Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: RichardDarkwood on April 26, 2010, 08:36:40 AM
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I met this guy named Conrad the other day. We are working a deal for his Jeep. He tells me that he recently traded his 2007 Harley Davidson for a tail dragger plane. I have no idea what model this plane is but it looks real cool.
Conrad tells me he tried to take off in a field next to his house, he said he got two feet off the ground when his left wing clipped the ground and he came down flipping the plane over and busting his prop.
You wondering why I posted all this right??????
Conrad was in the 82nd Airbourne. He served two tours over in the sand box in 2003 and 2004. The only flight experience he has and I am not kidding here........
is playing MS Combat Simulator.
After he gets a new 60" prop he said he will try again. I plan on filming this take off for him. If he wrecks and lives, I may be able to make 10 grand off of america's funniest home video's, if he wrecks and doesn't make it I will sell the footage to the news people Ha Ha :rofl
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0624.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0625.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0626.jpg)
The wings
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0627.jpg)
Todd
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You might want to tell him that the trash bin is not a good place for his helmets. :O
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Ok then...that seals it...you have officially shown that the Army does not teach common sense...cannon fodder.
I'm guessing that guy doesn't understand that those wings he earned were for jumping out of a plane, not trying to fly one.
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Nice organized shop. :aok
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Till he runs into a house and kills someone else, what and idiot. Like handing a set of car keys to a 5 year old and telling them to have fun.
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That guy has broken a few laws there Todd. Not to mention a few brain cells.
I doubt the plane is registered and probably has no insurance.
He is in for a world of hurt and hopefully doesn't hurt anybody but himself.. he has done alot more damage than just "busting the prop".
I would advise you to steer clear of this idiot and give your local constabulary a call.
RTR
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Aw Come on... I think its cool as hell! Looks like a 1/4 scale mini plane, 2 cyl rotax like an ultralight.. Ya know, there was a time, when pilots flew little frail contraptions out of cow pastures, had to learn to fly in the same way he is, by doing.. If he has the room, and the gonads, more power to him.. :salute
RC
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I think i will call the FAA on this one.
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Aw Come on... I think its cool as hell! Looks like a 1/4 scale mini plane, 2 cyl rotax like an ultralight.. Ya know, there was a time, when pilots flew little frail contraptions out of cow pastures, had to learn to fly in the same way he is, by doing.. If he has the room, and the gonads, more power to him.. :salute
RC
Yea this is considered an ultra-lite so no license is needed for it.
Todd
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I trained long and hard to earn my pilot's license and still don't have it completely down. Your friend is out there doing something that will most likely get him killed. In all seriousness, you need to step in and tell him to get some help with this thing before you have attend his funeral. It's not funny, brave or harkening back to the good ol' days of learning to fly, it's just stupid. He doesn't know enough to fix the plane and he sure doesn't know enough to fly it. Let someone who's been there and done that help guide him through. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before he's in a pine box. GET SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO LOOK THIS THING OVER AND HELP HIM!!! I can promise that the first accident did more damage than he would find without knowing how and what to look for. Please, for the love of God, step in and say something.
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I trained long and hard to earn my pilot's license and still don't have it completely down. Your friend is out there doing something that will most likely get him killed. In all seriousness, you need to step in and tell him to get some help with this thing before you have attend his funeral. It's not funny, brave or harkening back to the good ol' days of learning to fly, it's just stupid. He doesn't know enough to fix the plane and he sure doesn't know enough to fly it. Let someone who's been there and done that help guide him through. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before he's in a pine box. GET SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO LOOK THIS THING OVER AND HELP HIM!!! I can promise that the first accident did more damage than he would find without knowing how and what to look for. Please, for the love of God, step in and say something.
Agreed. Don't turn him off of aviation entirely, just talk the guy into seeking some help from a professional. When the word "simulator" is tossed around, folks tend to think that game their playing is accurate enough to actually train them in the basics of flight. While it is fine for practicing procedure, you NEED some hands on experience just to get off the ground and back safely. Have him take a few lessons from an instructor in ultra-lights. It isn't as expensive if he has his own aircraft. He can probably find someone willing to do the training for free if he provides expenses. I know there's plenty of folk like that out here. It's great that he has caught the bug, lets just make sure it doesn't turn out to be swine flu!
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Yea someone needs to help that guy before he kills himself or others, by the looks of that plane it needs alot of work, and hopefully those painted flamed dont take on a real feel
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<---Body memory is what he needs to develop! And nobody can teach you that...
The risk he's taking, is no worse than I take when racing motorcycles, and he probably won't be going as fast either...
Other than that, what? Put up telltales and windsock on his mini airstrip, monitor weather conditions closely, wait for a windless, or very light wind, as long as it is coming from a consistant direction(tiny headwind being a good thing), wear a helmet, kidney belt, Motocross style body armor, clothing suitable for skin preservation.. Take off and land only INTO the wind!
Have at it man! I would!
:salute RC
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<---Body memory is what he needs to develop! And nobody can teach you that...
The risk he's taking, is no worse than I take when racing motorcycles, and he probably won't be going as fast either...
Muscle memory for airplanes can certainly be taught. You go up with an instructor and he/she keeps you from killing yourself while you're learning. Would you have taken a twitchy motorcycle out in the middle of a race for your first ever ride? Would you race a bike that's been repaired by someone who has never even worked on one before? The risks aren't even close to being similar. The potential for catostrophe for himself and others is much greater when you talking about taking an airplane up without any training. Just do a search on here for Chairboy's experience trying to fly an ultralight taildragger with no training. And keep in mind while you read it that he even had his PPL already. Taildraggers, even ultralight taildraggers, can be twitchy buggers if you don't know what you're doing.
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<---Body memory is what he needs to develop! And nobody can teach you that...
The risk he's taking, is no worse than I take when racing motorcycles, and he probably won't be going as fast either...
Other than that, what? Put up telltales and windsock on his mini airstrip, monitor weather conditions closely, wait for a windless, or very light wind, as long as it is coming from a consistant direction(tiny headwind being a good thing), wear a helmet, kidney belt, Motocross style body armor, clothing suitable for skin preservation.. Take off and land only INTO the wind!
Have at it man! I would!
:salute RC
We need a Darwin award winner category here.
Where are we getting these people from?
RTR
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Yea this is considered an ultra-lite so no license is needed for it.
Todd
Yep.. I think that would be classified as an ultralight so technically no license is needed. :aok
The real question here is when he flew MSFS did he have it on easy mode or full realism. :huh
Seriously, I think that he is ill-advised trying to fly that without some formal training, :pray but well with in his rights. If that is indeed an ultralight.
:rock dude :airplane:
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Geez, it ain't rocket science we're talkin about here, well, maybe for some it would be...
Or, maybe some just need to FEEL like it is... Who knows?
I asked what else? Ya make snide remarks, but haven't answered.. WHAT ELSE?
And please don't make me state the obvious, that would really qualify for your Darwin Award...
RC
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Geez, it ain't rocket science we're talkin about here, well, maybe for some it would be...
Or, maybe some just need to FEEL like it is... Who knows?
Have you ever actually flown a plane? I'm not talking about taking the controls and steering it around the sky, I mean actually flown it. Takeoff, landing whole nine yards?? It's not rocket science, but it's a helluva lot more difficult than an experienced chair pilot would think. Add in the fact it's a taildragger and you're asking for a ride in a long black limo.
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Oh hell, every time I ever hit the end of the back straight, nailed the brake at the last possible second, and then thrown the bike sideways at 70mph, with another riders handlebar less than a foot away from my ribs, I've been askin for that limo ride..... LOL!
Came close more than a few times, But I'm still here!
What else would I have to do, Besides what I listed above, before flying a motorized kite in my back 40?
RC
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Yep.. I think that would be classified as an ultralight so technically no license is needed. :aok
The real question here is when he flew MSFS did he have it on easy mode or full realism. :huh
Seriously, I think that he is ill-advised trying to fly that without some formal training, :pray but well with in his rights. If that is indeed an ultralight.
:rock dude :airplane:
He told me that his uncle who owns a Cessna prop aircraft and has his own strip has taken him up on several flights. So he does have some experience.
And I am not gonna tell a two time winner of the purple heart that he shouldn't do anything. I think he has earned the right.
Todd
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I can't remember the name of the plane or company, but there was some company marketing an ultralight spec plane, possibly using the sharper image catalog. It looked just like that plane, and the marketing implied that it was easy to put it together and any noob could gas it up and go flying with minimal training. Darned if I can remember the name though...
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And I am not gonna tell a two time winner of the purple heart that he shouldn't do anything. I think he has earned the right.
With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely), in this case no it doesn't.
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I don't see any duct tape.... Must not be a Red Green fan. :D
Now where was that pic of the guy that got er home because of some tape.
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He told me that his uncle who owns a Cessna prop aircraft and has his own strip has taken him up on several flights. So he does have some experience.
And I am not gonna tell a two time winner of the purple heart that he shouldn't do anything. I think he has earned the right.
Todd
Shall I congratulate your highly esteemed efforts now or when he plows into something killing himself and probably others?
This is a human factors nightmare in addition to being illegal. Let's start with the fact that your friend's airplane was just damaged... Most likely this airplane runs on magnetos, utilizes an opposed piston-type engine, and has mechanically operated flight control surfaces. This incident could have caused serious damage to either one or both magnetos. While a visual inspection may not reveal anything promising, the capacitor, magnet, and wire leading from the magnetos to the spark plugs could have been fractured or compromised. As we all know, electricity seeks the quickest path to a ground source. If the magnetos and/or associated wiring was damaged, there's a possibility electricity will find an alternate route to ground outside the spark-plug meaning no source of ignition for one or multiple combustion chambers.
As for the pistons and crankshaft... If the magnetos were damaged, timing could have been offset. If timing is offset, it can promote preignition. If preignition occurs on a regular basis, and the engine's piston heads are cracked or fractured internally, the pistons will begin to fail. Not only that, the irregularity of piston movement due to preignition can increase stress on the crankshaft. If the crankshaft is already damaged because of your friend's previous incident, there's a very good possibility of crankshaft failure.
To top everything off, these conditions can take some time to develop serious problems. For instance, while in cruising flight at 65% continuous power. While a failed engine will only result in a loss of power, there's still another factor to consider. Off-field landings. Granted he may land just fine, he's not expecting an engine failure and he probably won't be looking for adequate emergency landing sites while he's on his illegal joy-ride. Both combine to introduce some level of panic.
If panic causes him to yank his control yoke a little more rapidly than usual and his aircraft's flight control cabling and/or surfaces are damaged, the increased stress can cause new problems. Worst-case scenario, his cabling will loosen or snap causing a loss of control. No engine power and unresponsive controls.... you sure his Purple Hearts will save him? Sure, it's worst-case. Yet what's better? Seeing these tragic events unfold or pissing off a friend to see him live another day?
