Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on August 18, 2009, 03:36:22 PM
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Checking the stats so far in LW tour 115 and see the 239 holding its own with K-2904 to D-3004 posting a 0.96 K/D/R.
Heres the top victims for this bird. Spit-16s 217 kills, Seafires 167, P-51Ds 195, D-hogs 118, Hellcats 104, Zero5Bs 119.
I'm not surprised its holding its own against Spits. Its score against 16s is K-217 to D-199. Ive only upped 239s a few times. Once I flat out beat a Spit-16 and shot its tail off. Unfortunately I got picked by a K4s 30mm and got blowed up before the Spit hit the ground so I didn't get the kill. The 239 is running about even with Pony-Ds, almost even with LA-7s, a little better then even with Hurri-Cs, holding its own against Corsairs, eating up Hellcats, getting picked to death by the FW-run90s. Other eastern front aircraft its doing fine against Yaks, murdering LA-5s, and running about even with I-16s.
In the Pacific its doing fine against zeros, doing better against the KI-67s then the 61s, and against the P-40s and P-39s its doing very well.
All in all pretty impressive for a slow 25 eny aircraft with no drop tanks. Maybe the other arenas are better places to guage it but if it can do this well in the pick and run 5 eny LWAs then thats a pretty good sign. I hope to spend some time in this airplane in coming months.
I like the B-239 :aok
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Considering it's modeled as uber, and can engage ANY late war monster plane on even footing and most times kill it, I think it's a travesty of an addition to AH.
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Considering it's modeled as uber
You've got to be kidding me. Don't turn with them and you'll be fine. It doesn't surprise me at all that it does well against Spits, because most Spit pilots don't know how to beat anything they can't out-turn.
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You've got to be kidding me. Don't turn with them and you'll be fine. It doesn't surprise me at all that it does well against Spits, because most Spit pilots don't know how to beat anything they can't out-turn.
Spot on. Unless the little bugger has a huge E advantage... the best it can hope for is to evade attacks. Hopefully the attacker will make a mistake and burn his E. Then the brew has a chance.
Once I build my new rig I'll fly her just like an FM-2. Betting I'll get the same results.
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You've got to be kidding me. Don't turn with them and you'll be fine. It doesn't surprise me at all that it does well against Spits, because most Spit pilots don't know how to beat anything they can't out-turn.
Anaxogoras, do not be surprised by the one who defines anything that kills him as "uber".
Typical rant from a child.
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Considering it's modeled as uber, and can engage ANY late war monster plane on even footing and most times kill it, I think it's a travesty of an addition to AH.
i thought the brewster bled energy off a lot faster than it seems to in here?
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Remember, Krusty whines about anything that is good at turning by calling them mismodeled and such.
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I'm not surprised about the B-239's performance, as it has been brought to us by the same guys that gave us uncatchable 350mph heavy bombers or Spit 16s that can accelerate while climbing straight up :noid
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Considering it's modeled as uber, and can engage ANY late war monster plane on even footing and most times kill it, I think it's a travesty of an addition to AH.
This is nothing but nonsense.
When looking at the whole altitude band, it's the slowest fighter in the game. Anyone who's having trouble against the Brewster in "a late war monster" needs to take a serious look at their own tactics.
Modelled as uber? Krusty, you said in another thread that you think Brewster is overmodeled but that you can't prove it. Why then continuosly keep saying that it's "modeled as uber" or that it's "overmodeled" when you don't know what you are talking about? That's the most certain way to loose all credibility you have...oh wait. :lol You've already proven that you really don't know enough about the aircraft in question to be saying much anything about it really.
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That Brewster is more than a handful against a Corsair (at least a Corsair that's intent on turning with it... Forever). It's cleaned my clock more than a few times, but I can't complain about any new aircraft that people are willing to fight in :aok
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(at least a Corsair that's intent on turning with it... Forever).
Key phrase. Basically has to be treated like a tougher, better-armed Zeke.
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You've got to be kidding me. Don't turn with them and you'll be fine. It doesn't surprise me at all that it does well against Spits, because most Spit pilots don't know how to beat anything they can't out-turn.
Ya I must agree. You wouldnt turn with a zero right?
I dont even want to be anywhere near = "E" against a 239.
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Considering it's modeled as uber, and can engage ANY late war monster plane on even footing and most times kill it, I think it's a travesty of an addition to AH.
It has nothing to do with the modeling of the Brewster and all to do with the quality of pilots one is encountering while flying the Brewster.
ack-ack
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Ya I must agree. You wouldnt turn with a zero right?
Exactly. About a week ago I ran into a Brewster in the MW arena and we both merged, the Brewster went into a flat turn to come swing around and I went vertical against it and got the kill. The player in the Brewster complained that I fought him in the vertical, I was actually surprised by this veteran player getting upset because I would not lufberry turn on the deck against his Brewster, where he would have easily chewed up my P-38J.
ack-ack
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Co-E I put the Brewster in the easy to avoid category along with the Zeke and Hurricane.
I may not kill it but if I fly correctly its easily avoidable.
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Exactly. About a week ago I ran into a Brewster in the MW arena and we both merged, the Brewster went into a flat turn to come swing around and I went vertical against it and got the kill. The player in the Brewster complained that I fought him in the vertical, I was actually surprised by this veteran player getting upset because I would not lufberry turn on the deck against his Brewster, where he would have easily chewed up my P-38J.
ack-ack
you BnZ dweeb you!!
