Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: RufusLeaking on June 12, 2009, 04:23:39 PM
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How does one acknowledge the courage and sacrifice of airmen who fought for the wrong side?
This is an idea that has recurred to me time and again has recently been rekindled with the discussion of the Brewster in the Finnish Air Force and the inclusion of the blue swastika (FAF) and not the Nazi black swastika in AH2.
It is the correct consensus that the Axis were the bad guys in World War II. I will not laundry list the flaws in the Axis ideologies or the atrocities committed. There are many. The evil of the leadership and their actions is undeniable. With the exception of Stalin’s Soviet state, the Allies were boy scouts.
Yet, the men who sacrificed for these evil idiots were still men. They had lives, families, camaraderie, traditions, etc. They fought against overwhelming odds. Not always honorably, but the same can be said of the victors. They had a sense of duty. And many died horribly as did soldiers on all sides. It was their misfortune to be born in the wrong nation at the wrong time. That my grandparents immigrated to the US meant that my father was an enlisted man on the USS Hornet (CV-12) off Okinawa and his brother was wounded while serving in the 100th Infantry Division in France and Germany.
I really have no answer.
My humanity feels for their suffering. My intellect wonders how they could have been so gullible as to believe in such nonsense as the “master race.” My patriotism wonders what they were thinking taking on the United States. It is my own experience in the USAF that knows, for the most part, that they were men like me. I can empathize with their personal human sacrifices.
I can acknowledge their bravery, but I cannot endorse their objectives. How do we remember their sacrifice?
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If you read memoirs of WW2 German pilots, especially fighters, you may notice that almost none of them joined the Luftwaffe to serve nazi regime. They joined for the same reasons as pilots in most western countries: it gave them opportunity to fly , secondly it gave them profession some of them thought would have a future, and sometimes it could raise one's social status. That's it. They had misfortune to be trained in time to take part in the big mess called WW2. And then again Luftwaffe was the most "independent thinking" branch of German military - it had fewest political fanatics compared to other branches, some of its members openly disregarding nazi authorities. They fought driven by sense of duty, maybe because of pride of being world's best trained air warriors, but I don't think many of them believed all the master race crap.
Sry for my English :)
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Wow, great question Rufus.
For me it's also sometimes difficult to look upon German soldiers of WWII as humans or anything but Nazis. Rather ironic considering I'm German. However, I am easily reminded that not all German military men of WWII were Nazis when I recall my Grandfather's story. He was enlisted into the military without a say about it. While in transit to his training base he jumped off a moving train successfully evading his future military, "career."
When thinking about the war I also remember that the true humanity of each side is never revealed until the dust settles. One image has always come to mind when I think about the aftermath. The image of a German soldier returning home, or what was once home.
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7914/aftermathofwar.jpg)
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This is an idea that has recurred to me time and again has recently been rekindled with the discussion of the Brewster in the Finnish Air Force and the inclusion of the blue swastika (FAF) and not the Nazi black swastika in AH2.
It should be noted that one of the reasons that the Nazi Swastika is not used in Aces High, if not the primary or only reason, is because in Germany the symbol is only allowed to be used under certain circumstances, and their government has censored video games before...
It is the correct consensus that the Axis were the bad guys in World War II. I will not laundry list the flaws in the Axis ideologies or the atrocities committed. There are many. The evil of the leadership and their actions is undeniable. With the exception of Stalin’s Soviet state, the Allies were boy scouts.
Although it would be stupid to try to say in any way that actions of the Western Allies ever matched what was committed by some of the Axis powers, I think it is also not fair to say that their hands were clean at the end of the war, either. Millions of civilians were killed in the Allied firebombing campaigns.
My intellect wonders how they could have been so gullible as to believe in such nonsense as the “master race.” My patriotism wonders what they were thinking taking on the United States.
The first is a pretty one to answer if you consider the second...
Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.
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Denholm,
How many German soldiers from WW2 have you mett?
Hans Gerdes is my brother's father-in-law. He was a journeyman carpenter
about 17-8 in 1943 when Herr Adolf said welcome to the Luftwaffe. He said you
didn't refuse the draft or you got sent to a camp. He was placed in a 20mm flak
crew and sent to a field about 30k east of Cherbourg. His war lasted about 2
months when his position was strafed by a P-38 on D-Day and he was badly wounded.
He still carries some of the 27 pieces of schrapnel and has a tough time going
through metal detectors. He was sent home to heal up, but was transfered to a
military hospital near Hamburg by war's end. The patients at the hospital were
supposed to be released to go home after the surrender. Instead the Americans
turned the patients over to the Russians.
Hans spent 5 years in Siberia building bridges for the Siberian highway and
railroad before being repatriated in 1950. Of the 2400+ prisoners he was with
in 1945, less than 200 remained alive by 1950.
Hans is a great guy, wasn't a Nazi and paid a heavy price for being born in
the wrong country. Sometimes the world isn't black and white.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxmGxY37jI
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It is quite simple. Those people fought for their country and for their countrymen, regardless of their attitude toward the nazi regime.
I can tell you from personal experience that once your nearest and dearest are under threat, you go to fight even if this is a war you do not believe in. You go cursing and grinding your teeth, but you still go - out of your own free will. Love and care for your family, friends and comrades beats moral and ideology.
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Yeah right. After the war was lost finding a Nazi supporter was like searching for hens teeth. :huh
And after the war 70 million Germans, or what was left after we bombed the snot out of them, all threw up their hands over the Jews and undesirables, "we didn't know". As if you could uproot millions upon millions of people and nobody knew what happened to them.
The thing is the Final solution didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a series of Pogroms where Himmler et al systematically either conditioned the German public, and most of all the Military, or brought them into the conspiracy that they "Germans" "Nordics" were a "master race" and lesser races would either be enslaved or annihilated. The German army was knee deep in guilt in their support of the the Eisengruppen squads as they fanned out in the wake of Barbarossa. In 1942, at Wannsee, the SS made formal the complicity of the entire German Bureaucracy. 9 million dont disappear without a whole lot of file clerks using ink by the gallons.
And a lot of the Finns bought the message. The Norwegians too. The Baltics and the French Police, and Vichy Govt., were shameful in their assistance in the Final Solution. The fact is a lot of Europe bought the message for whatever reasons. Boy if you ever want to study true evil then study the eastern front where 40 million people ended up dieing in the Nazi pursuit of "living space" for the German people and the destruction of lesser races.
Personally? I think almost the entire German nation bought the message Hitler gave them. At least in the early years. While the army and Industrialists sought to use him for their on benefit. Dont forget the army didn't act on killing him until "after" D-day. Until D-day there was still a chance to end the war on favorable terms.
So sorry, I dont give them a pass as others might.
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Where do you then define those who sacrificed their lives fighting AGAINST the evil of their own country?
Canaris...the head of the German secret service, turned sides and co-opped with the British. The Nazis hung him.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1979-013-43%2C_Wilhelm_Canaris.jpg)
Or this group of young people who went head to head against Nazi propoganda, with their printing. Result: Guilliotine.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/WhiteRose.jpg)
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It's so easy to judge from a continent and 70 years away. Things are never black and white and the reality was that either you went with the flow or your own life was instantly destroyed either by losing your position in society or ending up to the same camps.
Many people helped the ghetto people as much as their own little supplies enabled it and many people got trouble because of it.
Would you help a poor starving accused terrorist that was on a hideout next to your home? Of course not - even if you _knew_ they were wrongfully accused for their position, helping them would be suicide for you. The jews of the time are the terrorist of today. Group of ehnicity labeled as enemy of the nation. The same people who stomp the bible about their moral high ground quietly accept that a certain group of people have no human rights and can be limitlessly detained by the government just on the premise of accusation.
Fuel for thought..
And /edit: I don't have a problem with chasing the buggers by any means - it sucks for the wrongfully accused though.
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This is an idea that has recurred to me time and again has recently been rekindled with the discussion of the Brewster in the Finnish Air Force and the inclusion of the blue swastika (FAF) and not the Nazi black swastika in AH2.
