Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GlassJaw on August 22, 2009, 12:08:10 PM
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:furious
HTC,
When there is an imbalance of players from one arena to another from a specific country, how about not punishing the folks with balanced numbers with ENY.
I log in and one arena is at its cap, and am only given one arean choice (my squad is bish)
Here is the general situation:
Yellow Blue
Rooks 70 10
Bish 50 30
Nits 50 30
Bish and nits seeing high ENY in blue because too many rooks in Yellow. Bish and rooks have the right numbers in the right places but rooks not getting punished while bish and nits are. HTC your eny idea might work for a single arena setup but is broken with your multi arena method. And dont tell me to change countries because your squad based system does not make this possible. For the love of god, please fix your broken eny system.
Your disgruntled customer,
Glassjaw
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In English?
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A bag of walnuts.
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Sounds like he's wishing for ENY of the two LW arenas to be kept separate. Which as far as I know, it already is.
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His edit made his post understandable. He's actually asking that ENY not me separate for the two lwa's.
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Take your squad to the other arena and help balance it out.
Or...
Continue to fly with the lemmings and deal with the eny.
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The way it reads to me is that he assumes ENY is common between the two arenas:
Here is the general situation:
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Bish and nits seeing high ENY in blue because too many rooks in Yellow.
Which as far as I know, isn't how it is.
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We have a "yellow" arena now?
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:furious
HTC,
When there is an imbalance of players from one arena to another from a specific country, how about not punishing the folks with balanced numbers with ENY.
I log in and one arena is at its cap, and am only given one arean choice (my squad is bish)
Here is the general situation:
Yellow Blue
Rooks 70 10
Bish 50 30
Nits 50 30
Bish and nits seeing high ENY in blue because too many rooks in Yellow. Bish and rooks have the right numbers in the right places but rooks not getting punished while bish and nits are. HTC your eny idea might work for a single arena setup but is broken with your multi arena method. And dont tell me to change countries because your squad based system does not make this possible. For the love of god, please fix your broken eny system.
Your disgruntled customer,
Glassjaw
i'm confused?
you're only given one arena choice? so you're saying all of the other arenas except for the one you're in are at their cap?
that's amazing, as i've never seen the mw, ew, ava, sea, da, ta at cap......... :noid
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that's amazing, as i've never seen the mw, ew, ava, sea, da, ta at cap......... :noid
Same here...but then most of the time the ew has only 7 and the mw has only 34...what's keeping people from using them? Not enough runstang choices?
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:furious
HTC,
When there is an imbalance of players from one arena to another from a specific country, how about not punishing the folks with balanced numbers with ENY.
I log in and one arena is at its cap, and am only given one arean choice (my squad is bish)
Here is the general situation:
Yellow Blue
Rooks 70 10
Bish 50 30
Nits 50 30
Bish and nits seeing high ENY in blue because too many rooks in Yellow. Bish and rooks have the right numbers in the right places but rooks not getting punished while bish and nits are. HTC your eny idea might work for a single arena setup but is broken with your multi arena method. And dont tell me to change countries because your squad based system does not make this possible. For the love of god, please fix your broken eny system.
Your disgruntled customer,
Glassjaw
You clearly don't understand how the ENY works. Not to sound mean but I really think you should take some time to understand how ENY works before making a post like this that only results in you looking rather silly. ENY is seperate for each arena and do not affect each other. Another thing that I would like to point out where you are again incorrect is your assertion that the squadron system does not allow for switching countries. Last time I checked, anyone is free to switch countries regardless of squadron affiliation or not. Now, just because you don't want to switch or your squadron forbids it is an entirely different matter and not the fault of the squadron system in the game, that blame rests squarely on your shoulders and no one elses.
ack-ack
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Same here...but then most of the time the ew has only 7 and the mw has only 34...what's keeping people from using them? Not enough runstang choices?
I DUNNO.
mw is (to me anyway) probably the most fun arena out of them all.
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Moot, and Ack-Ack, I'm saying the opposite… I understand that between the two main arenas, there is no ENY relationship between them and that this causes side in-balancing in the individual arenas despite balanced overall numbers. This causes unfair ENY values when one arena gets closed. It is actually counter productive when hitech tries to balance between arenas.
Let me try to explain... Hitech does temporarily close (arena is full) one arena to get the numbers up in the other. Lets say I was flying blue as bish or nit, I'm getting hit by ENY of about 25 but Hitech actually wants me in blue since he has closed yellow. Ideally, he actually wants more of all players in blue ie 40 of each team. Now even if yellow had been open, my going into yellow would have helped better balance yellow but hitech really wants me in blue because he is trying to bring the population up in blue to make it playable. But by ENYing the bish and nit in blue, he is only addressing the side issue and blue and is not taking into account the side balancing in yellow or the arena balancing he is trying to accomplish. Yellow in this case has 30 more rooks than he wants (20 more than the bish or nits) but due to the higher total population of yellow, rooks aren’t really getting hit by eny. So the problem in this example is that more rooks need to move to blue... not that more nit and bish need to move to yellow... all the while nits and bish are getting eny'd for being where they should be, rooks are not getting eny'd for being where they should not. See what I mean?
He is using two different processes to address balancing and they are conflicting with each other. The system could be made to work but ENY from one arena would need to talk to the other and as many have said, hitech needs to consider players squadmates before he locks them out of an arena when he is trying to balance two separate arenas.