:noid :noid :noid :noid
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Exactly. About a week ago I ran into a Brewster in the MW arena and we both merged, the Brewster went into a flat turn to come swing around and I went vertical against it and got the kill. The player in the Brewster complained that I fought him in the vertical, I was actually surprised by this veteran player getting upset because I would not lufberry turn on the deck against his Brewster, where he would have easily chewed up my P-38J.
ack-ack
:confused:, why would you ever want to flat turn a 38 against anything :huh, people are strange what they complain about :lol
:salute
BigRat
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:confused:, why would you ever want to flat turn a 38 against anything :huh, people are strange what they complain about :lol
:salute
BigRat
well, because some people forget that all a loop really is is a flat circle, stood up on it;s side.
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Exactly. About a week ago I ran into a Brewster in the MW arena and we both merged, the Brewster went into a flat turn to come swing around and I went vertical against it and got the kill. The player in the Brewster complained that I fought him in the vertical, I was actually surprised by this veteran player getting upset because I would not lufberry turn on the deck against his Brewster, where he would have easily chewed up my P-38J.
ack-ack
One of my favorite fights was in Beta, me in my 1A vs. his Brewster. I refused to play his game and kept open and vertical, and he whined about me fighting him in an "uber ride." Too bad perks were turned on, otherwise I'd have landed and come back in a -4. :D
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I am curious to see how the I-16 compares, does it post similiar numbers or is it just a target drone for the masses?
ack-ack
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As far as I can see, the I-16 is taken less frequently into the sky (only about 60% of the Brewster's kills & deaths) and with somewhat less success (overall K/D 0.87 compared to 0.97). Not surprsing to me as the I-16 is indeed a more difficult ride than the B-236, especially when it comes to the gun package.
I'm waiting for the end of this tour before I'm doing a more detailed analysis.
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Exactly. About a week ago I ran into a Brewster in the MW arena and we both merged, the Brewster went into a flat turn to come swing around and I went vertical against it and got the kill. The player in the Brewster complained that I fought him in the vertical, I was actually surprised by this veteran player getting upset because I would not lufberry turn on the deck against his Brewster, where he would have easily chewed up my P-38J.
ack-ack
You cheater :D
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With the little time i have had so far with the Brew, it is far from uber but not bad at all overall if you adapt the correct mindset for flying it.
It surely is a lot of sweaty palms to work efficiently with it, but the reward is a nice spitty16 or insertasuperplanehere -kill.
It is too slow for the timid pickers, and also for the flat turn fighters.
But for what it is greatly underestimated, is the ability to rapid changing of flight attitude.
All the Pick51's i have encountered don't seem to grasp how fast the Brew can change angles and reverse their pick to a shooting position.
Then with the 4x laser's it is a matter of holding the beam in a suitable place for 1 to 2 seconds for effect.
I still tend to over-lead a lot, but i am sure i will get more familiar with the lasers in due time.
What is really challenging in a Brew, is to be able to avoid all the picks, and that can be done only by maintaining sufficient E.
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With the little time i have had so far with the Brew, it is far from uber but not bad at all overall if you adapt the correct mindset for flying it.
It surely is a lot of sweaty palms to work efficiently with it, but the reward is a nice spitty16 or insertasuperplanehere -kill.
It is too slow for the timid pickers, and also for the flat turn fighters.
But for what it is greatly underestimated, is the ability to rapid changing of flight attitude.
All the Pick51's i have encountered don't seem to grasp how fast the Brew can change angles and reverse their pick to a shooting position.
Then with the 4x laser's it is a matter of holding the beam in a suitable place for 1 to 2 seconds for effect.
I still tend to over-lead a lot, but i am sure i will get more familiar with the lasers in due time.
What is really challenging in a Brew, is to be able to avoid all the picks, and that can be done only by maintaining sufficient E.
You say it like it's a bad thing! :devil
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Anaxogoras, do not be surprised by the one who defines anything that kills him as "uber".
Typical rant from a child.
Not sure about that - I remember Krusty once telling me where i was going wrong... after i killed him for the third or so consecutive time from reversal shots.
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You say it like it's a bad thing! :devil
No no, i like pickers (and reversing on them especially), and i do my fair share of it my self also, however i do not like the Picker's Extraordinaire who seem possess ability for mind reading and have a glass ball & pointy hat installed in their planes.
You know who i am talking to :devil
Why don't you just fly predictable, set yourself up for easy shots etc, so i don't have to up again from the tower again and again :salute
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As far as I can see, the I-16 is taken less frequently into the sky (only about 60% of the Brewster's kills & deaths) and with somewhat less success (overall K/D 0.87 compared to 0.97). Not surprsing to me as the I-16 is indeed a more difficult ride than the B-236, especially when it comes to the gun package.
I'm waiting for the end of this tour before I'm doing a more detailed analysis.
Cool, was waiting for someone to do that :)
I think the reduced thrust at low speed during beta definitely gave the Brewster the upper hand.
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In an early war set the Brewster is somewhat surprising re its competancy v Spit1's 109E's etc. Its e retention in turn v this birds is very good IMO.
In the MA no late war (or most mid war) ac should loose to it. As often said above stay vertical keep above it and BnZ and its late war opponent will be safe to choose his snap shot.
Hats off to the Finns though its nice to see these birds flown well.... :salute
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In an early war set the Brewster is somewhat surprising re its competancy v Spit1's 109E's etc.
Unfortunately, those planes have been almost rarer in EW than in LW. The introduction if the B-239 and I-16 didn't change the utter dominance of the Hurricane IIC (still having ENY 10 only!) in any way.