It is the correct consensus that the Axis were the bad guys in World War II. I will not laundry list the flaws in the Axis ideologies or the atrocities committed. There are many. The evil of the leadership and their actions is undeniable. With the exception of Stalin’s Soviet state, the Allies were boy scouts.
Yet, the men who sacrificed for these evil idiots were still men.
Mind you that finns weren't exactly evil even if they were part of the axis and I would venture to say that the allies committed more evil deeds.
I have learned a long ago to respect most soldiers regardless of their side. Those who I don't respect are those who have committed evil deeds by their own sadistic, brutal or otherwise twisted will.
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neither side of two armies/ countries fighting each other is evil, only depending on what side you were on. Ie we thought the Axis were the evil bad guys and they thought the Allies were the evil bad guys. During times of war both sides can and commit inhumane acts to each other. regardless of who served for who..I have alot of respect for anyone who had done their part in the war.
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the very simple fact, is that the soldiers in the field, and the airmen, were just the same as our young men. they were fighting for their country. they were simply fated with being born on the wrong side.
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It should be noted that one of the reasons that the Nazi Swastika is not used in Aces High, if not the primary or only reason, is because in Germany the symbol is only allowed to be used under certain circumstances, and their government has censored video games before...
Although it would be stupid to try to say in any way that actions of the Western Allies ever matched what was committed by some of the Axis powers, I think it is also not fair to say that their hands were clean at the end of the war, either. Millions of civilians were killed in the Allied firebombing campaigns.
The first is a pretty one to answer if you consider the second...
Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.
I agree with this absolutely intelligent answer. This is about the extent of my feelings.
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Denholm,
How many German soldiers from WW2 have you mett?
I'm pretty sure I met a few. However, I was too young to know or care about what the war meant. It's not my story that I told, just that of my Grandfather's.
...Personally? I think almost the entire German nation bought the message Hitler gave them. At least in the early years. While the army and Industrialists sought to use him for their on benefit. Dont forget the army didn't act on killing him until "after" D-day. Until D-day there was still a chance to end the war on favorable terms...
My great-Grandmother assisted Jewish residents during the war regardless of speeches that they were dirt. Yes, my great-Grandmother was German.
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If somehow the terrorists 'win' after all this sand dune warfare, we will be the nazis in 70 years.
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Rufus, my deceased grandfather served in the 100th Infantry as well. His name was Charles Meyers. He was originally a medic and then got handed a rifle and got told "go kill germans" (nazi's). After the war he and some others set up a small medical clinic in a somewhat small german town. I"m interested in knowing if there is any connection between my grandfather and your grandfathers brother.
:salute
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History is indeed written by those who conquer, however the printing press, the camera, and now the internet make it hard to hide everything. (Makes it easier to twist things though).
Anyway, Ripley's fuel for thought:
"Would you help a poor starving accused terrorist that was on a hideout next to your home? Of course not - even if you _knew_ they were wrongfully accused for their position, helping them would be suicide for you. The jews of the time are the terrorist of today."
I presume "accused" terrorists rather than the real one, since jews didn't do anything, they were simply the jewish people.
As for helping it would't be suicide in our world, since our western world is a long way from i.e. Nazi Germany where people lost their head for uttering the wrong words.
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The governments may die and change, but people will always be the same. All it takes is a hue and cry to be sounded and the pitch forks and torches come out. We cannot blame people for being human. Faced with the same media and government pressure mixed with the way the world was looked 70 years ago most of us would have behaved the same as the German people. There were good or bad, strong or weak, shepards or sheep, back then and there always will be.
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History is indeed written by those who conquer, however the printing press, the camera, and now the internet make it hard to hide everything. (Makes it easier to twist things though).
Anyway, Ripley's fuel for thought:
"Would you help a poor starving accused terrorist that was on a hideout next to your home? Of course not - even if you _knew_ they were wrongfully accused for their position, helping them would be suicide for you. The jews of the time are the terrorist of today."
I presume "accused" terrorists rather than the real one, since jews didn't do anything, they were simply the jewish people.
As for helping it would't be suicide in our world, since our western world is a long way from i.e. Nazi Germany where people lost their head for uttering the wrong words.
I'm pretty sure that if you helped a person that your government has deemed an enemy of the nation you would also become enemy of the nation. Same set of rules (i.e. no rules, no rights) would be applied to you aswell.
Jews were officially at the status 'enemy of the nation' in holocaust times.
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Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.
Thats a little different then official Govt. policies to annihilate entire populations using Industrial methods while stealing their land and wealth to make living space for their own citizens. All with the complicity of thousands, if not millions, of your soldiers, Bureaucrats, Politicians, citizens.
As to the Japanese, and I'm not justifying anything here cause it was wrong. At the time Japan wasn't as much a country as it was a "Nation Family" and any word from the Japanese Emperor would in essence be considered the same thing as Jesus talking to Christians.
In the end we were wrong. Our west coast Japanese citizens were Americans first. But still it must have been a scary thing to think about in those early months as the IJA and IJN charged thru Asia with a barbarity that even turned the Nazis stomachs. So we weren't even close in such kinds of cruelty compared to our enemies. Yes we put them in camps but we didnt kill or torture them. However, and even tho it has nothing to do with the Holocaust, it is a shameful chapter in our history.
the very simple fact, is that the soldiers in the field, and the airmen, were just the same as our young men. they were fighting for their country. they were simply fated with being born on the wrong side.
Think so ? circa 1934
"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath."
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Rich, you seem to stress the oaths quite a lot. Have you ever considered that it is just a formality every soldier participates in. Maybe some of them savour every word to their hearts and stand strongly behind what they are repeating in the ritual. I bet some just repeat the word without thinking much about it.
When Finnish SS-volunteers made the oath, there were lots of prior negotiations about the words in their oath and about the independence of the future unit, which was wished to join the Wehrmacht all the way from the beginning. They did not want to make the oath to Hitler as a Leader of the German Nation or to National Socialism and eventually a different milder wording was agreed on between Finnish and German officials. In the end, by the day of the oath, those promises had changed and they were still read the one and same German oath :rolleyes: Not all of them spoke or even understood German ;)
I have also heard from an Estonian colleague who had to serve 2 years in Soviet army in the 80's how he and other Estonians made fun of the Soviet military oath. They intentionally pronounced some Russian words wrong so that their meaning changed into some Estonian humorous or rude words.
So, what I am basically trying to say is that in some situations the military (or any other) oath may not come from one's heart and mind. It is just a ritual or a formality. Just think how many people divorce regardless of how they make oaths to love each other until death do them apart ;)
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Here is something more related to "fighting on the wrong side"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/estonia/3965268/Russians-protest-at-Estonia-SS-calendar.html
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Thats a little different then official Govt. policies to annihilate entire populations using Industrial methods while stealing their land and wealth to make living space for their own citizens. All with the complicity of thousands, if not millions, of your soldiers, Bureaucrats, Politicians, citizens.
(...)
Yes we put them in camps but we didnt kill or torture them. However, and even tho it has nothing to do with the Holocaust, it is a shameful chapter in our history.
That's exactly what I said.
I was addressing the points in his post where he said the Western Allies were 'boyscouts' and that he didn't understand the racism in Germany. I even said that things that were done in the US, UK etc. don't come anywhere close to what was done and Germany and Japan.
You can stop trying to make me look like a Nazi sympathizer.
"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath."
That sounds like a pretty standard oath...
Pretty similar to the US Armed Forces Oath, at least
"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
They don't say "President Barack Obama, Commander in Chief of the United States Military" or whatever, but it's the same concept.
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You can stop trying to make me look like a Nazi sympathizer.
Last time it was somebody else screeching this. Where on earth did you get the idea I'm trying to make you/call you, or anybody else, a "Nazi sympathizer". It just isn't true so please get off it. This is simply a historical discussion and nobody is calling anybody anything. Points are simply being made, and should it get into a name calling thing? Then I'm gone! I cant survive another "mass report" by cry babies.
Read the US oath and you'll see we take oaths to #1 uphold the Constitution and #2 Obey the "elected" Head of state. The same Head of State that has to follow the law his ownself.
