Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Getback on September 01, 2009, 12:27:53 PM
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Wow, what a plane! I was watching some countrymen engage one the other day, even filmed it. When reviewing the film I saw it dive from 14k to 9k and then pull back up to 16k. My poor ole F4U-1A just couldn't keep pace. I thought what is up with this. In fact, reviewing the film the plane actually accelerated while climbing at one point. Nothing super major, maybe 2 to 3 mph. My plane decelerates the instant I pull up. I thought to myself this is nonsense. So I went to the TA and tested one with a full tank of gas. I dove down from 14k to 9k and in fact climbed to 17k and probably could have made it to 18k. It was still climbing at about 90 to 100mph. I'm surprised I don't see 5 of these for every other plane up. I then tested it in a dive. No problem there either. Dove great! When you see them on the deck you just know they are going to go vertical but you cannot even come close to bringing your gun sights on them unless you catch them at the apex of their climb, at least not in an f4. What really gets me though, is that they are usually the last one left in a furball and when you shoot them down, the arrogant xxx call you carp or much much worse, thinking they are just superior pilots. No not in this case, it really is the plane.
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If your in a 1a he is using his strength against your weakness.
If you were in a 4D he might try something else.
I fly a bomber and have little trouble with them.
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The K4 is a real pain in the butt to fly, IMO, but if I had to fight 2v1 for the rest of my life, I'd probably take it.
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If your in a 1a he is using his strength against your weakness.
If you were in a 4D he might try something else.
I fly a bomber and have little trouble with them.
I understand that, using your planes strength against the other guys plane weakness, why I don't turn fight a spit in a P47d40. Although I know some folks who can give a great fight to a spit using a p47. The k4 does have some weakness, low amount of ammo and It's not as fast as many planes. For buffs in mho, you need a fast plane.
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The k4 does have some weakness, low amount of ammo and It's not as fast as many planes. For buffs in mho, you need a fast plane.
You are kidding, right?
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You are kidding, right?
ditto.
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You are kidding, right?
Or drunk..........
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You are kidding, right?
I stand corrected. I reviewed the specs. I only tested the diving and climbing aspects just to see if I could duplicate what was in the film.
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K4 = pure own.
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K4 = pure own.
:aok :aok
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Wow, what a plane! I was watching some countrymen engage one the other day, even filmed it. When reviewing the film I saw it dive from 14k to 9k and then pull back up to 16k. My poor ole F4U-1A just couldn't keep pace. I thought what is up with this. In fact, reviewing the film the plane actually accelerated while climbing at one point. Nothing super major, maybe 2 to 3 mph. My plane decelerates the instant I pull up. I thought to myself this is nonsense. So I went to the TA and tested one with a full tank of gas. I dove down from 14k to 9k and in fact climbed to 17k and probably could have made it to 18k. It was still climbing at about 90 to 100mph. I'm surprised I don't see 5 of these for every other plane up. I then tested it in a dive. No problem there either. Dove great! When you see them on the deck you just know they are going to go vertical but you cannot even come close to bringing your gun sights on them unless you catch them at the apex of their climb, at least not in an f4. What really gets me though, is that they are usually the last one left in a furball and when you shoot them down, the arrogant xxx call you carp or much much worse, thinking they are just superior pilots. No not in this case, it really is the plane.
109 K-4 are a very good plane to fly, i like it a lot. :salute
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what is the difference in the 109-K4 and say for example the G6? and please keep in mind that i almost never fly ANY variant of the 109, im just curious. :salute
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what is the difference in the 109-K4 and say for example the G6? and please keep in mind that i almost never fly ANY variant of the 109, im just curious. :salute
The main difference is engine power. K4 is a much faster & better climbing plane, with some reduction in turning ability. In addition to that, the K4 has a 30mm hub cannon instead of a 20mm one.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g6&p2=109k4
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K4 = pure own.
:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
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I like the K4 alot, but I've not mastered the coconut chucker yet, so I like to fly the G14, its still no K4..but it still climbs quite good.
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Did a little comparison:
All comparisons were done at 12k. (Way too much time for all alts).
Plane Indicated Ground Wep Indicated Wep Ground
F4U-1A 311 374 332 399
109-K4 322 388 347 418
F4U-F4 321 386 339 407
P51D 338 407 344 414
Tempest 323 388 331 398
Results may vary :lol
The f4u-1a and the p51 were at 3/4 tanks, all others had full tanks and no ord or drop tanks.
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Sucker the k4 into turning with you. If he doesn't hit on a snapshot in the first couple of "threads" on the rolling scissor he's in a tough position. As long as your aim is decent enough to hit him from 400 yds when he either goes up or tries to extend out, the hog super flaps, gun platform, and stall characteristics keep the k4 on a short leash.
F4u's and ki84's are the most difficult planes to fight against in a k4. I could say "it's the plane not the pilot" about most hogs in this match up too. But ultimately it comes down to how the carpenter uses his tools.
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Sucker the k4 into turning with you. If he doesn't hit on a snapshot in the first couple of "threads" on the rolling scissor he's in a tough position. As long as your aim is decent enough to hit him from 400 yds when he either goes up or tries to extend out, the hog super flaps, gun platform, and stall characteristics keep the k4 on a short leash.
F4u's and ki84's are the most difficult planes to fight against in a k4. I could say "it's the plane not the pilot" about most hogs in this match up too. But ultimately it comes down to how the carpenter uses his tools.
Thanks Scotch!
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Scotch, if the 109 driver is any good at all he'll just spiral-climb above the F4U. Mastering the spiral-climb is probably the most important thing to learn when flying late mark 109s. The only F4U that can best a well flown K4 is the -4.
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As I stated, the hog has to lure the k4 into flying it's game instead of flying the k4's.
You can't out spiral climb 50cal rounds from a hog hovering on his flaps 400yds or closer even if you are outpacing the hog in the vert.
I do have a little stick time in the k4...
Of course I'm talking about knife fights in a head to head environment and not timid school girl slapping matches.
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Getback do you have film of the K4 accelerating climb?
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As I stated, the hog has to lure the k4 into flying it's game instead of flying the k4's.
