Fighting for the wrong side.

[Guppy35]

One of the first books on the Holacaust I read when I was younger was "The Murderers Among Us' by Simon Wiesenthal.  He spent his life hunting Nazi war criminals, and was a survivor of the concentration camps. 

He was very clear that he did not believe in collective guilt.  One of the stories he tells in the book is about a German Feldwebel who was a devout Catholic.  He ended up bringing food, medicine and whatever he could to one of the Jewish Ghettos.  He was found out by the Gestapo and sentenced to death.  In a letter written to his wife, he talked about wanting to be a helper and that he felt it his duty as a human being to do what he did to help those in need.

How do you judge a man like that?  Was he a traitor, or was he a man who stepped beyond borders to be a decent human being.  I think you can find the good guys and bad guys in every country. 

[CAP1]

I cant speak for others, But when I was in Afghanistan and the rest of the guys I was with all said and thought the same thing, we dont give a damn about queen and country, we are just fighting to save each other..I dont even remember my oath of allegiance, it was just something I had to do to get in the army.

I fought for the man standing next to me 

probably the truest, and most sincere words in this thread.

 

[BnZs]

The immediate cause of WWII was the territorial ambition of Germany and Japan. It is hard for me to condemn those in military service to those nations in WWII as especially wicked unless they practiced unnecessary brutality/murder. This is because virtually every nation on the face of the Earth has fought wars for expansion, and millions of soldiers from virtually every nation have at one time or another drawn pay for fighting in these wars. Those nations that WON these wars tend to still be somewhat glorified or at least not terribly vilified to this day. Rome springs to mind, as does the British Empire or the United State's wars with the Indians.

There is a reason why the Irish republic abstained from WWII...fighting alongside the British to "keep small nations free" would have seemed exceedingly odd given England's history with Ireland.

The Japanese thought they were only doing in Asia what European colonialists had already done for centuries.

The rub is that by the time of WWII, naked aggression for territorial purposes had gone out of fashion in the democratic West. Germany and Japan lagged behind ideologically, and thus found themselves one the receiving end of the (newly) righteous might of the Allied nations.

[Rich46yo]

I cant speak for others, But when I was in Afghanistan and the rest of the guys I was with all said and thought the same thing, we dont give a damn about queen and country, we are just fighting to save each other..I dont even remember my oath of allegiance, it was just something I had to do to get in the army.

I fought for the man standing next to me 

Thats not the point I was making. Of course when the bullets are flying an oath is the last thing your thinking about.

The fact is when you raise your hand and take that oath you are "legally bound" to it. Understand? It has the legal/moral weight of a freight train. Violate it and you going to end up in all kinds of trouble. So its probably best you actually understand and believe in it when they make you take it.

Im a Policeman and had to take an oath to uphold the Constitution and Laws of my state, "and had to take one when I joined the service". Did I/Do I think about it every day? Of course not! But I am bound by it, and so were you.

Violate that oath and your going to find yourself in a world of trouble. Cause I dont think the defense, "Aww I just needed a job" is going to help you much.

Course your probably right that oaths dont mean as much as they used to. The Wehrmacht of that era, and before, was an extremely professional and tradition bound service, and one with a high level of discipline. You can bet taking that oath meant a lot to both the soldiers, their command, and their Fuhrer.

[BlauK]

Yup, I've made a  military oath too, over 20 years ago. Most Finns do compulsory military service. The oath matters if the person making it truly believes in the values. I am standing behind my oath, but the circumstances are quite different than for many in 1940's

I am betting that many foreign SS-soldiers, or e.g. many Luftwaffe pilots did not consider Hitler and his agendas primarily, or at all, when making their oaths. For them it was just a formality to get on with their career or adventure or service to their own foreign country, like in the case of the Finns.

[RufusLeaking]

First, allow me to salute all of the responders.  It is nice to see a thread that has not degenerated into - "You're a noob." - "No, you're a noob."

I glad to see that there were some fellow history nerds out there.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

The OP was hopefully worded carefully as not to wrongly point fingers or whitewash the wrongs done by the Western Allies.  Quotes below are edited for length, not content or spinning.

And then again Luftwaffe was the most "independent thinking" branch of German military -  it had fewest political fanatics compared to other branches, some of its members openly disregarding nazi authorities. They fought driven by sense of duty, maybe because of pride of being world's best trained air warriors, but I don't think many of them believed all the master race crap.
Sry for my English

I have read many books on the Luftwaffe.  The 'War Diaries' was published several decades ago.  Adolph Galland and Ernst Udet are two men who illustrate your point.  In my younger years, I was a USAF pilot humbly flying KC135s.  I can testify to the egos of pilots and the culture of proving oneself to your peers.  Your English is excellent, btw.

Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.

That millions died as a direct result of the Western Allies policies is indisputable.  Note the recent discussion regarding the destruction of Caen in June, 1944. 