Nothing and nobody is perfect. Not even Democracy. The scariest thing about WW-ll is in what happened to such a accomplished, Christian Nation like Germany. If it can happen to Germany then really it can happen anywheres. And it happened bit by bit, year by year, pogrom by pogrom, over the course of a Decade Hitler and his closest cronies drew all of German citizenry, military, Industry, Church, Police into their conspiracy of racial warfare by inhuman method.
To water it down, make exuses, search for comparisons, really does a dis-service to those who fought against it and defeated it.
As for the Finns, and even the Norwegians, the Danes...ect while some of their Jews were victimized, or even turned over, "most" were shielded at great risk. It took a lot of nerve to tell the Nazis "No" were not giving you our Jews so you can murder them.
Rich, you seem to stress the oaths quite a lot. Have you ever considered that it is just a formality every soldier participates in. Maybe some of them savour every word to their hearts and stand strongly behind what they are repeating in the ritual. I bet some just repeat the word without thinking much about it.
I took the oath myself and it is no small matter to a soldier. Most of all to a German soldier who considers all his honor is bound to his oath. Ask any veteran here, or active soldier, and I'd bet they would say the same thing.
When Finnish SS-volunteers made the oath, there were lots of prior negotiations about the words in their oath and about the independence of the future unit, which was wished to join the Wehrmacht all the way from the beginning. They did not want to make the oath to Hitler as a Leader of the German Nation or to National Socialism and eventually a different milder wording was agreed on between Finnish and German officials. In the end, by the day of the oath, those promises had changed and they were still read the one and same German oath Not all of them spoke or even understood German
Maybe you should hold them accountable instead of making exuses for them. The Finns are an honorable people. Otherwise they wouldn't have protected their Jews at such great risk to themselves. They didn't take such oaths lightly and no doubt many were shamed by it after the war. It is what it is and while you can forgive you/we should never forget.
An Estonian taking a Soviet military oath would be like me taking a United nations oath. I'd spit on the ground after saying it and then make an obscene gesture. I'll bet those taking an oath to protect Estonia now think different. An American soldier would protect the Constitution to the death. So would a Finnish one in his nations service now.
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Last time it was somebody else screeching this. Where on earth did you get the idea I'm trying to make you/call you, or anybody else, a "Nazi sympathizer". It just isn't true so please get off it. This is simply a historical discussion and nobody is calling anybody anything. Points are simply being made, and should it get into a name calling thing? Then I'm gone! I cant survive another "mass report" by cry babies.
When people 'quote mine' and take things out of context they're usually trying to suggest something. Even if you weren't, the tone suggested otherwise. I usually read my posts to myself in my head a few times before I submit them (and after, as you may be able to tell from the amount of edits I use) so that I don't come off aggressively when I don't mean to. If you weren't trying to before I suggest you do the same.
I don't mean that in a condescending way, just a piece of advice.
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The only qoute I took from you was about the Internment camps where I basically agreed with you.
How you got the "Nazi Sympathizer" thing out of it is beyond me. Boy, its beyond the galaxy. :huh
Which means, I think, I bid goodby to this thread. Before 15 pals mass report me to Skuzzy for calling them "nazi sympathizers".
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The only qoute I took from you was about the Internment camps where I basically agreed with you.
How you got the "Nazi Sympathizer" thing out of it is beyond me. Boy, its beyond the galaxy. :huh
Which means, I think, I bid goodby to this thread. Before 15 pals mass report me to Skuzzy for calling them "nazi sympathizers".
dude.....it's understood, that you, and many many others took their oaths seriously. the thing is though.....put yourself back there now.
you're given a choice......join, or die. or go to a "re-education" camp....translates......or die.
which would you choose given that choice? i'm sure a LOT of them took the "join" option. in that instance, i would also imagine they simply repeated what was read off to them, not thinking, or paying any mind to it.
now they;re given a weapon, and shipped to the front. now, they have zero choice.....they HAVE to kill their enemy in order to even have a slim chance of survival.
quite a large number of them were probably just kids(18+) like our infantrymen were.
the truly insane ones were the ones running the "camps"
and i did lose someone there.......my great uncle(after whom i'm named) was a medic. he was kiled, while trying to pull injured infantrymen from the line of fire.
now....by all of the above, i in no way condone anything that was done back then.......just simply stating my opinion.
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Rich,
You ever researched who the bolshevik's were who actualy starved some millions of Ukranians to death before WW2? I've only looked into this in the last few months. You might look into who ran the Cheka during the Ukranian famine 1928-32. It was pretty much a christian holocost in itself.
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(http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00181/SOLDAAT_181938h.jpg)
A statue of a German soldier who saved 2 children in Goilre Holland still a delicate case so it had to be planted in someones garden.
http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/dutch-news/Dutch-honour-_humanity_-of-German-soldier-_47157.html
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I cant speak for others, But when I was in Afghanistan and the rest of the guys I was with all said and thought the same thing, we dont give a damn about queen and country, we are just fighting to save each other..I dont even remember my oath of allegiance, it was just something I had to do to get in the army.
I fought for the man standing next to me :salute
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One of the first books on the Holacaust I read when I was younger was "The Murderers Among Us' by Simon Wiesenthal. He spent his life hunting Nazi war criminals, and was a survivor of the concentration camps.
He was very clear that he did not believe in collective guilt. One of the stories he tells in the book is about a German Feldwebel who was a devout Catholic. He ended up bringing food, medicine and whatever he could to one of the Jewish Ghettos. He was found out by the Gestapo and sentenced to death. In a letter written to his wife, he talked about wanting to be a helper and that he felt it his duty as a human being to do what he did to help those in need.
How do you judge a man like that? Was he a traitor, or was he a man who stepped beyond borders to be a decent human being. I think you can find the good guys and bad guys in every country.
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I cant speak for others, But when I was in Afghanistan and the rest of the guys I was with all said and thought the same thing, we dont give a damn about queen and country, we are just fighting to save each other..I dont even remember my oath of allegiance, it was just something I had to do to get in the army.
I fought for the man standing next to me :salute
probably the truest, and most sincere words in this thread.
:salute
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The immediate cause of WWII was the territorial ambition of Germany and Japan. It is hard for me to condemn those in military service to those nations in WWII as especially wicked unless they practiced unnecessary brutality/murder. This is because virtually every nation on the face of the Earth has fought wars for expansion, and millions of soldiers from virtually every nation have at one time or another drawn pay for fighting in these wars. Those nations that WON these wars tend to still be somewhat glorified or at least not terribly vilified to this day. Rome springs to mind, as does the British Empire or the United State's wars with the Indians.
There is a reason why the Irish republic abstained from WWII...fighting alongside the British to "keep small nations free" would have seemed exceedingly odd given England's history with Ireland.
The Japanese thought they were only doing in Asia what European colonialists had already done for centuries.
The rub is that by the time of WWII, naked aggression for territorial purposes had gone out of fashion in the democratic West. Germany and Japan lagged behind ideologically, and thus found themselves one the receiving end of the (newly) righteous might of the Allied nations.
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I cant speak for others, But when I was in Afghanistan and the rest of the guys I was with all said and thought the same thing, we dont give a damn about queen and country, we are just fighting to save each other..I dont even remember my oath of allegiance, it was just something I had to do to get in the army.
I fought for the man standing next to me :salute
Thats not the point I was making. Of course when the bullets are flying an oath is the last thing your thinking about.
The fact is when you raise your hand and take that oath you are "legally bound" to it. Understand? It has the legal/moral weight of a freight train. Violate it and you going to end up in all kinds of trouble. So its probably best you actually understand and believe in it when they make you take it.
Im a Policeman and had to take an oath to uphold the Constitution and Laws of my state, "and had to take one when I joined the service". Did I/Do I think about it every day? Of course not! But I am bound by it, and so were you.
Violate that oath and your going to find yourself in a world of trouble. Cause I dont think the defense, "Aww I just needed a job" is going to help you much.
Course your probably right that oaths dont mean as much as they used to. The Wehrmacht of that era, and before, was an extremely professional and tradition bound service, and one with a high level of discipline. You can bet taking that oath meant a lot to both the soldiers, their command, and their Fuhrer.