Ack-Ack, we will have to agree to disagree about the squad system vs eny situation. Being in a squad means you fight with your squad mates and not against. It means you don’t go to another side and take back the base your squadmate just won because the other side has lower numbers. I’ve flown with several squads and have not met one yet that would like it if I were flying against them while they were logged on.
To bronk: lemming eh? Are we calling names now? Kind of inflammatory for adult conversation don’t you think?
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Please see my thread Arena Cap Suggestion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272229.0.html) as it ties in directly to this thread.
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serious reply this time.
eny in the example you mentioned, isn't caused by htc though. it's caused by the lopsided number of players in that arena.
here's a question though....and bear in mind, i know nothing of how servers work......but could the arena caps have something to do with how much information that the particular server that houses that arena can transmit and recieve, without lag problems?
the squad i'm in now, doesn't like side switching...the one i used to be in, did it all the time.
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Moot, and Ack-Ack, I'm saying the opposite… I understand that between the two main arenas, there is no ENY relationship between them and that this causes side in-balancing in the individual arenas despite balanced overall numbers. This causes unfair ENY values when one arena gets closed. It is actually counter productive when hitech tries to balance between arenas.
Let me try to explain... Hitech does temporarily close (arena is full) one arena to get the numbers up in the other. Lets say I was flying blue as bish or nit, I'm getting hit by ENY of about 25 but Hitech actually wants me in blue since he has closed yellow. Ideally, he actually wants more of all players in blue ie 40 of each team. Now even if yellow had been open, my going into yellow would have helped better balance yellow but hitech really wants me in blue because he is trying to bring the population up in blue to make it playable. But by ENYing the bish and nit in blue, he is only addressing the side issue and blue and is not taking into account the side balancing in yellow or the arena balancing he is trying to accomplish. Yellow in this case has 30 more rooks than he wants (20 more than the bish or nits) but due to the higher total population of yellow, rooks aren’t really getting hit by eny. So the problem in this example is that more rooks need to move to blue... not that more nit and bish need to move to yellow... all the while nits and bish are getting eny'd for being where they should be, rooks are not getting eny'd for being where they should not. See what I mean?
He is using two different processes to address balancing and they are conflicting with each other. The system could be made to work but ENY from one arena would need to talk to the other and as many have said, hitech needs to consider players squadmates before he locks them out of an arena when he is trying to balance two separate arenas.
Ack-Ack, we will have to agree to disagree about the squad system vs eny situation. Being in a squad means you fight with your squad mates and not against. It means you don’t go to another side and take back the base your squadmate just won because the other side has lower numbers. I’ve flown with several squads and have not met one yet that would like it if I were flying against them while they were logged on.
To bronk: lemming eh? Are we calling names now? Kind of inflammatory for adult conversation don’t you think?
1. NO HT doesn't want you to jump arenas. ENY is the carrot/stick to jump countries and even out number in said arena.
2. If you and your squad were so close nit. I'd think your whole squad would jump sides with out a problem. If your object is base taking can't you do that on any side? Or... is it the fantabulous 25 perk WIN TEH WAR you all are after?
3. Just calling it as I see it. If you refuse to jump sides/go to another arena you might be looking to hide in a herd. IMO
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just out of curiousity......... what exactly do those letters stand for?
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I often see players say they don't want to switch sides, because they are loyal. Sometimes they even do some very strange real-world comparisons.
But if your not willing to endure the "downside" of being loyal (which actually isn't really one at all) - what's this loyalty really worth you are taking so much cartoon pride in?
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I often see players say they don't want to switch sides, because they are loyal. Sometimes they even do some very strange real-world comparisons.
But if your not willing to endure the "downside" of being loyal (which actually isn't really one at all) - what's this loyalty really worth you are taking so much cartoon pride in?
Great point. I'm loyal as long as it's in my favor. Then I want someone else to fix it :)
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Look bronk, I logged on this morning the the only main arena available had an eny of 25 with the numbers described in my original post. You think thats ok? Switching sides at a whim is not an option due to squad loyalties. If HT didnt want people in blue then why did he shut down orange? And I contine to take offence at being called a lemming and now apparently cattle. Grow up.
1. NO HT doesn't want you to jump arenas. ENY is the carrot/stick to jump countries and even out number in said arena.
2. If you and your squad were so close nit. I'd think your whole squad would jump sides with out a problem. If your object is base taking can't you do that on any side? Or... is it the fantabulous 25 perk WIN TEH WAR you all are after?
3. Just calling it as I see it. If you refuse to jump sides/go to another arena you might be looking to hide in a herd. IMO
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Look bronk, I logged on this morning the the only main arena available had an eny of 25 with the numbers described in my original post. You think thats ok? Switching sides at a whim is not an option due to squad loyalties. If HT didnt want people in blue then why did he shut down orange? And I contine to take offence at being called a lemming and now apparently cattle. Grow up.
See lusche's post above on loyalties. Take the good with the bad.
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Look bronk, I logged on this morning the the only main arena available had an eny of 25 with the numbers described in my original post. You think thats ok? Switching sides at a whim is not an option due to squad loyalties. If HT didnt want people in blue then why did he shut down orange? And I contine to take offence at being called a lemming and now apparently cattle. Grow up.
But the point of ENY is to level the playing field because the players will not. Good for you that you are loyal to your squad. I'm sorry your squad is so set in their chess piece loyalty they won't switch. It's because of that percieved loyalty to a chess piece and that unwillingness to move, that ENY is there.
Side switching is an option. You choose not to use it with ENY being the price you've chosen to pay.
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Please dont take this personal, because its not meant that way...
