine :noid
Plane is a beast, schools spits with the climb rate, makes hogs have no chance for easy shot, and can keep up witha K4 in a vertical fight, I consider it top 5 best fighter planes :salute
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Yes your right. Im not so afraid bout 1v1 with spits.
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Matches very well against the 1A. Always find those to be tough fights.
It's outmatched against the -4 though.
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The Ki-84 can be a little unstable slow with more the 50% fuel. But fuel range is good so you shouldn't have more the 50% anyway.
Soda's write up is still valid.
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/Ki84.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/Ki84.htm)
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Just don't try to dive it next to your buddy in a N1K or Ki-61. :uhoh
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If you like it now, imagine flying the KI84-Ib. :rock
This version should and could be easily added to the game.
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Wow, I thought I was one of the only ones that enjoy it.
It can be taken both ways. Lacks ability to drop without ripping the wings off, lacks more powerful cannons more common in game, doesn't turn better than the known turn fighters and it doesn't outrun the faster planes.
All in all it's a 15eny plane for this reason.
What it IS good for is a multi aircraft battle. Best for that. As far as climbing with the spits, don't trust that very long.
RUN when you get against an LA though, you can't outrun and can't outturn. Like I said, it doesn't uber excel in any of these categories.
I'm running it this month on some new ACM methods, not doing so hot this month but learning some new moves.
Since the LA and Spit 16 can catch it, I figure I have to find something to cause a fatal mistake in the enemy. I'm practicing what I saw flawlessly performed last night, extend with attempts to evade through turns and twist while following a line...fly her straight until they get that close, then CHOP the throttle and do a wide barrel roll...halfway through the roll start throttling up and then WEP when you hit the end of your roll. You SHOULD be behind the enemy now. :) SHOULD.
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The last time I flew a Ki84 I was honestly a bit disappointed. It's like a Spitfire that can take more damage but can't dive as well. Very simple to fly. Once you get slow enough for flaps, it can do anything.
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Only a little bit tongue-in-cheek: Fly a 109F and you get a similar performance with double perk gain for each kill in a 1941 plane :)
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Wow, I thought I was one of the only ones that enjoy it.
It can be taken both ways. Lacks ability to drop without ripping the wings off, lacks more powerful cannons more common in game, doesn't turn better than the known turn fighters and it doesn't outrun the faster planes.
All in all it's a 15eny plane for this reason.
What it IS good for is a multi aircraft battle. Best for that. As far as climbing with the spits, don't trust that very long.
RUN when you get against an LA though, you can't outrun and can't outturn. Like I said, it doesn't uber excel in any of these categories.
I'm running it this month on some new ACM methods, not doing so hot this month but learning some new moves.
Since the LA and Spit 16 can catch it, I figure I have to find something to cause a fatal mistake in the enemy. I'm practicing what I saw flawlessly performed last night, extend with attempts to evade through turns and twist while following a line...fly her straight until they get that close, then CHOP the throttle and do a wide barrel roll...halfway through the roll start throttling up and then WEP when you hit the end of your roll. You SHOULD be behind the enemy now. :) SHOULD.
Trusted it against every spit I went again so far and I dont remeber the last spit that out preformed me in a eqaul 1v1, LA7 would be a harder matchup since it can out climb the ki, diving is hard but if you go into shallow dive spit wont gain but you wont pull away, anyplane that flat turns against my ki just lost the fight,ANY pilot.
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Trusted it against every spit I went again so far and I dont remeber the last spit that out preformed me in a eqaul 1v1, LA7 would be a harder matchup since it can out climb the ki, diving is hard but if you go into shallow dive spit wont gain but you wont pull away, anyplane that flat turns against my ki just lost the fight,ANY pilot.
Get over yourself already. Jesus Christ, shelve the ego.
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Trusted it against every spit I went again so far and I dont remeber the last spit that out preformed me in a eqaul 1v1, LA7 would be a harder matchup since it can out climb the ki, diving is hard but if you go into shallow dive spit wont gain but you wont pull away, anyplane that flat turns against my ki just lost the fight,ANY pilot.
maybe yours is more uber than mine or, I just suck :(
I do note the ability to extend into the clouds or fly level and extend a bit to take away their advantage and turn the fight into a more angular fight.
BUT when all things are equal, and I have = energy (alt or speed) when it comes time to make up for a mistake or catch, a spit16 is hard to deal with.
Maybe you start with a great E, even in the slightest to hold that advantage. I personally don't fear the KI84 very much when flying another plane as I know how to defeat it. 50% of the time I enjoy enticing them to rip their ailerons off, good fun.
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Get over yourself already. Jesus Christ, shelve the ego.
Self confidence, not ego :aok
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Self confidence, not ego :aok
You're the only who'll believe that, so my statement still stands.
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The last time I flew a Ki84 I was honestly a bit disappointed. It's like a Spitfire that can take more damage but can't dive as well. Very simple to fly. Once you get slow enough for flaps, it can do anything.
While I agree that the Ki-84 has great performance, it doesn't have the gentle handling of the Spit. The first few times I flew it I spun out without warning.
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How is it your new plane when its already mine :noid
Plane is a beast, schools spits with the climb rate, makes hogs have no chance for easy shot, and can keep up witha K4 in a vertical fight, I consider it top 5 best fighter planes :salute
Ah, not really... SpitVIII and XVI out-climb it with relative ease. Ditto for most 109s. All of these accelerate much faster as well.
Where the Ki-84 excels is E retention and the ability to fly it to almost a stop nose high and still point the nose. It has great ailerons. Elevators get stiff at speed, so manual trim is required. Flaps are excellent, but you have to be bog slow to get them out, and they retract if you even think about nosing down (or so it seems).
I love it, and fly it. Get used to it's quirks and it's a killer. Top ten fighter MA for sure, but I wouldn't rate it top five. Too many others that are much faster, and/or have far more lethal guns.
My regards,
Widewing
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Trusted it against every spit I went again so far and I dont remeber the last spit that out preformed me in a eqaul 1v1, LA7 would be a harder matchup since it can out climb the ki, diving is hard but if you go into shallow dive spit wont gain but you wont pull away, anyplane that flat turns against my ki just lost the fight,ANY pilot.
Likewise I can't remember a Ki-84 thats beat me in a one on one while in a Spit XVI. They do always put up a good fight though, I'll give them that.
DA?
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According to Gonzo's the Ki-84, Spit VIII and 109G-14 (for example) are all about equal in acceleration, but in climbrate the Ki-84 is inferior, yes.
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Acceleration is climbrate and climbrate is acceleration. Excess thrust gets turned into more speed or more altitude.
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Likewise I can't remember a Ki-84 thats beat me in a one on one while in a Spit XVI. They do always put up a good fight though, I'll give them that.
DA?
In the DA setting the spit should have the advantage. It will reverse more quickly than the Ki-84 can on the initial merge. If the Ki-84 can survive the first two merges he can generally work his way back to a nuetral position and perhaps have a chance. I'd say the Spit would win 7 or 8 out of 10 though.
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Likewise I can't remember a Ki-84 thats beat me in a one on one while in a Spit XVI. They do always put up a good fight though, I'll give them that.
DA?
Ill PM you next time I see you on sir <S>
btw might have to do it in MA because I got this superlag when I go into the DA but MA is fine, we will just say meet in grid so and so ... you know the deal :salute
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Ill PM you next time I see you on sir <S>
btw might have to do it in MA because I got this superlag when I go into the DA but MA is fine, we will just say meet in grid so and so ... you know the deal :salute
Try the TA... Lots of empty fields and you can shoot the snot out of each other until the ammo is gone. I prefer it to the DA because you can get shot up, separate out of icon range and remerge. No waiting to get a new plane.
My regards,
Widewing
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Trusted it against every spit I went again so far and I dont remeber the last spit that out preformed me in a eqaul 1v1, LA7 would be a harder matchup since it can out climb the ki, diving is hard but if you go into shallow dive spit wont gain but you wont pull away, anyplane that flat turns against my ki just lost the fight,ANY pilot.
Considering the average skill of the Spitfire pilot in this game, it's not surprising someone with mediocre skills can defeat one in a Ki-84.
ack-ack
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Try the TA... Lots of empty fields and you can shoot the snot out of each other until the ammo is gone. I prefer it to the DA because you can get shot up, separate out of icon range and remerge. No waiting to get a new plane.
My regards,
Widewing
What so no damage in the TA or something, Ive been going in there looking for trainers lately to see about acouple "high-Speed" ACM lessons but never seems to be anyone.
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Acceleration is climbrate and climbrate is acceleration. Excess thrust gets turned into more speed or more altitude.
I would wager acceleration is a balance between thrust, drag, and weight (inertia) whereas climb rate is a balance between thrust, wing efficiency (lift) and weight.
You'll note the Ki84, 109G14, and spit16 all have very similar acceleration rates (just a couple seconds off from min to max), and yet the ki84 has a noticable drop in climb compared to the other two (700 fpm drop or more).
I wouldn't just say "acceleration is climb and climb is acceleration" -- there may be a link yes, but they are not always 1:1.
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The good ki-84 sticks drain the fuel from the wings on transit to the fight :aok
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You have to pay close attention to your ammo in the 84. Those cannons burn through 300 rounds in a heartbeat.