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Yup, I've made a military oath too, over 20 years ago. Most Finns do compulsory military service. The oath matters if the person making it truly believes in the values. I am standing behind my oath, but the circumstances are quite different than for many in 1940's
I am betting that many foreign SS-soldiers, or e.g. many Luftwaffe pilots did not consider Hitler and his agendas primarily, or at all, when making their oaths. For them it was just a formality to get on with their career or adventure or service to their own foreign country, like in the case of the Finns.
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First, allow me to salute all of the responders. It is nice to see a thread that has not degenerated into - "You're a noob." - "No, you're a noob."
I glad to see that there were some fellow history nerds out there. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
The OP was hopefully worded carefully as not to wrongly point fingers or whitewash the wrongs done by the Western Allies. Quotes below are edited for length, not content or spinning.
And then again Luftwaffe was the most "independent thinking" branch of German military - it had fewest political fanatics compared to other branches, some of its members openly disregarding nazi authorities. They fought driven by sense of duty, maybe because of pride of being world's best trained air warriors, but I don't think many of them believed all the master race crap.
Sry for my English :)
I have read many books on the Luftwaffe. The 'War Diaries' was published several decades ago. Adolph Galland and Ernst Udet are two men who illustrate your point. In my younger years, I was a USAF pilot humbly flying KC135s. I can testify to the egos of pilots and the culture of proving oneself to your peers. Your English is excellent, btw.
Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.
That millions died as a direct result of the Western Allies policies is indisputable. Note the recent discussion regarding the destruction of Caen in June, 1944.
Also undeniable is that the Axis atrocities were cut from a different cloth. In fact, one would have to go back to the 1870's in the US to find anything like that genocidal zeal (Native American extermination). As this is a WW2 themed game, I was trying to stay focused. That, and I was trying to keep the "Blame America First" crowd at bay.
So sorry, I dont give them a pass as others might.
It is not about giving anyone a pass. It is about how to reconcile my respect for their bravery with the ultimate objectives of their cause. In no way can I endorse fascism. I lost all respect for Charles Lindberg when I read that he refused to fly against the Nazis. I will not buy Chanel perfume as Coco Chanel was a highly visible collaborator. No passes given here.
IThe jews of the time are the terrorist of today.
Terrible analogy. Sorry, I try to be open minded, but there is no indication that Jews in early 20th century Germany were terrorists in the same way that 21st century terrorists crash jets into buildings. The Jews were wrongfully blamed for the loss in WW1 and subsequent depression era hardships.
Mind you that finns weren't exactly evil even if they were part of the axis and I would venture to say that the allies committed more evil deeds.
I have learned a long ago to respect most soldiers regardless of their side. Those who I don't respect are those who have committed evil deeds by their own sadistic, brutal or otherwise twisted will.
Never accused the Finns of anything. It was the discussion that reignited this mental confusion on my part. Also, your succinct conclusion nails it down pretty good. What is left for debate is the definition of sadistic, brutal or twisted. Witness the current debate of water boarding.
Rufus, my deceased grandfather served in the 100th Infantry as well. His name was Charles Meyers. He was originally a medic and then got handed a rifle and got told "go kill germans" (nazi's). After the war he and some others set up a small medical clinic in a somewhat small german town. I"m interested in knowing if there is any connection between my grandfather and your grandfathers brother.
:salute
Wow. Either it's a small world or it was a big army. A correction: it was my uncle, my father's brother. Yes, I am that old. He did not remain in Europe through V-E day. He ended up recovering in the same veterans' hospital as Bob Dole. I will pm you his name.
Pretty similar to the US Armed Forces Oath, at least
"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
They don't say "President Barack Obama, Commander in Chief of the United States Military" or whatever, but it's the same concept.
This is the oath of enlistment. As an officer, I never had to swear to obey the President. I did not recall that phrase. I was surprised to find separate oaths for enlisted and officers.
Yup, I've made a military oath too, over 20 years ago. Most Finns do compulsory military service. The oath matters if the person making it truly believes in the values. I am standing behind my oath, but the circumstances are quite different than for many in 1940's
I, too, took my oath seriously. Back then, we were taught that we were only obliged to follow lawful orders. Perhaps I am rationalizing, but I always saw this as an opening to prosecute those whose defense was "only following orders." The oath also had some words about taking it freely and without the purpose of evasion. I imagine the Gestapo would coerce potential recruits and their families.
Whew. Thanks again for the excellent responses. My apology for the length of this reply, but there were so many good points made. This post merely scratches the surface.
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Interesting thread. And if we speak about jews in war...
1.) The Winter War
In 1939 there was some 1700 Jews in Finland. Approximately 260 Finnish Jews participated in the Winter War, 200 of whom served at the front. There were also several Jewish volunteers coming from Europe, some of them desperately seeking a way to escape Nazi influence. Jewishness was not emphasised in the army; anti-Semitism was not an issue, and neither was the war particularly problematic for the Jews ideologically, for Finland was merely seen as defending itself against an attack by the Soviet Union. The war united the Jews with Finland more strongly than anything before, and it has been said that with their effort, they proved they truly were Finns
2.) The Continuation War
In the summer of 1941, Finland joined the war Germany had started against the Soviet Union. In this Continuation War the loyalty of Finnish Jews was put to test. Nevertheless, the Jews fought like everyone else. The Jewish magazine Makkabi declared in December 1942 that they were fighting “for the freedom and independence of Finland”. Relationships with the Germans were described as correct, even friendly. Most Jews spoke German, which may have contributed to friendships being formed. Jewishness of these soldiers was not hidden from the Germans, and there even was a field synagogue.
(http://www.holocaustinfo.org/kuvat/telttasynagoga.jpg)
Furloughs were given for Sabbaths, and some came from considerable distances to attend. The Germans were aware of the synagogue but did not interfere. Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative. When asked about their Jewish soldiers, Finnish superiors usually defended them, saying they were no different from other Finns. Jewish medical officers treated German patients and saved their lives, even risking their own. Several Jews were awarded German decorations, and no instance is known of German soldiers refusing to co-operate with Finnish Jewish officers. During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.
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My grandparents on my moms side of the family imigrated to the United States from Italy in the 30's. my granfather served in the U.S. Navy but his cousin who still lived in italy at the time was forced into the Italian Army. and fought in north africa and siciliy.
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My great uncle served with the RAF. His next door playmate from childhood ended up as an inmate in Sachsenhausen which was a very bad thing. They both survived.
My grandfather was a fisherman in the Icelandic waters at the time, thereby aiding the British with their feeding. (Since most of the fish went to the UK).
Meantime, my wife's grandfather was drafted and put into the German Kriegsmarine as a submariner. Their submarines started sinking Icelandic fishing boats about the time that my grandfather quit as a sailor, and entered farming, and her grandfather got re-routed to work as an engineer on a minesweeper.
Both survived the war.
Fate is....twisty....
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Interesting thread. And if we speak about jews in war...
1.) The Winter War
In 1939 there was some 1700 Jews in Finland. Approximately 260 Finnish Jews participated in the Winter War, 200 of whom served at the front. There were also several Jewish volunteers coming from Europe, some of them desperately seeking a way to escape Nazi influence. Jewishness was not emphasised in the army; anti-Semitism was not an issue, and neither was the war particularly problematic for the Jews ideologically, for Finland was merely seen as defending itself against an attack by the Soviet Union. The war united the Jews with Finland more strongly than anything before, and it has been said that with their effort, they proved they truly were Finns
2.) The Continuation War
In the summer of 1941, Finland joined the war Germany had started against the Soviet Union. In this Continuation War the loyalty of Finnish Jews was put to test. Nevertheless, the Jews fought like everyone else. The Jewish magazine Makkabi declared in December 1942 that they were fighting “for the freedom and independence of Finland”. Relationships with the Germans were described as correct, even friendly. Most Jews spoke German, which may have contributed to friendships being formed. Jewishness of these soldiers was not hidden from the Germans, and there even was a field synagogue.
(http://www.holocaustinfo.org/kuvat/telttasynagoga.jpg)
Furloughs were given for Sabbaths, and some came from considerable distances to attend. The Germans were aware of the synagogue but did not interfere. Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative. When asked about their Jewish soldiers, Finnish superiors usually defended them, saying they were no different from other Finns. Jewish medical officers treated German patients and saved their lives, even risking their own. Several Jews were awarded German decorations, and no instance is known of German soldiers refusing to co-operate with Finnish Jewish officers. During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.