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Dude, come on. It's basically an FM2 except it doesn't absorb as much ammo as keep flying. Not nearly as tough to E fight as a Zeke because its thrust/weight is pretty low. By what numerical measure is it significantly more dangerous than the Zekes, Hurris, and FM2s we already had?
Considering it's modeled as uber, and can engage ANY late war monster plane on even footing and most times kill it, I think it's a travesty of an addition to AH.
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Unfortunately, those planes have been almost rarer in EW than in LW. The introduction if the B-239 and I-16 didn't change the utter dominance of the Hurricane IIC (still having ENY 10 only!) in any way.
I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC. The A6M2 and HurriI do not of course IIRC,but then again they can angles fight it on a more than equal footing! I do not understand what the problem is when virtually every plane in the set has an exploitable performance advantage over it. Last time I went up in the EW arena, a wingman and I took up 190 A5s, and engaged some Hurris coming into base in groups of 2-4. Now the 190 A5 is a *terrible* fighter with mediocre guns, but even against this absurdly un-maneuverable brick, the Hurris were not fast enough to force a fight on their terms, did not have the engine power to equal the E state enough to force a disengagement, and couldn't really do anything except dodge, try to HO, and accept that we would be able to make gun pass after guns pass on them in relative safety. Even with my lousy shooting, several Hurris went to the happy hunting ground. Of course if it catches you low and slow enough in a less maneuverable fighter that is probably all she wrote, but that is pretty much true anytime a significantly less maneuverable fighter is caught with its pants by a better turner.
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Not too hard to answer that question BnZs: a big majority of the playerbase can't make use of the advantages most aircraft have over the Hurri IIc. For example, the 109F-4 absolutely owns it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Hurri has the better K/D ratio in that matchup in EW or MW.
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I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC.
The Hurricane Mk IIc is not double superior, but it dominates the EWA like the Spit XVI you so hate can only dream about dominating the LWA.
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I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC. The A6M2 and HurriI do not of course IIRC,but then again they can angles fight it on a more than equal footing! I do not understand what the problem is when virtually every plane in the set has an exploitable performance advantage over it. Last time I went up in the EW arena, a wingman and I took up 190 A5s, and engaged some Hurris coming into base in groups of 2-4. Now the 190 A5 is a *terrible* fighter with mediocre guns, but even against this absurdly un-maneuverable brick, the Hurris were not fast enough to force a fight on their terms, did not have the engine power to equal the E state enough to force a disengagement, and couldn't really do anything except dodge, try to HO, and accept that we would be able to make gun pass after guns pass on them in relative safety. Even with my lousy shooting, several Hurris went to the happy hunting ground. Of course if it catches you low and slow enough in a less maneuverable fighter that is probably all she wrote, but that is pretty much true anytime a significantly less maneuverable fighter is caught with its pants by a better turner.
There are several reasons to it. All root both in the plane's performance as well as the combat environment.
The main thing that can not be underestimated in any way is: firepower. Quad Hispanos DO make a difference. Especially in an arena not particularly crowded with überfirepower planes.Then add to this the very good maneuverability of the Hurricane. You can whirl around and bring your Hizookas to bear. And you don't need much of a burst to send any adversary down in flames. And of course, the Hurri IIC is a very stable gunplatform
And many planes do have an advantage on some areas, but experienced players do often overlook the fact that these advantages are not always being easily exploitable by the average player.
And now add another level: The combat environment. Numbers in EW are very lopsided most of the time. ENY of 10 means that you will quite often face a swarm of Hurricanes, some of them with ample altitude advantage. There's no more thing more ugly in EW than having a Hurricane with E advantage above you waiting to pick you off.
I was very sceptical when i heard that the Hurricane's dominance is just because of not having a sufficient variety of fighters. I expected the I-16 and Brewster wouldn't change much.
It seems I was right :(
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7279/ew115cont.jpg)
And the only reason the A6M is getting numbers that high it's because it's the most capable CV fighter. It's very rarely seen in battles without any CV.
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What's the percentage of sorties by the IIC in the EWA?
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What's the percentage of sorties by the IIC in the EWA?
Nobody knows.
I use "killds+deaths" as a very rough "usage" indicator, but that's about it.
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The Hurricane Mk IIc is not double superior, but it dominates the EWA like the Spit XVI you so hate can only dream about dominating the LWA.
I don't "hate" cartoon airplanes Karnak. I truly, honestly, find it bizarre and illogical to complain so about an airplane that has some obvious and exploitable performance disadvantages vs. nearly everything in the same arena set. You simply cannot call a plane "dominant" when all things being equal, it is not unreasonably hard for most other planes to defeat, and is actually fairly easy for them to avoid. This is popularity contest thinking again, which is not "thinking" at all.
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Lusche, lopsided odds is a good argument for changing the ENY I reckon. It should handicap the high-numbers side, that is its purpose. But I'd say you'd have to change the ENY of planes other than the Hurri in there. Fighting against 5-1 odds with alt is ugly against 109Fs or SpitVs too. Hell, your goose is probably cooked against those odds if they be in P-40s.
You know though, one the planes I'd like to see added is the HurriIIB. Virtually the same as the HurriIIC, 12 .303s would be interesting and effective but not quite insta-death. One could add that, and crank the HurriIIC eny down to 5, although IMO it would still be a bizarre situation, because the high-performing 109 Fritz and the Zero which owns the Hurri in almost every respect would have higher ENY.
There are several reasons to it. All root both in the plane's performance as well as the combat environment.