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You have to pay close attention to your ammo in the 84. Those cannons burn through 300 rounds in a heartbeat.
True but if you take close in shots, it usually only takes a burst to get a kill.
ack-ack
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True but if you take close in shots, it usually only takes a burst to get a kill.
ack-ack
I agree. That's why it's not an easy-mode plane. I like to make mine do a nice flat spin from about 5k. I sing show tunes on the way down... :noid
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Likewise I can't remember a Ki-84 thats beat me in a one on one while in a Spit XVI. They do always put up a good fight though, I'll give them that.
DA?
Your on.
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Your on.
Look me up online. I hven't been playing much lately but I still get on occasionally.
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I've been flyin the K4 alot and the Hayate scares the shi@ out of me. What a great aircraft....
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Fwiw: in Il-2 I have dove the Ki-84 to 520mph, and then pulled g's in order not to auger, without losing parts. :P
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Fwiw: in Il-2 I have dove the Ki-84 to 520mph, and then pulled g's in order not to auger, without losing parts. :P
I've heard a few people on the forums ask where the high speed parts shedding comes from. Some answer that its a representation of late war subpar building materials.
Would be nice to hear HTC's comments on it.
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I've heard a few people on the forums ask where the high speed parts shedding comes from. Some answer that its a representation of late war subpar building materials.
Would be nice to hear HTC's comments on it.
Again, if it is a representation of subpar workmanship, then the Ki-84 is the only plane in the game to have that built into the model.
I would also love to hear HTC's explanation.
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I've seen a lot more than just the Ki84 rip wings, it isn't isolated to the Ki84.
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I've seen a lot more than just the Ki84 rip wings, it isn't isolated to the Ki84.
The Ki-84 doesn't rip wings. It looses its elevators, ailerons, and other control surfaces without even pulling G's once you get to 400mph+ ias.
Come on, how often do you fly the Ki-84? Huh? Huh? ;)
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Come on, how often do you fly the Ki-84? Huh? Huh? ;)
Never, the Ki-84 is a P38 with training wheels.
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Never, the Ki-84 is a P38 with training wheels.
Considering the P-38 is an easymode fighter, not sure how that works out.
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If thats the case Del, you'll have to help me out a bit. I feel very confident and capable in the Ki84, but using the same attacks, defense, and overall combat tactics I flounder quickly in the 38j.
I have to fly a very different mindset in the 38 to attempt to get the same success as I do in the Hayate.
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Yeah, I don't see the comparison either 420. What could be more different about these two aircraft? :)
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Considering the P-38 is an easymode fighter, not sure how that works out.
You're kidding.....right?
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You're kidding.....right?
Why would I? P-38 is cake to use in my experience and quite easy to kill with. The Ki-84 is a bit better defensively though.
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Considering the P-38 is an easymode fighter, not sure how that works out.
You have, obviously, never seen me fly one. :)
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Why would I? P-38 is cake to use in my experience and quite easy to kill with. The Ki-84 is a bit better defensively though.
Regardless of the opinion held about the aircraft, exclusively, the fact that it remains a large, flying bullseye would make up for any perceived ease of use.
I swear when I am in the B-38 (not a typo), the dweeby-types will break off from another A/C's dead six to come take a run at me.
I think Del said it best when he was flying the K4, one night a few months back: "I feel downright invisible in this thing."
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Yeah, I don't see the comparison either 420. What could be more different about these two aircraft? :)
Flaps and vertical ability.
As for the person that is complaining about being able to fly the Ki-84 and not the P-38, you're just doing something wrong and should go see a trainer for some help. Any move you can do in the Ki-84 you can easily pull off in the P-38, it's just knowing how to fly the P-38.
ack-ack
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Flaps and vertical ability.
As for the person that is complaining about being able to fly the Ki-84 and not the P-38, you're just doing something wrong and should go see a trainer for some help. Any move you can do in the Ki-84 you can easily pull off in the P-38, it's just knowing how to fly the P-38.
ack-ack
That was great help... :confused:
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That was great help... :confused:
I suggested the person go to a trainer and seek some assistance, how is that not helping? What better assistance than that of a trainer for someone that can't fly the P-38 very well?
ack-ack
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Why would I? P-38 is cake to use in my experience and quite easy to kill with. The Ki-84 is a bit better defensively though.
Quite easy to kill with if you pick all day long, yes. Getting low and slow stall fights with Spits, 109s, etc... not so easy. Succeeding, like myself sometimes (but I'm just lucky :rolleyes:), is even harder.
You have, obviously, never seen me fly one. :)
Come on Skuzzy..it can't be THAT bad!
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Quite easy to kill with if you pick all day long, yes. Getting low and slow stall fights with Spits, 109s, etc... not so easy. Succeeding, like myself sometimes (but I'm just lucky :rolleyes:), is even harder.
My first even landing of 8 kills was done with a P-38L, none of which was picking or vulching. It was in the canyons on the old Pizza map.
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* edit
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RUN when you get against an LA though, you can't outrun and can't outturn. Like I said, it doesn't uber excel in any of these categories.
Kidding? The LA doens't stand a chance in a 1 vs 1 against a Ki, it's only option is to run.
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If the Ki-84 were given the same treatment as other aircraft, given good materiels and good fuel - it will outperform any U.S. plane in just about every catagory except above 20k or so. . . and since we have so few fights up that high, it would become a true poney killer.
In IL2 they did this and it is arguably one of the best planes in that game, in here, its a little nurfed because the Japanese simply could not produce the good fuel needed. However, it did have self-sealing fuel tanks. . . which really helped a lot.
Its a great plane, and I would fly it more. . . but I am tying to master the Yak-9 right now. . .and thats going to take a long time.
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The good ki-84 sticks drain the fuel from the wings on transit to the fight :aok
SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :)
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Wow! Necro-bump on Wilbus' part!
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If the Ki-84 were given the same treatment as other aircraft, given good materiels and good fuel - it will outperform any U.S. plane in just about every catagory except above 20k or so. . . and since we have so few fights up that high, it would become a true poney killer.
In IL2 they did this and it is arguably one of the best planes in that game, in here, its a little nurfed because the Japanese simply could not produce the good fuel needed. However, it did have self-sealing fuel tanks. . . which really helped a lot.
Its a great plane, and I would fly it more. . . but I am tying to master the Yak-9 right now. . .and thats going to take a long time.
I've always wondered why the Ki is the only plane in game that was nerfed for fuel quality. Seems pretty BS to me. They didn't model the Komet's propensity for self-immolation, or the 262's crap stained engines.... As well, Japanese Avgas was of equal quality (around 130 octane) until mid 1944. The Ki84 first flew in 1943, March.
As well, I believe the American set is modeled with 150 octane (I could be wrong).... of which, though in production, wasn't available to the front (and very limited) until very late 1944. 130 Octane was used on most flights.
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Hello Wilbuz, :aok
Do you still have a copy of the movie Morpheus edited together, featuring your imba Ki-84 sortie? I lost my copy and back up copy. :(
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I've always wondered why the Ki is the only plane in game that was nerfed for fuel quality. Seems pretty BS to me. They didn't model the Komet's propensity for self-immolation, or the 262's crap stained engines.... As well, Japanese Avgas was of equal quality (around 130 octane) until mid 1944. The Ki84 first flew in 1943, March.
As well, I believe the American set is modeled with 150 octane (I could be wrong).... of which, though in production, wasn't available to the front (and very limited) until very late 1944. 130 Octane was used on most flights.
I don't think a single plane in game uses 150 grade fuel.
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Hello Wilbuz, :aok
Do you still have a copy of the movie Morpheus edited together, featuring your imba Ki-84 sortie? I lost my copy and back up copy. :(
not a very good backup then :D have you bought a new PC yet?
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Well I lost the backup lol. :S
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Wilbus where u been ?
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As well, I believe the American set is modeled with 150 octane (I could be wrong)....
If it were, the P-38s would be pulling 70" MAP, the P-51s 72" MAP.... No, the American aircraft are modeled for 100-130 avgas.
I think that a lightly perked 150 octane option would be nice, both for the USAAF and RAF fighters of that late-war period.
My regards,
Widewing
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I don't think a single plane in game uses 150 grade fuel.
Several in fact, but none of them are Allied. The 110C-4b and all the radial engined 190's use 150 grade fuel (German C3).
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If it were, the P-38s would be pulling 70" MAP, the P-51s 72" MAP.... No, the American aircraft are modeled for 100-130 avgas.
I think that a lightly perked 150 octane option would be nice, both for the USAAF and RAF fighters of that late-war period.
My regards,
Widewing
I stand corrected wide.. thank you.
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I've always wondered why the Ki is the only plane in game that was nerfed for fuel quality. Seems pretty BS to me. They didn't model the Komet's propensity for self-immolation, or the 262's crap stained engines.... As well, Japanese Avgas was of equal quality (around 130 octane) until mid 1944. The Ki84 first flew in 1943, March.
As well, I believe the American set is modeled with 150 octane (I could be wrong).... of which, though in production, wasn't available to the front (and very limited) until very late 1944. 130 Octane was used on most flights.
All Japanese aircraft are modeled with Japanese fuel, not just the Ki-84.
Likewise, other than the lack of 150 octane for late war USAAF and RAF fighters, all other aircraft are modeled with the appropriate fuels.