You paint a pretty picture, and for the Finnish Jews that is mostly true. However Jewish immigrants were not treated as kindly; they were interned in camps and some were used as forced laborers (polite term for slaves), and some were handed over to the Germans. Your prime minister in 2000, Paavo Lipponen, issued an official apology for that. Also, Yad Vashem records that 22 Finnish Jews died in the Nazi death camps.
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Which would be very much a smaller number than Norwegian Jews dying in camps, and not even getting close to non-jewish Norsemen dying in the camps or being executed/murdered, which again points to it being a fact that the Finnish then somehow succeeded, - despite working temporarily with the Germans, - to put an umbrella over most of the Jews.
Wonder how many Lapplanders died when the Germans raized Lappland...
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The number is minuscule compared to some other European nations, but whether you imprison and force into slave labor a few hundred Jews or a million you're still a slaver in either case, and the number of Jews you deliver to the death camps has no bearing on the basic crime and the antisemitism it represents.
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In this case, I'd say "Size matters". Since most of the Jews were okay, these were the ones that were not successfully shielded.
In any country and any authority there are always a few naughty people in command...
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You paint a pretty picture, and for the Finnish Jews that is mostly true. However Jewish immigrants were not treated as kindly; they were interned in camps and some were used as forced laborers (polite term for slaves), and some were handed over to the Germans. Your prime minister in 2000, Paavo Lipponen, issued an official apology for that. Also, Yad Vashem records that 22 Finnish Jews died in the Nazi death camps.
As a sidenote _all_ so called immigrants (russians that moved to newly occupied land) were interned because there was a rampant desant problem and basically no place to put them. Leaving them to wander around would have been a major security risk. Just as in US the Japanese immigrants were interned to avoid sabotage etc.
The camps were no doubt horrible mostly due to lack of food as the whole country was starving and I'm sure the occupying folks were not the first ones when rations were handed out. The ones that got to go to labour at the farms were lucky - farmtime was considered a lottery win because you could always get food at the production plant directly.
I have no knowledge of forced labour being used in heavy mining etc. that would have killed people. Finland had thousands and thousands of war prisoners and you'd think there'd be some kind of monuments or tunnels built if they were used like the Germans did.
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I was more concerned with the Jewish refugees from Europe and the Baltic states that fled from the Nazi horrors. These were the ones that was handed over to the Gestapo and murdered.
So in other words you do have knowledge of forced labor being used, just not in "heavy mining etc."? I paraphrase from what I have read on the matter: "They were worked until their fingers bled and did not have clothing sufficient for the cold winters".
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Well, some Russian POWs became friends with locals at the farms they were working at and would not have wanted to go back to Russia after the war ended. There are even kids of those POWs and local Finnish women still alive... something that has been considered quite shameful since only the very recent years. So, this "hard labour" was for many POWs much better than their normal life back at Russia. Go figure :rolleyes:
Maybe you can elaborate on "Jewish refugees from Europe" who have come to Finland and have been turned over to nazies? When, who, how many? I confess, I am lacking of that knowledge.
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On the original point. They weren't fighting for the 'wrong' side. They were fighting for their country, rightly or wrongly. I remember a comedy sketch on the BBC. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU One wonders whether they are the baddies because of their skulls on their uniform. The sketch is funny but does highlight the point. The Germans didn't see themselves as the 'baddies'. In fact in a book about Auschwitz, the author came to an interesting conclusion. While many Germans claimed to be 'only obeying orders'. In fact for the most part they believed in what they were doing. Unlike for example the Russians, who often committed atrocities but mostly to prove their loyalty to the cause and the fear they were next to receive a bullet in the head. The Germans on the other hand, may have felt uncomfortable with what they were doing but they did it anyway because they believed it was the right thing. In fact part of the reason a more efficient and cleaner method of killing was devised was simply because many of the executioners couldn't cope with what they were doing. Many simply refused or committed suicide, others were sickened by their job despite believing in it. They saw it as a dirty job but one that had to be done.
The other point is that you cannot understand how things were by looking at it with modern eyes. For one thing, militarism was more respectable than it is now. War was the natural course of things. Conquest of other countries and a sense of superiority over other people was more acceptable. Plus people are misled quite easily. That hasn't changed, there are several recent situations from very recent history where people were misled into war. On top of that, fascism or communism were more widely supported, particularly in Europe. We are more free today than people were back then, even in the supposedly free countries. Many saw these ideologies as better than what they were experiencing at the time. They didn't have the hindsight we have. Many now look back and wonder what they were all thinking. But you get caught up in the moment and times you live in. We all do. Quite simply, if I was German back then. I would have joined in enthusiastically fought for my country and never apologised for it. It's the way of things.
So be careful of how you judge people in history. You must know the context.
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Unlike for example the Russians, who often committed atrocities but mostly to prove their loyalty to the cause and the fear they were next to receive a bullet in the head.
Sorry, but the Soviets didn't rape and pillage Eastern Europe to prove their loyalty.
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A very interesting thread.
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The only German ace/pilot(other than Goering) I know of that was a member of the Nazi party was Assi Hann, and I'm not even sure of him. Most like Galland were very critical of the command structure.
As far as swastika's in our game I would rather not see them associated with any German plane. Finns? Spanish civil war? I think we can live without that bit of realism.
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The only German ace/pilot(other than Goering) I know of that was a member of the Nazi party was Assi Hann, and I'm not even sure of him. Most like Galland were very critical of the command structure.
As far as swastika's in our game I would rather not see them associated with any German plane. Finns? Spanish civil war? I think we can live without that bit of realism.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel was also an ardent Nazi and continued to be active in those beliefs after the war. There were undoubtedly smany Nazis in the Luftwaffe, but I have to agree with the the notion Luftwaffe, at least among the actual fighting men, seems to have been largely independent from the political ideologies of the NSDAP.
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It was illegal for a German military officer to be a member of any political party. That does not mean there were no Nazis in the German officer corps. Most probably were... At least in the beginning when the fortunes of war favored Germany.
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Sorry, but the Soviets didn't rape and pillage Eastern Europe to prove their loyalty.
Maybe they partly did. But mostly because of revenge they thought justified. The Soviet leaders used the fact of German atrocities in Russia and even enhanced the stories of them to build up a rage among the troops. So, the loyalty to their paople nad to their leaders comes to play as well.
Likely there were also lots of farm boys who were in larger cities for the first time in their lives and could not believe their eyes when they saw how some Germans lived and what they had in their homes. Maybe it was quite natural to feel entitled to the spoils of war. It is e.g. "sadly amusing" to see photos of some soldiers wearing several watches on both arms...
Anyways, things obviously got quite out of hand in some places and the Soviet troops had to be disciplined back into line to continue fighting.
Of cource, if you ask the Russians, nothing like this ever happened.....
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Sorry, but the Soviets didn't rape and pillage Eastern Europe to prove their loyalty.
The comparsion I used was to illustrate the difference in motivation and the fact that by and large the Germans believed in their cause even if they weren't particularly inclined to be Nazis. Others simply took the familiar attitude of 'My country right or wrong'. Many simply went with the flow which for most people is all they can do.
Stalin's USSR was different. For many in the Soviet army you were in as much danger of being shot by your own side as you were from the Nazis. Officers were shot if too many of their men deserted. Decimation, that is shooting every tenth man, was practised to ensure they were properly motivated and of course there were the well known NKVD troops specifically tasked to shoot anyone who retreated in the face of the enemy.
My question is this. Was there a wrong side on the eastern front? Neither were the type you'd invite round for tea. No good guy/bad guy just two terrible regimes locking horns in a fight to the death.
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I think that the concept of "wrong side" is highly subjective. We were indoctrinated on the "Germany was the evil, Britain was the good". In the case of Nazi Germany, it is hard to go much more evil, but was Britain "good"? In this case, it is easy to find the lesser of two evils.