The main thing that can not be underestimated in any way is: firepower. Quad Hispanos DO make a difference. Especially in an arena not particularly crowded with überfirepower planes.Then add to this the very good maneuverability of the Hurricane. You can whirl around and bring your Hizookas to bear. And you don't need much of a burst to send any adversary down in flames. And of course, the Hurri IIC is a very stable gunplatform
And many planes do have an advantage on some areas, but experienced players do often overlook the fact that these advantages are not always being easily exploitable by the average player.
And now add another level: The combat environment. Numbers in EW are very lopsided most of the time. ENY of 10 means that you will quite often face a swarm of Hurricanes, some of them with ample altitude advantage. There's no more thing more ugly in EW than having a Hurricane with E advantage above you waiting to pick you off.
I was very sceptical when i heard that the Hurricane's dominance is just because of not having a sufficient variety of fighters. I expected the I-16 and Brewster wouldn't change much.
It seems I was right :(
(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7279/ew115cont.jpg)
And the only reason the A6M is getting numbers that high it's because it's the most capable CV fighter. It's very rarely seen in battles without any CV.
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BnZs,
You're problem is that you are too much ion love with theory and much, much too dismissive of actual data when it doesn't match your theory. Because of that you cannot understand why or how the Hurricane Mk IIc is dominating and the Spitfire Mk XVI is not and you refuse to accept reality.
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but....but..... double superior.... :lol
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Hmmmmmm... Let me defend something unpopular:
Karnak, your objection would be stronger if you gave a better interpretation of BnZs position, which is that performance data should determine what is perked, and not much else. Ultimately, he believes that if the player base cannot make use of, e.g., the 109F-4's superiority over the Hurri IIC and you end up with numbers like you see in EW, that's the fault of the players and not the aircraft.
I think you could motivate an objection based on the principle that results matter more than performance data, and then we'd have an actual debate.
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Just for the record... my own issue with the Hurri II in EW is just ENY, not a potential perk status.
And for ENY I just look at the impact on gameplay
And 35% of all kills AND a K/D of 2.0 are telling enough. Keep in mind that players are fluctuating inEW, but the HurriIIC had always numbers like these, since the arenas were split.
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It is a lovely little plane. You can't catch anything and everyone catches you. It is hard to catch anyone even with diving from altitude.
It takes special thinking to fly it, even weird mindset to actually enjoy it. It's a challenge and a truly sweet challenge. :)
And when you succeed with it, so sweet it tastes...
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Hmmmmmm... Let me defend something unpopular:
Karnak, your objection would be stronger if you gave a better interpretation of BnZs position, which is that performance data should determine what is perked, and not much else. Ultimately, he believes that if the player base cannot make use of, e.g., the 109F-4's superiority over the Hurri IIC and you end up with numbers like you see in EW, that's the fault of the players and not the aircraft.
I think you could motivate an objection based on the principle that results matter more than performance data, and then we'd have an actual debate.
Right, he is focused on theory and actual results don't matter much to him. I think theory is fun, but ultimately actual effect has to take priority.
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Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.
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Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.
Post the data that supports that claim. The data I have seen does not support it, it supports the idea that a small number of skilled players use it whereas the P-38L is used by a much larger number of players, most of them significantly less skilled.
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It sounds like he's (ironically) pointing out that stats, AKA data, aren't the best single perk metric as BNZ seems to argue.
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To bring this thread back on topic -
I do like the B-239 very much, It's a fun ride to fly, even when it's requiring a flying style completely opposing my usual "hit-and-run" tactics. I can't get away, but I can make them really having work for getting a kill on me. I like it much more than the FM-2, a plane I could never get used to.
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Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.
The numbers of the P-38J (especially in MidWar) are skewed by a relatively small number players that fly the P-38J almost exclusively. Any actual performance difference between the two is very slight (other than the L having better roll rate at higher speeds and dive flaps) that any fight lost in a P-38J vs P-38L matchup isn't due to any performance disparity between both planes but rather on pilot skill.
ack-ack
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It sounds like he's (ironically) pointing out that stats, AKA data, aren't the best single perk metric as BNZ seems to argue.
If he was making fun of k/d stats being a guide for eny/perks, then quite the opposite.
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I finally got a few kills in it, "tho a 5" gun prevented me from landing them".
The ROF of the 4 0.50s feels a little different. I like it tho. 4 0.50s is a decent package and i dont know why some call it weak.
Its a real pleasure at slow speeds. Seems responsive, actually it feels very agile and responsive thru all its speed range.
Good views. Seems to accelerate decently. When you can enter a fight with equal, or close to equal, "E" states, like against CV planes, the 239 feels like it can fight with anything.
its going to have a fine AH career I believe. I'd love to fly it in Historical recreations. :salute
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Good views. Seems to accelerate decently. When you can enter a fight with equal, or close to equal, "E" states, like against CV planes, the 239 feels like it can fight with anything.
It can fight anything silly enough to slow down to engage it, and win without much sweat. I've said this a hundred times: Fight it like you would fight a Zero, except it is more durable and its guns will kill you at 800 yards.
Only the A6M2 has an edge on it, and it isn't enough of an edge to make much of a difference in the MAs.
I love the damn thing....
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm surprised it killed so many ponies just because of the sheer speed difference. I'd be surprised if it knocks out as many next tour. Pony pilots have probably figured out it can turn extremely well and tread with caution.
I thought it was overmodeled aswell when I first encountered it, because of stories I had read about Tomahawk IIBs (P-40Bs) out-turning Brewsters in mock dogfights. Wmaker said it was a different variant that was heavier (didn't know). I was dumb for turning with it, Won't happen again :D
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Right, he is focused on theory and actual results don't matter much to him. I think theory is fun, but ultimately actual effect has to take priority.