Ignoring the previous situation in which there's a terrific crash, what happens if he takes off, comes back, and lands successfully? Does that mean his plane is alright? Does that mean our pilot is now superior and all-knowing? Heck no! If anything, allowing him to fly again will only increase his dangerous attitude of invulnerability. His newfound success will grow on him until he makes a decision based on past success which results in a worst-case scenario, similar to one described above. Don't allow him to kill himself!
The fact of the matter is your friend is inexperienced and breaking the law. While I'm unaware which airspace is located in your region, to act as Pilot in Command of an aircraft within class E airspace, your friend must have at least a student pilot certificate. Since your friend doesn't seem to have any form of a pilot certificate, he is in violation of FAR 91.13. Sure, the FAR says "the life or property of another." However, have you considered all the homes your friend is flying over after he manages to take off? If an attitude of invulnerability is allowed to grow on him, and he decides to show off, he will kill himself and possibly others. He is wrong and just itching to create another wonderful news story, "Why GA pilots are cancers in our sides."
As others have mentioned, don't promote his behavior of invulnerability by letting him continue flying without training! Be a friend and convince him his life is worth spending a few hundred dollars to make his passion for flying a certificated hobby. While he may already know most of what an instructor has to offer, he won't feel super-special because "he taught himself." This is not a case of "using the right stuff" or "showing I can do it." Both attitudes have been well documented and proven to cause major incidents and terrible accidents. Destroy your friend's macho and invulnerable attitudes before they get the best of him!
Who knows, you could be preventing an accident killing both him and a family.
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That looks like a Fisher Flying Products FP 202
http://www.fisherflying.com/ (http://www.fisherflying.com/)
The Guy is an idiot
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Oh hell, every time I ever hit the end of the back straight, nailed the brake at the last possible second, and then thrown the bike sideways at 70mph, with another riders handlebar less than a foot away from my ribs, I've been askin for that limo ride..... LOL!
Came close more than a few times, But I'm still here!
What else would I have to do, Besides what I listed above, before flying a motorized kite in my back 40?
RC
So... you're going to compare motorcycle racing... with flying... As a licensed pilot, let me be the first to suggest that you may be a man greatly improved by death.
The two are nowhere near the same. For one thing, there are fewer dimensions you are working with in a motorcycle. There is also the ability to "step up" to racing without formal instruction. Start by riding a bicycle. Nowhere NEAR a motorcycle, but the basic principles are there, and the worst you will likely do is scrape a knee. Once you get good with a bike, get a moped to learn about power. Then spend some time on a small motorcycle and gradually advance. Each stage is only a small step forward until you get the handle of things. Problem with flying is, step one can kill you in a heartbeat.
Let me ask you a small favor before I continue to rail on your existence. I don't step into your realm and pretend to know anything about motorcycles. Please don't pretend to know mine.
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Best thread in weeks :aok
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LOL Serenity, You sound like somebody I knew once, long ago.. He was an Schoolboy Butterbar too, still drippin with oil.. One night, some 35 odd yrs ago, he ran his arrogant flappin mouth to the wrong group of drunk Marines.. The poor selfimpressed boy was stuffed inside a barrack wall locker, and then the locker was thrown out a 3rd story window... I had to testify at the court marshal!
LOL, I still laugh about that, LOL! You may be mighty impressed with yourself right now, but you've still got alot to learn kiddo!
There are ppl out there in the big bad world, who will gladly remind you of your place in life.. Carefull, 3 stories is a long way down from your exalted perch in your "realm", lol! Oh yes, by the way, he didn't die, but I wonder if he is still enjoying his wheelchair life..
Yes, some ppl need to FEEL special, and are always shocked when others don't seem to CARE A BIT, :rofl
And still, nobody has answered my question?
I'd fly the frikkin kite, because I've seen enough mountains, to make molehills unnoticeable...
RC
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You don't need a license to fly an ultra-light, or a para sail or any other of those light weight contraptions.
Most pilots of these aircraft don't go over a certain altitude anyway.
Todd
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OK, I feel its a good time to step in.
a. I have flown a microlight (not ultralight)
b. I have raced a motorcycle and still do now and then
It is a similar skill set, lots of checks and procedures and a hell of a lot of thinking on your feet.
:cheers:
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Unsafe? Of course.....
Illegal? Without knowing the specifics of the a/c in question, I can't say.
If operating within the scope of part 103 rules he is well within his rights.
If he doesn't have a decent A/P tech look at it first after that crash, he is well out of his head.
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PS:
Can you ask him to add me to his will?
I'll take the Rotax, please (if there is anything left of it) :D
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LOL Serenity, You sound like somebody I knew once, long ago.. He was an Schoolboy Butterbar too, still drippin with oil.. One night, some 35 odd yrs ago, he ran his arrogant flappin mouth to the wrong group of drunk Marines.. The poor selfimpressed boy was stuffed inside a barrack wall locker, and then the locker was thrown out a 3rd story window... I had to testify at the court marshal!
LOL, I still laugh about that, LOL! You may be mighty impressed with yourself right now, but you've still got alot to learn kiddo!
There are ppl out there in the big bad world, who will gladly remind you of your place in life.. Carefull, 3 stories is a long way down from your exalted perch in your "realm", lol! Oh yes, by the way, he didn't die, but I wonder if he is still enjoying his wheelchair life..
He was trying to tell you help you understand why those with experience are saying he's going to get himself killed. Then you throw up this mess and say he's the one on a three story exalted perch?
What question would you like answered?
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:banana:
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What question would you like answered?
I think he wants an answer to this one.
I asked what else? Ya make snide remarks, but haven't answered.. WHAT ELSE?
RC
:headscratch:
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Here:
Sec. 103.1 - Applicability.
This part prescribes rules governing the operation of ultralight vehicles in the United States. For the purposes of this part, an ultralight vehicle is a vehicle that:
(a) Is used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by a single occupant;
(b) Is used or intended to be used for recreation or sport purposes only;
(c) Does not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate; and
(d) If unpowered, weighs less than 155 pounds; or
(e) If powered:
(1) Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation;
(2) Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons;
(3) Is not capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight; and
(4) Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots calibrated airspeed.
I seriously doubt that this aircraft meets the requirements for empty weight. The engine requirements alone look to be 75 to 100 lbs. That leaves a whopping 154 lbs for the remainder of the aircraft. My bet is this aircraft weighs closer to the 325-350 mark.
I call BS on it being in the ultra-light category.
Stand over there with the other Darwin Award Candidates please.
RTR
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Could make weight if it is Tube/Rag.
Rotax 277 (27-30hp) is ~ 65 pounds
Rotax 377 (35hp) ~ 85 pounds
1/2 VW engine is more toward the 80-90 pound mark.'
Looks more like a Rotax to me.
I would advise you to steer clear of this idiot and give your local constabulary a call.
Constabulary?
You'll confuse the Americans ............... :D
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/dudley_doright.gif)
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Muscle memory for airplanes can certainly be taught. You go up with an instructor and he/she keeps you from killing yourself while you're learning. Would you have taken a twitchy motorcycle out in the middle of a race for your first ever ride? Would you race a bike that's been repaired by someone who has never even worked on one before? The risks aren't even close to being similar. The potential for catostrophe for himself and others is much greater when you talking about taking an airplane up without any training. Just do a search on here for Chairboy's experience trying to fly an ultralight taildragger with no training. And keep in mind while you read it that he even had his PPL already. Taildraggers, even ultralight taildraggers, can be twitchy buggers if you don't know what you're doing.
There is a marked difference between flying an ulrta-light, a LSA (light sport) and any other aircraft requiring a PPL.
If there wasn't, there would be a "one size fits all" certification.
There is not...........
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I think i will call the FAA on this one.
Which haystack would you like them to search first?
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In accordance with FAR's part 103. If that plane weights more then 254 lbs empty weight it's not a ultralight. period.
There are other qualifying rules under part 103 such as fuel capacity,calibrated air speed in level flight and stall speed that must be met.
Looking at the plane. It appears to look similar to a mini-max. I say similar because a mini-max is of wood construction and from the pictures it appears there is a combination of wood, tubing and fabric. it could be built from plans.
As for the owner trying to fly it. He should get instructions in a 2 seat aircraft with similar flight characteristics before trying to fly it.
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Could make weight if it is Tube/Rag.
Rotax 277 (27-30hp) is ~ 65 pounds
Rotax 377 (35hp) ~ 85 pounds
1/2 VW engine is more toward the 80-90 pound mark.'
Looks more like a Rotax to me.
Constabulary?
You'll confuse the Americans ............... :D
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/dudley_doright.gif)
It looks to me that the forward part of the fuselage is wood. The aft section and empennage may be truss and fabric, I don't know. Although the wings and tail don't look fabric covered, but that could just be the quality of the pics.
At any rate, I still doubt this thing weighs in under 300 lbs.
Just my educated guess.
RTR
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I agree with you RTR in all respects.
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Just visited the mini max web site.
If the engine in that thing is a Hirth F-33 it may be just under 254 lbs and would fit in the ultralight category. However, if that is a Rotax engine, it isn't going to qualify as an ultra light as the empty weight for the mini max models with the Rotax are over the weight limit.
At any rate, not knowing what it really is, I suspect this whole scenario will provide some entertaining reading if he ever gets it fixed.
*edit* Never mind, it is a Rotax engine.
I'll stick with my previous posts.
RTR
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In accordance with FAR's part 103. If that plane weights more then 254 lbs empty weight it's not a ultralight. period.
There are other qualifying rules under part 103 such as fuel capacity,calibrated air speed in level flight and stall speed that must be met.
Looking at the plane. It appears to look similar to a mini-max. I say similar because a mini-max is of wood construction and from the pictures it appears there is a combination of wood, tubing and fabric. it could be built from plans.
As for the owner trying to fly it. He should get instructions in a 2 seat aircraft with similar flight characteristics before trying to fly it.
Thanks for jumping in here and regurgitating (partially) what someone else has posted.
Here:
Sec. 103.1 - Applicability.
This part prescribes rules governing the operation of ultralight vehicles in the United States. For the purposes of this part, an ultralight vehicle is a vehicle that:
(a) Is used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by a single occupant;
(b) Is used or intended to be used for recreation or sport purposes only;
(c) Does not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate; and
(d) If unpowered, weighs less than 155 pounds; or
(e) If powered:
(1) Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation;
(2) Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons;
(3) Is not capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight; and
(4) Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots calibrated airspeed.