You can't out spiral climb 50cal rounds from a hog hovering on his flaps 400yds or closer even if you are outpacing the hog in the vert.
I do have a little stick time in the k4...
Of course I'm talking about knife fights in a head to head environment and not timid school girl slapping matches.
Just curious Scotch, do you lighten your nose a tad in the f4 vs k4?
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Getback do you have film of the K4 accelerating climb?
Yes, however, I don't want the folks names out there. It wouldn't be right. Don't misunderstand me after the short and small increase his speed dropped.
Another thing I noticed was how light the 109 k4 is. It's like 4,000 lbs. less than the f4U's. Armor I figure is the difference.
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Yes, however, I don't want the folks names out there. It wouldn't be right. Don't misunderstand me after the short and small increase his speed dropped.
Another thing I noticed was how light the 109 k4 is. It's like 4,000 lbs. less than the f4U's. Armor I figure is the difference.
Going off of memory it's around twice that weight.
Nevermind the period confused me sorry :D
Also I don't think he wants the film to start a witch hunt...
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Yeah I'm just curious. Thanks anyway :)
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As I stated, the hog has to lure the k4 into flying it's game instead of flying the k4's.
Only possible against novice 109 drivers, and not really a good point when arguing aircraft capabilities. Any plane can and will win over any other plane if the opposition is dumb enough to fight on your terms.
You can't out spiral climb 50cal rounds from a hog hovering on his flaps 400yds or closer even if you are outpacing the hog in the vert.
The F4U will be hard pressed to get guns on a spiral-climbing K-4, no matter how well it floats. A 109K-4 with a good driver will completely dominate the fight and can reset or leave at will. The F4U's only chance of winning is if the K-4 driver makes a mistake, and fighting on the F4U's terms would be a big one.
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The F4U will be hard pressed to get guns on a spiral-climbing K-4
Nope.. The K4 will dominate as you say only if you're willing to risk moments thru the hog's 50cal reach. Scotch is spot on, on that. Ceteris paribus.
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If HO are out as per common dueling etiquette I really don't see how a Hog-1 can prevail against a well flown K-4. The .50's have a long reach and lucky shots are of course possible, but then again every time the 109 makes a pass the Hog risks 30mm instant death; lucky shots by definition are statistically irrelevant.
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The premise is equal pilots.. In that one, a K4 pilot that knows how to properly spiral climb will also know how to properly nose up for a solution. The visibility and MK108 gunnery from the K4 is difficult enough that an equal pilot would have equal chances of dodging the K4 on the way down from a failed solution on the spiraling K4.
The situation where the F4 really is hard pressed is on the deck, where there's no room to accelerate back to effective evasive speed.
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That is true, and a 109K-4 needs a good pilot to fly it properly. The Hog is much more forgiving and easier to fight if you're a novice. However, every time the Hog has to dodge it expends energy it cannot easily replace, while the 109 can actually build energy during B&Z passes. The longer the fight lasts the greater the 109's advantage... Up to a point of course. The point is that the Hog will be totally defensive and can only hope the 109 driver gives him a brief opportunity for a lucky shot.
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Let me put it this way: If both pilots are novices I'd put my money on the F4U. However, if both pilots are experts I'd bet on the K-4.
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There's enough room for the F4U to get a killshot before the K4 works (climbs) its way to a dominant position that I wouldn't bet on either of em if experienced pilots are driving em.
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It's been a while since I got some stick time in a K-4 but here's what I'd do against an F4U (or any other turner). I start by making B&Z passes, but I don't actually intend to get a gun solution. A high energy turner is far too difficult to hit. I only B&Z him to make him expend energy in evading, and I make sure I break off in time to be out of guns range when he turns back into me. I will repeat these fake attacks until he's on the deck, slow and helpless before making the kill pass.
Of course, after a while it becomes extremely boring, which is why it's been a while since I got some stick time in a K-4. It's über, but boring in the long run.
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I agree on the the 1hog having to kill the k4 quickly. The longer the fight the more the K4's advantage, it's hard to get E back in a hog but comes in spades to a K4. Now a 4 hog on the other hand is a different fight all together, it can get E back a lot quicker then a 1.
:salute
BigRat
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I agree Diehard,
I find in the K4, you have to be patient, and work your prey untill, an easy shot presents itself, unless..your a bit of a sniper with the 30mm. I use my MGs for deflection shops.
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The Hog-4 is probably the best prop fighter in the game, bar none. It's usually a big part of my monthly perk bar-tab.
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It's been a while since I got some stick time in a K-4 but here's what I'd do against an F4U (or any other turner). I start by making B&Z passes, but I don't actually intend to get a gun solution. A high energy turner is far too difficult to hit. I only B&Z him to make him expend energy in evading, and I make sure I break off in time to be out of guns range when he turns back into me. I will repeat these fake attacks until he's on the deck, slow and helpless before making the kill pass.
Of course, after a while it becomes extremely boring, which is why it's been a while since I got some stick time in a K-4. It's über, but boring in the long run.
That is fine working from an advantage. What about co alt, co E? Kind of hard to set up a BnZ. Especially if the hog doesn't do the burn all e on the merge.
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The original question presented, paraphrased, is "how does a hog pilot beat a k4 head to head if he can out climb me?"
Saying that the k4 is the better plane and wins every time (through B&Z) does not answer the question posed.
To be honest, I can count the number of other k4 pilots that are equal or better than me on one hand. The other hand is for counting the hog pilots that can potentially beat me in this match up. I know the position that I don't want to end up in during a duel against those hog drivers. And that is the answer to his match up question.
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I only shot one down last tour in K4, it was the only one that I came accross, we were climbing and turning to the left with quite a bit of E, I shot a 30mm at 600yards and took his wing off, the luckiest and best shot of the last tour :rock
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Just curious Scotch, do you lighten your nose a tad in the f4 vs k4?
If you mean by dumping ammo...
I find that in any match up, the small amount of weight lost is really insignificant compared to the angles you and your opponent choose.
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That is fine working from an advantage. What about co alt, co E? Kind of hard to set up a BnZ. Especially if the hog doesn't do the burn all e on the merge.