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All Japanese aircraft are modeled with Japanese fuel, not just the Ki-84.
Likewise, other than the lack of 150 octane for late war USAAF and RAF fighters, all other aircraft are modeled with the appropriate fuels.
this and the weak structure construction both make the KI-84 simply a Zero with more power. . . not the true monster it could be if it were built well (they were - but whatever) and given 130 fuel.
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Ultimatly the main advantage of flying the 84 is not the great turn rate, its climb rate, its roll rate or its very acarabatic handling in general but that you have your 2 cannons in the nose - which lets you put pretty powerful bullets quickly down the range with no convergance. Outside of that, its an ok plane at best and I understand why people fly the N1K2 more. . .
Uh... I thought the Ki84 had the cannons in the wings and the Ki61 had them in the nose?... (I could be wrong) And I like the Ki84 for its combination of turn rate and acceleration. You can turn hard in it, scrubbing off E, then accelerate to reclaim the E. Often times you can force an opponent to scrub his E off then gain an advantage by rebuilding yours faster then he can.
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Uh... I thought the Ki84 had the cannons in the wings and the Ki61 had them in the nose?... (I could be wrong) And I like the Ki84 for its cobination of turn rate and acceleration. You can turn hard in it, scrubbing off E, then accelerate to reclaim the E. Often times you can force an opponent to scrub his E off then gain an advantage by rebuilding yours faster then he can.
ok, I deleated my error - you are right and I fail. . .
anyway, I have written an e-mail to Busa (who got all the documents for the KI-84) and I wanted to add the stuff I found (since I am from Japan and am currently back home here) and see if it can be 'fixed' a little. . . namely its propensity to shed parts (thats gotta change) and its top speed (its a dream, but it should be a little higher - not much but enough to make it a match for any U.S. plane except the F4U). . . but thats just a matter of choising which historically real document to trust (the japanese say it does X, the Americans say Y and the post war tests say Z. . .and they are a little different) Anyway I don't want to get too much into the KI-84, it serves as a very sore point for me. :noid
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ok, I deleated my error - you are right and I fail. . .
anyway, I have written an e-mail to Busa (who got all the documents for the KI-84) and I wanted to add the stuff I found (since I am from Japan and am currently back home here) and see if it can be 'fixed' a little. . . namely its propensity to shed parts (thats gotta change) and its top speed (its a dream, but it should be a little higher - not much but enough to make it a match for any U.S. plane except the F4U). . . but thats just a matter of choising which historically real document to trust (the japanese say it does X, the Americans say Y and the post war tests say Z. . .and they are a little different) Anyway I don't want to get too much into the KI-84, it serves as a very sore point for me. :noid
I hope you get some of the improvements that you are seeking, as I absolutely love flying the Ki84. :salute
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I wish they'd redo the cockpit framing graphics. They look worse than the AH1 A6M or Mosquito.
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and give us the 2 x 30mms and the 4 x 20mms set ups while they are at it! :rock
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The 30mm version never saw service. Do not use Il-2 as a source of information. They add all sorts of "what if" versions of aircraft to that.
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The 30mm version never saw service. Do not use Il-2 as a source of information. They add all sorts of "what if" versions of aircraft to that.
And yet they refused to add the F4U-4....
:noid
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The 30mm version never saw service. Do not use Il-2 as a source of information. They add all sorts of "what if" versions of aircraft to that.
Never?
Where did you find that tidbit of information?
I've been looking around for awhile to find production # on specific versions of the KI-84 and can find none.
While I'll agree that I did find inferences that the "C" model was produced in the lowest #, I still found nothing that stated it never saw service.
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The 30mm version never saw service. Do not use Il-2 as a source of information. They add all sorts of "what if" versions of aircraft to that.
The Ki-84-Ic never saw service?
ack-ack
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The Ki-84-Ic never saw service?
ack-ack
Nope. Less than 10 built.
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Thought 94 were built with an unknown number of I's and II's that were slated to go under conversion?
ack-ack
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Thought 94 were built with an unknown number of I's and II's that were slated to go under conversion?
ack-ack
I haven't seen anything suggestion that many were made. I'd love to see your sourcing on that.
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Those complaining about the Ki-84 not having US-test-specs should realize that as-is it can still chase down most of the planeset (350mph on the deck!) and it climbs over 4000fpm up past 6k.
The ONLY flaw this plane has in-game is the shedding of parts (which, if we're going to do, let's start with zekes and other weaker planes as well!).
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And yet they refused to add the F4U-4....
:noid
They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?
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They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?
Somebody should really challenge that kind of crap in the courts. These aircraft are of no value except for their historical signficance, a history we all share. I don't think it is proper for any company to claim to own our history like that, particularly when they showed no interest in doing anything with their "property" for so long and until others did find something to do with it.
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They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?
That's a joke, American greed at it's best...
Are we referring to HTC "refusing" to add any new American A/C.
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The same thing has been going on with plastic models.Our local hobby shop had news paper articles posted about this.The last I heard the court ruled it was a goverment contract that was full filled and no royalty needed to be paid.I could ask my buddy that works there what has been going on with the situation lately.
Speaking of Greed...Hey Kaz hows it going with Parliment?Were they not putting everything imagineable on theyre expense account including sex tapes also someone having theyre "moat" dredged and what have ya.Charging it all to the tax payers?Smashing Wat!Rite! :aok
Pipz
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Those complaining about the Ki-84 not having US-test-specs should realize that as-is it can still chase down most of the planeset (350mph on the deck!) and it climbs over 4000fpm up past 6k.
The ONLY flaw this plane has in-game is the shedding of parts (which, if we're going to do, let's start with zekes and other weaker planes as well!).
Max speed on the deck is the same as the P-38J/L: 344 mph. However, the Ki-84 only has WEP in bursts of 90 seconds, meaning that it cannot sustain that speed constantly. Thus, it isn't going to keep up with a P-38J over 5 minutes.
As to "shedding of parts", the limitation is related to Indicated Air Speed. Offline, I've had the Ki-84 up to 556 mph TAS without breaking anything. You don't want to exceed about 490 mph IAS at any altitude. The image below shows 475 IAS at 10,300 feet. This is the speed where the Ki-84 begins to buffet, but is still quite controllable. Just remember to trim manually for high speeds. Obviously, the higher you are, the less risk of aero-loading the airplane to failure. The combination of g loading and aerodynamic loading is the usual culprit in breaking the Hayate. I refer to this equation as stupid2.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Ki-84-HighSpeed.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Somebody should really challenge that kind of crap in the courts. These aircraft are of no value except for their historical signficance, a history we all share. I don't think it is proper for any company to claim to own our history like that, particularly when they showed no interest in doing anything with their "property" for so long and until others did find something to do with it.
It's the same with car games and shooters too; car/weapon game models based on real cars/weapons has to be "licensed" by the manufacturer.
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It's the same with car games and shooters too; car/weapon game models based on real cars/weapons has to be "licensed" by the manufacturer.
This does not apply to any material or equipment contracted for and manufactured for the use of the United States Government. Moreover, some courts have also ruled that there must be evidence that the manufacturer suffers financial loss. Back in the 1930s and 40's virtually all government contracts for military hardware stipulated that the government owned the design, tooling and engineering drawings. Once declared obsolescent and or declassified, these rights transferred to the public domain.
My regards,
Widewing
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When did that court ruling take place? Sounds wonderful if it is fact.
Here's the Boeing intellectual property licensing contract (notice the list of aircraft it covers):
effective as of ______________
is entered into by and between Boeing Management Company (hereinafter
referred to as "Licensor") having an office and place of business in
Seal Beach, California and (hereinafter referred to as "Licensee")
having an office and place of business in , California.
RECITALS
WHEREAS Licensor is the owner of certain valuable trademarks which it
has used and continues to use on goods including aircraft and
aircraft parts, models of aircraft, and a wide variety of other
items,
WHEREAS Licensor is the owner of certain drawings, technical
information and expertise, images, and/or artwork of interest to
Licensee and has advised and/or may in the future advise Licensee
regarding the application of Boeing trademarks, images, and artwork
to Licensee's products, and
WHEREAS Licensee desires to utilize certain of Licensor's trade
names, trademarks, drawings, technical information and expertise,
advice, images, and/or artwork upon and in connection with the
design, manufacture, sale, and distribution of Licensee's products as
hereinafter described;
AGREEMENTS
NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the premises, benefits, and mutual
covenants herein contained, and other good and valuable
consideration, the parties hereby agree as follows:
1. GRANT OF LICENSE.
a. Trademarks. Subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter
set forth, Licensor hereby grants to Licensee, and Licensee hereby
accepts, a nonexclusive, nontransferable license to use the
trademarks listed in Attachment A to this Agreement and incorporated
herein by reference (hereinafter referred to as "Licensed Marks")
upon, and in connection with the packaging, distribution,
advertising, promotion, and sale of, Articles as hereinafter defined.
b. Other Intellectual Property. Subject to the terms and
conditions hereinafter set forth, Licensor hereby grants to Licensee,
and Licensee hereby accepts, a nonexclusive, nontransferable license
to use, for the sole purpose of assisting Licensee in the design,
manufacture, sale, and/or distribution of Articles under this
Agreement, any artwork, drawings, technical information, know-how,
and advice provided or otherwise made available to Licensee in
accordance with section 2. of this Agreement together with a
nonexclusive license under any copyrights and/or designs owned by
Licensor therein (hereinafter referred to as "Other Intellectual
Property").
c. Articles. The license hereby granted extends only (i) to the
use of Licensed Marks on products listed in the Approval Log referred
to in subsection 1.d. below (hereinafter called "Articles") and in
connection with the packaging, distribution, advertising, promotion,
and sale thereof and (ii) to the use of Other Intellectual Property
in connection with Articles.
d. Approval Log. The approval log (hereinafter referred to as
the "Approval Log") set forth as Attachment B to this Agreement and
incorporated herein by reference lists all of the Articles that have
been reviewed and approved by Licensor, and this Agreement will be
revised periodically by Licensor in writing to update Attachment B
and maintain a current Approval Log as additional Articles are
approved. Licensee will not sell, offer for sale, or in any way
distribute any Article not listed in the then-current Approval Log.
e. Territory. The territory of the license hereby granted is
worldwide.
f. Distribution Channels. In recognition of the need to focus
Licensee's sales efforts on those distribution channels for which
Licensee has, or is developing expertise, Licensee agrees to sell the
Articles only through the distribution channels indicated in
Attachment C to this Agreement.