Also undeniable is that the Axis atrocities were cut from a different cloth.  In fact, one would have to go back to the 1870's in the US to find anything like that genocidal zeal (Native American extermination).  As this is a WW2 themed game, I was trying to stay focused.  That, and I was trying to keep the "Blame America First" crowd at bay.

So sorry, I dont give them a pass as others might.

It is not about giving anyone a pass.  It is about how to reconcile my respect for their bravery with the ultimate objectives of their cause.  In no way can I endorse fascism.  I lost all respect for Charles Lindberg when I read that he refused to fly against the Nazis.  I will not buy Chanel perfume as Coco Chanel was a highly visible collaborator.  No passes given here.

IThe jews of the time are the terrorist of today.

Terrible analogy.  Sorry, I try to be open minded, but there is no indication that Jews in early 20th century Germany were terrorists in the same way that 21st century terrorists crash jets into buildings.  The Jews were wrongfully blamed for the loss in WW1 and subsequent depression era hardships.

Mind you that finns weren't exactly evil even if they were part of the axis and I would venture to say that the allies committed more evil deeds.

I have learned a long ago to respect most soldiers regardless of their side. Those who I don't respect are those who have committed evil deeds by their own sadistic, brutal or otherwise twisted will.

Never accused the Finns of anything.  It was the discussion that reignited this mental confusion on my part.  Also, your succinct conclusion nails it down pretty good.  What is left for debate is the definition of sadistic, brutal or twisted.  Witness the current debate of water boarding.

Rufus, my deceased grandfather served in the 100th Infantry as well. His name was Charles Meyers. He was originally a medic and then got handed a rifle and got told "go kill germans" (nazi's). After the war he and some others set up a small medical clinic in a somewhat small german town. I"m interested in knowing if there is any connection between my grandfather and your grandfathers brother.
 

Wow.  Either it's a small world or it was a big army.  A correction: it was my uncle, my father's brother.  Yes, I am that old.  He did not remain in Europe through V-E day.  He ended up recovering in the same veterans' hospital as Bob Dole.  I will pm you his name.

Pretty similar to the US Armed Forces Oath, at least

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

They don't say "President Barack Obama, Commander in Chief of the United States Military" or whatever, but it's the same concept.

This is the oath of enlistment.  As an officer, I never had to swear to obey the President.  I did not recall that phrase.  I was surprised to find separate oaths for enlisted and officers. 

Yup, I've made a  military oath too, over 20 years ago. Most Finns do compulsory military service. The oath matters if the person making it truly believes in the values. I am standing behind my oath, but the circumstances are quite different than for many in 1940's

I, too, took my oath seriously.  Back then, we were taught that we were only obliged to follow lawful orders.  Perhaps I am rationalizing, but I always saw this as an opening to prosecute those whose defense was "only following orders."  The oath also had some words about taking it freely and without the purpose of evasion.  I imagine the Gestapo would coerce potential recruits and their families.

Whew.  Thanks again for the excellent responses.  My apology for the length of this reply, but there were so many good points made.  This post merely scratches the surface.

[mipoikel]

Interesting thread. And if we speak about jews in war...

1.) The Winter War

In 1939 there was some 1700 Jews in Finland. Approximately 260 Finnish Jews participated in the Winter War, 200 of whom served at the front. There were also several Jewish volunteers coming from Europe, some of them desperately seeking a way to escape Nazi influence. Jewishness was not emphasised in the army; anti-Semitism was not an issue, and neither was the war particularly problematic for the Jews ideologically, for Finland was merely seen as defending itself against an attack by the Soviet Union. The war united the Jews with Finland more strongly than anything before, and it has been said that with their effort, they proved they truly were Finns

2.) The Continuation War

In the summer of 1941, Finland joined the war Germany had started against the Soviet Union. In this Continuation War the loyalty of Finnish Jews was put to test. Nevertheless, the Jews fought like everyone else. The Jewish magazine Makkabi declared in December 1942 that they were fighting “for the freedom and independence of Finland”. Relationships with the Germans were described as correct, even friendly. Most Jews spoke German, which may have contributed to friendships being formed. Jewishness of these soldiers was not hidden from the Germans, and there even was a field synagogue.



Furloughs were given for Sabbaths, and some came from considerable distances to attend. The Germans were aware of the synagogue but did not interfere. Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative. When asked about their Jewish soldiers, Finnish superiors usually defended them, saying they were no different from other Finns. Jewish medical officers treated German patients and saved their lives, even risking their own. Several Jews were awarded German decorations, and no instance is known of German soldiers refusing to co-operate with Finnish Jewish officers. During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.

[Selino631]

My grandparents on my moms side of the family imigrated to the United States from Italy in the 30's. my granfather served in the U.S. Navy but his cousin who still lived in italy at the time was forced into the Italian Army. and fought in north africa and siciliy.