Isn't ENY just as much your squads falt as anyone else.... Some one has to switch to even it out thats a given..
Your squads mentality is the reason eny is so high in the first place...
<S>
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Being affected by ENY in any arena is the result of your decisions. That's really all there is to it. Call it loyalty to a squad, chess piece, whatever. But side switching is not "impossible" anyone can do it at any time (within the time limit restrictions) the game mechanics are in place, just because you do not see it as an option is not controllable by HTC or anyone else. ENY is the price of admission for your "loyalty".
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ENY is the price of admission for your "loyalty".
Sig material. Thanks.
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I often see players say they don't want to switch sides, because they are loyal. Sometimes they even do some very strange real-world comparisons.
But isn't this game supposed to be realistic and historically accurate? Or is this game supposed to be a cartoon?
If squads switched sides in WWII for real, they would have been shot when they returned home.
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But isn't this game supposed to be realistic and historically accurate?
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Simple aswer: No.
This is no simulation of WW2.
This game simulates aircraft and GVs of WW2.
You could have noticed this the moment you saw 3 sides instead of 2, and rooks, bish & knights instead of Germany, USA and United Kingdom ;)
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"If squads switched sides in WWII for real, they would have been shot when they returned home."
I'm curious why you would figure this is true in AH?
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To bronk: lemming eh? Are we calling names now? Kind of inflammatory for adult conversation don’t you think?
GlassJaw, you just have to excuse Bronk, he just doing his normal trolling. :D
Fred
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GlassJaw, you just have to excuse Bronk, he just doing his normal trolling. :D
Fred
Ohh look, here is a lemming now. ;)
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Ohh look, here is a lemming now. ;)
I hear that song again Bronk; "A Trolling I will go, A Trolling I will go, Hi Ho A Cheer e O, a Trolling I will go". :D
Fred
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1. NO HT doesn't want you to jump arenas. ENY is the carrot/stick to jump countries and even out number in said arena.
Might not want that, but thats what happens!
Caps do what they are supposed to do (try and balance overall numbers between arenas), ENY has been a failure in as far as encouraging people to change countries within an arena.
What it does do is get people to hop arenas thus skewing the numbers in both of them.
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I hear that song again Bronk; "A Trolling I will go, A Trolling I will go, Hi Ho A Cheer e O, a Trolling I will go". :D
Fred
You should see a doctor about that. Helped me with the voices. :noid Possibly could help you. :D
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Might not want that, but thats what happens!
Caps do what they are supposed to do (try and balance overall numbers between arenas), ENY has been a failure in as far as encouraging people to change countries within an arena.
What it does do is get people to hop arenas thus skewing the numbers in both of them.
I kind of agree with you. Trying to get people to not to take the path of least resistance is a hard task.
IMHO ht need to figure a bigger carrot and not a bigger stick to get people to change sides.
Keep eny in place but figure a bigger bonus for people who make an effort to jump sides.
Like free perk rides for your first 2 sorties or some such.
Edit : Kev PM in inbox.
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All i know is that lately every time i log on the bishwits and the knittens dint have enough support and we likewise get an eny so high ya cant even lift a b-17 and they firesale 262's to the otherside! looks like it is working for YOU!, i wouldn't complain! :cry
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All i know is that lately every time i log on the bishwits and the knittens dint have enough support and we likewise get an eny so high ya cant even lift a b-17 and they firesale 262's to the otherside! looks like it is working for YOU!, i wouldn't complain! :cry
Expand your horizons try another side and even the numbers. You don't have to go against your preferred country you know?
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I kind of agree with you. Trying to get people to not to take the path of least resistance is a hard task.
IMHO ht need to figure a bigger carrot and not a bigger stick to get people to change sides.
Keep eny in place but figure a bigger bonus for people who make an effort to jump sides.
Like free perk rides for your first 2 sorties or some such.
I don't look at ENY as a carrot to switch sides, I look at it as the price I have to pay to have the extra hands on deck to win the war. Sure it makes it a bit harder with inferior equipment, but that's what a game is suppose to be about.... a challenge to win ! If it's easy, why play?
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I kind of agree with you. Trying to get people to not to take the path of least resistance is a hard task.
IMHO ht need to figure a bigger carrot and not a bigger stick to get people to change sides.
Keep eny in place but figure a bigger bonus for people who make an effort to jump sides.
Like free perk rides for your first 2 sorties or some such.
Don't think there is a fix for it.
People are people, human nature is human nature.
Majority seem to prefer to fly with their squad.
You also have to assume that the overall country numbers in the player base are roughly equal, and are spread out the geographical regions fairly equal, which I don't think they are.
For example prior to the arena split you could watch through the day and tell which country had the numbers in certain geographic regions. Used to be Knits had numbers in the early mornings (Europe), then during the day Bish would catch up and overtake them (US) then late evening it was usually the Rooks.
Try balancing that between 3 countries in two different arenas and I think you're on a hiding to nothing.
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I don't look at ENY as a carrot to switch sides, I look at it as the price I have to pay to have the extra hands on deck to win the war. Sure it makes it a bit harder with inferior equipment, but that's what a game is suppose to be about.... a challenge to win ! If it's easy, why play?
Fugi that would be the sick part. :D
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Majority seem to prefer to fly with their squad.
I agree. However I fail to understand why as a group the squad could not change sides. Like I said some bigger bonus instead of a bigger stick . Possibly that would be more effective.
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I agree. However I fail to understand why as a group the squad could not change sides. Like I said some bigger bonus instead of a bigger stick . Possibly that would be more effective.