Britain was not the small and somewhat insignificant country it is today. Until the beginning of the 20th century, and until a short delusional period after WWII, Britain was perhaps the largest empire in History, ruling territories around the globe including a few "minor" nations like India and China. It did so ruthlessly and was in a constant state of putting down rebellions except for occasions when it was fighting other colonial powers. If you go by truly-global popular vote, Britain was the most hated nation on earth for a couple hundred years. The are many examples of British people turning against their country and join the "just cause" of the natives. Americans will normally tend to associate the British as the "good guys" - except when their independence war comes to mind. Then the British turn to be the evil oppressors that the rest of the world saw.
So, does the fact that Britain was just ruthless and not the greatest evil imaginable places its soldiers on the right or wrong side in colonial conflicts? Were redcoats heroes or henchmen of the villain? As long as Britain was winning, this definitely was the right side.
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As someone from a country with a long history with Britain and it's dark side. I have to say that if you had to choose a country to conquer you, it would have to be Britain or England more specifically as in fact it was the English who conquered the rest of us. They were ruthless in their conquests but in comparsion to the likes of the Nazis and Communists, mere puddytats. In the context of WW2, they were one of the good guys. In their overall history they were like all the others, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
It is the fate of the invader to be puzzled by the ingratitude of the invaded. After all, we came to your country defeated you, proving our superiority. We gave you our culture, our language. We included you in our empire and made you one of us. Why on earth would you want to be free of us? The English always suffered from that syndrome. Still do, to some extent. Almost as if they were doing us a favour by conquering us. The Romans were like that too, as were the Russians, the French and frankly Americans.
I say that as someone who has traceable English ancestors, though I be 100% Irish :huh So my own ancestors were part of the problem. That makes me one of the bad guys! :cry
But the Brits are far from being the worst even though sometimes they were on the wrong side. But as often as not the greatest critics of the British were the British themselves. Which is a healthy thing for any nation.
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Britain was not the small and somewhat insignificant country it is today.
I think you need to study the history of Britain more in depth, and I honestly am going to be laughing at you for the next 100 years if you really feel the UK is so insignificant today.
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The only German ace/pilot(other than Goering) I know of that was a member of the Nazi party was Assi Hann, and I'm not even sure of him. Most like Galland were very critical of the command structure.
As far as swastika's in our game I would rather not see them associated with any German plane. Finns? Spanish civil war? I think we can live without that bit of realism.
You can add many more to this, but many were also against the party.
Nowotny comes in mind, as well as Krupinsky, - and Rudel stayed Nazi AFAIK. (Gunther Rall referred to him as "Nuts")
Mölders however was the other side of the coin.
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I think you need to study the history of Britain more in depth, and I honestly am going to be laughing at you for the next 100 years if you really feel the UK is so insignificant today.
No offense, but the impact of Britain on world economy, politics or military power is negligible - definitely not super-power and I would not even place it in the second rank. France and Germany are much more influential in the EU. Do you want to go into football? Today it is no more than a large European state with good cultural exposure and maker of good documentaries.
All this is besides the point. I love Britain and British history more than any other nation, but still, the classic portrayal of Britain as the historical "good guys" is highly biased. In context of this thread, it seems that British soldiers were often fighting for the "wrong side" - however nobody will ask "why did they do that?" about the British soldiers.
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I agree with you Bozon.
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I can not believe how ignorant some people are, to even have to remind others and/or themselves that "they were humans too". Wake up, please, and smell the ****.
There were arses on both sides and various crimes commited. The difference being that the losers were forced to admit defeat and confess their crimes, while the winners continued comitting theirs with reinforced confidence after the war... business as usual.
My grandfather, and his brother, both deported and imprisoned to a forced labor camp solely because they were university students. After less than a year of the original ~8000 students remained ~5500, at that time they were sent to the front line as cannon fodder. Mine clearing duties as penal workers batallions awaited. At the front, they and their company made a choice, to fight against communism and for the freedom of their own country, Estonia. So one night they did not just clear paths through the minefield they crossed the front line and into the german positions to surrender to the germans, volunteering for duty.
So don't give me that crap about the good vs evil fight, or right vs wrong, because all I see is grey, and all of it stinks and it still does today.
This is my personal opinion and does not in any way represent the opinion of my squad or other members of my squad.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA4oE_dSzUE
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I don't know... but if you some day have to go to war, you will realize that it is people you are shooting at and killing. As in, other human beings. As opposed to some entertaining game that you log on to for some fun, whenever you feel like it, to kill pixelated "nazis".
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No offense, but the impact of Britain on world economy, politics or military power is negligible - definitely not super-power and I would not even place it in the second rank. France and Germany are much more influential in the EU. Do you want to go into football? Today it is no more than a large European state with good cultural exposure and maker of good documentaries.
All this is besides the point. I love Britain and British history more than any other nation, but still, the classic portrayal of Britain as the historical "good guys" is highly biased. In context of this thread, it seems that British soldiers were often fighting for the "wrong side" - however nobody will ask "why did they do that?" about the British soldiers.
A very good post. "Right" is relative, and never unbiased.
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Is it.....or is it not....
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Is it.....or is it not....
And that is entirely based on your own point of view. What you may consider right I may consider wrong. Example: Just ask the question "is the death penalty right or wrong" on this bbs and if Skuzzy is on vacation the thread will become a monster.
Morality is relative.
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In fact part of the reason a more efficient and cleaner method of killing was devised was simply because many of the executioners couldn't cope with what they were doing.
Please do not imply that in any way that these butchers were being merciful.
Quite simply, if I was German back then. I would have joined in enthusiastically fought for my country and never apologised for it. It's the way of things.
To fight with one’s countrymen is not unpardonable. It is the atrocities committed in Europe and in China by the Axis in WW2 that warrant sincere and repeated apologies. Germany is still contrite after 65 years. What was done cannot be undone. But, at least, it can be remembered as pure horror that must not be repeated.
An inspiration for the OP was the thought of “what would I have done?” It haunts me that I, too, would have probably gone with the flow.
Americans will normally tend to associate the British as the "good guys" - except when their independence war comes to mind.
To reference Americans for a sense of history is like referencing the British for a sense of cooking or Germans for a sense of humor. I think it was a British guy who said something like: “German comedy is no laughing matter.” Pardon the stereotyping, but I thought it funny.
In context of this thread, it seems that British soldiers were often fighting for the "wrong side" - however nobody will ask "why did they do that?" about the British soldiers.
The context of this thread was originally to look at airmen in WW2. Many of our relatives have living memories of this time. WW2 is much more personal to many of us than the American Revolution or the Opium Wars. In history, there are countless examples of wrong sidedness. Sometimes, the wrong side won, and rewrote history. I’ll leave these cases to another thread.
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And that is entirely based on your own point of view. What you may consider right I may consider wrong. Example: Just ask the question "is the death penalty right or wrong" on this bbs and if Skuzzy is on vacation the thread will become a monster.
Morality is relative.
Does that apply to good or bad, or did you study enough philosophy to blur the difference?
Time is also relative...
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What?
Do you think morality isn't relative and subjective?
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When thinking about the war I also remember that the true humanity of each side is never revealed until the dust settles.
For the men in the front line trenches, I assure you, they knew their enemy and it was not all hatred but also respect and a mutual understanding. Even compassion sometimes as men would stop killing eachother (sometimes organized, sometimes spontaneously as both sides found themselves exhausted by the killing) and let wounded be evacuated. This is not to say there weren't any hate or very bitter fighting. One must understand that the battlefield mentality change as much as the weather and different units had different traditions, history and reputation not to mention leaders who set the spirit and standards of the whole unit.
I've not seen anything even close to what my grandfather did on the eastern front, but I've dug deep in historical literature and remember how my grandfather was, and had some experiences myself in the service. All front soldiers have one thing in common, they wish for the killing to stop. It is not natural for man to kill another man, it has to be taught. Some learn to kill, some learn to hate and through hate to kill without remorse, some never learn to kill without grief. This is regardless of side and I dare say that if you say different you're a liar. Look at the suicide statistics of US vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan. The men who keep fighting regardless do it for one thing and one thing only, a sense of duty and honor.
What I mean is, to clarify, that the true humanity of each side is... the same. There is no difference whatsoever. If you believe differently you have obviously bought the propaganda package, and not experienced these matters first hand.