My "actual results" from fighting against HurriIIc and from trying to fight against decent pilots while flying much slower aircraft with low thrust/weight are pretty convincing to me. The Hurri is dangerous but hardly insurmountable if you stay out its fight. The Zeke, Fritz, and SpitV all have a much better claim to being the uber un-perked fighters of the EW set than the Hurri.
Incidentally, I also wonder why the fast and decently armed but ridiculously bad-turning 190 A-5 is a perk plane. Rarity I suppose, but still the price seems rather high for what is the worst angles fighter in the set by a wide, wide margin. But I digress...
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Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.
:rofl
QFT!!!! Right on Bro!
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Hmmmmmm... Let me defend something unpopular:
Karnak, your objection would be stronger if you gave a better interpretation of BnZs position, which is that performance data should determine what is perked, and not much else. Ultimately, he believes that if the player base cannot make use of, e.g., the 109F-4's superiority over the Hurri IIC and you end up with numbers like you see in EW, that's the fault of the players and not the aircraft.
I think you could motivate an objection based on the principle that results matter more than performance data, and then we'd have an actual debate.
Anax, are you seriously telling me that most players in EW cannot figure out how to make use of the advantages of top speed and a rather massive engine power advantage? Because they seem to know how to use those advantages in LW.
Complaints about the Hurri's are in fact strikingly similar to Krusty's complaints about the Brewster's purported uberness...
EDIT: Bottom line, the ENY/Perk system should not be used to punish popularity. If players are choosing to fly a particular model from a selection of equally viable models for over 1/3rd of sorties, that does not unfairly effect the arena environment for someone chooses to fly something else, and getting huffy over it seems just slightly fascist.
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Brewsters:
I think I've been killed 1v1 by one ONCE in a "LW" uber ride since they came out, and that is because I blew multiple easy shots while E-fighting one in a P-38 and was mad enough to commit suicide by trying to fight on its terms instead of getting out of dodge. It is a good t'n'ber but rumors of UFO status are greatly exaggerated.
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I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC. The A6M2 and HurriI do not of course IIRC,but then again they can angles fight it on a more than equal footing! I do not understand what the problem is when virtually every plane in the set has an exploitable performance advantage over it. Last time I went up in the EW arena, a wingman and I took up 190 A5s, and engaged some Hurris coming into base in groups of 2-4. Now the 190 A5 is a *terrible* fighter with mediocre guns, but even against this absurdly un-maneuverable brick, the Hurris were not fast enough to force a fight on their terms, did not have the engine power to equal the E state enough to force a disengagement, and couldn't really do anything except dodge, try to HO, and accept that we would be able to make gun pass after guns pass on them in relative safety. Even with my lousy shooting, several Hurris went to the happy hunting ground. Of course if it catches you low and slow enough in a less maneuverable fighter that is probably all she wrote, but that is pretty much true anytime a significantly less maneuverable fighter is caught with its pants by a better turner.
it's largely due to the way our cartoon combat happens. it happens low, in thick air where the hurri can dominate. usually low enough that even with a more powerful aircraft, you're most likely not gonna accelerate away from him before he can pop a few rounds in ya.....and that's all the hurri needs, is a couple rounds.
back when i was flying it, i was amazed at the power of it's hispanos. all one needs to do, is to get the faster plane to turn fight for a bit......and a LOT will do that.
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Brewsters:
I think I've been killed 1v1 by one ONCE in a "LW" uber ride since they came out, and that is because I blew multiple easy shots while E-fighting one in a P-38 and was mad enough to commit suicide by trying to fight on its terms instead of getting out of dodge. It is a good t'n'ber but rumors of UFO status are greatly exaggerated.
I have a 11:1 K/D ratio to the Brewster... the 1 death was in a Bf 110C-4/b mixing it up.
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Anax, are you seriously telling me that most players in EW cannot figure out how to make use of the advantages of top speed and a rather massive engine power advantage? Because they seem to know how to use those advantages in LW.
I wouldn't say that most players know how to use an energy advantage to defeat better turning aircraft in any arena. So yeah, I'm serious.
Btw, you must adopt the line I suggest for you above, otherwise the K/D ratio of the Hurri IIC vs the 109F-4 leaves you dead in the water. ;)
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Yes, results matter more than stats. More, I would say that results reveal the shortcomings of stats by tracking all factors, not just the easy to put in number form factors.
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A few things to consider...
1. It's rarely the 190 that's the problem, but the gaggle of Spits/Hurris/(and now Brewsters) that follow (or, it's rarely the Brewster that's a problem, but the 190 that forces you to turn)
2. Some people in the EWA aren't exactly known for liking balanced competition... And this exacerbates #1.
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the brewster is my enemy
he can outturn me in any way and still has some verttical for when i run out of E
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the brewster is my enemy
he can outturn me in any way and still has some verttical for when i run out of E
That's because you're playing the Brewster's game by turning with it. Honestly, if you're in something other than an A6M2, DO NOT TURN with the Brewster, it will eat you up and crap you out for lunch. Use your plane's strengths to mitigate the Brewster's.
ack-ack
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I will say that if you've misjudged that Brewster's E state she can make life difficult for you. She really seems to hold on to E well, and can REALLY float around in the vertical.
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I wouldn't say that most players know how to use an energy advantage to defeat better turning aircraft in any arena. So yeah, I'm serious.
Btw, you must adopt the line I suggest for you above, otherwise the K/D ratio of the Hurri IIC vs the 109F-4 leaves you dead in the water. ;)
Okay, enlighten me, how does someone in a Hurri of *any* mark kill a Fritz who is not interested in being shot down, short of vulching one that gets caught low and slow? Last time I played that scenario was Dieppe FSO, I put lots of holes in many Hurris (terrible shot, alas), and landed, without ever having even come close to being shot down.