Co-alt, co-E the K-4 still has the advantage since it can build E much more quickly than the Hog-1. After the merge the 109 slowly pulls up into a zoom climb and starts building E on the Hog. There is little or nothing the Hog can do to prevent the 109 from gaining the advantage. The 109 is faster, climbs better and accelerates faster; it is really not a fair match at all.
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109k4 - easy to fly, hard to master.
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Sucker the k4 into turning with you. If he doesn't hit on a snapshot in the first couple of "threads" on the rolling scissor he's in a tough position.
This is the post I first replied to. The problem with "suckering" the 109 to turn with you is that the 109 will then be on your six. If the Hog slams on the brakes trying to force an overshoot the 109 can pull up and loop around. Once the 109 driver realizes his mistake he has two options to extend and reset/escape. Number 1 is to break out of the circle or opposite of the scissors and run. The 109 accelerates so quickly that he stands a good chance getting out of guns range, but if the Hog pilot is good and reacts quickly he will get a departing shot at the 109's bellybutton end; however being such a small target the 109 stands a good chance of surviving. The second and better option is to start spiral climbing above the Hog. Now, remember that the 109 starts out on the Hog's tail, and the Hog needs to circle around to even begin to follow the 109. The 109 should match the Hog's turn or scissors while climbing, keeping the Hog close but below. If the Hog breaks out of the circle in an attempt to extend and reverse the 109 can simply drop back down on the Hog's six for a free shot opportunity and reset.
I guess my point is that even after making the mistake of turning with the Hog,if the 109 pilot makes no further mistakes and knows what to do it's still very much a one sided fight.
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109k4 - easy to fly, hard to master.
I think that's true of the Corsair, as well. There really isn't any adequate way to factor out relative pilot capabilities in this match, it's very close.
- oldman
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Keep in mind that although the F4U can sustain a smaller radius, the 109 K4 can sustain a faster rate of turn than the non-4 hog.. The Kurt does not have to entirely "b&z" the hog.
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If you mean by dumping ammo...
I find that in any match up, the small amount of weight lost is really insignificant compared to the angles you and your opponent choose.
No, I meant trimming the plane. I can never get enough ammo.
Addendum: I looked to see how many I killed. It was 3. One was a 2 vs 1 with the K4 being the one. It was a tough kill even with 2 on him.
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There are a few planes where the ammo is significant. The N1K and 152 are two examples.. The N1K can afford to lose 300 lbs easily.. The 152 also has enough ammo that if you're going to need every inch and 1/10th of a second for e.g. a plane about to bounce you, dumping down to ~100x20/50x30 rounds is worth it. But the K4 is punchy enough and has only 65 rounds of 30mm, so that it's not worth dumping anything. The MG131 doesn't make any significant difference.
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Keep in mind that although the F4U can sustain a smaller radius, the 109 K4 can sustain a faster rate of turn than the non-4 hog.. The Kurt does not have to entirely "b&z" the hog.
Throttle control (using the wicked torque of the K-4)
One of the most deadly and least used details of mastering the Kurfurst
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It's been a while since I got some stick time in a K-4 but here's what I'd do against an F4U (or any other turner). I start by making B&Z passes, but I don't actually intend to get a gun solution. A high energy turner is far too difficult to hit. I only B&Z him to make him expend energy in evading, and I make sure I break off in time to be out of guns range when he turns back into me. I will repeat these fake attacks until he's on the deck, slow and helpless before making the kill pass.
This assumes that the K4 enters the fight with an advantage. The K4 would be in just as much trouble if the positions were reversed - with consideration given to the K4's ability to regain E faster than the non-4 Hog's.
Using the K4 as a "B&Z" plane is a faulty use, IMO. Just the same, considering the F4U a "turner" is equally faulty. The Corsair can outdive and out zoom the K4 with relative ease due to weight and wing design.
The K4 is a horrible diver and its advantage in ROC vs the F4U - in actual use as opposed to on paper - is only at lower speeds due to the aforementioned zoom ability of the Corsair, which is not measured.
In other words, both aircraft being at 400 knots, I wouldnt try climbing away from an F4U because it would follow just fine. However, at 200 knots, a spiral climb is a fine play and - even then - you run the risk of the F4U gaining a flaps-fueled gun solution, anyway, as Agent pointed out.
Regardless, the two big advantages that the K4 has over much of the plane set are both found at low speeds; the ability to take a low-speed fight into the vertical and the ability to accelerate very quickly.
At high speeds, the K4's only advantage is the actual indicated/true air speed, itself. The airframe does not handle high speed well and the weapons might as well be on 'Safe' because youre not hiting anything thats not AFK with a tater at 400MPH.
With that in mind, against the F4U, you simply avoid his strengths and exploit his weaknesses. That means forcing the fight low and slow, and then taking it vertical. While the Corsair may hang on with flaps, the K4's ability to bring the nose back down in this situation, with engine torque (or lack thereof on the opposite direction), is the key to a quick victory.
If the fight is at altitude and the K4 can not convert to a guns solution quickly, the Corsair is very capable of holding E in the opposite manner precribed above. It will outdive the K4 and, as previously mentioned, will then proceed to outzoom the K4 (if the K4 doesnt compress and lawn dart) - reversing any advantage previously held.
Point is - I wouldnt be so quick to discount the Corsair as unable to contend with a K4. Im pretty far from a top-tier 109 driver - hell I suck compared to most - but there are more than a few F4U sticks that give me fits. Dogg and Vudak come to mind, for example.
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"Weight" in and of itself is not an advantage in the vertical. There was an interesting discussion on this awhile back.
Anway, an interesting experiment is to take the different planes in the set, dive to 400mph, and then hold them in a max zoom climb. You'll be surprised
how little difference in max zooms there is.
This assumes that the K4 enters the fight with an advantage. The K4 would be in just as much trouble if the positions were reversed - with consideration given to the K4's ability to regain E faster than the non-4 Hog's.
Using the K4 as a "B&Z" plane is a faulty use, IMO. Just the same, considering the F4U a "turner" is equally faulty. The Corsair can outdive and out zoom the K4 with relative ease due to weight and wing design.