Term. The term of this Agreement and the license hereby granted will
begin on the effective date hereinabove set forth and, except as
provided in section 7 – Cancellation, will remain in full force and
effect thereafter unless and until terminated by written notice from
either party to the other. Any notice of termination given pursuant
to this section 1g. will specify the effective date of the
termination, provided such date shall be not less than ninety (90)
days from the date of the termination notice.
Pricing. Nothing contained in this Agreement shall be deemed to
imply any restriction on Licensee's freedom or that of its customers
to set prices for the Articles as Licensee or its customers
reasonably deem advisable to maintain a competitive position in the
marketplace.
2. OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
Subject to the terms and conditions of this section, Licensor has
provided, and/or may from time to time and within Licensor's sole and
absolute discretion provide, to Licensee certain items of Other
Intellectual Property. All Other Intellectual Property will be used
by Licensee only in accordance with subsection 1.b. of this Agreement
or for such other purposes as may be specifically authorized by
Licensor in writing.
From time to time, Licensee may submit a request to obtain Other
Intellectual Property from Licensor. Upon receipt of such request,
Licensor will review and evaluate the request. At its sole and
absolute discretion, Licensor will respond to the request by either:
(i) providing an offer that contains (a) a description of the Other
Intellectual Property, (b) a fee (in addition to any royalty amounts
specified in section 4 – Royalties and Licensee Fees), (c) a delivery
schedule, and (d) any other applicable terms and conditions; or (ii)
advising Licensee of Licensor's denial of such request or inability
to provide such Other Intellectual Property.
All Other Intellectual Property, and any copies of such Other
Intellectual Property, are exclusively owned by and reserved to
Licensor. Licensee will preserve and protect all Other Intellectual
Property in confidence and will not use, copy, or disclose, nor
permit any of its personnel to use, copy, or disclose the same for
any purpose that is not specifically authorized under this
Agreement. The individual copies of all Other Intellectual Property
are provided to Licensee subject to copyrights therein, and all such
copyrights are retained by Licensor or, in some cases, by third
parties. Licensee is authorized to make copies of Other Intellectual
Property (except for such materials bearing copyright legend of a
third party), provided, however, Licensee preserves any restrictive
legends and proprietary notices on all copies.
As specified under this section and upon giving prior written notice
to Licensor, Licensee is authorized to provide and disclose Other
Intellectual Property to a third party that is appointed by Licensee
to perform work on or related to the design, manufacture, sale,
and/or distribution of Articles under this Agreement (hereinafter
referred to as "Contractor"). Before providing Other Intellectual
Property to a Contractor of Licensee, Licensee will obtain a written
agreement from Contractor (i) to use the Other Intellectual Property
only on behalf of Licensee, (ii) to be bound by all the restrictions
and limitations of this section, and (iii) that Licensor is an
intended third-party beneficiary under such agreement. Licensee
agrees to provide copies of all such written agreements to Licensor,
and to be liable to Licensor for any breach of those agreements by
Contractor. A form of agreement, acceptable to Licensor, is attached
as Attachment E.
Upon cancellation or termination of this Agreement, Licensee will not
use or cause to be used any Other Intellectual Property. Within ten
(10) days of written notice to Licensee by Licensor, and in
accordance with the direction received by Licensor, Licensee will
either (i) return all copies of the Other Intellectual Property
including partial copies or modifications to Licensor postage
prepaid, or (ii) certify to Licensor, by a duly authorized officer of
Licensee, that all copies of the Other Intellectual Property
including partial copies or modifications have been destroyed.
-
3. USE OF LICENSED MARKS.
a. Licensee agrees to use Licensed Marks only in a manner and
form approved by Licensor. Licensee will be responsible for
obtaining Licensor's prior written approval of the manner and form of
any such trademark usage and any change in such usage. As and when
appropriate, Licensed Marks, when used by Licensee, will be marked
with a ® or Ô in accordance with Attachment A.
Licensee agrees that any application or use of the Licensed Marks by
Licensee on any Articles, or upon any packaging or advertising of
such Articles, will be in a form approved by Licensor.
Licensee agrees not to use, in conjunction with the Licensed Marks,
any of Licensee's trade names or trademarks, or any third party's
trade names or trademarks, on any packaging, advertising, promotion,
or Article without the express written consent of Licensor.
Licensee agrees not to use any Licensed Marks, or any trademark
incorporating all or any part of a Licensed Mark, on any business
sign, business cards, stationery or forms.
e. Licensee hereby acknowledges Licensor's present and future
ownership rights in the Licensed Marks and agrees that any and all
use of Licensed Marks by Licensee will be on behalf of Licensor and
will accrue solely to the benefit of Licensor. Licensee agrees not
to challenge or contest Licensor's ownership of the Licensed Marks
and Other Intellectual Property. Licensee further agrees that it
will not use Licensed Marks as part of Licensee's own trademarks or
trade names, nor on or in connection with Articles carrying any third-
party trademarks or trade names, and Licensee will retain no right to
use Licensed Marks after the termination or cancellation of this
Agreement.
f. Licensee agrees that all Articles under this Agreement will
meet Licensor's quality standards; and Licensee will periodically, at
Licensor's request and Licensee's expense, make samples of Articles,
packaging for Articles, and advertising copy and promotional
materials, including, but not limited to, catalogs and web pages,
relating to Articles available to Licensor for inspection. Licensee
warrants to Licensor that all Articles, prior to distribution or
sale, shall conform in materials and specifications to the
corresponding samples reviewed and approved by Licensor.
g. It is agreed that Licensor will, in all cases, be the sole
judge in determining the acceptability of both the quality of
Articles and the manner and form of trademark usage in connection
therewith, and Licensee agrees not to use any Licensed Marks or sell
any Articles in connection with Licensed Marks where the quality or
manner and form of usage is not acceptable to Licensor.
4. ROYALTIES AND LICENSE FEES.
a. Initial Fee. Licensee will pay, to Licensor, upon the
execution of this Agreement, a one-time, non-refundable initial fee
of one thousand dollars ($1000.00), which will not be considered an
advanced royalty payment or be applied against any future royalty
obligation.
b. Royalty Fee. For each Article sold by Licensee under this
Agreement which utilizes one or more of the Licensed Marks, either on
the Article itself or in connection with the packaging, distribution,
advertising, promotion, or sale of the Article, and/or which is based
on or subject to any Other Intellectual Property under this
Agreement, Licensee will pay to Licensor a royalty of:
(i) 0% on Articles sold to Licensor, to any related company of
Licensor, or to the United States government,
(ii) 0% on Articles for which a royalty has already been paid by a
licensee of Boeing Management Company who is prior to Licensee in the
distribution chain for the Articles in question, provided that
Licensor has previously confirmed, to Licensee, the prior licensee's
status and that the prior licensee is identified by Licensee in the
relevant royalty report, and
4% on Articles sold to any other customer of Licensee.
In the event the royalties paid to Licensor for use of the Licensed
Marks on Articles during any calendar year, commencing from the date
that Licensor executes this Agreement, fails to aggregate to a
minimum payment of on thousand dollars ($1000.00), Licensee will,
within thirty days after the last calendar quarter of the applicable
calendar year, pay to Licensor such additional sums as may be
necessary to bring the minimum payment for such use of Licensed Marks
up to one thousand dollars ($1000.00).
c. The royalty fee will apply to the net sales price of
Articles, and the term "net sales price" as used herein means
Licensee's invoiced price (exclusive of prepaid freight charges, if
any, included therein and without allowance for cash discounts or
other deductions) of Articles sold to the customer at the next level
of distribution.
d. Articles will be considered sold and the royalty due when the
Articles are first invoiced or delivered or paid for, whichever
occurs first. Suitable adjustments may be made against future
payments due under this Agreement in the event that Articles for
which a royalty payment has already been made to Licensor are
returned to Licensee for credit.