Part of it -
Each country has its own character and feel.
Used to be -
Rooks - Most furballers
Bish - Fairly organised
Knits - A mess
So squads tend to go to the country they feel comfortable in, and I think it has become entrenched.
Maybe first thing to try -
Disband the 3 countries and re-assign (on first login) squads / loners to new 'countries'.
See if that helps to mix things up a little.
Got a 66% percent chance it would end up the same or better than now, a 33% chance it would end up worse.
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aybe first thing to try -
Disband the 3 countries and re-assign (on first login) squads / loners to new 'countries'.
See if that helps to mix things up a little.
You would have to take down the BBS first ;)
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Part of it -
Each country has its own character and feel.
Used to be -
Rooks - Most furballers
Bish - Fairly organised
Knits - A mess
I tend to disagree with that comment kev. All countries are the same. If there is a tendency for a country to have a "character" I would say it is due to a large squad in that country or perhaps a single person that folk tend to follow.
I'm sure looking at the folk in a country would reveal this to be true, and it would be the reason for countries changing their characters.
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I've said it before; If you need to balance between different countries, get rid of the country names. When the game logs the first player from a squad into the game for the day, he goes to the side with the lowest numbers. With a few tweeks, this could work for side balancing within an arena but when you throw a 2nd arena into the mix...
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You don't have to switch sides or country to escape the effects of ENY.
Simply change your tastes in aircraft. Choose 20 and up ENY aircraft then you won't even know when ENY gets crazy unless someone complains on country or it gets so bad that no one can fly and then things are so unbalanced that it really wouldn't be much fun to fly anyway.
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I've said it before; If you need to balance between different countries, get rid of the country names. When the game logs the first player from a squad into the game for the day, he goes to the side with the lowest numbers. With a few tweeks, this could work for side balancing within an arena but when you throw a 2nd arena into the mix...
The problem I see with that idea is that it removes player choice from the scenario. One it's assigning a player to a particular side that for one reason or another they may not want to play for. The key as I see it is choice, the player must have a choice in how they play the game. What I think some people (speaking in general here, not directed at any one person is particular) have difficulty separating the choice they made with the consequences of that decision. I think the more vocal complaints are from people who don't realize that they made the choice, or that there was even one to be made, but they did. ENY restrictions are designed to give incentive to the player, but it is still up to them to decide to follow the carrot being dangled and switch sides.
There is always that choice. There is no external force that is making anyone play the game in any particular way, one of the more common reasons for not switching is squad loyalty. The player in question still had the choice to join the squad, being forced to deal with ENY on occasion is just one of the consequences of that decision.
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wow
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I've said it before; If you need to balance between different countries, get rid of the country names.
You could call it country 1/2/3 or country A/B/C and you'd still find weirdos clinging to some 'virtual patriotism' that makes absolutely no sense.
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You could call it country 1/2/3 or country A/B/C and you'd still find weirdos clinging to some 'virtual patriotism' that makes absolutely no sense.
Well you have a part of the facts correct, I think it goes this way, you have your friends in one of the three countries that you would normally want to fly with, as one of the factors, the other is everbody loves to have a common enemy (if youy don't think so look at what people think of the IRS), so the two other counties you are flying against have people you perfer to do battle against almost as much as you like flying with your country mates, this is what I think the most influencing factors of people wanting and staying with one country.
This is just my take on the subject.
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I've said it before; If you need to balance between different countries, get rid of the country names. When the game logs the first player from a squad into the game for the day, he goes to the side with the lowest numbers. With a few tweeks, this could work for side balancing within an arena but when you throw a 2nd arena into the mix...
That will never be implemented ... and the reason is that you can actually make that same decision yourself (collectively as a squad) right now seeing that you post implies that your squad is not "country" loyal.
If you and your squaddies are flying Rooks and the ENY goes thru the roof you all decide then to move to Knights or Bishops (lowest numbered country). There is no need for "automatic" side switching at login. Do you need the "game logic" to make the decision for you ? ... to switch to the lower numbered countries.
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No, I personally do not have loyalty to the virtual chess piece thing. If I were not in a squad, I would probably change countries to which ever one offered the best fight for me... usually that would be the low numbers side (more bad guys to kill) but this is not feasible with the squad system and the squad system/the guys I fly with are core to why I play the game. If you want to fly with people, you join their squad and you can fly with them with this idea. You also get the oportunity to fly with other great folks that you would otherwise not have had the chance to meet. Many people do have loyalty to the chess piece though and are stuck in their ways and wont move to fix the problem, yet other people don't have this issue and like to hoard so they change sides to join the hoard thus compounding the problem. The current ENY system allows this. Face it folks, the current eny system is flawed and is more effective at causing customers to become frustrated with there aces high experiance than it is effective at balancing sides. I'm looking for a balancing system that causes me not to log off like eny more often than not does. There are lots of smart people here... I just cant bring myself to beleive that the current system is the best we can come up with.
Anyway, this idea fixes the problem before it becomes a problem. Eny would never have a chance to go up because people would be directed away from where their numbers are not needed.
That will never be implemented ... and the reason is that you can actually make that same decision yourself (collectively as a squad) right now seeing that you post implies that your squad is not "country" loyal.
If you and your squaddies are flying Rooks and the ENY goes thru the roof you all decide then to move to Knights or Bishops (lowest numbered country). There is no need for "automatic" side switching at login. Do you need the "game logic" to make the decision for you ? ... to switch to the lower numbered countries.