I seriously doubt that this aircraft meets the requirements for empty weight. The engine requirements alone look to be 75 to 100 lbs. That leaves a whopping 154 lbs for the remainder of the aircraft. My bet is this aircraft weighs closer to the 325-350 mark.
I call BS on it being in the ultra-light category.
Stand over there with the other Darwin Award Candidates please.
RTR
At least you did not waste any paper (but you probably inconvenienced a few electrons)
It looks to me that the forward part of the fuselage is wood. The aft section and empennage may be truss and fabric, I don't know. Although the wings and tail don't look fabric covered, but that could just be the quality of the pics.
At any rate, I still doubt this thing weighs in under 300 lbs.
Just my educated guess.
RTR
I'm sure you are correct.
But, if he IS compliant, there aren't any laws against stupidity.
God bless America.. :aok
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Just visited the mini max web site.
If the engine in that thing is a Hirth F-33 it may be just under 254 lbs and would fit in the ultralight category. However, if that is a Rotax engine, it isn't going to qualify as an ultra light as the empty weight for the mini max models with the Rotax are over the weight limit.
At any rate, not knowing what it really is, I suspect this whole scenario will provide some entertaining reading if he ever gets it fixed.
RTR
Waiting for the film. :x
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OK, I feel its a good time to step in.
a. I have flown a microlight (not ultralight)
b. I have raced a motorcycle and still do now and then
It is a similar skill set, lots of checks and procedures and a hell of a lot of thinking on your feet.
:cheers:
Thanks phatz, I do appreciate that comment, :aok
When you are used to hangin your donut out on the edge racin bikes, goin a little farther isn't a big deal.. :cheers:
Besides, Wilbur and Orville WERE Bicycle Mechanics weren't they! :rofl :aok
And yes, my perch in paradise , is on a mountain of my own hard work, a lifetime worth..
:salute Serenity, I know you're a good kid, wish ya the best! But when ya start slinging the messin around in my realm crap around, it makes my hair stand up.. Ya might want to wire that a little tighter, considering where you are headed..
And, if I had it, would still fly that plane, lol! :neener: :rofl
:salute RC
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The guy said the plane only goes 100 MPH max
Todd
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well at that speed, it wont take long to get to the crash site
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Thanks phatz, I do appreciate that comment, :aok
When you are used to hangin your donut out on the edge racin bikes, goin a little farther isn't a big deal.. :cheers:
Besides, Wilbur and Orville WERE Bicycle Mechanics weren't they! :rofl :aok
And yes, my perch in paradise , is on a mountain of my own hard work, a lifetime worth..
:salute Serenity, I know you're a good kid, wish ya the best! But when ya start slinging the messin around in my realm crap around, it makes my hair stand up.. Ya might want to wire that a little tighter, considering where you are headed..
And, if I had it, would still fly that plane, lol! :neener: :rofl
:salute RC
Again, which question would you like answered?
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It sure looks like that landing gear has no suspension travel whatsoever, so tell your friend to make sure the tires are *not* pumped up to the maximum pressure.
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Thanks phatz, I do appreciate that comment, :aok
When you are used to hangin your donut out on the edge racin bikes, goin a little farther isn't a big deal.. :cheers:
Besides, Wilbur and Orville WERE Bicycle Mechanics weren't they! :rofl :aok
And yes, my perch in paradise , is on a mountain of my own hard work, a lifetime worth..
:salute Serenity, I know you're a good kid, wish ya the best! But when ya start slinging the messin around in my realm crap around, it makes my hair stand up.. Ya might want to wire that a little tighter, considering where you are headed..
And, if I had it, would still fly that plane, lol! :neener: :rofl
:salute RC
My point Rip, is that you simply cannot compare a motorcycle or a car to flying an airplane. Not under any circumstances.
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This thread is :lol
That plane - I'd :bolt:
That guy - soon to be :angel:
<--- Licensed pilot (although not current for 16 years) checked out in Cessna 152, 172 and Piper Cherokee. I wouldn't have any problems getting into that plane if I had build it and it was thoroughly checked out by a qualified A&P tech. Putting it back together after a crash (however light it seemed) and attempting to fly it again with no other inspection of the airworthyness of the bird, and with no formal flight training? The dude would have better chances back in the "sandbox" jumping into a firefight armed only with a Red Rider BB gun.
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My point Rip, is that you simply cannot compare a motorcycle or a car to flying an airplane. Not under any circumstances.
In what respect?Perhaps mechanics alone?
I would say the adrenaline level of both is quite comparable.
Ever ridden a 2-wheeled vehicle at speeds where the dotted yellow line becomes solid?
The ass-pucker factor becomes pretty pretty high on the scale by that point :devil
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Geez, it ain't rocket science we're talkin about here, well, maybe for some it would be...
Or, maybe some just need to FEEL like it is... Who knows?
I asked what else? Ya make snide remarks, but haven't answered.. WHAT ELSE?
And please don't make me state the obvious, that would really qualify for your Darwin Award...
RC
Ok, so you want to know what the other risks are? I'll start with the obvious one. Planes operate in the air. Motorbikes operate on the ground. If something goes wrong on a motorbike, you can stop it and walk away. If something goes wrong in mid-air, you cannot simply stop the plane and walk away. There's a large number of steps that you've got to get right before you can stop the plane and walk away. Those are some things which muscle memory will not teach.
Sure, maybe muscle memory will teach him to hold the wing on to the plane after he overstresses it and rips his wing off, but will muscle memory really teach him not to get in that situation in the first place? Not a chance. Will muscle memory really teach him how to avoid a stall, and recover from the resulting low altitude spin? Not a chance. Will muscle memory really teach him how to inspect his plane before takeoff, and to know when he needs to show the stress marks on the airframe to a mechanic, or when the engine is in too bad a condition for the plane to be flown safely? Not a chance.
What about recognising when the weather may be too bad to fly? These are all things which are absolutely essential to his safety, and which 'muscle memory' won't teach him - not least because muscle memory implies you need to perform a task at least once, and by the sound of this he may not even live long enough to do that. Not only that, those things need your brain, not your muscles. Those are things which only training can teach a man, and training is why 'flight school' exists.
He told me that his uncle who owns a Cessna prop aircraft and has his own strip has taken him up on several flights. So he does have some experience.
And I am not gonna tell a two time winner of the purple heart that he shouldn't do anything. I think he has earned the right.
So, you're going to let your 'respect' for him prevent you from potentially saving his live? Seriously? What will you feel like when he's upside down in his plane, having flipped over on his next takeoff, with a broken neck? I bet you'll be really glad you showed him such respect then. I recommend you think long and hard about this: if you really do respect this man, or even care about him, when you see him doing something that's actually dangerous, you'll let him know that it is dangerous, and do what you can to protect him. That's respect. Keeping your mouth shut and not challenging him because he has two purple hearts is not respect. It doesn't matter whether you think flying with next to zero experience is risky or not, what matters is whether it is risky. And if you read what I wrote above, you'll see that it is.
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Ever ridden a 2-wheeled vehicle at speeds where the dotted yellow line becomes solid?
:aok
If I remember correctly, that happens at @ 115-120 mph. Depends on the time of day and distance between the stripes.
The ass-pucker factor becomes pretty pretty high on the scale by that point :devil
:rofl
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Which haystack would you like them to search first?
The one with the taildragger rudder sticking out of it? :D
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The one with the taildragger rudder sticking out of it? :D
Give that man a See-Garr :D
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The guy said the plane only goes 100 MPH max
Todd
How does he know? :D
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In what respect?Perhaps mechanics alone?
I would say the adrenaline level of both is quite comparable.
Ever ridden a 2-wheeled vehicle at speeds where the dotted yellow line becomes solid?
The ass-pucker factor becomes pretty pretty high on the scale by that point :devil
Thing is you don't have to be going very fast in a taildragger to get that pucker factor. Try and bring the tail up at the wrong time with the wrong wind correction and it'll weathervane into the wind and groundloop. From there it's just luck on whether or not you go onto the lid and from looking at that plane I wouldn't want to be upside down in it. And that's before you even get it in the air.
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And who said the guy wasn't going to inspect it?
From talking with him he seems to have learned from his first mistake and plans to be much safer in the future.
Todd
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And who said the guy wasn't going to inspect it?
From talking with him he seems to have learned from his first mistake and plans to be much safer in the future.
Todd
He promised you could try it, didn't he? :noid
:D
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And who said the guy wasn't going to inspect it?
Do you mean 'inspect', as in do it himself, or 'have it inspected', i.e. by someone else?
Motorbikes AFAIK don't suffer from airframe stress the way planes do.
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If it is a mini-max the VNE on that plane is 100 mph. but the Cruise speed with the 447 rotax is about 65mph with a max speed of approx. 75 mph.
As for the inspection he will need a A@P mechanic with substantial knowledge in wood built aircraft kits. thats if he can find one to even touch it.
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I support any attempt to remove stupidity from the genetic pool.
I support him flying whatever he wants, if he flew it in a 2 mile box with no one else close to him.
I do not support another moron hillbilly redneck putting sane people at risk, purple heart x2 or not. It's laughable to use Orville and Wilbur Wright in defense of this moron....anyone who trivializes a potential flying weapon piloted by this moron as acceptable, might as well just give loaded shotguns to teenagers without teaching them responsible gun ownership.
Oh yeah, Ripchord already does that. Nevermind. :aok Only a disgusting person laughs at a person put in a wheelchair by stupidity in the way he did. What an idiot.
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LOL Serenity, You sound like somebody I knew once, long ago.. He was an Schoolboy Butterbar too, still drippin with oil.. One night, some 35 odd yrs ago, he ran his arrogant flappin mouth to the wrong group of drunk Marines.. The poor selfimpressed boy was stuffed inside a barrack wall locker, and then the locker was thrown out a 3rd story window... I had to testify at the court marshal!
LOL, I still laugh about that, LOL! You may be mighty impressed with yourself right now, but you've still got alot to learn kiddo!
There are ppl out there in the big bad world, who will gladly remind you of your place in life.. Carefull, 3 stories is a long way down from your exalted perch in your "realm", lol! Oh yes, by the way, he didn't die, but I wonder if he is still enjoying his wheelchair life..
RC
Simply disgusting.
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:D I'm enjoying being the devils advocate for the guy with the "plane"..
Some things go without saying, like I already listed earlier, weather, wind and whatnot.. And of course I would approach the whole issue with a methodical series of steps.. I am a risk taker, but I'm not insane! LOL, as a new toy, EVERY part would be checked out, just because I'D BE DIGGIN ON IT MAN!!! I'd repair what was broke, no prob, I have full facilities for most things, and a machine shop nearby for what I can't handle.. Everything would get tested before I actually tried to fly it.. I'd also check to make sure the balance point is within an acceptable range.. Don't want no ugly faceplant surprises, ya know...