5. PAYMENTS AND REPORTS
a. Royalty payments due hereunder will be made by Licensee to
Licensor within thirty (30) days after the end of each calendar
quarter (hereinafter referred to as the "Payment Deadline") for the
calendar quarter just ended. Calendar quarters, for purposes of this
Agreement, end with the last day of March, June, September, and
December. All payments not received by Licensor on or before the
Payment Deadline will accrue interest on the average daily unpaid
balance, from the date of such Payment Deadline until the payment in
question is actually received by Licensor, at the prime interest rate
as quoted in the Wall Street Journal on the first business day
following the Payment Deadline, plus two percent. Licensee shall
also pay, to Licensor, on demand (i) the amount of any costs
(including attorneys' fees) incurred by Licensor in collecting any
amounts due Licensor under this Agreement and (ii) interest at the
rate specified above if such costs are not received by Licensor
within five days after such demand has been communicated to
Licensee. Licensor will be entitled to apply any amounts paid by
Licensee towards the payment of interest due prior to applying the
amount paid to reduce the amount of royalties due.
b. All payments made hereunder will be in U.S. dollars. When
the royalty payment to Licensor is calculated based on a currency
other than U.S. currency, the payment to Licensor will be calculated
by using the free rate of exchange of such other currency to U.S.
dollars as quoted by Citibank, N.A. for the last business day of the
calendar quarter in which such royalties accrued.
c. Licensee will submit, to Licensor on or before the last day
of the month following the end of each calendar quarter, a written
royalty report in a form substantially in accordance with Attachment
D to this Agreement which is incorporated herein by reference. The
report will set forth in detail the quantity and prices of sales by
Licensee of Articles during the calendar quarter just ended
(including those sales to which a 0% royalty rate applies),a
calculation of the royalty payments due for such period, and the
identification of the countries of which the Articles were sold. If
no sales of Articles were made during the calendar quarter being
reported, then the report will so state.
d. All reports required under this section will be sent by mail,
postage prepaid, to the address shown below:
Boeing Business Services Company
Attention: Trademark Licensing Manager
P.O. Box 3707, M/C 14-84
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
e. Licensee agrees to submit a written forecast to Licensor
along with the royalty report that is owed for the fourth quarter of
each calendar year. Said forecast will provide Licensor with an
estimate of the Articles that are projected to be sold within the
next three (3) calendar years. Licensor will use the forecast
provided for planning purposes only, and such forecast will in no way
obligate Licensee to the forecast provided.
f. Licensee may make quarterly payments to Licensor by check
sent to the address shown below:
Boeing Business Services Company
Accounts Receivable, M/C 1F-31
P.O. Box 3707
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
Reference Number: [ USE LICENSE AGREEMENT NO.]
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6. RECORDS AND AUDIT RIGHTS
a. Licensee agrees to maintain complete, accurate, and up-to-
date records for purposes of reporting sales and calculating payments
under this Agreement. Records will be maintained for five (5) years
beyond the date on which the record was created. Licensee will
permit authorized agents or representatives of Licensor to inspect
and make copies of such records, at any reasonable times during
business hours, to verify the records, reports, and royalty amounts
due Licensor hereunder. Licensor will provide at least five (5) days
written notice to Licensee prior to such audits at which time
Licensee will be prepared to make its records available and
accessible to Licensor. Licensor will bear any costs and expenses
(excluding Licensee's) associated with such audit, except that in the
event the results of any audit show the amounts payable to Licensor
are greater by five (5) percentage points than the amounts reported
and paid to Licensor for the audited period, then Licensee (i) will
pay Licensor for costs and expenses associated with such audit, and
(ii) pay Licensor all amounts determined to be owed to Licensor with
interest as calculated in section 5(a). Such amounts will be paid to
Licensor by Licensee within thirty (30) days of Licensee's receipt of
written notice from Licensor.
Agents or representatives of Licensor will also have the right to
verify Licensee's (i) use of Licensed Marks are within the scope of
the grant in section 1 – Grant of License; (ii) compliance with its
obligations to use and protect Licensor's Other Intellectual Property
as set forth in section 2 – Other Intellectual Property; and (iii)
compliance with the manner and form of trademark usage and quality of
Articles.
Licensor will have the right to conduct audits associated with this
section subsequent to any effective date of termination or
cancellation of this Agreement.
7. CANCELLATION.
a. In the event that Licensee fails to perform or otherwise
breaches any obligation under section 3. of this Agreement, or in the
event that Licensee fails to perform or otherwise breaches any other
provision of this Agreement and fails to remedy such breach within
thirty (30) days of receipt of written notice thereof, or in the
event that Licensee discontinues business, becomes insolvent, has a
receiver appointed, goes into liquidation, or becomes party to any
action relating to the bankruptcy or insolvency of Licensee which is
instituted and not dismissed within thirty (30) days, or in the event
of the failure of Licensee's trustee in bankruptcy or Licensee as a
debtor in possession to assume this Agreement within sixty (60) days
after the filing of a bankruptcy petition; then Licensor will have
the option to either (i) terminate all of Licensee's rights and
Licensor's unperformed obligations with respect to this Agreement
effective immediately upon written notice to Licensee or (ii)
continue this Agreement in full force and effect without waiving any
rights or remedies of Licensor. Licensee agrees to promptly notify
Licensor of the occurrence of any of the events set forth in this
subsection 7.a. relating to Licensee's continuing business operations
or financial condition.
b. Cancellation of this Agreement or termination pursuant to any
of its provisions will not relieve Licensee of its obligations
incurred prior to such termination or cancellation, will not preclude
or limit any of Licensor's rights or remedies as set forth in other
sections of this Agreement or provided by law in the event of default
or breach by Licensee, and will not preclude or limit Licensor in
seeking and obtaining damages or other relief from Licensee. Upon
termination or cancellation of this Agreement by Licensor, royalties
accrued up to and including the effective date of such termination or
cancellation will be immediately due and owing to Licensor by
Licensee.
c. Licensor will not be liable to Licensee for damages of any
kind, including, without limitation, incidental or consequential
damages, on account of the cancellation of this Agreement in
accordance with this section 7. Licensee expressly waives any right
it might otherwise have to receive any compensation or reparations on
termination or cancellation of this Agreement. Licensor will not be
liable to Licensee, on account of termination or cancellation of this
Agreement, for reimbursement or damages for loss of goodwill,
prospective profits or anticipated orders, or on account of any
expenditures, investments or commitments made by Licensor or Licensee
or for any other reason whatsoever based upon or arising out of such
termination or cancellation.
d. In the event that this Agreement expires or is terminated by
Licensor pursuant to subsection 7.a. hereof, Licensee will promptly
destroy all Articles, packaging, and promotional materials in
Licensee's possession or control which carry any of the Licensed
Marks unless Licensor has agreed in writing to an alternative
disposition thereof.
8. INFRINGEMENTS BY THIRD PARTIES.
Licensee will promptly notify Licensor of any infringement or
suspected infringement of any of the Licensed Marks, and Licensee
will not communicate with any infringer or suspected infringer
without obtaining the prior written approval of Licensor. Licensor
will have the exclusive right to sue infringers of Licensed Marks
and/or Licensor's rights in Other Intellectual Property, and Licensee
will have no claim to the proceeds of any such lawsuits or
settlements related thereto. Licensor will have the sole right to
determine whether or not to sue, and failure to sue will not affect
Licensee's obligations under this Agreement. Licensee will, upon the
request of Licensor and at Licensor's expense, assist Licensor in the
investigation of, and any legal action related to, any such
infringement.
9. SUPPORT AND ASSISTANCE OF LICENSEE.
In the event that Licensor desires or attempts to obtain additional
registrations for Licensed Marks in any country, or to record or
cancel the recording of this Agreement in any country, Licensee will
support Licensor's efforts in that regard and, at Licensor's request
and expense, assist Licensor in all respects including, but not
limited to, the providing of information, the preparation and making
of affidavits, and the execution of documents. Licensee will not,
however, seek to register any of the Licensed Marks in any
jurisdiction unless specifically requested in writing by Licensor.
10. REFERENCE TO BOEING.
Licensee will not, without the prior written approval of Licensor,
make reference to Boeing, Boeing Management Company, The Boeing
Company, this Agreement, or any relationship between Licensor and
Licensee, in the promotion, sale, or distribution of Articles.
11. DISCLAIMER.
LICENSOR MAKES NO WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED,
ARISING BY LAW OR OTHERWISE, WITH RESPECT TO LICENSED MARKS, OTHER
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, OR ANY OTHER THING PROVIDED TO LICENSEE UNDER
THIS AGREEMENT. LICENSOR SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS, AND LICENSEE AGREES
THAT LICENSOR WILL HAVE NO OBLIGATION OR LIABILITY FOR, ANY: (A)
IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY; (B) IMPLIED WARRANTY OF FITNESS
FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE; (C) IMPLIED WARRANTY ARISING FROM COURSE OF
PERFORMANCE, COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE; (D) IMPLIED
WARRANTY OF TITLE; (E) CLAIM OF INFRINGEMENT; (F) CLAIM UNDER FEDERAL
OR STATE TRADEMARK LAWS, FEDERAL COPYRIGHT LAWS, PATENT LAWS, OR ANY
OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OR UNFAIR COMPETITION LAWS; OR (G)
OBLIGATION, LIABILITY, RIGHT, CLAIM OR REMEDY IN TORT, WHETHER OR NOT
ARISING IN WHOLE OR IN PART FROM LICENSOR'S NEGLIGENCE (WHETHER
ACTIVE, PASSIVE, OR IMPUTED), FAULT, STRICT LIABILITY OR PRODUCT
LIABILITY.