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this is not feasible with the squad system
Sure it is. You've just got to convince your "country loyal" bumpkin/squadies to quit being such
a timid bunch and spread their wings. It's not rocket science. All the squad functions work just fine.
The whole, "I would switch but for my squad", motif I just don't get. :rolleyes:
Your squad would rather log off in disgust over eny, than switch countries for a spell?
Do they know you can switch back in as little as an hour?
What's not feasible?
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Anyway, this idea fixes the problem before it becomes a problem. Eny would never have a chance to go up because people would be directed away from where their numbers are not needed.
Talk about people leaving the game, if you take away choice for people then people would leave this game in droves. ME FIRST.
I really don't understand the ENY whine, I can always get in to which ever arena I choose, maybe have to wait a few minutes at times but rarely
because the ENY numbers change rapidly. Or switch to another arena and still play for the country of your choice. It is not a big deal.
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Well you have a part of the facts correct, I think it goes this way, you have your friends in one of the three countries that you would normally want to fly with, as one of the factors, the other is everbody loves to have a common enemy (if youy don't think so look at what people think of the IRS), so the two other counties you are flying against have people you perfer to do battle against almost as much as you like flying with your country mates, this is what I think the most influencing factors of people wanting and staying with one country.
This is just my take on the subject.
There are folks on all three sides that I like flying with. Folks who fly one side limit their AH experience. Those that are stuck in a one sided squad limit themselves too. We all make our own choices and have to live with them..... some just like to complain about their choice.
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No, I personally do not have loyalty to the virtual chess piece thing. If I were not in a squad, I would probably change countries to which ever one offered the best fight for me... usually that would be the low numbers side (more bad guys to kill) but this is not feasible with the squad system and the squad system/the guys I fly with are core to why I play the game. If you want to fly with people, you join their squad and you can fly with them with this idea. You also get the oportunity to fly with other great folks that you would otherwise not have had the chance to meet. Many people do have loyalty to the chess piece though and are stuck in their ways and wont move to fix the problem, yet other people don't have this issue and like to hoard so they change sides to join the hoard thus compounding the problem. The current ENY system allows this. Face it folks, the current eny system is flawed and is more effective at causing customers to become frustrated with there aces high experiance than it is effective at balancing sides. I'm looking for a balancing system that causes me not to log off like eny more often than not does. There are lots of smart people here... I just cant bring myself to beleive that the current system is the best we can come up with.
Anyway, this idea fixes the problem before it becomes a problem. Eny would never have a chance to go up because people would be directed away from where their numbers are not needed.
Your are contradicting yourself here ...
On one hand, you are saying that you personally are not chess-piece loyal ... but your squad is ... ok I got that.
On the other hand, you are suggesting that when the first person from your squad logs in and the system decides that the Rooks need numbers and your squad is loyal to the Knights ... that's gonna be OK with your squad ?
Would it be OK only because the system made the decision for you ? ... instead of you and your squaddies discussing on squad channel that the ENY is killin' your fun and that you all should probably switch to a lower number country so you can continue to have fun ?
Your idea would only work if people didn't really care what country they flew for ... which is not the case for a large amount of players ... and those are the ones that usually whine the loudest when ENY hits their beloved country.
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Well you have a part of the facts correct, I think it goes this way, you have your friends in one of the three countries that you would normally want to fly with, as one of the factors, the other is everbody loves to have a common enemy (if youy don't think so look at what people think of the IRS), so the two other counties you are flying against have people you perfer to do battle against almost as much as you like flying with your country mates, this is what I think the most influencing factors of people wanting and staying with one country.
This is just my take on the subject.
What did you do when you first played AH?
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But the point of ENY is to level the playing field because the players will not.
In theory, sure. But it flat-out does not work. Either side balancing is a serious problem, in which case HTC needs to find a means of addressing it that actually works, or it isn't, in which case there's no real need for ENY as it now exists.
One big reason it doesn't work is that there's nothing to prevent two sides from more or less ignoring each other and ganging up on the third. You would think that would usually be the two with fewer people on vs. the horde, but from what I've seen it doesn't work that way, it's more or less random. And this isn't a personal whine, it happens to each country as much as the others, and when it does it's a lot less fun for that country - flying crappy planes against heavy odds - without any corresponding increase in fun for the others.
Personally I'd object to ENY a lot less if, one, there was anything late war to fly off a CV with ENY > 15 or even remotely competitive at ENY > 25 (A6M2? It's got a freakin' lawn mower engine!), and two, the ENY ratings were not so ridiculously slanted toward German planes. I mean, really - does anyone seriously think a Spitfire I is equivalent to a 109G-6? (The Spit has a higher ENY but for the purpose under discussion anything > 29 is the same.)
I can see one legitimate benefit from ENY: getting people to try out planes they otherwise wouldn't take. But I think that could better be accomplished by making ENY have a significant impact on score. That would tend to get the people who really ought to be more flexible in plane choices - experienced and higher-ranking pilots - into the old buckets and leave the newbs, whose scores are going to be low anyway, less affected. But as it stands we have the insanity of the perk system giving the best planes to the people who need them the least.
As for side-hopping, what can I say, I like having a team. I've been a 'skins fan for 40 years and I ain't gonna to root for Dallas anytime in the next 40. That loyalty has no rational basis either but however irrational it's a large part of the fun. :rolleyes:
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I think the funniest thing is that this is a historically accurate (or pretty close to it) WWII Air and Ground Combat multiplayer online game, right??? Well, as far as I know, and I have a vast knowledge of everything WWII, is that there was no ENY in WWII. I think that the only perked rides should be the ME-262 and 163. I understand the whole some are better than others and yada yada yada, but it is a little ridiculous. :rock
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Obviously it works well. Otherwise folks who just will not change sides would not complain about it.