The K4 is a horrible diver and its advantage in ROC vs the F4U - in actual use as opposed to on paper - is only at lower speeds due to the aforementioned zoom ability of the Corsair, which is not measured.
In other words, both aircraft being at 400 knots, I wouldnt try climbing away from an F4U because it would follow just fine. However, at 200 knots, a spiral climb is a fine play and - even then - you run the risk of the F4U gaining a flaps-fueled gun solution, anyway, as Agent pointed out.
Regardless, the two big advantages that the K4 has over much of the plane set are both found at low speeds; the ability to take a low-speed fight into the vertical and the ability to accelerate very quickly.
At high speeds, the K4's only advantage is the actual indicated/true air speed, itself. The airframe does not handle high speed well and the weapons might as well be on 'Safe' because youre not hiting anything thats not AFK with a tater at 400MPH.
With that in mind, against the F4U, you simply avoid his strengths and exploit his weaknesses. That means forcing the fight low and slow, and then taking it vertical. While the Corsair may hang on with flaps, the K4's ability to bring the nose back down in this situation, with engine torque (or lack thereof on the opposite direction), is the key to a quick victory.
If the fight is at altitude and the K4 can not convert to a guns solution quickly, the Corsair is very capable of holding E in the opposite manner precribed above. It will outdive the K4 and, as previously mentioned, will then proceed to outzoom the K4 (if the K4 doesnt compress and lawn dart) - reversing any advantage previously held.
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I'm surprised I don't see 5 of these for every other plane up.
65 rounds... is no spray and pray with this bird. I believe that this is the main reason why people stay away from the K and that suits me just fine. This is probably my favorite bird to fly in the game but because I really need steady stick time (which I haven't had lately) to be accurate with the 108 I find myself staying out of it.
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This assumes that the K4 enters the fight with an advantage. The K4 would be in just as much trouble if the positions were reversed - with consideration given to the K4's ability to regain E faster than the non-4 Hog's.
The K-4 will have the advantage unless the F4U brings a lot more energy into the fight. As I said earlier:
Co-alt, co-E the K-4 still has the advantage since it can build E much more quickly than the Hog-1. After the merge the 109 slowly pulls up into a zoom climb and starts building E on the Hog. There is little or nothing the Hog can do to prevent the 109 from gaining the advantage. The 109 is faster, climbs better and accelerates faster; it is really not a fair match at all.
Even if the Hog starts at a position of a marginal advantage it is fairly easy and reasonably safe for an experienced K-4 driver to equalize E and then build an E advantage over the Hog.
The Corsair can outdive and out zoom the K4 with relative ease due to weight and wing design.
Not in my experience, but YMMV.
The K4 is a horrible diver and its advantage in ROC vs the F4U - in actual use as opposed to on paper - is only at lower speeds due to the aforementioned zoom ability of the Corsair, which is not measured.
The K-4 is a good diver if you trim it manually. The K-4 requires a good pilot to get the most out of it, it is not an easy plane to fight. The power to weight ratio of the K-4 compensates for the Hog's greater mass. A K-4 will not have a problem following a Hog in a zoom climb; the Hog will pull away initially, but the K-4 will close the distance near the top of the climb.
In other words, both aircraft being at 400 knots, I wouldnt try climbing away from an F4U because it would follow just fine.
Neither aircraft can sustain 400 knots, I'm going to assume you meant 400 mph. You assume the Hog has the positional advantage of being on the 109's six. In a head-on merge like most fights start the 109 has the advantage like described in my quote above. If the Hog is on the 109's six, both at 400 mph the 109 can gain separation using its superior speed.
Regardless, the two big advantages that the K4 has over much of the plane set are both found at low speeds; the ability to take a low-speed fight into the vertical and the ability to accelerate very quickly.
That is inaccurate; the K-4 has marked advantages at all speeds and most altitudes. The K-4 is the fastest non-perked plane between 5k and 26k+, It is also the best climber (and thus acceleration) in that altitude band. At 20k the K-4 still has a 1,500+ fpm climb advantage against a Hog-1a. Under 5k there are three non-perked planes that are faster: La-7, Dora and Typhoon.
If the fight is at altitude and the K4 can not convert to a guns solution quickly, the Corsair is very capable of holding E in the opposite manner precribed above. It will outdive the K4 and, as previously mentioned, will then proceed to outzoom the K4 (if the K4 doesnt compress and lawn dart) - reversing any advantage previously held.
The K-4 does not have a compression problem (like the P-38 for instance), it has a control force problem. However, that problem can be alleviated by manual trim (unlike the P-38). An experienced K-4 driver does not lawn-dart, and still has full control at 500 mph being able to pull black-out turns. Trimming is key to handling the K-4 (or any 109 really) at high speed.
Point is - I wouldnt be so quick to discount the Corsair as unable to contend with a K4.
Nor would I, but if the pilots are good, my money is on the K-4.
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Climb and acceleration are all well and good, Die Hard, and indeed the K4 has all the tools she needs to survive an encounter with a Corsair, but if winning is important, she still needs to either turn around, or come down and kill it, and that can pose some significant problems along the way.
The ability to dance around slow-firing 30mms, and reach out with some long-ranged 50's in return will make dealing with any decently flown hog a challenge. You have to be aggressive enough to keep the hog burning E, but not so aggressive that the Hog starts to gain the correct angle.
Remember, the Hog can initiate a zoom from <150 and keep going until darn near zero. That's a good amount of time for a killshot if the angle is right. Further, the 109 will eventually stall as well, and if there isn't sufficient angle or separation, they'll just float down neutrally.
I've spent many hours dueling some excellent K4 sticks in the -1 and 1A, and I've found this to be a match up where the two planes can find themselves in a stalemate for quite longer than one might expect from the #s. It really does come down to who messes up when.
K4's v. 1A's are very fun fights :aok
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Actually I find them rather boring, me being in the K-4 that is. In the F4U it can be exhilarating... Danger always is. ;)
Draining the Hog's E is indeed a time consuming process unless the Hog driver makes the mistake of dumping all his E to get angles for a difficult shot at the 109 buzzing by. In such a fight fuel is the critical resource rather than ammo. More than once have I been forced to leave defenseless prey alone and RTB because of the Rote Lampe.