In my scenario of a wingpair Fw-190 vs. Hurris, a pack of 109Fs would have been FAR more dangerous in the Hurri's place, simply because they could match the e-building potential of the Fws and turn the tables far quicker if bounced.
Karnak: You keep speaking of results. But I've done both sides of the E vs. angles fighter with some very good pilots. Including Hurri vs. whatever. The fighter which is significantly inferior in both speed and thrust/weight doesn't stand much chance of shooting down an E fighter who doesn't do something stupid, and will likely be subjected to multiple guns passes until he is shot down, fuel/ammo forces the E fighter to disengage, or an interloper shows up. The HurriIIc simply isn't as dangerous an opponent to as many fighters as say the 109F is, or the Brewster for that matter, popularity with the amateurish who only understand "Turns good! Four cannons!" aside.
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Okay, enlighten me, how does someone in a Hurri of *any* mark kill a Fritz who is not interested in being shot down, short of vulching one that gets caught low and slow? Last time I played that scenario was Dieppe FSO, I put lots of holes in many Hurris (terrible shot, alas), and landed, without ever having even come close to being shot down.
Yeah, but that's you. Some of us can kill Hurris with the 109F-4 and take on negligible risk while doing so. For most, they're risking a lot if they want to do more than sight-see. How does an La-7 lose to a P-51D on the deck when he starts on the pony's 6? Simple: he screws up.
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Last tour I was 5-2 against the Brew. Why was it able to kill me? I was probably flying one myself...
This tour me no fly turny slow things. Score: 9-0 Coincidence? I think not.
Too slow for me to have much fun in but struck me as having significantly better roll than the FM2 which was nice.
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Karnak: You keep speaking of results. But I've done both sides of the E vs. angles fighter with some very good pilots. Including Hurri vs. whatever. The fighter which is significantly inferior in both speed and thrust/weight doesn't stand much chance of shooting down an E fighter who doesn't do something stupid, and will likely be subjected to multiple guns passes until he is shot down, fuel/ammo forces the E fighter to disengage, or an interloper shows up. The HurriIIc simply isn't as dangerous an opponent to as many fighters as say the 109F is, or the Brewster for that matter, popularity with the amateurish who only understand "Turns good! Four cannons!" aside.
I am talking about total results, not individual results of statistical outliers.
Before my break I went about 3-1 in the Mossie, does that mean it is too good and should be perked or does its .6-1 overall ratio mean it isn't very good and should have a fairly high ENY value?
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I am talking about total results, not individual results of statistical outliers.
Before my break I went about 3-1 in the Mossie, does that mean it is too good and should be perked or does its .6-1 overall ratio mean it isn't very good and should have a fairly high ENY value?
Yes Karnak, but can anyone take the position that the Hurri IIC is better than the 109F-4 just because of the stats from early war? I'd hope not. Main arena results can be very misleading. Aircraft that are really poop can do quite well, and great aircraft sometimes never surpass main arena mediocrity in terms of 'results.'
If you want an objective comparison of aircraft strengths and weaknesses in combat, you have to have competent pilots flying them, and in the arenas that's a statistical outlier. ;)
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Effect on the MAs is what determines perking in theory and total results are the thing that matter in that regards, not the optimum capability of an aircraft.
When I look at things like K/D ratios I also look at overall usage as greater usage drives down K/D ratios because 1) the aircraft is flown by a greater cross section of skills rather than a few self selected experts and 2) increased usage increases the number of canabalistic kills where the aircraft kills its own type resulting in a 1-1 ratio for that fight.
In the case of the Hurri IIc, it maintains a 2-1 ratio in the EWA despite being, by far, the most popular fighter in the EWA.
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Statistics and results are skewed equally and neither mean anything. This has already been proven in this very thread.
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Effect on the MAs is what determines perking in theory and total results are the thing that matter in that regards, not the optimum capability of an aircraft.
From the ENY/Perk values that we have today, it's an inescapable conclusion that they are completely ad-hoc and wildly inconsistent. There might be 5 different competing and contradictory reasons for the ENY/Perk values we have today. All is for naught in this thread. :lol
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I am talking about total results, not individual results of statistical outliers.
Before my break I went about 3-1 in the Mossie, does that mean it is too good and should be perked or does its .6-1 overall ratio mean it isn't very good and should have a fairly high ENY value?
Shooting down a fighter which is vastly inferior in energy performance is not an "outlier", it is something that is done every day by merely competent, not elite pilots. And merely "picking" slower planes multi-bandit environment while avoiding getting shot down by virtue of speed is the dead-simplest and most common strategy there is, and it works. In LW, the Dora9 is at a disadvantage vs. the Spixteen in every way *except* top speed, yet the former consistently has a higher k/d ratio...
So there must be a cultural dynamic in the EW making the HurriIIc look better than it really is...I suspect it is really, really, really bad piloting, milk-running, hoarding, and probably quite a lot of shade-vulching to boot. Changing the ENY of the Hurricane to force the high numbers side out of their Hurris while leaving them free to fly 109Fs and SpitVs is absurd will do nothing to fix this "cultural" problem.
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BnZs,
That is your mistake. You constantly try to remove the aircraft from their environment and judge them that way. You cannot do that and get useful results. Reality trumps theory, everytime.
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The hurri IIc is the EW chog.
While I don't see a need to perk it, an eny adjustment is needed.