Being as I live overlooking the Pac ocean, we have significant wind here.. Fairly often, we have steady 30-40mph winds straight from the west off the ocean.. Not good for trying to fly that thing! Also, the 150+ foot trees, and the 300ft cliff down to the water, are not good either.. LOL, well the cliff would give me 300ft to figure out how it works, LOL! Like those old B/W films, LOL!
But, the wind might be good for some tethered testing, and I think I would try that first.. Like a plate/eyelet attached at the prop flange bolts, and tethered to a 6ft steel post, adjust it up or down.. A 40mph wind should give a fair test, and with an anemometer (sp) you might actually discover the takeoff speed.. Handy thing to know!
What I really like about the idea, is the whole Wright brothers deal.. Nut and Bolts, backyard testing, and then actually flying the thing, with no formal training, virgin experience.. That would be awesome, and worth the risk!!!
I envy the opportunity he has, I'd do it too.. Hell yes :aok
I seem to remember, that Glen Curtis made motorcycles before he made airplanes.. Hmmm, go figure :headscratch:
:salute ALL RC
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Like I posted earlier, if that aircraft is what I think it is (from the mini max website), then it does not fall into the ultralight category in either Empty Weight or stabilized cruise speed.
It must be under 254 pounds and not cruise any faster in level flight than 55kts (that's about 63 mph folks). It must also have a power off stall speed of 24kts and below.
This thing probably needs a C of R, a C of A, and insurance. It also, if not in the ultralight category, requires someone with whatever currently passes for a pilot certificate in the U.S.
If he damages property, or more seriously, hurts or kills someone he will be paying for that mistake for the rest of his life.
So, other than saying you really ought to let him know what the Reg's are and where to find them, I am done with this thread.
RTR
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Like I posted earlier, if that aircraft is what I think it is (from the mini max website), then it does not fall into the ultralight category in either Empty Weight or stabilized cruise speed.
It must be under 254 pounds and not cruise any faster in level flight than 55kts (that's about 63 mph folks). It must also have a power off stall speed of 24kts and below.
This thing probably needs a C of R, a C of A, and insurance. It also, if not in the ultralight category, requires someone with whatever currently passes for a pilot certificate in the U.S.
If he damages property, or more seriously, hurts or kills someone he will be paying for that mistake for the rest of his life.
So, other than saying you really ought to let him know what the Reg's are and where to find them, I am done with this thread.
RTR
Well whether you think it's not an ultra-lite or it is one, the plane isn't required to have any ID#'s or a license to fly it.
The max speed is 100MPH but I seriously doubt that it will cruise at that speed, maybe as he is heading to the ground it might hit 100MPH :D
Todd
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Rip, if you saw a guy out at the racetrack that was unsafe would you say something to him? Even if he was going at it with a gung ho attitude? Would you put yourself on the same track with him?
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Well whether you think it's not an ultra-lite or it is one, the plane isn't required to have any ID#'s or a license to fly it.
The max speed is 100MPH but I seriously doubt that it will cruise at that speed, maybe as he is heading to the ground it might hit 100MPH :D
Todd
Did you even read what I posted earlier?
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Rip, if you saw a guy out at the racetrack that was unsafe would you say something to him? Even if he was going at it with a gung ho attitude? Would you put yourself on the same track with him?
For some types of racing, and isolated events, you have to have an AMA racing licence.. Which means you have to show your licence when you sign in and pay your event entry fee(s).. I have an expert ticket, have since the 70s.. Event tech ppl go over the bikes in the line up, before they are allowed on the track.. But it depends on the event, and the sponsors.. I've raced on alot of outlaw tracks, where the standards are somewhat suspect yes, lol! But thats cool too! Vintage races of all types are a gas, because you see all kinds of rare bikes, and cool contraptions, and the hyper anal AMA bozo's usually aren't around.. But yes, for bigger events, 1/2 mile, mile, and TT, Or MX races with LOTS of riders in the gate, there needs to be some kind of restriction... Things are just too fast and or dangerous for dinkin around..
:salute RC
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Sometimes you just have to stand aside and let darwin do his handiwork.
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"I doubt the plane is registered and probably has no insurance."
As if that makes any difference as to whether he can fly it safely or not. Rules were made for the obedience of idiots and the guidance of wise men, not to feed the FAA and insurance company fat-cats. Thank goodness the pioneers of manned flight didn't go with the po-faced doom-mongers or we'd still be flightless.
My advice to him is to write out his last will and testament and then find somewhere flat with a steady light breeze and no witnesses to hurt when he hits the deck. Then it's just his own neck he'll be risking.
:salute
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For some types of racing, and isolated events, you have to have an AMA racing licence.. Which means you have to show your licence when you sign in and pay your event entry fee(s).. I have an expert ticket, have since the 70s.. Event tech ppl go over the bikes in the line up, before they are allowed on the track.. But it depends on the event, and the sponsors.. I've raced on alot of outlaw tracks, where the standards are somewhat suspect yes, lol! But thats cool too! Vintage races of all types are a gas, because you see all kinds of rare bikes, and cool contraptions, and the hyper anal AMA bozo's usually aren't around.. But yes, for bigger events, 1/2 mile, mile, and TT, Or MX races with LOTS of riders in the gate, there needs to be some kind of restriction... Things are just too fast and or dangerous for dinkin around..
:salute RC
Do you not see any similarities between the danger of racing around other people without mechanical and proficiency checks and the same for aircraft?
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"I doubt the plane is registered and probably has no insurance."
As if that makes any difference as to whether he can fly it safely or not. Rules were made for the obedience of idiots and the guidance of wise men, not to feed the FAA and insurance company fat-cats. Thank goodness the pioneers of manned flight didn't go with the po-faced doom-mongers or we'd still be flightless.
My advice to him is to write out his last will and testament and then find somewhere flat with a steady light breeze and no witnesses to hurt when he hits the deck. Then it's just his own neck he'll be risking.
:salute
Sure insurance won't help him fly it, but if he crashes into anything or anybody on the way down he and his family will be paying for it for the rest of their lives. The pioneers of manned flight did what they did to advance civilization and show the world that flight is possible. They had to risk their neck because their wasn't a trail to follow. "Learn from the mistakes of others because you can't live long enough to make them all yourself."
There is a HUGE community of aviators that would absolutely love to help this guy out. To not seek the advice of experts in a situation where you know nothing and could end up dead is foolish. And to top it all off, he's risking my right to fly while he's doing it. Every time somebody goes up in one of those "dangerous little planes" and crashes into something they try to put more restrictions on aviation as a whole.
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The Dumb is strong in this thread. :aok
RTR
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Do you not see any similarities between the danger of racing around other people without mechanical and proficiency checks and the same for aircraft?
Now that is a rhetorical Question, because I already anwered it.. But I will again... Answer, SOMETIMES!
The prob with the AMA, is that as soon as they become a tracks sanctioning body, they roll in with all the draconian rules of a national event.. Alot of ppl just stop racing, no racers, no entry fees, no ppl in the stands, no gate $, not good for the owners!
So they go outlaw, relax the rules, and the racers come back, so do the spectators, so does the $, go figure...
RC
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Aviation has its own way of dealing with those who are over-confident and under-trained.
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I met this guy named Conrad the other day. We are working a deal for his Jeep. He tells me that he recently traded his 2007 Harley Davidson for a tail dragger plane. I have no idea what model this plane is but it looks real cool.
Conrad tells me he tried to take off in a field next to his house, he said he got two feet off the ground when his left wing clipped the ground and he came down flipping the plane over and busting his prop.
You wondering why I posted all this right??????
Conrad was in the 82nd Airbourne. He served two tours over in the sand box in 2003 and 2004. The only flight experience he has and I am not kidding here........
is playing MS Combat Simulator.
After he gets a new 60" prop he said he will try again. I plan on filming this take off for him. If he wrecks and lives, I may be able to make 10 grand off of america's funniest home video's, if he wrecks and doesn't make it I will sell the footage to the news people Ha Ha :rofl
Todd
I think the previous owner got the better deal in the trade.
And, after the crash and burn, and your profits of the video, you'll get a great deal too... on the Jeep! :rolleyes:
X :salute
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Now that is a rhetorical Question, because I already anwered it.. But I will again... Answer, SOMETIMES!
The prob with the AMA, is that as soon as they become a tracks sanctioning body, they roll in with all the draconian rules of a national event.. Alot of ppl just stop racing, no racers, no entry fees, no ppl in the stands, no gate $, not good for the owners!
So they go outlaw, relax the rules, and the racers come back, so do the spectators, so does the $, go figure...
RC
I think we're missing each other here. I'm not wanting this guy, or anyone in his situation, to get some help so the FAA is happy. I just don't want to see anyone killed behind the controls of an airplane when it's avoidable. I would imagine you feel the same way about your fellow racers.
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...What I really like about the idea, is the whole Wright brothers deal.. Nut and Bolts, backyard testing, and then actually flying the thing, with no formal training, virgin experience.. That would be awesome, and worth the risk!!!
Training came in the form of hundreds of controlled gliding test-flights. Before each flight, a limit was set on distance and altitude. As far as I'm aware, they never exceeded limits agreed upon before a test flight. The Wright brothers had an opportunity to fly a heavier-than-air powered airplane two years before their historical flight. However, they opted to learn essential skills with their gliding experiments before seeking powered flight. Astonishingly, the Wright Brothers did this knowing their competition was right on their tail. They were not stupid.
As for their powered flight, it was only a few feet off the ground, traveling a few hundred yards, while takeoff was controlled by a guide-rail. They also had hundreds of gliding flight under their belt assisting their powered-flight endeavor. Ever hear of the term, "training wheels?" In a race of history, the Wright Brothers made a smart decision to fly under highly restricted conditions to ensure safety. They flew in areas away from population where the only risk was to themselves. Even then, they were smart enough to limit their tests to ensure personal safety.
This isn't even remotely similar to what our anxious veteran is doing. He probably doesn't have any conventional-gear experience, he's probably never test-flown an airplane or glider under restricted conditions, and I doubt he ever considered people downwind of his flight path. If he crashes, the effects carry on years past the crash. From emotional trauma of loved-ones, to funeral bills, to insurance bills, to new regulations being placed on pilots because some moron decided he had "the right stuff." Similar to nuclear explosions, results are carried downwind affecting thousands.
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All true Denholm.. I really admire the pioneers, because they were making it up as they went.. True discovery!
I'd love to get a little taste of that discovery flavor, and thrill.. It can be done succesfully, I have no doubt.. Been done before!