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Actually I find them rather boring, me being in the K-4 that is. In the F4U it can be exhilarating... Danger always is. ;)
Draining the Hog's E is indeed a time consuming process unless the Hog driver makes the mistake of dumping all his E to get angles for a difficult shot at the 109 buzzing by. In such a fight fuel is the critical resource rather than ammo. More than once have I been forced to leave defenseless prey alone and RTB because of the Rote Lampe.
Almost all the f4's are just steady beasts. I can hardly pull myself out of them. Occasionally I will hop into a jug or pony. Pony if I'm seeking an advantage over a large group of cons and the jug if I need a large amount of ordinance for gv's.
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Remember, the Hog can initiate a zoom from <150 and keep going until darn near zero.
Yeesh, sounds like the sort of thing only a P-38 *should* be able to do.
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Actually I find them rather boring, me being in the K-4 that is. In the F4U it can be exhilarating... Danger always is. ;)
Draining the Hog's E is indeed a time consuming process unless the Hog driver makes the mistake of dumping all his E to get angles for a difficult shot at the 109 buzzing by. In such a fight fuel is the critical resource rather than ammo. More than once have I been forced to leave defenseless prey alone and RTB because of the Rote Lampe.
It sounds like you're making it more boring than it has to be :) Go find Creton and ask him to show you how to whoop a Corsair quickly, and you'll have a blast :aok
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Yeesh, sounds like the sort of thing only a P-38 *should* be able to do.
Nah, seems like something almost any plane in the game "should" be able to do. Heck, I can do it outside with a rock. Just toss it up vertically, it slows to zero, and falls back down.
I'm enjoying this thread, and agree with much of what's been posted, but lets try to keep it realistic. BTW, I'm in line with Die Hard's appraisal for the most part.
The F4U is flying at double its stall speed at 150, and it's a fighter, not a bomber. I would certainly hope it would be able to do something as simple as lift its nose at that speed.
I fly the F4U a fair amount, and have lots of films of doing all sorts of things in it. I can't find one that shows any radical manuevering at speeds much below 120. In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80. I may not suddenly flop into the ground as a result of dipping below stall speed, but I'm certainly not doing any serious manuevering either... As a matter of fact, once I get below about 80, I can reasonably expect to do some required "recovery" control before I can even think about my next combat manuever.
Actually, I'd love to see films of anyone doing otherwise at speeds less than 75-80mph. Maybe I can learn something.
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I fly the F4U a fair amount, and have lots of films of doing all sorts of things in it. I can't find one that shows any radical manuevering at speeds much below 120. In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80. I may not suddenly flop into the ground as a result of dipping below stall speed, but I'm certainly not doing any serious manuevering either... As a matter of fact, once I get below about 80, I can reasonably expect to do some required "recovery" control before I can even think about my next combat manuever.
Actually, I'd love to see films of anyone doing otherwise at speeds less than 75-80mph. Maybe I can learn something.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to create the impression that you can do much when you are that slow, but you can do "nothing" for awhile until you get near zero and tailslide out.
Sometimes doing nothing is what you need to do. If you're in the right position and can manage to stay there and not prematurely flop into the wrong position, you're all good :aok
About the only thing that I've noticed a hog can do that slow that many other planes can't (at least as well) is decide which way they'd like to flop, be it left or right. Many planes (the Mustang for example) are real pains in the butt to get to go to the right, and I don't have the same issue with hogs. So that too is an advantage, if slim.
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Nah, seems like something almost any plane in the game "should" be able to do. Heck, I can do it outside with a rock. Just toss it up vertically, it slows to zero, and falls back down.
I was thinking about the physics of being vertical with very low IAS and full power with a very powerful single prop up front.
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I did something yesterday in a F4U-1d that I should have thought better of. I had 1 egg and 8 rockets on board. Didn't want to discard my egg because there was gv's to be had. A p51 came over to the base I was defending. He passes me 3 times without engaging. So I figure he must be heavy as well. Then I came to realize that one of us is going to have to kill the other. So after he dives for a 3rd time I dive on him and he pulls up. I keep my egg and rockets and nervously pull up. Fortunately just before stall I nail him. I was taken back abit. That has never worked before. Afterwards I review the film and sure enough you can see all 6 of his rockets upon close magnification. I couldn't tell if he had bombs or not. I was going to post the picture but you can't see my eggs or my rockets, just the rocket rails.
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I still prefer to fly the 109G-6 or G-14. Better skins, more history, far more significant aircraft.
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The K4 is a real pain in the butt to fly, IMO, but if I had to fight 2v1 for the rest of my life, I'd probably take it.
That's how I feel about every 109. If I were in a constant gang of lets say 3 to 4v.1 I would take a 109 over anything.
What's weird is, I cannot fight 109 v. 109 to save my life, but 109 v. Spit, I can beat him 9 out of the 10 times.
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I still prefer to fly the 109G-6 or G-14. Better skins, more history, far more significant aircraft.
That is how I feel about the P-47D. Not quite enough to fly something 25mph slower than the N mind you, but the feeling *is* there.
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Nah, seems like something almost any plane in the game "should" be able to do. Heck, I can do it outside with a rock. Just toss it up vertically, it slows to zero, and falls back down.
I'm enjoying this thread, and agree with much of what's been posted, but lets try to keep it realistic. BTW, I'm in line with Die Hard's appraisal for the most part.
The F4U is flying at double its stall speed at 150, and it's a fighter, not a bomber. I would certainly hope it would be able to do something as simple as lift its nose at that speed.
I fly the F4U a fair amount, and have lots of films of doing all sorts of things in it. I can't find one that shows any radical manuevering at speeds much below 120. In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80. I may not suddenly flop into the ground as a result of dipping below stall speed, but I'm certainly not doing any serious manuevering either... As a matter of fact, once I get below about 80, I can reasonably expect to do some required "recovery" control before I can even think about my next combat manuever.
Actually, I'd love to see films of anyone doing otherwise at speeds less than 75-80mph. Maybe I can learn something.