[Angus]

My great uncle served with the RAF. His next door playmate from childhood ended up as an inmate in Sachsenhausen which was a very bad thing. They both survived.
My grandfather was a fisherman in the Icelandic waters at the time, thereby aiding the British with their feeding. (Since most of the fish went to the UK).
Meantime, my wife's grandfather was drafted and put into the German Kriegsmarine as a submariner. Their submarines started sinking Icelandic fishing boats about the time that my grandfather quit as a sailor, and entered farming, and her grandfather got re-routed to work as an engineer on a minesweeper.
Both survived the war.

Fate is....twisty....

[Die Hard]

Interesting thread. And if we speak about jews in war...

1.) The Winter War

In 1939 there was some 1700 Jews in Finland. Approximately 260 Finnish Jews participated in the Winter War, 200 of whom served at the front. There were also several Jewish volunteers coming from Europe, some of them desperately seeking a way to escape Nazi influence. Jewishness was not emphasised in the army; anti-Semitism was not an issue, and neither was the war particularly problematic for the Jews ideologically, for Finland was merely seen as defending itself against an attack by the Soviet Union. The war united the Jews with Finland more strongly than anything before, and it has been said that with their effort, they proved they truly were Finns

2.) The Continuation War

In the summer of 1941, Finland joined the war Germany had started against the Soviet Union. In this Continuation War the loyalty of Finnish Jews was put to test. Nevertheless, the Jews fought like everyone else. The Jewish magazine Makkabi declared in December 1942 that they were fighting “for the freedom and independence of Finland”. Relationships with the Germans were described as correct, even friendly. Most Jews spoke German, which may have contributed to friendships being formed. Jewishness of these soldiers was not hidden from the Germans, and there even was a field synagogue.

(Image removed from quote.)

Furloughs were given for Sabbaths, and some came from considerable distances to attend. The Germans were aware of the synagogue but did not interfere. Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative. When asked about their Jewish soldiers, Finnish superiors usually defended them, saying they were no different from other Finns. Jewish medical officers treated German patients and saved their lives, even risking their own. Several Jews were awarded German decorations, and no instance is known of German soldiers refusing to co-operate with Finnish Jewish officers. During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.

You paint a pretty picture, and for the Finnish Jews that is mostly true. However Jewish immigrants were not treated as kindly; they were interned in camps and some were used as forced laborers (polite term for slaves), and some were handed over to the Germans. Your prime minister in 2000, Paavo Lipponen, issued an official apology for that. Also, Yad Vashem records that 22 Finnish Jews died in the Nazi death camps.

[Angus]

Which would be very much a smaller number than Norwegian Jews dying in camps, and not even getting close to non-jewish Norsemen dying in the camps or being executed/murdered, which again points to it being a fact that the Finnish then somehow succeeded, - despite working temporarily with the Germans, - to put an umbrella over most of the Jews.
Wonder how many Lapplanders died when the Germans raized Lappland...

[Die Hard]

The number is minuscule compared to some other European nations, but whether you imprison and force into slave labor a few hundred Jews or a million you're still a slaver in either case, and the number of Jews you deliver to the death camps has no bearing on the basic crime and the antisemitism it represents.

[Angus]

In this case, I'd say "Size matters". Since most of the Jews were okay, these were the ones that were not successfully shielded.
In any country and any authority there are always a few naughty people in command...

[MrRiplEy[H]]

You paint a pretty picture, and for the Finnish Jews that is mostly true. However Jewish immigrants were not treated as kindly; they were interned in camps and some were used as forced laborers (polite term for slaves), and some were handed over to the Germans. Your prime minister in 2000, Paavo Lipponen, issued an official apology for that. Also, Yad Vashem records that 22 Finnish Jews died in the Nazi death camps.

As a sidenote _all_ so called immigrants (russians that moved to newly occupied land) were interned because there was a rampant desant problem and basically no place to put them. Leaving them to wander around would have been a major security risk. Just as in US the Japanese immigrants were interned to avoid sabotage etc.

The camps were no doubt horrible mostly due to lack of food as the whole country was starving and I'm sure the occupying folks were not the first ones when rations were handed out. The ones that got to go to labour at the farms were lucky - farmtime was considered a lottery win because you could always get food at the production plant directly.

I have no knowledge of forced labour being used in heavy mining etc. that would have killed people. Finland had thousands and thousands of war prisoners and you'd think there'd be some kind of monuments or tunnels built if they were used like the Germans did.

[Die Hard]

I was more concerned with the Jewish refugees from Europe and the Baltic states that fled from the Nazi horrors. These were the ones that was handed over to the Gestapo and murdered.

So in other words you do have knowledge of forced labor being used, just not in "heavy mining etc."? I paraphrase from what I have read on the matter: "They were worked until their fingers bled and did not have clothing sufficient for the cold winters".