But yeah, I think the guy with the plane may be a little premature, lol.. Bowed to the temptation, went for all the marbles, crashed!
Smashed the plane, Bummer! Reminds me of the movie, "Wings of Eagles" and Spig Weads first solo flight, lol!
RC
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My point Rip, is that you simply cannot compare a motorcycle or a car to flying an airplane. Not under any circumstances.
I agree. I've tried to teach a number of students who were competent drivers (both cars and motorcycles) and they were incapable of learning how to fly. Yea some of them soloed but anything beyond merely driving around the traffic pattern was beyond them.
For someone with the basic abilities required to be a pilot, driving a motorcycle is good exercise and a way to keep the reflexes sharp, but adding the third dimension to the game requires additional abilities that many otherwise talented people simply do not have.
As for the guy in the original post, I also think the plane looks like a mini-max, which can be outfitted as an ultralight if it is built carefully with the right components. It is also a great way for an untrained pedestrian to become a very dead wanna-be pilot.
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That guy has broken a few laws there Todd. Not to mention a few brain cells.
I doubt the plane is registered and probably has no insurance.
He is in for a world of hurt and hopefully doesn't hurt anybody but himself.. he has done alot more damage than just "busting the prop".
I would advise you to steer clear of this idiot and give your local constabulary a call.
RTR
LMFAO are you serious? Life is about fun and risks. Snitching is for punk sissies. Lighten up a bit geez
I'd do it, but im goofy like that and dont mind a few broken bones.
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The Dumb is strong in this thread. :aok
RTR
So is the girly sissy types :aok
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LMFAO are you serious? Life is about fun and risks. Snitching is for punk sissies. Lighten up a bit geez
I'd do it, but im goofy like that and dont mind a few broken bones.
Do you include the neck as a bone?
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LOL Bipolar, come back when you are your other, more sane and controlled bad self.
RTR
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LOL Bipolar, come back when you are your other, more sane and controlled bad self.
I've been doing this stuff for 30 years now... I will call a spade a spade.
RTR
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hey If I had a bigger motor and I was certain of the planes construction
I would try lol.
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I will point out one VERY clear and distinguishing point:
This thread is about FLYING AN AIRCRAFT. Every single person who has come into this thread and HAS flown a plane, and IS at LEAST a licensed pilot, has said this is unsafe and foolish behavior. The ONLY people who say this is a fun, great idea, are the people who have never been there.
A little example of how things can go very badly. I recently "earned" my wings. That is to say, after having my license and having flown for years, I underwent that singular experience in which you discover whether or not you have what it takes to become a pilot.
My background: I am a licensed pilot. I have flown everything from Gliders, to Helicopters, to single engine prop planes, and have formal training for IFR flight using a full-motion US Navy P-3 simulator. My specialties however lie in gliders and light prop aircraft. I started flying when I was 13, and have received formal training from private instructors in gliders, a US Navy instructor in the P-3 Sim, and both Embry Riddle and USAF instructors in Cessnas. After all this training, I am no expert, but I am leaps and bounds ahead of this guy.
I was recently flying my own personal aircraft, a small single engine aircraft that straddles the line between Single Engine Power and Light Sport, on a perfectly clear, calm day. I took off from my home field at Dillingham Airfield, made the 30 minute flight to Honolulu International Airport with my father in the right seat. I followed all of my check-lists, and made a text-book approach as per my training. On the turn from base to final, at about 600ft AGL and midway through my bank, the nose started to drop, and the plane began to roll into the turn. No big deal, just a small gust of wind. I went to make a slight correction on the stick, and found the stick would not move. The nose got lower, and I was headed at the ground while banked. Rudders responded fine, but the stick had absolutely no motion in any direction. Long story short, after a few miliseconds of panic, I collected my wits about me and evaluated the situation. Finally, I realized my father's sunglasses had fallen, and wedged into the well the stick rests in on his side of the aircraft. Well, once the stick was cleared I had a new problem. I was just a hundred feet or so off the ground, with far too much speed due to my dive, and constrained to land on that pass, with traffic running parallel to me on 4R, and traffic at an angle to me on 8L. Whats more, I had to land and hold short before the intersection with 8L in an aircraft notorious for floating. So, with little altitude, WAY too much speed, and not nearly as much runway space to land as I would have liked, I had to use every trick in the book, and fly that fuzzy line between control and stall, in order to shed enough speed to get my gear on the ground. Brakes squeezed, I rolled to a stop mere feet from the Hold Short line at the intersection with 8R, out of breath, shaken, and not anxious to get into the air again.
My point? Even with all the formal instruction I can get, with more experience than most private pilots in a wider variety of aircraft and flying conditions, I still straddled the line between life and death so very nearly I actually thanked a god I didn't believe in when I got both feet on solid ground. And this all happened due to a minor issue with a pair of sunglasses. If I had not had a formal instruction teaching me TECHNIQUES such as crabbing and cross control, if I had not had someone there to monitor the stick during practice with incipient stalls, slow speed flight, and short field landings, I may have suffered a runway incursion, simply crashed before landing, or even worse, caused a collision with the commercial jet on 8R.
There is a LOT more to go wrong in aviation than most people, pilots included, tend to take into account. This is an over-simplification, but I have learned one thing when it comes to flying: Flying from point A to point B can be done by a trained monkey. But when something goes wrong, it goes wrong faster, and farther, than in any other situation in the world. Without formal instruction, this man may well be dead the first time a gust of wind catches him on final approach. God forbid he should have succeeded enough times previously to have found it a good idea to take someone else up with him...
Also, since we like to reference the Wright Brothers a lot here, yes, they survived and excelled. Do you have the statistics for how many before and after them DIDN'T?
(For anyone interested in a little evidence of my story, my father happened to be video taping the approach. While the recovery and landing were cut off, you can see the first few seconds of the control lock, and hear me recognize the issue with the glasses via this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17RqlhH72gc)
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LMFAO are you serious? Life is about fun and risks. Snitching is for punk sissies. Lighten up a bit geez
I'd do it, but im goofy like that and dont mind a few broken bones.
grow up bipolar, life is about being responsible. you want to break you own bones or kill yourself, hey your life, just dont show up at the er and expect me to pay for it. if that guys was to go to the middle of nowhere then its natural selection, but if he crashes into somebody's house or property then he needs to be reported. and btw u wouldnt call police officers snitches or punks do you? but that's what they do, they report to the court illegal activity, or take dumb people to the hospital, which is probably what this guy needs.
semp
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Wild animal trainers, gator wrestlers, big air bike jumpers (who said MC's don't move in 3 dimensions, or fly), lots of ppl do things that others would consider crazy or stupid.. Some ask why, others why not! I'm a why not guy myself..
My life has never been mundane, and I like it that way... If it was, I'd die from the sheer boredom of it...
If an ultralite, or whatever, crossed my path for the right price, I'll grab it, and do it... NO question!
It's no worse a risk, than the 20 rider Kamikazi Drag Race into the first turn in MX racing, when the turn is only 3 bikes wide (Maybe)
Ya have to remember, that the rules on the track are variable as well, as clean or dirty as you like.. Often between hard rivals, it becomes like chariot racing in the Roman Hippodrome.. Rules and common decency, go right out the window, when the gate drops!
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/Melee.jpg)
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I cannot read through the ignorance.
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I cannot read through the ignorance.
Ask yourself honestly, does he (I) care?
RC
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The Dumb is strong in this thread. :aok
RTR
Figures you have to resort to name calling..........
but then again who takes anyone from Canadia seriously anyway :D
Todd
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I will point out one VERY clear and distinguishing point:
This thread is about FLYING AN AIRCRAFT. Every single person who has come into this thread and HAS flown a plane, and IS at LEAST a licensed pilot, has said this is unsafe and foolish behavior. The ONLY people who say this is a fun, great idea, are the people who have never been there.
A little example of how things can go very badly. I recently "earned" my wings. That is to say, after having my license and having flown for years, I underwent that singular experience in which you discover whether or not you have what it takes to become a pilot.
My background: I am a licensed pilot. I have flown everything from Gliders, to Helicopters, to single engine prop planes, and have formal training for IFR flight using a full-motion US Navy P-3 simulator. My specialties however lie in gliders and light prop aircraft. I started flying when I was 13, and have received formal training from private instructors in gliders, a US Navy instructor in the P-3 Sim, and both Embry Riddle and USAF instructors in Cessnas. After all this training, I am no expert, but I am leaps and bounds ahead of this guy.
I was recently flying my own personal aircraft, a small single engine aircraft that straddles the line between Single Engine Power and Light Sport, on a perfectly clear, calm day. I took off from my home field at Dillingham Airfield, made the 30 minute flight to Honolulu International Airport with my father in the right seat. I followed all of my check-lists, and made a text-book approach as per my training. On the turn from base to final, at about 600ft AGL and midway through my bank, the nose started to drop, and the plane began to roll into the turn. No big deal, just a small gust of wind. I went to make a slight correction on the stick, and found the stick would not move. The nose got lower, and I was headed at the ground while banked. Rudders responded fine, but the stick had absolutely no motion in any direction. Long story short, after a few miliseconds of panic, I collected my wits about me and evaluated the situation. Finally, I realized my father's sunglasses had fallen, and wedged into the well the stick rests in on his side of the aircraft. Well, once the stick was cleared I had a new problem. I was just a hundred feet or so off the ground, with far too much speed due to my dive, and constrained to land on that pass, with traffic running parallel to me on 4R, and traffic at an angle to me on 8L. Whats more, I had to land and hold short before the intersection with 8L in an aircraft notorious for floating. So, with little altitude, WAY too much speed, and not nearly as much runway space to land as I would have liked, I had to use every trick in the book, and fly that fuzzy line between control and stall, in order to shed enough speed to get my gear on the ground. Brakes squeezed, I rolled to a stop mere feet from the Hold Short line at the intersection with 8R, out of breath, shaken, and not anxious to get into the air again.
My point? Even with all the formal instruction I can get, with more experience than most private pilots in a wider variety of aircraft and flying conditions, I still straddled the line between life and death so very nearly I actually thanked a god I didn't believe in when I got both feet on solid ground. And this all happened due to a minor issue with a pair of sunglasses. If I had not had a formal instruction teaching me TECHNIQUES such as crabbing and cross control, if I had not had someone there to monitor the stick during practice with incipient stalls, slow speed flight, and short field landings, I may have suffered a runway incursion, simply crashed before landing, or even worse, caused a collision with the commercial jet on 8R.