I fought Mtnman a couple of times last night, -1a to k4. Not that it's a good representation of what the k4 can do against the Corsair with equal pilots or anything, but he whupped me pretty quickly and easily both times. In each case, I just wasn't able to get slow enough to keep from overshooting, squirted out in front and ate a nubmer of 50cal rounds. I couldn't get my flaps out in time, even with the throttle all the way off and cross control, to keep in a lag position.
Now I usually like that matchup, and feel good about my chances with a lot of guys, but in this instance, I just couldn't hang at all with him. They were fun fights though, however short.
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I just wasn't able to get slow enough...
There's your problem: You shouldn't try to be slow at all. ;)
If he has E don't go for the shot. He will just force an overshoot and turn back into you. Instead when he breaks you break opposite and climb. Get back on him quick so he can't regain the E he lost in evading you. Use the 13mm MGs to scare him into wasting E while your primary objective is to keep out of his firing arc. Only when he's on the deck and low on E should you try to kill him. Use manual trim (trim nose light for quickly pulling up from dives) and keep your speed high. When you pass him you should never be flying anywhere near in the same direction as he. That is easier if you dive is as vertical as possible; you then just roll and pull up (you'll have to use rudder and trim to roll). Flying the K-4 is like a chess match. Position is key.
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I fought Mtnman a couple of times last night, -1a to k4. Not that it's a good representation of what the k4 can do against the Corsair with equal pilots or anything, but he whupped me pretty quickly and easily both times. In each case, I just wasn't able to get slow enough to keep from overshooting, squirted out in front and ate a nubmer of 50cal rounds. I couldn't get my flaps out in time, even with the throttle all the way off and cross control, to keep in a lag position.
Now I usually like that matchup, and feel good about my chances with a lot of guys, but in this instance, I just couldn't hang at all with him. They were fun fights though, however short.
I didn't film all of our encounters, but I have the two I saved uploading, I'll post them in a few minutes.
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but lets try to keep it realistic. ... In the vertical, I'm not doing much beyond a pre-aimed "coast" at speeds lower than 80.
From 150 to 80 (60 or so if you do things just right in my experience) is an eternity in the vertical, when you've correctly guessed where the fight is going and prepared for it.
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OK, here are the two films I have from madda and me 109K4 vs F4U-1A last night.
First, I think what you percieved is a common mis-perception. You mention you couldn't get slow enough. Look at my speed! When we're doing the rolling scissors, I'm averaging around 180! I'm NOT trying to get slow! In my mind, I'm trying to keep speed, because if I get slow I won't be able to keep up/catch you, and could easily beome helpless! Watch the film, keep an eye on the speeds. I think you'll be amazed at how slow I'm NOT.
http://www.mediafire.com/?yjyzmmycadf
Second, look at the next film. Look at the text. You mention how I just floated there. I wasn't floating much in that case either. I was doing my absolute best to not get shoot by you guys. Even when I'm slow, I'm not really all that slow... Sure, a few times I hung, but that was out of desperation with you guys on me. The times I dip to slow speed I'm vertical, and "falling off" by 80 mph. Once I dip into the low 60's, but again, I'm falling off with little/no control. I'm just trying not to spin it. Unless I have 120mph or so, I'm not doing a whole lot except waiting for my nose to come down and get speed. When I'm actively manuevering with you guys, my speed is seldom under 120mph, and is generally closer to 200mph. This fight is basically about three things from my perspective. One, don't get shot. Two, don't get slow, unless I can quickly get fast again, and three, don't lose altitude. That's a tough recipe against two fast planes, who are not flying wingtip to wingtip..
http://www.mediafire.com/?x0zeyqm1m5j
Again, it's amazing how slow I'm NOT.
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From 150 to 80 (60 or so if you do things just right in my experience) is an eternity in the vertical, when you've correctly guessed where the fight is going and prepared for it.
You're right of course, but the same can be said of any plane. I just tested five to see and compare the vertical performance in that speed range. I'll post films soon.
Of course the "when you've correctly guess and prepared" idea is pilot skill, rather than plane performance.
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I wasn't really saying it was true only for the F4U (tho it's esp. true given the F4U's stability and control authority), just that against a K4, being able to hold steady all the way down to 60-80 IAS is very significant.
Pilot skill - Yes and the comparison is between equal pilots. I think the K4 pilot needs as much skill to successfully exploit the K4's 30mm and engine as he would to ride the F4U's envelope for all it's worth :) Tho IMO there's no doubt that the K4 and F4U are pretty disparately matched.. I mean, their optimal regimes don't overlap much.
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I was thinking about the physics of being vertical with very low IAS and full power with a very powerful single prop up front.
I did a little filming of vertical stall tendancies, to compare. I didn't care/work on actual zoom height/distance at all, but really wanted to see the difference between the five planes in to 150ish to "zero" airspeed range, and what they were likely to do at the top.
Keep in mind, I don't fly these planes other than the F4U. I actually had to adjust my views for the 109. Someone who flies these regularly could probably do better in them.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/w5mz3negtz1/109K4.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/itiogwmndji/F4U vertical.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zzwmmhm2jy3/P38.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zmwq44ncyqy/P51.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/xdzlt0d4f5m/Spit16.ahf
One, the P38 is the easiest plane to do that with. It goes up, falls forward or back, and is basically flyable immediately. No torque effect, no wing-drop that I could see. Very easy. Flaps up, flaps down, it was the easiest to maintain control of.
The 109K4, P51, F4U-1A, and Spit16 all performed about the same. They all go up into the 60-80 mph range with ease, and no ill effects. They all go up, slow down, and reach a point where you can no longer keep the nose up, because there's no control authority. At that point, they'll all flop over and try to spin to some extent. None were violent by any means. All were easily recoverable in minimal rotations. With flaps, and without flaps. If anything, without flaps was "more comfortable", and easier to recover. I'm not sure why someone would want to hang vertical with flaps down, especially if they're trying to maximize the vert, but I tried it just the same.