4 hizookas
2 500 lbers
turns well
the list goes on and on...
Yea adjustment is needed.
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BnZs,
That is your mistake. You constantly try to remove the aircraft from their environment and judge them that way. You cannot do that and get useful results. Reality trumps theory, everytime.
Karnak:
The environment the HurriIIc operates in does *not* involve a2a combat? Superior E-fighters cannot have success, sometimes overwhelming success, against lower-performing adversaries? Are we playing the same game?
The purpose of the ENY system is to handicap the high numbers side, correct?
To lower the ENY of a plane relative another claim IS more or less asserting that it is a *better* plane in the arena environment than the other planes, that taking it away from the high numbers side will help level the playing field. There is no way to spin this: You MUST be asserting that the HurriIIc is a *better* airplane than a SpitV, 109F, Zero, Brewster, or other choices in the EW arena. Otherwise, one would be going purely by popularity, and I don't feel like forcing variety as an end unto itself is a good use of the ENY/Perk system. Like I've said before, ENY/Perks on popularity alone smacks of Fascism.
What I predict will happen if the ENY of the HurriIIc is lowered to 5 in the EW is that suddenly instead of a horde hanging over an out-numbered base picking in HurrIIcs, you'll have that same horde hanging there in SpitVs or Brewsters.
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BnZs,
The Hurri IIc operates in the EWA (for this discussion) and the results it posts speak for themselves. No matter how much better the Bf109F-4 or Spitfire Mk Vb are on paper, they produce drastically inferior results in the reality of Aces High's EWA.
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Are we playing the same game?
That's what I'm asking me myself quite often - does Bnz really play the same game? You alway seem to ignore what is really happening in an arena.
The 109F and SpiV are not that much superior in performance vs Hurri IIC, which has the massiv advantage of being easy to fly AND having a vastly superior weapon package.
From day 1 on, it has both a superior K/D as well as superior kill numbers It has a superior K/D despite being the horde & noobs plane of choice. 35% of all kills AND K/D 2.0. Eny is about impact on gameplay...
BTW.. when I'm alone and suddenly 3 cons appear above me in EW... I'd rather prefer to be in a Hurri IIC vs 3 BF 109F instead of being in a 109F vs 3 Hurri IIC. And I do consider myself to be a quite capable 109 pilot ;)
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It is funny how everything that I've read, and heard from other aviation buffs, that the Brewster was barely a force to be reckoned with in the air and the only thing that made it what it was were the highly trained pilots that flew them.
In AH, the 'lil Brewster seems to be far more capable that it ever was in the real deal. But... I dont have HT's flight model formula and no one else does either. So... dont challenge it.
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It is funny how everything that I've read, and heard from other aviation buffs, that the Brewster was barely a force to be reckoned with in the air and the only thing that made it what it was were the highly trained pilots that flew them.
In AH, the 'lil Brewster seems to be far more capable that it ever was in the real deal. But... I dont have HT's flight model formula and no one else does either. So... dont challenge it.
From what I've read, the relative performance of the Brewster vs. say the I16 is accurate, which means success against that plane is not a great surprise.
From what I've read, in the Pacific the Brewster was double-inferior to the Zero AND being flown by the inexperienced, which makes heavy losses unsurprising. Now the Brewster is obviously good enough to push a Zero pilot but the fact remains in AHII it is still a little below the Zeke in both turn and climb...again, sounds consistent with the record to me.
What you've got in the MAs right now is poor-turning LW fighters trying to cross swords with the Brewster in it's bailiwick instead of using the right tactics and being surprised when they fail. Once everyone successfully swallows the fact that the Brewster is in fact a very lightly wing-loaded fighter aircraft, rumors of UFO status will cease.
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That's what I'm asking me myself quite often - does Bnz really play the same game? You alway seem to ignore what is really happening in an arena.
My dear Lusche, if I go merely by what the masses choose to fly the most, then the 110G is superior to the 190 A5. :D
If you are willing to say that the HurricaneIIc is actually superior to the other EW fighters, fine then. Agree to disagree. According to my charts the 109F is ~60mph faster OTD and climbs ~1000fpm faster, but if to you that isn't a big a difference in performance...*shrug*
BTW.. when I'm alone and suddenly 3 cons appear above me in EW... I'd rather prefer to be in a Hurri IIC vs 3 BF 109F instead of being in a 109F vs 3 Hurri IIC. And I do consider myself to be a quite capable 109 pilot ;)
Three vaguely competent bandits with alt means your probably dead anything vs. anything, unless your plane gives you the ability to disengage. On the flip side, I daresay you and a wingman in 109Fs could bounce any number of HurrIIcs and basically use them as target practice until you were ready to disengage.
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My dear Lusche, if I go merely by what the masses choose to fly the most, then the 110G is superior to the 190 A5. :D
I would hope we can all agree that the 110 is generally flown for attack missions, and in that respect it is vastly superior to the 190. Regardless, for the average pilot in AH it is much easier for them to get kills in the 110 than in the 190. A plane that can turn well and has good firepower complements (or compensates for) the flying style of most people in AH, à la flat turns until the enemy enters crosshairs and fire wildly.
It's the same story with the hurri 2c and the 109 f.
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It is funny how everything that I've read, and heard from other aviation buffs, that the Brewster was barely a force to be reckoned with in the air and the only thing that made it what it was were the highly trained pilots that flew them.
The once stripped of the fat the navy crammed in it it was an arobatic aircraft.
Another notable US military fubar was the removal of the the turbo supercharger in the P-39.
It could have been one of the fastest aircraft in the US arsenal... shame really.