There is a LOT more to go wrong in aviation than most people, pilots included, tend to take into account. This is an over-simplification, but I have learned one thing when it comes to flying: Flying from point A to point B can be done by a trained monkey. But when something goes wrong, it goes wrong faster, and farther, than in any other situation in the world. Without formal instruction, this man may well be dead the first time a gust of wind catches him on final approach. God forbid he should have succeeded enough times previously to have found it a good idea to take someone else up with him...
Also, since we like to reference the Wright Brothers a lot here, yes, they survived and excelled. Do you have the statistics for how many before and after them DIDN'T?
(For anyone interested in a little evidence of my story, my father happened to be video taping the approach. While the recovery and landing were cut off, you can see the first few seconds of the control lock, and hear me recognize the issue with the glasses via this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17RqlhH72gc)
Way to recognize and assess the situation, and get yourself out of the cascade of failure. It's always something small and unresolved or over-reacted to, that leads to bad things. Too many people just freeze. :salute
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grow up bipolar, life is about being responsible. you want to break you own bones or kill yourself, hey your life, just dont show up at the er and expect me to pay for it. if that guys was to go to the middle of nowhere then its natural selection, but if he crashes into somebody's house or property then he needs to be reported. and btw u wouldnt call police officers snitches or punks do you? but that's what they do, they report to the court illegal activity, or take dumb people to the hospital, which is probably what this guy needs.
semp
kid, im grown. Life is about having fun and taking risks. Now i agree with him taking it out in to an open field and doing it. I dont believe in having fun at someone elses expense. If he hurts himself the fine, but dont hurt people around him. #2 Why do you assume i dont have insurance? Is that one of you stereotypical labels you like to throw out? Spewing your complete ignorance from your mind? #3. For those on here that know me in real life know police dont bother me. I dont fear them nor should anyone. I would say the same thing to them as i would you or anyone else. I do respect them for doing their job like i do the city trash man.
Try stepping away from your comp and living a little. Life is a drug. And it is the most addictive drug. The closer to death you are, the better the payout. Now go outside and play some hopscotch. Come back and tell me how that went for you. Everyone has to start living somewhere.
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If you can read what Serenity posted, and still stand by the opinion that this guy should try to fly the plane without any training, I am simply astounded. I've learnt something new about people today, and it's not a good thing either...
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kid, im grown. Life is about having fun and taking risks. Now i agree with him taking it out in to an open field and doing it. I dont believe in having fun at someone elses expense. If he hurts himself the fine, but dont hurt people around him. #2 Why do you assume i dont have insurance? Is that one of you stereotypical labels you like to throw out? Spewing your complete ignorance from your mind? #3. For those on here that know me in real life know police dont bother me. I dont fear them nor should anyone. I would say the same thing to them as i would you or anyone else. I do respect them for doing their job like i do the city trash man.
Try stepping away from your comp and living a little. Life is a drug. And it is the most addictive drug. The closer to death you are, the better the payout. Now go outside and play some hopscotch. Come back and tell me how that went for you. Everyone has to start living somewhere.
I used to work in a life insurance handling claims. got lots of them from people that lived life at their fullest and died by sheer stupidity, and lots of times, they took family members and others around with them. I have read way to many reports and saw way too many pictures of bodies from idiots that died living on the edge. I love sky diving, and I am afraid of heights, now that's fun, however I would not pack my chute unless I was trained nor would I fly the airplane just to live a little more that would be stupidity.
and do you know that if they guy takes that plane to an empty field, crashes and kills himself that the end of it with no damages? how much do you think it would cost clean up the area, remove the body, how many people will be involved in the recovery, funeral expenses, coroner expenses, his family, and of course the people that saw the body will only say cool no biggie for me it didnt hurt me. lots of the claims i had were from medical personnel, police officers etc that probably saw way too many bodies/injuries for people that "lived a little" as you said. bs i say to that.
semp
semp
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Way to recognize and assess the situation, and get yourself out of the cascade of failure. It's always something small and unresolved or over-reacted to, that leads to bad things. Too many people just freeze. :salute
Agreed.
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I used to work in a life insurance handling claims. got lots of them from people that lived life at their fullest and died by sheer stupidity, and lots of times, they took family members and others around with them. I have read way to many reports and saw way too many pictures of bodies from idiots that died living on the edge. I love sky diving, and I am afraid of heights, now that's fun, however I would not pack my chute unless I was trained nor would I fly the airplane just to live a little more that would be stupidity.
i lived in a funeral home for most of my childhood and teen years. Even worked there for a couple of years helping my father pick up bodies and work the funerals. Ive seen what "ignorance" can do. Like drunk drivers killing children, that is ignorance. I said before i dont believe in living life at the expense of someone elses life. But i do like to sit on the fence of life and death. Life is so short and i refuse to live my life the way society expects me to.
and do you know that if they guy takes that plane to an empty field, crashes and kills himself that the end of it with no damages? how much do you think it would cost clean up the area, remove the body, how many people will be involved in the recovery, funeral expenses, coroner expenses, his family, and of course the people that saw the body will only say cool no biggie for me it didnt hurt me. lots of the claims i had were from medical personnel, police officers etc that probably saw way too many bodies/injuries for people that "lived a little" as you said. bs i say to that.
You can sit there and live your dreaded life behind a desk and do as you please. I will "live my life" the way i want. The difference in me and you is fear. You have it and let it control you. I have it and let it feed me. You know when youve lived life? When you step to that edge and the fear takes your breath away but you still jump. That is living life. When you hop on a bike knowing the chances of you walking away are 50% but you still gun it and hit near 200. The shaky feeling you have at the end, well, thats life saying hello.
Everyone has a difference passion. Yours may be this game or fishing. Mine is a bit more risky and has a much greater reward in the end.
Let me say this once again. I DO NOT believe and do not promote doing such things if it involves possibly hurting or killing someone else. If your going to do things of this nature, dont involve anyone else.
Now if that guy wants to do this, then so be it. That is his life and i wish him the best.
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bipolar,
I have never lived behind a desk nor relied on a computer for my thrills. I lived outside doing things most folks wouldn't do if they were paid 3 times what I was paid in both uniforms and that includes you. You've never been where I have been nor done the same things.
There is a difference in taking risks for thrills and taking reasonable risks as a part of life. I don't think you have grasped that concept yet from what you have posted here. Advising someone else to do so because you would like the "thrill" or like to "feel alive" is immature for you, and foolish for the person you give the advice to should they follow it.
There is a reason stunt people are paid for their job and they are considered professionals. You would not find one of them taking an unknown plane up without having been trained to fly first and doing everything they could to mitigate risks for themselves and everyone in the area.
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bipolar,
I have never lived behind a desk nor relied on a computer for my thrills. I lived outside doing things most folks wouldn't do if they were paid 3 times what I was paid in both uniforms and that includes you. You've never been where I have been nor done the same things.
There is a difference in taking risks for thrills and taking reasonable risks as a part of life. I don't think you have grasped that concept yet from what you have posted here. Advising someone else to do so because you would like the "thrill" or like to "feel alive" is immature for you, and foolish for the person you give the advice to should they follow it.
There is a reason stunt people are paid for their job and they are considered professionals. You would not find one of them taking an unknown plane up without having been trained to fly first and doing everything they could to mitigate risks for themselves and everyone in the area.
drop the ignorant assumptions and then post :aok
until then go outside and rake your yard for some of those "thrills"
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I can tell you have a difficult time reading.
We're against this veteran jumping in and flying for two reasons:
1. He apparently never considered other people.
2. Him crashing will only tighten an already taut leash on General Aviation.
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rake the yard?
more like fertilize the yard
yea go fertilize your yard MAN!
Todd
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Ask yourself honestly, does he (I) care?
RC
That's cool, but when your friend ends up a smudge on some dirt don't expect sympathy.
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"Life is a drug. And it is the most addictive drug. The closer to death you are, the better the payout."
A very good modernisation of Heidegger's dictum: 'No man has truly lived until he has stared death in the face.' :aok
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I can tell you have a difficult time reading.
We're against this veteran jumping in and flying for two reasons:
1. He apparently never considered other people.
2. Him crashing will only tighten an already taut leash on General Aviation.
+2.
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I read every post in this thread (and man, do my eyes hurt :O)
what I have noticed is that more people are concerned about this one person with whom is there is a higher chance of him taking this thing to a safe location than not... i.e. little to no risk of collateral damage to pursue rights given to him by better men than ANYONE on this forum than they are about when they see some guy driving like an idiot on the freeways. Sure, in a car there is no vertical dimension... usually... :noid however there is the potential to kill/wound many more people in a +/- 4000lb vehicle that there is in that a/c.
Whistle blowers and nay sayers and GO-GET-UMS!... I to an extent agree a little with everyone here. I have flown , parachuted (static line and free fall) I have rock climbed, conducted Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System (FRIES) operations rappelled from rock faces and off helicopters in the air and I could go on and on and on and on... So for that, I tend to agree with those who seem to share my philosophy on living life.
I also believe that people should have some experience and training before they get in over their heads.
I agree that people should pursue happiness to the full extent of their abilites so long as it doesn't impede others, i.e. not hurting others/damaging others property.
anyways, I'd pose this question... Has anyone, especially the OP, considered that he may be thrill seeking to feed a desire for the adrenaline rush you experience in combat? IF that is the case, then talk to him about it before that develops into a bigger problem because this goes far beyond some licensed pilot crying about restrictions.... (P.S. dont like restrictions, dont fly! because Im willing to bet that MOST restrictions were put into place because LICENSED pilots effed up, more so than someone not licensed trying)
Remember!
Death smiles at us all... Smile back :rock
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rake the yard?
more like fertilize the yard
yea go fertilize your yard MAN!
Todd
WHAT!!!!!!! Dont do that. Fertilizer is full of methane gas and could catch fire to your yard!! Even your neighbors yard. Then the police, firemen neighbors and insurance men have to witness the pure carnage. Hope you arent like the rest of us (assuming) you dont have home owners insurance. OHHH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!
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I read every post in this thread (and man, do my eyes hurt :O)
what I have noticed is that more people are concerned about this one person with whom is there is a higher chance of him taking this thing to a safe location than not... i.e. little to no risk of collateral damage to pursue rights given to him by better men than ANYONE on this forum than they are about when they see some guy driving like an idiot on the freeways. Sure, in a car there is no vertical dimension... usually... :noid however there is the potential to kill/wound many more people in a +/- 4000lb vehicle that there is in that a/c.
Whistle blowers and nay sayers and GO-GET-UMS!... I to an extent agree a little with everyone here. I have flown , parachuted (static line and free fall) I have rock climbed, conducted Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System (FRIES) operations rappelled from rock faces and off helicopters in the air and I could go on and on and on and on... So for that, I tend to agree with those who seem to share my philosophy on living life.
I also believe that people should have some experience and training before they get in over their heads.