12. WAIVER AND RELEASE BY LICENSEE.
LICENSEE WAIVES, RELEASES AND RENOUNCES (A) ALL WARRANTIES,
OBLIGATIONS AND LIABILITIES OF LICENSOR, AND RIGHTS, CLAIMS AND
REMEDIES OF LICENSEE AGAINST LICENSOR, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, ARISING BY
LAW OR OTHERWISE, WITH RESPECT TO LICENSED MARKS, OTHER INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY, OR ANY OTHER THING PROVIDED TO LICENSEE UNDER THIS
AGREEMENT, OR ANY ANTICIPATED, ATTEMPTED OR ACTUAL USE OF LICENSED
MARKS, OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, OR ANY OTHER THING PROVIDED TO
LICENSEE UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WHETHER OR NOT ARISING FROM THE
NEGLIGENCE OF LICENSOR (WHETHER ACTIVE, PASSIVE, OR IMPUTED), (B) ALL
RIGHTS, CLAIMS AND REMEDIES FOR ANY ACTUAL OR ALLEGED INFRINGEMENT OF
ANY THIRD-PARTY RIGHT ARISING FROM LICENSEE'S MANUFACTURE, SALE, USE,
OR DISTRIBUTION OF ARTICLES, AND (C) ALL RIGHTS, CLAIMS, AND REMEDIES
ARISING FROM ANY FAULT OR DEFECT IN ANY ARTICLE MADE IN ACCORDANCE
WITH, OR OTHERWISE RESULTING FROM, ANY LICENSED MARKS, OTHER
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, OR ANY OTHER THING PROVIDED TO LICENSEE UNDER
THIS AGREEMENT, WHETHER ARISING IN WHOLE OR IN PART FROM THE
NEGLIGENCE OF LICENSOR (WHETHER ACTIVE, PASSIVE, OR IMPUTED).
13. EXCLUSION OF CONSEQUENTIAL AND OTHER DAMAGES.
LICENSOR AND LICENSEE SPECIFICALLY AGREE THAT LICENSOR WILL HAVE NO
OBLIGATION OR LIABILITY, WHETHER ARISING IN CONTRACT (INCLUDING,
WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTY), TORT (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION,
ACTIVE, PASSIVE OR IMPUTED NEGLIGENCE OR STRICT LIABILITY), OR
OTHERWISE, FOR LOSS OF USE, REVENUE OR PROFIT, OR FOR ANY OTHER
DIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES WITH RESPECT TO ANY
LICENSED MARKS, OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, OR ANY OTHER THING
PROVIDED TO LICENSEE UNDER THIS AGREEMENT.
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14. INDEMNITY AND INSURANCE.
a. Obligation to Indemnify Licensor. Licensee will defend,
indemnify and hold harmless Licensor, its related companies, and the
directors, officers, employees and agents of Licensor and each
related company from and against all actions, causes of action,
liabilities, claims, suits, judgments, liens, awards, and damages, of
any kind or nature whatsoever, for economic loss, property damage,
personal injury or death (including, without limitation, claims
brought by employees of Licensee) and expenses, costs of litigation,
and reasonable attorney's fees related thereto, or incident to
establishing the right to indemnification, arising out of or in any
way related to Articles, whether or not arising out of the
negligence of Licensor, whether active, passive or imputed. To the
extent of this indemnity, Licensee expressly waives any employer
immunity or protection provided by the worker's compensation or
industrial insurance laws of any applicable state or jurisdiction.
Licensee's obligations under this section 14. will survive any
cancellation or termination of this Agreement. For purposes of this
Agreement a "related company" means any corporation or other business
entity in which Licensor owns or controls at least 50% of the voting
interest, as well as Licensor's parent company, The Boeing Company.
b. Insurance Requirements. Licensee will carry, and maintain
throughout the term of this Agreement, commercial general liability
insurance with available limits of not less than two million dollars
($2,000,000) per occurrence for economic loss, personal injury,
bodily injury, including death, and damage to property. Such
insurance will be in an occurrence form and with insurers acceptable
to Licensor and contain coverage for contractual liability
(including, without limitation, that specifically assumed under
subsection 14.a. herein), and products liability with available
limits of not less than two million dollars ($2,000,000) per
occurrence. Any policy which provides the insurance required under
this subsection 14.b. will: (i) be endorsed to name "Boeing
Management Company, its related companies, and their respective
directors, officers, agents, and employees" as additional insured
(hereinafter "Additional Insured") with respect to liability arising
out of the use or sale by Licensee of any Articles, or the use by
Licensee of any Licensed Marks, Other Intellectual Property, or other
thing delivered under this Agreement; (ii) be endorsed to be primary
to and noncontributory with any insurance maintained by, or on behalf
of, Boeing Management Company; (iii) provide a waiver of any rights
of subrogation against the Additional Insured; and (iv) contain a
severability of interest provision in favor of the Additional Insured.
c. Certificates of Insurance. Prior to any sale of Articles
under this Agreement, Licensee will provide for Licensor's review and
approval, certificates of insurance, referencing this Agreement,
reflecting full compliance with the requirements set forth in
subsections 14.a. and 14.b. above. A form of certificate, acceptable
to Licensor, is attached as Attachment F. During the term of the
Agreement, annual renewal certificates will be submitted to Licensor
before the expiration of the then-current policy ends. Subsequent to
cancellation or termination of the Agreement, Licensee will submit
annual renewal certificates for two (2) years thereafter (for
products and completed operations liability). The failure of
Licensor to demand compliance with this section 14 in any year will
not in any way relieve Licensee of its obligations hereunder nor
constitute a waiver by Licensor of these obligations. Such
certificates will provide for thirty (30) days advance written notice
to Licensor in the event of cancellation or material change adversely
affecting the interests of Licensor, its related companies, or the
directors, officers or employees of each.
15. RELATIONSHIP OF PARTIES.
Nothing in this Agreement will be construed to place the parties in
the relationship of partners, joint venturers, franchisor and
franchisee, or principal and agent; and Licensee will have no power
to obligate or bind Licensor in any manner whatsoever.
16. NOTICES.
All notices for which provision is made herein will, in the case of
Licensee, be addressed to and, in the case of Licensor, be addressed
to: Vice President, Contracts & Business Operations, Boeing Business
Services Company, PO Box 3707, Mail Code 14-84, Seattle, Washington
98124-2207 or to such other address as the addressee party may from
time to time designate by notice in writing to the other party. All
notices hereunder will be in writing and, if so addressed and sent by
registered mail, will be presumed to have been received on or before
the fifth day after the day upon which posted.
17. ASSIGNMENT.
This Agreement will benefit and be binding upon each of the parties
hereto and their respective successors and assigns; but Licensee
shall not voluntarily or by operation of law assign, sub-license,
transfer, encumber or otherwise dispose of all or any part of
Licensee's interest in this Agreement without Licensor's prior
written consent, to be granted or withheld in Licensor's absolute
discretion. Any attempted assignment, sub-license, transfer,
encumbrance or other disposal without such consent shall be void and
shall constitute a material default and breach of this Agreement. A
transfer within the meaning of this section 17 shall include any
merger or consolidation involving Licensee's company or its parent
(if any); any sale or transfer of all or substantially all of
Licensee's (or its parent's) assets; and any transfer of Licensee's
rights hereunder to a division, business segment or other entity of
Licensee. Licensor may assign this Agreement to any of its related
companies. This Agreement and the license hereby granted are
personal to Licensee for all purposes, and Licensee may not grant
sublicenses under this Agreement.