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A plane that can turn well and has good firepower complements (or compensates for) the flying style of most people in AH, à la flat turns until the enemy enters crosshairs and fire wildly.
It's the same story with the hurri 2c and the 109 f.
If *THIS* is the standard by which you think the planes should be "rated" by the perk/ENY system, then your thoughts on the game are VERY different from mine, and never the twain shall meet.
Though in other discussions you have been more willing to disregard turn and firepower and proclaim the importance of speed over all.
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Most definately, i see ENY as a tool to increase diversity in the arenas, and perks to prevent aircraft that otherwise unperked would dominate usage.
Though in other discussions you have been more willing to disregard turn and firepower and proclaim the importance of speed over all.
There is a difference between a plane's survivability and its ease to score a kill for the average AH pilot.
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If you are willing to say that the HurricaneIIc is actually superior to the other EW fighters, fine then. Agree to disagree. According to my charts the 109F is ~60mph faster OTD and climbs ~1000fpm faster, but if to you that isn't a big a difference in performance...*shrug*
Which means nothing if you do not start in a position to use that advantage. Hurri's seem to hold their E very well and dive well enough to negate (for short periods of time) the top speed advantage the F has if the Hurri comes in with a little bit of speed and altitude.
Not to mention the fact the Hizookas are both extremely accurate and very deadly. The IIC has a HUGE advantage when it comes to lethality, especially in low-percentage snapshots. You can successfully rope a Hurri, and he sprays a few rounds right at the end of it -- and your goose can still be cooked.
Three vaguely competent bandits with alt means your probably dead anything vs. anything, unless your plane gives you the ability to disengage. On the flip side, I daresay you and a wingman in 109Fs could bounce any number of HurrIIcs and basically use them as target practice until you were ready to disengage.
I didn't mention the face shot the first time, but I will here. :D It isn't for an insignificant reason people often refer to it as the "HOicane." Tough bird, too, so as the one of three, a IIC should take those face shots all day long -- he'd probably take at least two out by doing so, too.
So, if your idea of which plane is better is which one will be able to win an extended battle where both planes are flown to their limit, ending when one plane finally gets a killing shot behind the 3-9 line, I have no doubt the F would eventually win that fight. But that just isn't the majority of AH combat, like it or not.
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Pffft, if I start with a little altitude in the 109F, I don't care who is flying the Hurri II, I will avoid their feable HO attempts and shoot them down.
I thought this thread was about the Brewster. :P
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Which means nothing if you do not start in a position to use that advantage. Hurri's seem to hold their E very well and dive well enough to negate (for short periods of time) the top speed advantage the F has if the Hurri comes in with a little bit of speed and altitude.
Many slow planes can catch fast planes via diving. The F4F can do this to a Pony. This does not mean the F4F is considered superior to the Pony for general MA purposes. A Corsair can do this to a Tempest...I could go on.
So, if your idea of which plane is better is which one will be able to win an extended battle where both planes are flown to their limit, ending when one plane finally gets a killing shot behind the 3-9 line, I have no doubt the F would eventually win that fight. But that just isn't the majority of AH combat, like it or not.
I had implicitly assumed that was *everybody's* idea of the better plane...I've said it before, I'll say it again, do we *really* want how the planes "rate" defined by semi two-weekers?
Anax: You want Brewster talk? Okay, it is fairly clear that the Brewster owns the HurrIIc by every measure except firepower. ;)
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Anax: You want Brewster talk? Okay, it is fairly clear that the Brewster owns the HurrIIc by every measure except firepower. ;)
And.... It owns the Hurricane Mk.1 in every measure, including firepower... ;)
It's a mean little beastie.
My regards,
Widewing
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Whoever says the Hurricane dives well... we must be playing a different game! :P 109F-4 can dive from 150 to 400mph about 2.5 seconds faster than the Hurricane II.
I really need to test the Brewster and I-16 next.
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Exactly. About a week ago I ran into a Brewster in the MW arena and we both merged, the Brewster went into a flat turn to come swing around and I went vertical against it and got the kill. The player in the Brewster complained that I fought him in the vertical
:rofl
Anybody who whines about vertical fighting in a B-239 should be punched in the face. Of ALL the early-war birds, the B-239 is probably the only Allied plane that had a power-weight ratio worth a damn. Compare it to the F-4F, the P-40, the P-39... only the P-39 might match it, and that's only because the P-39 is the fastest of the early-war birds (faster then equivalent-year Bf-109s, if memory serves,) and thus it usually has a lot of energy to spend entering a fight, not because it's inherent power/weight is very good.
IL-2 models the F2A-2, which is pretty close to the B-239, (before the geniuses in the Navy bolted a thousand pounds of extra weight onto it,) and I regularly surprise Zero pilots who try to go vertical on me. I've only upped the B-239 a few times in Aces High, and I find it an interesting bird- it's slow, yes, but if you're in the LW arena that's not as big a problem because everyone has 50+ MPH on you anyways. The people calling it an FM-2 have a point- it's a slow, very manuverable bird that climbs rather better then the F4F. IMO the handling is lighter, though.
Nobody's tried to turn-fight me in it yet, though. Just that high-energy pass that I can't catch them in because it's so bloody slow; they're at 400 yards before I have a bead. So it breaks down into a series of head-on passes- I make sure to keep my nose on them, and they aren't eager to take me up in a head-on (wisely.) This happens a lot in ANY early war plane against canny energy fighters. The smart ones take it into the vertical to get good angles without taking return fire, and this is where the B-239 scored it's first kill for me- it can climb to put the nose on-target much better then anything else in the early-war lineup.