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I think the funniest thing is that this is a historically accurate (or pretty close to it) WWII Air and Ground Combat multiplayer online game, right??? Well, as far as I know, and I have a vast knowledge of everything WWII, is that there was no ENY in WWII. I think that the only perked rides should be the ME-262 and 163. I understand the whole some are better than others and yada yada yada, but it is a little ridiculous. :rock
This game doesn't simulate WWII. Or have you ever heard about the three countries Rook, Bishop & Knights fighting on any front?
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I think the funniest thing is that this is a historically accurate (or pretty close to it) WWII Air and Ground Combat multiplayer online game, right??? Well, as far as I know, and I have a vast knowledge of everything WWII, is that there was no ENY in WWII. I think that the only perked rides should be the ME-262 and 163. I understand the whole some are better than others and yada yada yada, but it is a little ridiculous. :rock
What Lusche said.
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I think the funniest thing is that this is a historically accurate (or pretty close to it) WWII Air and Ground Combat multiplayer online game, right??? Well, as far as I know, and I have a vast knowledge of everything WWII, is that there was no ENY in WWII. I think that the only perked rides should be the ME-262 and 163. I understand the whole some are better than others and yada yada yada, but it is a little ridiculous. :rock
Great.. the next time you are shot down, cancel your account. There were no do overs in WWII. :rock
:rolleyes:
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But the point of ENY is to level the playing field because the players will not. .
.....but NOT BY FORCING ANYONE TO SWITCH SIDES!
ENY hinders the team with the greater numbers by forcing them to do the same "job" with inferior equipment. A side benefit is the option to switch sides for those that MUST have their hotrods with also helps to even up the fight.
The idea here is that if sides are even you get a spit 16 vs a spit 16, but if one team has bigger number instead of getting 3 spit 16s vs 1 spit 16 you get 3 P40s vs 1 spit 16, which should still make a pretty even fight, unless the P40 drivers know that ride.
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Obviously it works well. Otherwise folks who just will not change sides would not complain about it.
So you're saying the object of ENY is just to annoy players?
If it worked well, people would switch sides. They are not, therefore it is not working well.
The idea here is that if sides are even you get a spit 16 vs a spit 16, but if one team has bigger number instead of getting 3 spit 16s vs 1 spit 16 you get 3 P40s vs 1 spit 16, which should still make a pretty even fight, unless the P40 drivers know that ride.
Except you're just as likely to get two Spit16s against one P-40, because the numbers advantage at any point in time has much more to do with the distribution of the various countries' pilots between their two fronts and between the two LW arenas than with how many people are actually online.
As it stands now, ENY just does not do what it is supposed to do.
I like the idea of arena caps being based on country. (Of course you'd have to exit the arena to switch sides.) That would do much more to address the situation where most of one country's players decide to leave one LW arena and pile on the other. It would end the situation where you have a 28 ENY in Blue but can't get into Orange to save your life even though your side is outnumbered 2-1 there.
ENY + arena caps as they stand = totally dysfunctional mechanism working at cross purposes with itself. It does nothing but annoy people.
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If ENY makes someone log off, ENY worked.
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So you're saying the object of ENY is just to annoy players?
No it's not.
As it stands now, ENY just does not do what it is supposed to do.
Yes, it does.
There is a big misconception what ENY is supposed to do, and what not. It's not supposed to even the numbers. Nobody ever expected all players happily switching around until all sides are even. In that regard ENY is just an incentive. Nothing more, nothing less.
ENY is a gameplay balancing tool. It's a handicap one side is getting when the numbers are getting uneven. That's all. And it works.
You can have one out of two: Huge numerical advantage OR "superior" planes. It's your choice. If you can't play without both... it's your problem.
Loyalty isn't easy all the time. In game as well as in real life.
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Loyalty's a piece of cake if you made the right choices.
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Just a question but do ppl get frustrated with eny because they can't up the 5 eny planes or because they gettin ganged by another team. I very rarely gripe about eny and usually only because i cant get my sherman and have to use a panzer. Plane wise dont matter we got what at least 40 rides to pick from if u only happy flying 1 learn a new ride.
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Just a question but do ppl get frustrated with eny because they can't up the 5 eny planes or because they gettin ganged by another team. I very rarely gripe about eny and usually only because i cant get my sherman and have to use a panzer. Plane wise dont matter we got what at least 40 rides to pick from if u only happy flying 1 learn a new ride.
There's a big difference between an ENY of 5 and an ENY of 28. How many people were still flying P-40Bs or Spit Is in combat in 1944, anyway?
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How many people were still flying P-40Bs or Spit Is in combat in 1944, anyway?
863
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There's a big difference between an ENY of 5 and an ENY of 28. How many people were still flying P-40Bs or Spit Is in combat in 1944, anyway?
ahh.. nice exaggeration again by mentioning ENY 40 planes, when much superior ENY 30 planes like 109F-4 & G-G & G-6, P38G or 190A-8 are still available.
Also again it's being ignored what is causing a ENY of 28, and how frequent it is...
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ahh.. nice exaggeration again by mentioning ENY 40 planes, when much superior ENY 30 planes like 109F-4 & G-G & G-6, P38G or 190A-8 are still available.
As opposed to saying all complaints about ENY are because people can't fly 5 ENY planes... which I've never heard anyone complain about.