The speed of the fall-over varied a bit, but was as high as about 58mph and as low as 27 mph (both extremes were with the F4U). The low speed of 27mph actually was part of a fall-off that occured at about 50mph. For the most part, the planes depart vertical in the 43ish to 55ish mph. IMO, the speed where they depart vertical has more to do with the set-up angle and use of controls, less to do with the plane-type. If anything, I thought the 109 hung better (but not as good as the P38), and the plane I fly most fell off earliest. And that's with essentially no 109 experience... I couldn't get any of them to "zero" mph.
Not by much, and I don't think the speed difference is enough to matter much in real world (AH) scenarios, since with adequate SA we shouldn't be dragging planes up for ropes that are faster than us, in guns range, or at an angle where they can "cut the corner" on us. Hanging on the top of rolls in the rolling scissors is nice, but even then we're almost never all that slow, at least I'm not, as you can see by the earlier films.
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OK, here are the two films I have from madda and me 109K4 vs F4U-1A last night.
First, I think what you percieved is a common mis-perception. You mention you couldn't get slow enough. Look at my speed! When we're doing the rolling scissors, I'm averaging around 180! I'm NOT trying to get slow! In my mind, I'm trying to keep speed, because if I get slow I won't be able to keep up/catch you, and could easily beome helpless! Watch the film, keep an eye on the speeds. I think you'll be amazed at how slow I'm NOT.
http://www.mediafire.com/?yjyzmmycadf
Second, look at the next film. Look at the text. You mention how I just floated there. I wasn't floating much in that case either. I was doing my absolute best to not get shoot by you guys. Even when I'm slow, I'm not really all that slow... Sure, a few times I hung, but that was out of desperation with you guys on me. The times I dip to slow speed I'm vertical, and "falling off" by 80 mph. Once I dip into the low 60's, but again, I'm falling off with little/no control. I'm just trying not to spin it. Unless I have 120mph or so, I'm not doing a whole lot except waiting for my nose to come down and get speed. When I'm actively manuevering with you guys, my speed is seldom under 120mph, and is generally closer to 200mph. This fight is basically about three things from my perspective. One, don't get shot. Two, don't get slow, unless I can quickly get fast again, and three, don't lose altitude. That's a tough recipe against two fast planes, who are not flying wingtip to wingtip..
http://www.mediafire.com/?x0zeyqm1m5j
Again, it's amazing how slow I'm NOT.
Yeah I see what you mean there. It really is amazing how different those fights looked from my perspective too. I think when I said slow I'm meaning slow relative to me maybe. From my perspective it looked quite different really. That spot where I said you just sort of floated it around was in the sort of falling spiral where I overshot you. I think I'm seeing the overshoot combined with angle and lag and that made it look like you were almost just hovering, when really you were moving pretty fast and I was moving just a bit faster.
I think I'm a victim of trying to get too close and follow you through stuff there instead of extend at times or get much more vertical seperation in that rolling scissors. It looked like I was making a lot of moves in a lead position rather than making wider lag kinda moves. I think.
I'm just trying to learn to do this stuff, so I'm probably mistaken there. It's obvious to me that I need a lot of work.
That first film by the way, I think I have it saved on my end too. Those were really fun fights no matter what, I enjoy fighting and bsing with you.
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Yeah I see what you mean there. It really is amazing how different those fights looked from my perspective too. I think when I said slow I'm meaning slow relative to me maybe. From my perspective it looked quite different really. That spot where I said you just sort of floated it around was in the sort of falling spiral where I overshot you. I think I'm seeing the overshoot combined with angle and lag and that made it look like you were almost just hovering, when really you were moving pretty fast and I was moving just a bit faster.
I think I'm a victim of trying to get too close and follow you through stuff there instead of extend at times or get much more vertical seperation in that rolling scissors. It looked like I was making a lot of moves in a lead position rather than making wider lag kinda moves. I think.
I'm just trying to learn to do this stuff, so I'm probably mistaken there. It's obvious to me that I need a lot of work.
That first film by the way, I think I have it saved on my end too. Those were really fun fights no matter what, I enjoy fighting and bsing with you.
Good, I think you're seeing what you should be seeing in that film. If the 109K4 keeps the fight a bit more "loose" and uses the vertical, and avoids turning tight and close with the F4U, the F4U IMO, is going to have a rough time getting the upper hand. Almost without fail, when I'm attacked by a K4, or merge with one that doesn't scrub loads of E with a hard, tight immelmann, all I can do is dodge his attacks, and hopefully do a decent enough job that he gets frustrated and decides to latch onto my tail. I've been on the recieving end of enough 109K4 attacks to know that I can't control the fight UNTIL the 109 pilot starts to PLAY TO MY STRENGTHS. The same can be said for several other planes out there, ponies and 190D9's immediately come to mind. I'm not fast enough to direct the fight, so I have to frustrate them enough to stop playing to their strengths, and get gutsy or impatient enough to play to mine.
If/when he does that, I'm going to try to present a side profile in order to present a smaller target, and also to maximize his closure rate. We may be about the same speed, but if I can get him to attack from my side, he'll close on me rapidly, creating the illusion that I'm fairly slow. My goal here is to get him to try to saddle up, and also to think he's too fast, so he'll (hopefully) try to slow down. If that goes well I'll have the overshoot I want, with him slowing down, and then all I need is to panic him with a well-placed sprinkle of lead. I'll still have enough speed to pressure him into a turn which he's not likely to survive, or even better, he'll try to zoom upward out of my range.
But see, it all hinges on the 109 pilot falling into my strengths, and towards his weakness. If he stays fast and vertical, I can't really compete. I have to do the same thing against hurri's and zero's, or any other plane I can't turn with. I don't dare turn with them, so I stay fast.
You fought well. I'm just trying to point out that things may not always be as they appear. What you think is slow, may not actually be slow.
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I still prefer to fly the 109G-6 or G-14. Better skins, more history, far more significant aircraft.
+1 Gav. I enjoy flying the G6 every now and then when I can. Just to make sure i haven't lost it too much. :P
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+1 Gav. I enjoy flying the G6 every now and then when I can. Just to make sure i haven't lost it too much. :P
G-6 is arguably my favorite ride in the game, but K-4 is fun against a gaggle of ponies :) Plus landing a tough tater shot (under nose, heavy Gs, etc) is one of the best feelings in the game, IMO.