Ignorance is bliss.
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What trenches have you been in? Sweden doesnt exactly have a modern history of filling them.
And the Western Allies did fight and defeat something totally evil in WW-ll. I could recomend plenty of books and web sights if you dont learn history over there.
For the men in the front line trenches, I assure you, they knew their enemy and it was not all hatred but also respect and a mutual understanding. Even compassion sometimes as men would stop killing eachother (sometimes organized, sometimes spontaneously as both sides found themselves exhausted by the killing) and let wounded be evacuated. This is not to say there weren't any hate or very bitter fighting. One must understand that the battlefield mentality change as much as the weather and different units had different traditions, history and reputation not to mention leaders who set the spirit and standards of the whole unit.
I've not seen anything even close to what my grandfather did on the eastern front, but I've dug deep in historical literature and remember how my grandfather was, and had some experiences myself in the service. All front soldiers have one thing in common, they wish for the killing to stop. It is not natural for man to kill another man, it has to be taught. Some learn to kill, some learn to hate and through hate to kill without remorse, some never learn to kill without grief. This is regardless of side and I dare say that if you say different you're a liar. Look at the suicide statistics of US vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan. The men who keep fighting regardless do it for one thing and one thing only, a sense of duty and honor.
What I mean is, to clarify, that the true humanity of each side is... the same. There is no difference whatsoever. If you believe differently you have obviously bought the propaganda package, and not experienced these matters first hand.
Ignorance is bliss.
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I'd like to add that this thread was brought up on the JG11 board by one of our members to bring it to Vilkas' attention, so that he may reply to it should he want to. He has opted not to, as it brings back too many and too painful memories for him. I think that alone says a lot and is something to consider for some of you.
For those of you who don't know who Vilkas is, he was born Lithuanian, it was not his choice but that's how he came to this world. At the age of 13 he was forcibly drafted by the germans to be a flak gunner. He looked older than he was. 13 years old guys! Just think about that for a while.
At this young age, he saw friends mutilated, blown up, killed outright. As a flak gunner on a 20mm (those we toy around with ingame) he scored 2 aerial kills, both TBMs. As he put it, it was a cat and mouse game between aa gunners and allied attack aircraft, a very deadly game. It is easy to forget just how deadly this game was irl, this game that we amuse ourselves with online late at night.
A boy recruited at age 13, his youth stolen, scarred by memories for life and like many vets left with the feeling of never being understood by anybody, not even his closest family.
I think that most of you will never comprehend in your lifetime, just how hard it can be to be a survivor. At the same time, be glad you won't find out!
Edit: spelling and correction of words
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What trenches have you been in? Sweden doesnt exactly have a modern history of filling them.
And the Western Allies did fight and defeat something totally evil in WW-ll. I could recomend plenty of books and web sights if you dont learn history over there.
I'll tell you straight up that your post is completely ignorant and not worthy of a reply.
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I'd like to add that this thread was brought up on the JG11 board by one of our members to bring it to Vilkas' attention, so that he may reply to it should he want to. He has opted not to, as it brings back too many and too painful memories for him. I think that alone says a lot and is something to consider for some of you.
No disrespect to Vilkas or others like him was intended when I started this thread. I would not wish to open old wounds.
It illustrates my vague point in that he was put in mortal danger in service of a brutal regime. There are arguments that the planes he defended against were part of a brutal doctrine of destroying civilian targets. I agree that there are gray areas. Had he been defending London during the Blitz, it would have been horrible, but he would be celebrated in history. I think this is similar to what I was trying to bring out in the OP.
Please convey my respect and regards to Vilkas.
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Any regime can be brutal when facing defeat. The USA has been assasinating political leaders, staged coups and killed millions of people worldwide since 1945, many of them civilians.
Look, there is no point in blame, or saying who's right and who's wrong. The point I wanted to make is that in the end, war is about killing other human beings. Whether the enemy is human, or humane, or not, is not a matter of debate, it is fact. Whether you like it or not.
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What?
Do you think morality isn't relative and subjective?
It gets all grey. The defining is...at best...difficult.
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And the Western Allies did fight and defeat something totally evil in WW-ll. I could recomend plenty of books and web sights if you dont learn history over there.
I assure you that America and the UK and many other countries are not knights in shinning armour,
For instance in Iraq and Afghanistan the allies have done some terribly evil things..even today there is a thing as propaganda, but lets not go down this route as it opens a can of worms, but if you think our toejam dont smell..then you need to take off your blinkers.
for instance, did you know during WW2 the British tortured German officers in London?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/12/secondworldwar.world
would YOU not say that was evil and inhumane?
Despite what people say, I honestly do not believe them..when your in the toejam getting rpgs/rockets fired at you..the last thing your thinking is " God save our country..our country is so great bs" your thinking... about 2 things! To stay alive, and to keep your buddy alive, your not thinking about some BS oath of allegiance..or to serve your country proud BS, and your also thinking about how to kill the enemy. Yes during moments I felt proud to do what I was doing, Mostly I was proud and enjoyed being with the men I was with, War is dirty and its not pleasant due to friends being killed men are capable of savage revenge, and its easy for a historian to turn around and say how evil these men were without ever feeling the emotions that was being felt at the time.
I hold no grudge against an Afghan/ Iraqi person or judge them any different to anyone else, they have a big culture difference which is hard for some people to understand because its different, yet some of them are far more interesting and intelligent than some English and American people I have meet in my time, and now I look at it from there view..take of your blinkers while I describe this because it may offend you,
the Allies invade Iraq and occupy the country, they have had hospitals and schools destroyed in the fighting and are angry, no proof of WMDs have been found so they suspect the war is about oil, they dont like the way they are treated by occupying forces, and start joining the Iraqi resistance that maybe supplied/ trained by Iran, to try and claim back their country, they call themselves freedom fighters, we call them terrorists.
a similar thing happened in ww2, France got invaded by Germany and occupied..French civilians received training and weapons from the allies, for instance SOE. They then conducted guerilla style attacks on the Germans, bombing railroads etc, we glorified these people, honoured them etc, we called them the french resistance, what did the Germans call them? if it was today they would have been labeled terrorists by the Germans.
the point im trying to make is that war is not black and white and during WW2 us allies were not all Angels that did nothing wrong or inhumane, please dont start debating the references to Iraq/Afghanistan i was just trying to use them as an example, lets not get political
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also,
Instead of discussing who done what, and who was more evil. It would be better to talk about acts of heroism and bravery by both side of the war and remember the heroes and the sacrifices they made, Lets also never forget the courage and discipline both sides displayed by all those who fought and answered their nations call to arms to fight.
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a similar thing happened in ww2, France got invaded by Germany and occupied..French civilians received training and weapons from the allies, for instance SOE. They then conducted guerilla style attacks on the Germans, bombing railroads etc, we glorified these people, honoured them etc, we called them the french resistance, what did the Germans call them? if it was today they would have been labeled terrorists by the Germans.
These were the same Germans that killed off entire races on an Industrialized scale right? By the Millions? The same ones that invaded the eastern countries killing off entire populations just because they didnt want to feed them? Taking their land for their own living space on some kind of deranged master race relocation program? Woman and kids into death camps, lined up by the thousands, shot in the head, and buried in trenches. Grotesque science experiments on children, again, as actual Governmental policy?
Then we got the Japanese. They enslaved tens of thousands of Korean woman and kept them in rape camps for their soldiers. Again as an act of Govt. policy. Their barbarity was on a scale to rival the Nazis.
So to tell you the truth I dont care what the Germans called the French resistance. I dont care what the Jap called anybody.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/koreas-comfort-women-the-slaves-revolt-814763.html
At the age of 15, she says she was taken and sent to a Japanese base in Manchuria. On her second night, before her first menstru-ation, she was raped. Soldiers lined up night after night to abuse her. She has scars below her neck from cigarette burns and says she suffers headaches from a beating she took at the hands of a Japanese officer. "I still have blood tears in my soul when I think about what happened," she says.
for instance, did you know during WW2 the British tortured German officers in London?
Oh gosh, thats really shocking. :huh BTW after the war? We hung a bunch of them too.