I take that back - I've seen a number of people complaining that they couldn't take perked planes when ENY > 5, as if letting them take perked planes would somehow be fairer. We can't have anyone on the larger side flying Spit IXs or F4U-1s, but 262s and F4U-4s are fine and dandy?
(And I addressed the way ENY is slanted toward German planes and the 109 in particular elsethread. The notion that the Spit V or FM-2 is an unfair match against the 109G-6 seems a bit off to me.)
Also again it's being ignored what is causing a ENY of 28, and how frequent it is...
What causes an ENY of 28, then? I hope you aren't going to try to claim it's people logging on and choosing to switch to the country with the highest numbers so they can fly with a "horde".
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What causes an ENY of 28, then?
Huge numerical imbalance that's causing a gameplay issue. ENY is required to even the playing field.
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I've read a lot of this thread, but not all, so I appologies in advance if this was answered already.
I understand the point of ENY to help even things up. But I find that while arena's may be out of balance as a whole, that has very little to do with the local story at the bases where the fight's are going on. Knight are defending against an attack by 15 rooks. There are 5 or 6 of us trying to defend the base, and the ENY for Knights goes to 25. So I have my P-40 or P39-D up and I'm out numbered 3:1 against Spit 1, Ponies, and Typhoons. I guess it means somewhere the Knights must be winniing.
But I'm wondering about the dynamics of wanting the Knights to switch sides to even things out. The Arenas are big, and I find quite often the action gets concentrated in a few areas or bases. Everyone wants to be where the action is, or where plane density is high. If bases get taken and one team get's compressed into a smaller area, that would seems to shrink the "front" and create higher 'plane density' and up the action, and reduce the fly-times, search-times for bandits. Especially for the team who has lost the fields. With higher density for the losing (area) team, shouldn't the tide of the battle correct itself?
Of course I've only been at this for 4 months now, so what happened in the above scenario before ENY? Did the tide of battle NOT correct itself?
In short...what problems were ENY put in to correct, and is it working?
Thanks.
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So you're saying the object of ENY is just to annoy players?
If it worked well, people would switch sides. They are not, therefore it is not working well.
It only annoys those who do not wish to have even teams.
Many folks do switch sides..... so it works. If you don't switch... your part of the problem. :)
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Of course I've only been at this for 4 months now, so what happened in the above scenario before ENY? Did the tide of battle NOT correct itself?
Behavioral instincts took hold ... the 2 numerically superior teams pummeled the lower numbered country from both sides ... "racing" to see who could get the "reset" first ... very rarely did they fight each other because there was not carrot (reset) in it for them.
This behavior can still be seen today ... the ENY limiter does slow down the "race" and can sometimes stall the "race" until numbers maybe even out in the course of a night.
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Behavioral instincts took hold ... the 2 numerically superior teams pummeled the lower numbered country from both sides ... "racing" to see who could get the "reset" first ... very rarely did they fight each other because there was not carrot (reset) in it for them.
This behavior can still be seen today ... the ENY limiter does slow down the "race" and can sometimes stall the "race" until numbers maybe even out in the course of a night.
Thanks Slapshot...that answer makes a lot of sense.
I can see where the race to cap bases can bomb a country out even being able to produce airborn pilots, but maybe instead of limitting which planes can be taken, maybe ENY could harden the fields and towns of the losing teams to slow the field capping, but not interfere with the plane on plane action.
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Thanks Slapshot...that answer makes a lot of sense.
No problem ... that's what ENY makes sense.
I can vouch for the fact that getting pummeled from both fronts and trying to fend off an endless supply of ENY 5 planes was as bad as it gets as far as gameplay is concerned IMHO.
Those that are suffering at the hands of ENY never really look at the other side of the coin. This game is about challenge (internal and external), comraderie, and most of all ... FUN ... getting consistently ganged by superior numbers in superior planes is NEVER FUN.
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ugh ... double post
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Modified my last post with this but decided to repost it.
I can see where the race to cap bases can bomb a country out even being able to produce airborn pilots, but maybe instead of limitting which planes can be taken, maybe ENY could harden the fields and towns of the losing teams to slow the field capping, but not interfere with the plane on plane action.
I just understand the frustration of not being able to take the plane you like. Wondering if there is a better way. Funny I fly crap planes mostly anyway as I spend 90% fo my flight time in a P-39 but I simpathize with players not wanting to choose between their country and their favorite plane.
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Behavioral instincts took hold ... the 2 numerically superior teams pummeled the lower numbered country from both sides ... "racing" to see who could get the "reset" first ... very rarely did they fight each other because there was not carrot (reset) in it for them.
This behavior can still be seen today ... the ENY limiter does slow down the "race" and can sometimes stall the "race" until numbers maybe even out in the course of a night.
What race? Neither country can win the reset just by taking bases from the third.
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Modified my last post with this but decided to repost it.
I can see where the race to cap bases can bomb a country out even being able to produce airborn pilots, but maybe instead of limitting which planes can be taken, maybe ENY could harden the fields and towns of the losing teams to slow the field capping, but not interfere with the plane on plane action.
I just understand the frustration of not being able to take the plane you like. Wondering if there is a better way. Funny I fly crap planes mostly anyway as I spend 90% fo my flight time in a P-39 but I simpathize with players not wanting to choose between their country and their favorite plane.
Artificially hardening fields is not a direction that I would like to see.
The mainstay of this game is people vs people ... ENY allows this human conflict to continue and levels the playing field while making the defending of a field or a country still lie with the responsibility of it's participants.