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The K-4 will have the advantage unless the F4U brings a lot more energy into the fight.
Youre leaving out way too many variables. If a co-E fight begins at 20K, the Corsair has plenty of room to build E with dives and zooms.
Low altitude, that ability is gone for the Corsair and the 109 is in control. At high altitude? The Corsair has options and the 109 cant follow all of them. Classifying the Corsair as 'inferior' because it builds E 'differently' than the 109 is a strange concept.
Even if the Hog starts at a position of a marginal advantage it is fairly easy and reasonably safe for an experienced K-4 driver to equalize E and then build an E advantage over the Hog.
Dependant upon the variables excluded above.
The K-4 is a good diver if you trim it manually.
In what game?
The K-4 requires a good pilot to get the most out of it, it is not an easy plane to fight.
And the Corsair does not?
The power to weight ratio of the K-4 compensates for the Hog's greater mass.
Variable dependent. What speed and altitude?
A K-4 will not have a problem following a Hog in a zoom climb; the Hog will pull away initially, but the K-4 will close the distance near the top of the climb.
Disagree. The K4 has a climb advantage over the F4U, not a zoom advantage.
Neither aircraft can sustain 400 knots, I'm going to assume you meant 400 mph.
No, I meant knots. For the purposes of this forum, they are generally used interchangably because the conversion is close enough for government work. 1 MPH = 0.87 knots. 400 MPH = 348 knots.
While I can appreciate your attempt to suggest level flight, even if you were correct, one of the primary points of discussion is the relative differences in performance at both ends of the vertical envelope (read: anything but level).
You assume the Hog has the positional advantage of being on the 109's six. In a head-on merge like most fights start the 109 has the advantage like described in my quote above. If the Hog is on the 109's six, both at 400 mph the 109 can gain separation using its superior speed.
Missing variables again.
That is inaccurate; the K-4 has marked advantages at all speeds and most altitudes. The K-4 is the fastest non-perked plane between 5k and 26k+, It is also the best climber (and thus acceleration) in that altitude band. At 20k the K-4 still has a 1,500+ fpm climb advantage against a Hog-1a. Under 5k there are three non-perked planes that are faster: La-7, Dora and Typhoon.
You may disagree, but a subjective statement can not be deemed inaccurate. What can be deemed inaccurate are performance claims. Your statement, above, that the K4 is the "fasted non-perked plane between 5K and 26K+" is inaccurate.
The K-4 does not have a compression problem (like the P-38 for instance), it has a control force problem. However, that problem can be alleviated by manual trim (unlike the P-38). An experienced K-4 driver does not lawn-dart, and still has full control at 500 mph being able to pull black-out turns. Trimming is key to handling the K-4 (or any 109 really) at high speed.
You are correct that the 109 does not have a compression problem like the P38. I have a nasty habit of classifying nearly-useless control surfaces in a dive as "compression." My bad.
Regardless, no matter how you slice it, the 109 is a horrible diver. At 500MPH (that would be 435 knots), youre not going to be doing much damage to anyone but yourself. Suggesting otherwise is semi-funny. The Corsair is one of the best divers in the game... the 109... not so much. ;)
Nor would I, but if the pilots are good, my money is on the K-4.
Ok. Well if you ever tire of arguing for the sake of argument in each thread, Ill be happy to help you with some in-game testing. :)
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I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Corsair, but that's just nonsense. My previous posts stands; you may of course disagree to your heart's content, but it won't change the fact that the 109K holds a substantial energy-building advantage over the Hog-1 at all altitudes and speeds. Claiming differently is just uninformed.
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I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Corsair, but that's just nonsense. My previous posts stands; you may of course disagree to your heart's content, but it won't change the fact that the 109K holds a substantial energy-building advantage over the Hog-1 at all altitudes and speeds. Claiming differently is just uninformed.
I thought you were comparing the late war -4 to a K4 than the early war -1.
:confused:
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I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Corsair, but that's just nonsense. My previous posts stands; you may of course disagree to your heart's content, but it won't change the fact that the 109K holds a substantial energy-building advantage over the Hog-1 at all altitudes and speeds. Claiming differently is just uninformed.
I like the Corsair but, truth be told, Im a Bayerische Flugzeugwerke guy.
Regardless, I enjoyed our little exchange, as per the usual. You never disappoint. And, again, we can do some "real world" testing whenever you like. I'd be happy to take five or ten minutes of my time, pull down your trousers and spank you like grandpa used to in both planes. :)
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Your ego seems too large for the vessel designed to contain it.
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You gotta love it when folks argue over who's plane has the worst qualities. Normally they seem to argue the opposite.
"My plane is worse than yooouurs, my plane is worse than yooouurs!"
How do you prove that with a fight? Let the other guy beat you in your prefered ride, and then beat him in his?
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You gotta love it when folks argue over who's plane has the worst qualities. Normally they seem to argue the opposite.
"My plane is worse than yooouurs, my plane is worse than yooouurs!"
How do you prove that with a fight? Let the other guy beat you in your prefered ride, and then beat him in his?
Great thread went down hill fast.
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I thought you were comparing the late war -4 to a K4 than the early war -1.
:confused:
No, the original situation described by Getback was an unperked Hog vs a 109K. It is strictly an AH thing and a completely unhistorical match-up. As I said earlier, not really fair at all. Still there are enthusiasts that are adamant the 109K doesn't hold all the cards in an energy fight against a 1942/43 Corsair I. It's rather silly.
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Films Gentlemen films!! Prove ur points of views with films, in dogfights, not just
talk ... a picture is worth a 1000 points! FILMS!
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Your ego seems too large for the vessel designed to contain it.
This is one of those pot/kettle moments, isnt it?
Cheers.
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This is one of those pot/kettle moments, isnt it?
Not really. I'm at best mediocre in this game, and not afraid to admit it.
Cheers.
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mtman, Enjoyed the films. I'm not the one in your plane and I'm annoyed with SF already :rofl :rofl
I liked the first match up when you seemed to maintain as much alt as possible. I saw one maneuver that I liked and many will miss. That is where you pulled nose up a bit instead of being baited to the fight the 109 would have preferred.
I always beat my self up for not maintaing my alt.