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These were the same Germans that killed off entire races on an Industrialized scale right? By the Millions? The same ones that invaded the eastern countries killing off entire populations just because they didnt want to feed them? Taking their land for their own living space on some kind of deranged master race relocation program? Woman and kids into death camps, lined up by the thousands, shot in the head, and buried in trenches. Grotesque science experiments on children, again, as actual Governmental policy?
Then we got the Japanese. They enslaved tens of thousands of Korean woman and kept them in rape camps for their soldiers. Again as an act of Govt. policy. Their barbarity was on a scale to rival the Nazis.
So to tell you the truth I dont care what the Germans called the French resistance. I dont care what the Jap called anybody.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/koreas-comfort-women-the-slaves-revolt-814763.html
Oh gosh, thats really shocking. :huh BTW after the war? We hung a bunch of them too.
what about how bad American slavery, discrimination and segregation that went on for so long? but do you honestly believe the allies were so good?
what do you want point fingers at each other all day saying who done what?? all Im saying is be a little open minded, our soup stinks too you know, I think your being a little naive
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what about how bad American slavery, discrimination and segregation that went on for so long? but do you honestly believe the allies were so good?
what do you want point fingers at each other all day saying who done what?? all Im saying is be a little open minded, our soup stinks too you know, I think your being a little naive
Keeping the discussion within the confines of WW2, it is a matter of scale and cultural acceptance. Yes, the US was segregated through the war. Horrible individual racially motivated crimes were committed. This pales compared Japanese newspaper glorifying two lieutenants' competition on who could behead more Chinese.
Neither can be accepted by an open mind. To equate the bad on the Allied side and the extreme institutionalized brutality on the Axis is completely off.
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...
Look at the suicide statistics of US vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan. The men who keep fighting regardless do it for one thing and one thing only, a sense of duty and honor.
US wars are very different than what most other nations experience. The US does not fight on its soil and its population is not under fire. This fact selects a whole different array of reasons for individuals to join the war - among them, sense of duty and honor that you mentioned, but also plenty of other more mundane reasons. However, when your own home is being attacked and your beloved are underfire, it does not matter anymore why the war started or who is the "right" side. Nor does honor or duty play any part here and you can google "morality and humanity" after the war is over. People WILL fight on the wrong side, just because they happen to be there when it became wrong, but they are not fighting for the wrong side - they are fighting for their family and friends. It is a very primitive human behavior that is embedded in us. Dictators and other dark regimes understand this very well and exploit this.
I was serving in the IDF in the 90s when we were sitting in the security zone in S.Lebanon. I did not believe we should be there, I did not like how my country was handling the situation, but I was there squeaking and cursing because my friends were being shot at. In the last Lebanon war I was back with my unit just hours after the first barrage of rockets landed in Haifa. My service buddies all showed up even before they were called and non of them cared about the good of the country or whose fault it is that we are in this situation. What triggered all of them was an attack on civilians, people they know. All I knew was that my wife was going to work and back, every day for 30 days under rocket fire (the largest barrages were timed to the morning and afternoon when people were commuting and out of buildings) and her working place is in the Haifa bay area right in the center of the rocket dispersion area. At this point you don't give a watermelon if some building collapsed on Lebanese civilians because the building next to it had launcher vehicles in it and was bombed. When you vaporise a launcher-vehicle together with its operators crew that are trying to escape after a barrage on Haifa, you are not fighting for a cause or a country or even a "side" - you are just defending your wife.
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It gets all grey. The defining is...at best...difficult.
That's what relative and subjective means.
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I did not believe we should be there, I did not like how my country was handling the situation, but I was there squeaking and cursing because my friends were being shot at.
I agree with all of what you said, but find this the most important. Protecting family is a given if your home country is under attack, that will make most any man take to arms. At the front however in some distant land, your friends lives and your own life is what you fight for, as they essentially are your family.
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At the front however in some distant land, your friends lives and your own life is what you fight for, as they essentially are your family.
errr.. that "front in some distant land" is 30 km from my house...
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Thats not the point I was making. Of course when the bullets are flying an oath is the last thing your thinking about.
The fact is when you raise your hand and take that oath you are "legally bound" to it. Understand? It has the legal/moral weight of a freight train. Violate it and you going to end up in all kinds of trouble. So its probably best you actually understand and believe in it when they make you take it.
Im a Policeman and had to take an oath to uphold the Constitution and Laws of my state, "and had to take one when I joined the service". Did I/Do I think about it every day? Of course not! But I am bound by it, and so were you.
Violate that oath and your going to find yourself in a world of trouble. Cause I dont think the defense, "Aww I just needed a job" is going to help you much.
Course your probably right that oaths dont mean as much as they used to. The Wehrmacht of that era, and before, was an extremely professional and tradition bound service, and one with a high level of discipline. You can bet taking that oath meant a lot to both the soldiers, their command, and their Fuhrer.
And for the folks that didn't get a choice about the oath?
I suggest you have a nice conversation with Vilkas.
He'll tell you a little story about a tiny village in Lithuania that the German Army marched through when he was 13.
When they asked for volunteers, some did not step up, some refused, all who did either........... were summarily shot.
I can't imagine he was thinking about any "oaths" when he decided to comply and be trained as an ack gunner at 13 years old considering what happened to the adults and older boys in the village.
Furthermore, at the outset of the war, nobody was preaching genocide. They were preaching a better life for a beat-down and post WWI Germany. It wasn't until the war machine was in full swing that the atrocities began, while the ones in power started turning the wheels of propaganda.
I refer you to your own esoteric signature which you seem to be so fond of dramatically pointing at like it is some grand and all-encompassing final authority.
Bottom line is that after the beginning of the war and the Nazi's gained more and more power, the "choice" of participating in the German military, became less and less of a choice. Anyone who has served in a active combat zone knows that most of these boys were not thinking about any oath that they took while they were in the field. It was more often than not, thoughts mor along the line of
Will I have something to eat today?
Will I be bombed in my sleep (if I even get a chance to get some shut-eye)?
Will they ever run out of bombs?
Is someone going to shoot me while I am taking a piss?
Did my mechanic do all the necessary PM's and/or repairs to my aircraft, today?
Will I make it to see tomorrow?
War for a soldier (airman, etc) puts daily life into very simple terms, most of which do not include time for political ruminations.
In war there isn't a "bad" side. You fight for your country because it is what you signed up to do which is defend your nation and it's beliefs regardless of what the circumstances were. When in the armed forced, you do what you are told, end of story. In the end there are only the dead and the living.
To speak in terms of "everyone knew, but did nothing" is complete and utter garbage, and quite honestly, offensive to anyone who is German or of German descent.
EDIT:
Oops, I fed the troll, sorry :o
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I worked for an ack gunner (German) who's whole class was pulled out and made into a flak unit when he was 15. That was in 1943.
Half of the lot got killed before the war was over. My boss just had scars on the inside....buty also an eye missing.
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I just read Papy Boington's (excuse me if i misspelled) Ba Ba Black Sheep. After he was shot down, during one of many interrogation sessions he was asked a question and his answer was "you bastards started this war." the response he got from a high ranking Japanese solider was a question that went something like this; what if the only means you had to sustain your family was trading with five merchants at the only market around. Then one day those merchants refused to trade with you, what would you do?
Just an example of what a Japanese soldier was thinking the war was about.
He also told of Japanese civilian who were severely beaten for giving the pows food, but continued to due so.
So I guess I'm on the side of "there are no wrong sides", there are no "good wars" and history if defiantly written by the victors. I'm not in any way trying to justify or support any of the atrocities that were made, just saying there were made on all sides. Case in point; I recently watched an American WW2 vet in a documentary that was in the Philippines at the end of the war talk about what happened to some of the Japanese pows after hostilities had ceased. They would tell the pows they were going home and loaded them onto a boat. When they reached a sufficient distance from shore they were thrown overboard. Some where used as target practice while others were simply left to drown or for the sharks. He said that this happened on a number of occasions. We never learned about things like that in school. Like the man said "be a little open minded"
:salute
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errr.. that "front in some distant land" is 30 km from my house...
Urban gangstas? :D
Edit: Well said VonMessa.