18. TAXES.
a. Licensee will reimburse Licensor (net of any additional taxes
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MODEL 247
MODEL 294
MODEL 299
MODEL 307
MODEL 314
MODEL 345-2-1
MODEL 367
MODEL 367-80
MODEL 377
707 â
717â
MODEL 720, MODEL 720B
727â
737â
747â
757â
767â
777â
A-17
A1-H
A-1 SKYRAIDER
A-2
A-20
A-24
A-26
A-3
A-36
A3D
A2J
A3J
A-4
A-4 SKYHAWK
A4D
A-5
AD-6
AGM-86 CRUISE MISSILE
AH-64
AJ-1
APACHEâ
APACHE LONGBOWâ
APOLLO SPACECRAFT
ARPA Hibex
AT-6
AV-8B
AV-8B HARRIER II
AWACS
B & W
B-1 Model 6
B-1E
B-17
B-18
B-19
B-1B
B-25
B-25 MITCHELL
B-26
B-29
B-45
B-47
RB-47
XB-47
EB-47 (A, B, E, G, J, K)
B-50
B-50A
B-50B
B-50D
B-52
EB-52
RB-52
SB-52
YB-52 (A-H)
B-66
B-70
B-9
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C-47
C-53
C-54
C-74 GLOBEMASTER
C-75
C-9
C-97
CARGOMASTER
CAYUSE
CH-46
CH-46A
CH-46D
CH-46E
CH-47
CH-47A
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CLOUDSTER
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COMMUTER
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CORPORATE 77
DAKOTA
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DAUNTLESS
D-558-2 SKYROCKET
D-5581 SKYSTREAK
DB-7
DC-1
DC-10â
DC-2
DC-3
DC-4
DC-5
DC-6
DC-7
DC-8â
DC-9â
DELTA
DELTA II
DELTA III
DELTA IV
DEMON
DESTROYER
DEVASTATOR
DH-4
DOLPHIN
DOODLEBUG
DOUGLAS
DOUGLAS WORLD CRUISER
DRAGON
DT-1
DT-2
E-3
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E-6
EAGLE
EXECUTIVE
EXTENDER
F/A-18
F/A-18 C/D **
F/A-18C *
F/A-18D *
F/A-18 E/F **
F/A-18Eâ *
F/A-18F *
F/A-18 C/D HORNET **
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F-100
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F-101
F-15â
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F-15 EAGLE
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F-18
F2H
F3B
F3D
F3H
F-4
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F4B-4
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F-82
F-86
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FB
FB-5
FH-1
FJ
FLYING FORTRESS
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FURY
GAM-77
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GAPA
GEMINI SPACE CAPSULE
GLOBEMASTER II
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HARVARD
HAVOC
HERMES
HORNET
HOUND DOG
HSCT
HIGH SPEED CIVIL TRANSPORT
IM-99A
IM-99B
INVADER
IUS
JUMBO JET
KAYDET
KC-10
KC-135
L-15
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LANCER
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LUNAR ROVING VEHICLE
MARINER 10
MCDONNELL
MCDONNELL DOUGLAS
MD-10
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MD-80
MD-81
MD-82
MD-83
MD-87
MD-88
MD-90
MERCURY SPACE CAPSULE
MH-47
MINUTEMAN
MINUTEMAN 1
MINUTEMAN 11
MINUTEMAN 111
MITCHELL
MODEL 15
MODEL 40
MODEL 40A
MODEL 40B
MODEL 40C
MODEL 50
MODEL 75
MODEL 79
MODEL 80
MODEL 95
MODEL 96
MODEL 119
MODEL 120
MODEL 200
MODEL 220
MODEL 221
MODEL 234
MODEL 502
MODEL C
MONOMAIL
MUSTANG
NA-16
NA-21
NA-49
NA-73
NAVAJO
NAVION
NIGHTINGALE
NIKE MISSILE
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NIKE HERCULES
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NJ-1
NORTH AMERICAN AVIATION
NOMAD
O-2
O-46A
O-47
OH-6
ORBITER I
OSPREY
OV-10
P-12
P-26
P-26 PEASHOOTER
P-51
P-51 MUSTANG
P-64
P-82
P-86
PB-1
PBJ
PEASHOOTER
PHANTOM
PHANTOM II
POLAR STAR
PT-13
PT-17
PW-9
R4D
R5D
RA-5C
RAH-66
RC-135
REDSTONE
ROCKETDYNE
SABRE
SABRELINER
SATURN
SATURN S-1C
SATURN S-11
SATURN S-NB
SATURN V
SAVAGE
SBD
SBD DAUNTLESS
SCOUT
SEA KNIGHT
SEA RANGER
SENTRY
SINBAD
SKYHAWK
SKYKNIGHT
SKYLAB
SKYMASTER
SKYRAIDER
SKYRAY
SKYTRAIN
SKYTRAIN II
SKYTROOPER
SKYWARRIOR
SNJ
SRAM
SST
SUPER SONIC TRANSPORT
STILETTO
STRATOCRUISER
STRATOFORTRESS
STRATOFREIGHTER
STRATOJET
STRATOLINER
STRATOTANKER
STEARMAN
STRIKE EAGLE
SUPER HORNET
SUPER SABRE
SUPERFORTRESS
T-2
T2D-1
T2J
T-28
T-39
T-43
T-45
T-6
T-6 TEXAN
TACAMO
TBD
TB-1
TEXAN
THOR
TORNADO
TROJAN
TWIN MUSTANG
V-22
V-22 OSPREY
VALKYRIE
VC-25
VC-118
VC-137
VERTOL
VIGILANTE
VOODOO
X-15
X-3
X-31
X-32
X-33
X-36
XA-21
XB-15
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XB-28
XB-42
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XB-70
XC-105
XF6B-1
SF7B-1
XF8B-1
XF-85
XFV-12A
XH-17 FLYING CRANE
XH-20
XHJD-1WHIRLAWAY
XP3D-2
XP-67
XP-9
XV-1 CONVERTIPLANE
XV-9A HOT CYCLE
YALE
YAB-7
YC-15 AMST
YC-14
YC-15
Y1B-7
Y1B-9
YF-93
Trademarks in the product configurations for the aircraft identified
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When did that court ruling take place? Sounds wonderful if it is fact.
Here's the Boeing intellectual property licensing contract (notice the list of aircraft it covers):
I forget the specific case, but it was a decision rendered by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Boeing has threatened suit many times, even going as low as sending a threatening letter to a well known aviation artist for painting a B-17, which was then sold for profit as prints. They demanded a licensing fee. This gentleman had his attorney respond, stating that Boeing had no right to demand a license, and invited a suit. Boeing never responded, their bluff called... Boeing's problem is that there are no trademarks, no patents or copyrights in place for these vintage aircraft. I believe that they fail to meet the criteria for either. Moreover, the Government owns the rights to many of these aircraft designs. The image of an aircraft is intellectual property of the artist. If Boeing had a valid argument, than the owner of the Empire State Building could demand a license of every company that made a miniature likeness.
Boeing can claim the right to demand licensing, but that does not make it valid, nor legal. This is nothing more than corporate bullying..
My regards,
Widewing
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wtf happened to this thread?
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So basically, UbiSoft's excuse for why planes in IL-2 like the TBM aren't modeled as flyable is total BS.
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So basically, UbiSoft's excuse for why planes in IL-2 like the TBM aren't modeled as flyable is total BS.
Download 4.08m/4.09m.
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I have the most recent version. Still wasn't worth the price.
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So basically, UbiSoft's excuse for why planes in IL-2 like the TBM aren't modeled as flyable is total BS.
UbiSoft isn't involved at all. Boeing threatened Oleg's C1 company in Russia. A U.S. court ruling only applies to U.S. jurisdiction.
This crap is hopefully over though, or at least curtailed.
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I have the most recent version. Still wasn't worth the price.
What was wrong with it?
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Pretty much everything except the damage model and graphics: Sounds are awful (engines sound anemic, firing the .50cal sounds like a washing machine). Horrible views system. Very generic flight modeling (for example, all the aircraft have the exact same flap positions: Up, Combat, Takeoff, Landing) and almost all the aircraft "feel" the same. Engine overheats are ridiculously over-modeled. Poor to non-existent feeling of altitude or speed (granted, judging altitude improved when I changed to an nVidia card and could make use of the top-level water and ground detail settings). Control mapping can be awkward, and especially setting control axes is unintuitive (inverting the axis should be an ENTIRELY separate setting, not depending on which way you move the control to map it). I personally didn't like that there was no way to use Imperial measurements in the on-screen data when flying aircraft whose instruments were calibrated and rendered to show speed in mph and altitude in ft, rather than km/h and meters.
I have problems with the way the company went about development as well. It took them FOREVER to fix the way firing the US .50cal caused the aircraft to slew all over the sky (problem was identified almost immediately, but it took them half a dozen patched to do anything about it!). God forbid you lost a gun or two on one side. While the concept of merging the titles was interesting, IMO this led to a seriously half-assed approach to some of them. The default campaigns in Pacific Fighters stand-alone were HORRIBLE: I'm talking aircraft spawning right on your 6 o'clock. The only way to get anything approaching a complete game out of it was to merge it with Il-2. It was a glorified expansion pack, and if that's how they were going to develop it they should have just REQUIRED Il-2 to begin with. And I've mentioned this before, but it irritates me they focused all the attention they did on "wonder weapons" that never even left the drawing board, or superplanes that either never saw combat or didn't see action until Korea (I'm looking at you, P-80) but they refused to add the F4U-4 (and I MEAN refused. Oleg said specifically in threads on the forums asking for it that there were "enough" Corsairs already and they wouldn't be adding the -4. Even though there were about a dozen 109s, including the twin-fuselage model that never actually saw combat).
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Pacific Fighters was a 3rd party development that went so wrong that C1 had to take over and merge it with Il2FB to fix it. The sound set up is one of Il2's strong points imho with dynamic engine sounds, buffeting, turbulence etc. The guns would be muffled in the cockpit (so much so that the Spit I's .303's were completely drowned out by the engine in real life). The flap positions are not generic if you slave them to a proper analogue device (for example the 109's flaps are completely stepless). Fixing the recoil of the 50 cals might have been a bit far down on their list of things to fix, but you have to understand that Il2 focuses on the Eastern Front, and that U.S. planes were added almost as an afterthought. C1 being fully committed to their new Storms of War simulation probably can't be bothered to add that one missing (and historically insignificant) Corsair just because a few whiners can't live without it. Between this and the Star Trek thread you do come off as a bit of a whiner Saxman, if you want to fly American don't buy Russian.
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Nope. Less than 10 built.
Where are you getting this information??
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...but you have to understand that Il2 focuses on the Eastern Front, and that U.S. planes were added almost as an afterthought...