5 Spit16s ... vs ... 5 Spit16s / 5 P-51s ... or ... 5 Spit16s ... vs ... 5 P-40s / 5 P-38Gs ...
Which scenario would be more fun for you if you are on the side with 5 ?
Which scenario would you most likely feel that you had a chance with if you were on the side with 5 ?
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I can see where the race to cap bases can bomb a country out even being able to produce airborn pilots, but maybe instead of limitting which planes can be taken, maybe ENY could harden the fields and towns of the losing teams to slow the field capping, but not interfere with the plane on plane action.
This would affect only a part of the players: The "basegrabbers". Capturing is only one way to produce what this game is all about: Ccombat.
ENY is meant to interefere with plane to plane actions. When it's 1 vs 4, the single player doesn't care much about field harndess if it's 4 Spit 16's he has to fight.
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What race? Neither country can win the reset just by taking bases from the third.
Now I know you weren't around before ENY.
There still can be a "race" situation since the introduction of the 33% rule.
Example :
If the Knights have a superior numerical advantage and own 38% of the Rooks fields and only own 28% of the Bish fields ... they will "race" to try and pummel the Bish to get the 33% before the Rooks can try and get back some of their fields to get under the 33%.
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Now I know you weren't around before ENY.
There still can be a "race" situation since the introduction of the 33% rule.
Example :
If the Knights have a superior numerical advantage and own 38% of the Rooks fields and only own 28% of the Bish fields ... they will "race" to try and pummel the Bish to get the 33% before the Rooks can try and get back some of their fields to get under the 33%.
ENY had never anything to do with the reset race and had no real influnce on it. It's just a numerical balancer, and was no incentive to attack the other country competing for reset.
Only the "new" war winning rules did change that.
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ENY is meant to interefere with plane to plane actions. When it's 1 vs 4, the single player doesn't care much about field harndess if it's 4 Spit 16's he has to fight.
OK, But this is based on the premise that all fights in all parts of the arena have a distribution equal to the arena totals. I think the biggest griping is when local ballance is very different from the arena balance and the losing team gets Double-Screwed. Not sure how to fix that, but is it possible that ENY creates as many of these situations as it fixes?
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ENY had never anything to do with the reset race and had no real influnce on it. It's just a numerical balancer, and was no incentive to attack the other country competing for reset.
Only the "new" war winning rules did change that.
Well .. in my experiences and from what I could see ... the introduction of ENY did slow the "race" to some degree ... I did not say that that was it's intent, it was more a byproduct ... the "steamroller" (as it was knownm) had some steam taken out of it when it was forced to fly inferior planes.
Yes, the new 33% rule did eliminate the 2 country race to the reset.
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What race? Neither country can win the reset just by taking bases from the third.
This has also changed, under the old system the arena was reset when one country was eliminated. The "winner" was whomever had the most fields of the two remaining countries.
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OK, But this is based on the premise that all fights in all parts of the arena have a distribution equal to the arena totals.
Currently, that is the only way to implement it. Some have suggested "local area" ENY, which would work better, but would be very complex to implement and what would stop someone who is ENY limited at one field to the east of an enemy field, but his field to the west of the enemy field is not ENY limited ... he and many other could still take the 5 ENY rides and pummel the same field.
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I just understand the frustration of not being able to take the plane you like.
I have never been able to grasp this. There are so many planes in the game, I've always thought it odd that so many people want to limit themselves to one (or a small handful) of aircraft types.
- oldman
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I've always been able to fly my fav :)
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I've read a lot of this thread, but not all, so I appologies in advance if this was answered already.
I understand the point of ENY to help even things up. But I find that while arena's may be out of balance as a whole, that has very little to do with the local story at the bases where the fight's are going on. Knight are defending against an attack by 15 rooks. There are 5 or 6 of us trying to defend the base, and the ENY for Knights goes to 25. So I have my P-40 or P39-D up and I'm out numbered 3:1 against Spit 1, Ponies, and Typhoons. I guess it means somewhere the Knights must be winniing.
But I'm wondering about the dynamics of wanting the Knights to switch sides to even things out. The Arenas are big, and I find quite often the action gets concentrated in a few areas or bases. Everyone wants to be where the action is, or where plane density is high. If bases get taken and one team get's compressed into a smaller area, that would seems to shrink the "front" and create higher 'plane density' and up the action, and reduce the fly-times, search-times for bandits. Especially for the team who has lost the fields. With higher density for the losing (area) team, shouldn't the tide of the battle correct itself?
Of course I've only been at this for 4 months now, so what happened in the above scenario before ENY? Did the tide of battle NOT correct itself?
In short...what problems were ENY put in to correct, and is it working?
Thanks.
Front-local ENY would prolly be an improvement, but is it feasible to code?
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Currently, that is the only way to implement it. Some have suggested "local area" ENY, which would work better, but would be very complex to implement and what would stop someone who is ENY limited at one field to the east of an enemy field, but his field to the west of the enemy field is not ENY limited ... he and many other could still take the 5 ENY rides and pummel the same field.
The game calculates enemy/friendly per sector already as illustrated by the 'DAR-Bars'. Maybe the ENY could be mapped to fields in a sector based on the DAR ratio?...and one field radius? Overlapping ENY decrapencied could be averaged. I think the idea of ENY is valid, but it's one size fits all implementation might be creating as many problems as it solves. Something like this might improve it.
Perhaps the HTC team could comment on how difficult it is to implement, or whether it's even an idea worth trying.