I agree that people should pursue happiness to the full extent of their abilites so long as it doesn't impede others, i.e. not hurting others/damaging others property.
anyways, I'd pose this question... Has anyone, especially the OP, considered that he may be thrill seeking to feed a desire for the adrenaline rush you experience in combat? IF that is the case, then talk to him about it before that develops into a bigger problem because this goes far beyond some licensed pilot crying about restrictions.... (P.S. dont like restrictions, dont fly! because Im willing to bet that MOST restrictions were put into place because LICENSED pilots effed up, more so than someone not licensed trying)
Remember!
Death smiles at us all... Smile back :rock
I would have to agree with you 100% on everything. Well said :aok :salute
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Whenever I set out to do something, I ask one simple question..........what could possibly go wrong? most of the time it's with heavy sarcasm, but sometimes its legit. I have been around avaition for 20+ years in one form or another and thats where the sarcasm comes in...mabye tempting fate a little. But this I think, is tempting fate quite a bit more. I would have to agree with the whole getting an A&P to look it over, then I'd talk to someone who's flown this type before(plus find out which class it falls into might be a huge help). Hell, if you wanna feel like mr. risk taker, find a video about flying this thing. I wouldn't go in without any knowledge whatsoever, I would want at least some kind of fam on this thing before I'd even think about taking it up. I think it would be a hoot to fly it though.
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Sure, if you are going right up to the edge, ya might as well take a peek into the abyss, just don't fall in.. Tweek the ol hypothalmus a bit, taste a little of that fight/flight adrenalin rush.. Oh yeah, been doing that all my life, in and out of the military!
As another poster said earlier, I think that plane is a little more substantial than an "ultralight".. Might very well require a licence of some kind.. It is instrumented, might be enclosed by the look of it, has primitive 'brakes' on the tiny wheels, which look more suited to concrete than mowed buffalo grass in a cow pasture.. It definately wouldn't be my first choice to do my own little "discovery of flight" excercise.. But if it fell into my lap thru some deal I had made, then that would be the one... I'd do it too!
I would really be worried more about damaging the machine, than myself.. The fix vs fun factor on this thing would be most unfavorable.. 5 minutes of fun, for ? ? ? of repairs after crunching it? Thats not good!
For my purposes, this would be more appropriate... Perfect, a tail dragger too! After all, I don't want 1/2 the apple, I want the whole damn thing, LOL.. Learning a step at a time, on my own, would be a TOTAL GAS man, make memories for a lifetime..
Has a 15mph stall speed, and has the Bleriot look going on, I like it!
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/Robertson_b1-rd-3.jpg)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/b1-rd-AV08-4.jpg)
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He's not that smart is he but on the upside he'll probably give you his jeep for some Play-Doh :aok
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what I have noticed is that more people are concerned about this one person with whom is there is a higher chance of him taking this thing to a safe location than not... i.e. little to no risk of collateral damage to pursue rights given to him by better men than ANYONE on this forum than they are about when they see some guy driving like an idiot on the freeways. Sure, in a car there is no vertical dimension... usually... :noid however there is the potential to kill/wound many more people in a +/- 4000lb vehicle that there is in that a/c...
Your observations are quite accurate. Yet there's also some reasoning behind our vigilance which you may not be aware of.
How likely is it that driving violations are enforced? For instance, driving over the speed limit, forgetting to turn on your lights, not adhering to roadsigns (rolling stops, not yielding, etc...) and on and on...?
Compare that to aviation, where the FAA will hammer you for any violation they become aware of. In addition, the FAA has multiple resources available to pin you with almost any violation they feel you committed. Radar echoes and ATC communication frequencies are both recorded providing records of aircraft activity. Consider it the same as a police officer riding next to you.
In addition, every time General Aviation is involved in another incident or accident, the FAA seems to believe tighter regulations are the cure. The problem here is the fact that General Aviation spans from Light Aircraft (such as what our veteran is flying) all the way to heavy 747s. As long as it's not a scheduled operation, the flight falls under the "General Aviation" category. Here's where the unfair situations arise. Due to manufacturing deficiencies, wings falling off Light Sport experimental aircraft will limit activities of other aircraft being operated as General Aviation, even if they're not Light Sport and/or experimental. Therefore any incident or accident within General Aviation will affect all General Aviation flights because of tightened regulations.
To put this in perspective, it's the same as banning objects from "flying" out of your mouth because someone spat on a rug. A few days later, you laugh while eating lunch and a crumb inadvertently flies out of your mouth. Being understanding, the FAA decides to be lenient and fines you $2,000. Just a few days later you get sick and puke into a toilet, only to be fined $5,000.
...(P.S. dont like restrictions, dont fly! because Im willing to bet that MOST restrictions were put into place because LICENSED pilots effed up, more so than someone not licensed trying)...
You're correct. Yet the actions of uncertified pilots will tighten leashes upon certificated pilots.
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To look back at enforcement, I just received this in my inbox:
Aerial oil spill response operations are being conducted in the Gulf of Mexico for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.
Surface burning of oil is currently in progress and numerous large fixed-wing aircraft will be spraying chemical dispersants at very low altitude. Stay 3 NM clear of dispersant and spotter aircraft, and transit the area above 2,000 feet MSL. Refer to FAA NOTAMS for the most current information
Monitor 123.45 mHz for de-confliction. Aircraft interfering with dispersant and burn operations will be reported to the FAA.
The FAA interprets "interfering" to mean flying within 3nm of dispersant or spotter aircraft at or below 2,000FT MSL. Heck, I'd even go as far as to stay 3nm away from dispersant and spotter aircraft while flying above 2,000FT MSL.
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I would fly it, would be a thrill. Somewhere quiet where no one else could get hurt. You gotta die sometime.
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I was recently flying my own personal aircraft, a small single engine aircraft that straddles the line between Single Engine Power and Light Sport, on a perfectly clear, calm day. I took off from my home field at Dillingham Airfield, made the 30 minute flight to Honolulu International Airport with my father in the right seat. I followed all of my check-lists, and made a text-book approach as per my training. On the turn from base to final, at about 600ft AGL and midway through my bank, the nose started to drop, and the plane began to roll into the turn. No big deal, just a small gust of wind. I went to make a slight correction on the stick, and found the stick would not move. The nose got lower, and I was headed at the ground while banked. Rudders responded fine, but the stick had absolutely no motion in any direction. Long story short, after a few miliseconds of panic, I collected my wits about me and evaluated the situation. Finally, I realized my father's sunglasses had fallen, and wedged into the well the stick rests in on his side of the aircraft. Well, once the stick was cleared I had a new problem. I was just a hundred feet or so off the ground, with far too much speed due to my dive, and constrained to land on that pass, with traffic running parallel to me on 4R, and traffic at an angle to me on 8L. Whats more, I had to land and hold short before the intersection with 8L in an aircraft notorious for floating. So, with little altitude, WAY too much speed, and not nearly as much runway space to land as I would have liked, I had to use every trick in the book, and fly that fuzzy line between control and stall, in order to shed enough speed to get my gear on the ground. Brakes squeezed, I rolled to a stop mere feet from the Hold Short line at the intersection with 8R, out of breath, shaken, and not anxious to get into the air again.
While you lived, you could have done better. How?
What could you do differently in the future that turns this story into nothing nearly as the self imposed stress and drama into a ho-hum, no big deal and routine day out flying? The drama in your story comes entirely from you placing it upon yourself, not the airplane doing it, not the other airplanes in the area doing it and not the newly smashed sunglasses doing it.
What were you not when you were at <500' AGL, approach speed + lots, high and unsure of a safe outcome of the landing? It starts with an S.
What do you do when you realize you do not mean the requirements of the phrase that starts with S?
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I would fly it, would be a thrill. Somewhere quiet where no one else could get hurt. You gotta die sometime.
:aok :devil thats why i like you.
To me, there is no such thing as death, there is only change
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While you lived, you could have done better. How?
What could you do differently in the future that turns this story into nothing nearly as the self imposed stress and drama into a ho-hum, no big deal and routine day out flying? The drama in your story comes entirely from you placing it upon yourself, not the airplane doing it, not the other airplanes in the area doing it and not the newly smashed sunglasses doing it.
What were you not when you were at <500' AGL, approach speed + lots, high and unsure of a safe outcome of the landing? It starts with an S.
What do you do when you realize you do not mean the requirements of the phrase that starts with S?
Perhaps it's the way you phrased this, but I have no clue what in god's name you are talking about.
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If this situation happened in the future, what, if anything would you do different?
These are the normal debriefing items I'd give to anyone who did what you did. First, you ended up alive. Good job. Now it's time to analyze what you could have done better for the future.
By my measure you had:
1.) A flight control issue that had been resolved. (e.g. No problems at all and a fully functioning aircraft.)
2.) A LAHSO restriction. This shortened your available landing runway when you accepted the LAHSO clearance as you referenced.
3.) Clear VFR weather in the daytime with good visibility.
4.) Were fast. Every approach you have a target approach speed and for your airplane I imagine it's the same of changes very little no matter what the weight or conditions are. Since I know nothing about your airplane for this example lets call it 70 KIAS. You were probably closer to 90 if you're as fast as you say you were. This will as you pointed out causes excessive float especially when in ground effect.
5.) Parallel and crossing traffic.
Starting with point number one you had a fully functioning airplane, no emergency and no reason to question its airworthiness. This is in your favor and its a good thing because you have every reason to expect it will perform for you as it has in the past. So now you're on an approach in a perfect airplane.
Next is point number 2. It's clear and a million with excellent visibility and you have all the traffic in sight. No big deal here, right? Flying a perfect airplane in perfect conditions, life is good.
Adding in point number 3 you're landing on a shortened runway from 6952' to about 3500 to 3600' with the acceptance of the LAHSO clearance. I'm sure 3500' is no big deal in your airplane as is the case for many/most piston singles out there but it's shorter than your average GA runway and worthy of extra caution. When you fly into a 3500' runway normally I'm sure you plan your approach, fly a fairly precise pattern and nail your target airspeed all the way down final so as to minimize float, touch down firmly and do whatever your AFM/POH has you do if that runway is classified as a short field. This is no big deal, flying a perfect airplane into a runway of suitable length (3500') for it to operate.
Point number 4 we start to get away from flying your perfect airplane into a suitable runway by introducing the fact that we're fast. Really fast. Unsafe fast. Fast enough that now the outcome of the approach and subsequent landing is in doubt. What do you do in this situation normally? If you are not stabilized (that's the "S" word) then you go around. I imagine the Go-Around procedure for your airplane is fairly simple bringing in the power, retracting to a certain flap stage and climbing at either Vx or Vy or other perscribed speed until you reach a safe altitude. If you're that far over your airspeed on final you go around. You're trained to do this and you do it. So now we get to the first critique item of the day. In the end, go around if you're not stabilized on approach.