Tell me this then: Why do TWO Zero models that never saw combat rate an addition? This is a total cop-out. If they cared that little to do something properly then better they not do it at ALL and stick to their primary focus.
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I have the most recent version. Still wasn't worth the price.
$10?
If you can't fly the tbm then you don't have 4.08m. Pm me if you want a link.
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Tell me this then: Why do TWO Zero models that never saw combat rate an addition? This is a total cop-out. If they cared that little to do something properly then better they not do it at ALL and stick to their primary focus.
C1 is not making these models. They are made by 3rd parties, fans mostly. C1 only quality check them. And I think they can do pretty much what they like; after all it is their product.
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They "refuse" to add any new American planes because Boeing threatened to sue them if they didn't pay for using their "intellectual property". Instead they just stopped adding planes that Boeing now owns the rights to. I wonder if HTC has to pay Boeing for simulating the Pony?
Man are you ever wrong!!!
It was Northrop Grumman, not Boeing. Oh yes, the company is 1C, not C1. :rolleyes:
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Several in fact, but none of them are Allied. The 110C-4b and all the radial engined 190's use 150 grade fuel (German C3).
Late war C3 had a rich mixture PN of pushing 140. This was equivalent to Allied 100/150PN fuel.
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How a game that has such a garbage FM can pass off as anything more than mediocre in someone's review, like Saxman's, is pretty nuts. It's just crap wrapped in eye candy. His review's just about spot on.
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Man are you ever wrong!!!
It was Northrop Grumman, not Boeing. Oh yes, the company is 1C, not C1. :rolleyes:
Lol whatever! :lol
Point stands, they got sued.
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Nope. Less than 10 built.
Less than 10 built?
Never saw any action?
Where are you finding this information??
Please reveal your source!
(my 3rd request for this info)
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Less than 10 built?
Never saw any action?
Where are you finding this information??
Please reveal your source!
(my 3rd request for this info)
busa, a Japanese player who did research on the Ki-84 for HTC using Japanese language sources.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262941.30.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262941.30.html)
Hello, this is busa01.
About Ki84-1b
The number of production of Ki84-1b is misunderstood.
Those numbers of production were about 100 pcs slightly.
They were produced only at the Nakajima aviation Ota factory.
The manufacture number is after the Ota factory of No.3000.
About 2700pcs Ki84 was produced at the Ota factory.
That is, manufacture numbers are not consecutive numbers.
Ki84-1b carried out parallel production with Ki84-1a after the spring of 1945.
Therefore, there is few production.
And about 730pcs Ki84 was produced at the Utsunomiya factory.
And Ki84-1c was not mass-produced.
I want Ki84-1b to appear in AH.
But at present, I do not demand it of Pyro.
Because, the Japanese airplanes in AH has many correction problems.
It is one of the reasons many Japanese players left AH.
I want them to be solved.
I do not want it to develop into political diplomacy to add Ki84-1b.
But I think that it is very easy to add it as Perk plane.
Thank you for reading my poor English.
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Doesn't he say 100 built?
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Doesn't he say 100 built?
That was the "b", four Ho-5 20mm, not the "c" with two 20mm and two 30mm cannons.
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busa, a Japanese player who did research on the Ki-84 for HTC using Japanese language sources.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262941.30.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262941.30.html)
Busa seems very well versed in the history of the Ki-84.
But I still don't see any references to fact that "less than 10" were built, and none saw any action.
Books and web sites seem to include the "C" model in with Lb and Ia and NEVER infer that the "C" was never used in combat.
Most references will include derivatives that never saw combat, such as the Ki-84N and the KI-116.
And while I'll agree that Busa SEEMS to know what he's talking about, he's just another player.
For all we know he could be misquoting the facts. Just because he says he's Japanese doesn't make him an expert in my eyes.
Soooo, I will ask again, where did you find the statements that "less than 10" were built, and "none saw any action" ??
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That was the "b", four Ho-5 20mm, not the "c" with two 20mm and two 30mm cannons.
Ah, CC. However I could not see any reference to the 10 "c" models you mentioned?
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Every book or site I have seen puts the Ki-84-Ic production at less than 10 and no service. Busa simply says that it wasn't mass produced.
If you have a source that says otherwise, please supply it.
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Mass produced isn't a criteria. We have exotic planes like the Ta 152 and F4U1-C in the game.
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Mass produced isn't a criteria. We have exotic planes like the Ta 152 and F4U1-C in the game.
But they saw squadron service. Please show that the Ki-84-Ic did as well. Nothing I have ever found supports that.
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This site says 94+ built: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nakaki84.html
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But they saw squadron service. Please show that the Ki-84-Ic did as well. Nothing I have ever found supports that.
Show that the "C" didn't.
Nothing I have found discounts it.
I have been looking at KI-84 versions on-line for quite a while and have found NOTHING to support your claims.
The only web page that lists ANY kind of production numbers on the B or the C is the one that Diehard has posted, and those numbers may be bogus, who knows?
Nowhere is it to be found that the C did not see any action.
In fact from everything I've read, quite the opposite is infered.
"Less than 10".
NEVER saw service?
Those seem to be pretty concrete statements, where did THAT info come from?
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Unless you can prove it saw service (i.e. which sentais it served with) you are out of luck.
Keep in mind, I am pro-Ki-84. I was a major advocator for it being added to AH. I am not saying this because I don't like the idea of the Ki-84-Ic, I am saying it because I do not believe that it meets the criteria for AH.
The Ki-84-Ib does meet the criteria and should, in my opinion, be added.
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Unless you can prove it saw service (i.e. which sentais it served with) you are out of luck.
Keep in mind, I am pro-Ki-84. I was a major advocator for it being added to AH. I am not saying this because I don't like the idea of the Ki-84-Ic, I am saying it because I do not believe that it meets the criteria for AH.
The Ki-84-Ib does meet the criteria and should, in my opinion, be added.
I doubt that you will even find which "Sentais" the B series flew with.
Most articles I've read don't seem to specify different versions.
And I hope I wasn't coming off like I was pizzed off at you or anything. I wasn't.
I was however holdin you arse to fire on the "less than 10" and "Never" statements. Lol.
I have to admit (and so do you) that info on production and dispersion numbers are albet impossible to find.
And if you ever do come across info that backs up your statements, Id love to see it. :salute
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Leszek A. Wieliczko's Ki-84 book (ISBN: 83-89088-76-2) states the following about the KI-84c:
"Even more heavily armed was another version designated Yon-Shiki Sentoki Hei-Gata, i.e. Army Type 4 Fighter Model C, or Ki-84 Hei (KI-84c). This time the Ho-5 cannons were retained in the fuselage (like on the Ki-84 Otsu), whereas the wing-mounted cannons were to be replaced by new 30-mm Ho-155 II cannons (sometimes incorrectly referred to as Ho-105 or Ho-115). In fact, the Ho-155s were usually not mounted, as their development never reached a stage allowing quantity production. Reportedly, there were several cases of only one Ho-155 II mounted in the starboard wing, but there are no photographs to support this claim. (Some books contain a photograph captioned "Ki-84 Hei" but it was infact a Ki-84 Ko no. T2-302 captured and tested after the war by the Americans; the mistake results from the fact that the aircraft had long and thick fairings of the wing-mounted cannons, which implies weapons of a much greater calibre.) The Ki-84 Hei practically remained an experimental machine."
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I doubt that you will even find which "Sentais" the B series flew with.
Most articles I've read don't seem to specify different versions.
And I hope I wasn't coming off like I was pizzed off at you or anything. I wasn't.
I was however holdin you arse to fire on the "less than 10" and "Never" statements. Lol.
I have to admit (and so do you) that info on production and dispersion numbers are albet impossible to find.
And if you ever do come across info that backs up your statements, Id love to see it. :salute
The Japanese language records on these things seem to be much more detailed than what we can get in English. I am not certain that we couldn't ID at least some of the sentais that had the Ki-84-I-Otsu.
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A Ki-100 would also be a nice addition.
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A Ki-100 would also be a nice addition.
I'd really rather have more of the early war planes first.
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I'd really rather have more of the early war planes first.
The Ki-100 was little more than a 1942 design.... It was obsolete when first built.
My regards,
Widewing
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A Ki-100 would also be a nice addition.
Why? Its one claim to fame in Japanese service is erased in AH and without that it is nothing more than a Ki-61-I in performance.
If you want to plug a hole, ask for the Ki-43. If you want a good Japanese fighter, ask for the Ki-44 or J2M3.
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Looks a lot better though...
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/108887666_69830f74fc.jpg?v=0)
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I like the Ki-44 and J2M3 better:
Ki-44 Shoki 'Tojo':
(http://www.vojsko.net/photo/letecka/stihaci/Ki-44_1.jpg)
J2M Raiden 'Jack':
(http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/jack_1_3v.jpg)
(http://www.davidpride.com/Aviation/images/Chino_027.jpg)
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4 x 20mms FTW in that case!
Also, more early war japanese and russian planes please.
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Keep in mind, I am pro-Ki-84. I was a major advocater for it being added to AH.
Thanks!! :aok
The Ki-84-Ib does meet the criteria and should, in my opinion, be added.
Agreed. Hope it comes. :pray
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Yes your right. Im not so afraid bout 1v1 with spits.
[/quote
im never scared of spits with my 38 :D