Point 5. You mentioned the parallel traffic landing 4R and the crossing guy landing 8L. You seem to feel as though you are boxed in with nowhere to go and nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to also feel as though you were obligated to land no matter what was going on. This is not true either. Neither of these airplanes can or should affect your decision and your obligation to discontinue the approach if it is no longer safe to do so. If you go around, fly your runway heading, see and avoid the two other airplanes and follow ATCs instructions if they have any to give immediately you won't have an issue. The guys in the tower are depending on you to make safely your LAHSO restriction because the landing clearance they gave to the 8L traffic is predicated upon that. If you can't do it the first thing you do is tell ATC "Unable." "Unable Land and Hold Short 8L." "Unable LAHSO." "Unable landing restriction." You do this as soon as possible so the other pilots and the controllers in that tower cab can make the safest decision possible. This might be ordering you to go-around which as we touched on in point 4 should have been your intial course of action in the first place rather than continuing an unsafe and unnecessary approach without telling anyone.
These situations happen in the real world and there is a reason that come companys in their Ops Specs prohibit the acceptance of a LAHSO clearance. I've flown for some companies that allow it, others that don't. One isn't more right or more wrong than the other it's just a decision based on what one operator might deem as safety factor but this also depends on the type of equipment they're operating. Flying in Part 121 passenger service I was permitted to accept a LAHSO where prior to that flying for a smaller company in light business jets I was prohibited. In my current business jet and operation I can accept a LAHSO but there are some runway configurations at certain airports I won't. This is no big deal either if you tell ATC at initial check in "Unable Land and Hold Short." They simply don't put someone on the crossing runway when you're landing and that's that.
Even the professionals mess up. On short final, inside a mile to Runway 22 at LaGuardia there was a Delta MD80 variant rolling out on 31. Watching them on the rollout they were not slowing as quickly as I hoped and I perked up a little more brushing my thumb over the Go-Around button on the thrust levers. They were slowing, slowing slowing and just when you thought they would make it they called on the radio "DL 1234, We're not going to make the hold short." Before ATC even had a chance to issue an instruction it I had already initiated a go-around and the other pilot and I cleaned the airplane up on schedule. ATC issued us a go-around by saying "Airliner 5678 Go Around" after we had initiated not even a second before. "5678 Going Around" is the reply and we're once again climbing. There was no harm done, no hurt feelings and no ruffled feathers because everyone was safe. A visual downwind and rejoining the localizer when ATC had made a spot for us (at LGA this isn't as easy as you think) in the conga line had us back on approach and safely on the ground shortly thereafter.
Charlotte. NC is another airport that has a lot of potential for go-arounds and traffic conflicts partly due to its layout, partly due to it has a large staff of controller trainees and also because of the operations. General aviation piston, turboprop and jet airplanes mixing with a US Airways hub and other major airline operations has aircraft performance differences as well as pilot experience/comfort differences. All the more reason to keep your head on a swivel and your eyes and ears open. In fact in my time flying for a 121 operator in the dozen or so go arounds I made, most were at Charlotte, some at LGA while still others in PHL. I didn't have a single one at an outstation that I can recall which were typically smaller airports and lower traffic volumes.
In your situation you're in visual weather conditions, have the other airplanes in sight and would have no trouble seeing and avoiding them as you maneuvered on a go-around. That's the route I'd take in the future instead of trying to make a bad situation worse putting your airplane, your life, your fathers life and the lives on the other airplane at risk doing something you might not be capable of doing. It sounds like the airplane was barely capable of doing what it did and that is attributed more to luck than to pilot skill because you should have never been in that situation to begin with. A little thought of what the safest and most prudent action would be while taking this experience with you in the future will do you a good service.
A go-around is always an option until it isn't an option. That may sound like something weird an old timer might say but there's more truth to it than you know taken a face value. Good luck.
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If this situation happened in the future, what, if anything would you do different?
These are the normal debriefing items I'd give to anyone who did what you did. First, you ended up alive. Good job. Now it's time to analyze what you could have done better for the future.
By my measure you had:
1.) A flight control issue that had been resolved. (e.g. No problems at all and a fully functioning aircraft.)
2.) A LAHSO restriction. This shortened your available landing runway when you accepted the LAHSO clearance as you referenced.
3.) Clear VFR weather in the daytime with good visibility.
4.) Were fast. Every approach you have a target approach speed and for your airplane I imagine it's the same of changes very little no matter what the weight or conditions are. Since I know nothing about your airplane for this example lets call it 70 KIAS. You were probably closer to 90 if you're as fast as you say you were. This will as you pointed out causes excessive float especially when in ground effect.
5.) Parallel and crossing traffic.
Starting with point number one you had a fully functioning airplane, no emergency and no reason to question its airworthiness. This is in your favor and its a good thing because you have every reason to expect it will perform for you as it has in the past. So now you're on an approach in a perfect airplane.
Next is point number 2. It's clear and a million with excellent visibility and you have all the traffic in sight. No big deal here, right? Flying a perfect airplane in perfect conditions, life is good.
Adding in point number 3 you're landing on a shortened runway from 6952' to about 3500 to 3600' with the acceptance of the LAHSO clearance. I'm sure 3500' is no big deal in your airplane as is the case for many/most piston singles out there but it's shorter than your average GA runway and worthy of extra caution. When you fly into a 3500' runway normally I'm sure you plan your approach, fly a fairly precise pattern and nail your target airspeed all the way down final so as to minimize float, touch down firmly and do whatever your AFM/POH has you do if that runway is classified as a short field. This is no big deal, flying a perfect airplane into a runway of suitable length (3500') for it to operate.
Point number 4 we start to get away from flying your perfect airplane into a suitable runway by introducing the fact that we're fast. Really fast. Unsafe fast. Fast enough that now the outcome of the approach and subsequent landing is in doubt. What do you do in this situation normally? If you are not stabilized (that's the "S" word) then you go around. I imagine the Go-Around procedure for your airplane is fairly simple bringing in the power, retracting to a certain flap stage and climbing at either Vx or Vy or other perscribed speed until you reach a safe altitude. If you're that far over your airspeed on final you go around. You're trained to do this and you do it. So now we get to the first critique item of the day. In the end, go around if you're not stabilized on approach.
Point 5. You mentioned the parallel traffic landing 4R and the crossing guy landing 8L. You seem to feel as though you are boxed in with nowhere to go and nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to also feel as though you were obligated to land no matter what was going on. This is not true either. Neither of these airplanes can or should affect your decision and your obligation to discontinue the approach if it is no longer safe to do so. If you go around, fly your runway heading, see and avoid the two other airplanes and follow ATCs instructions if they have any to give immediately you won't have an issue. The guys in the tower are depending on you to make safely your LAHSO restriction because the landing clearance they gave to the 8L traffic is predicated upon that. If you can't do it the first thing you do is tell ATC "Unable." "Unable Land and Hold Short 8L." "Unable LAHSO." "Unable landing restriction." You do this as soon as possible so the other pilots and the controllers in that tower cab can make the safest decision possible. This might be ordering you to go-around which as we touched on in point 4 should have been your intial course of action in the first place rather than continuing an unsafe and unnecessary approach without telling anyone.
These situations happen in the real world and there is a reason that come companys in their Ops Specs prohibit the acceptance of a LAHSO clearance. I've flown for some companies that allow it, others that don't. One isn't more right or more wrong than the other it's just a decision based on what one operator might deem as safety factor but this also depends on the type of equipment they're operating. Flying in Part 121 passenger service I was permitted to accept a LAHSO where prior to that flying for a smaller company in light business jets I was prohibited. In my current business jet and operation I can accept a LAHSO but there are some runway configurations at certain airports I won't. This is no big deal either if you tell ATC at initial check in "Unable Land and Hold Short." They simply don't put someone on the crossing runway when you're landing and that's that.
Even the professionals mess up. On short final, inside a mile to Runway 22 at LaGuardia there was a Delta MD80 variant rolling out on 31. Watching them on the rollout they were not slowing as quickly as I hoped and I perked up a little more brushing my thumb over the Go-Around button on the thrust levers. They were slowing, slowing slowing and just when you thought they would make it they called on the radio "DL 1234, We're not going to make the hold short." Before ATC even had a chance to issue an instruction it I had already initiated a go-around and the other pilot and I cleaned the airplane up on schedule. ATC issued us a go-around by saying "Airliner 5678 Go Around" after we had initiated not even a second before. "5678 Going Around" is the reply and we're once again climbing. There was no harm done, no hurt feelings and no ruffled feathers because everyone was safe. A visual downwind and rejoining the localizer when ATC had made a spot for us (at LGA this isn't as easy as you think) in the conga line had us back on approach and safely on the ground shortly thereafter.
Charlotte. NC is another airport that has a lot of potential for go-arounds and traffic conflicts partly due to its layout, partly due to it has a large staff of controller trainees and also because of the operations. General aviation piston, turboprop and jet airplanes mixing with a US Airways hub and other major airline operations has aircraft performance differences as well as pilot experience/comfort differences. All the more reason to keep your head on a swivel and your eyes and ears open. In fact in my time flying for a 121 operator in the dozen or so go arounds I made, most were at Charlotte, some at LGA while still others in PHL. I didn't have a single one at an outstation that I can recall which were typically smaller airports and lower traffic volumes.
In your situation you're in visual weather conditions, have the other airplanes in sight and would have no trouble seeing and avoiding them as you maneuvered on a go-around. That's the route I'd take in the future instead of trying to make a bad situation worse putting your airplane, your life, your fathers life and the lives on the other airplane at risk doing something you might not be capable of doing. It sounds like the airplane was barely capable of doing what it did and that is attributed more to luck than to pilot skill because you should have never been in that situation to begin with. A little thought of what the safest and most prudent action would be while taking this experience with you in the future will do you a good service.
A go-around is always an option until it isn't an option. That may sound like something weird an old timer might say but there's more truth to it than you know taken a face value. Good luck.
That is called being SERVED
Dammmmm Golfer is keeping it real!
Todd
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No it's not. Please don't interpret it as such because that's a disservice to what it really is.
It's a critique of a pilots performance based on an evaluation (or in this case an evaluation of Serenity's telling of the story) which are continuous and ongoing in ones flying career whether it be professional or recreational.
It's the same critique I'd give a private pilot and a professional alike and it's told objectively, without intent to demean, belittle or discourage the person receiving the critique. It's the same critique I'd expect to receive had I made the same decisions. A critical element to learning is making mistakes as well as learning from the mistakes of others. This early in his career he hasn't had the exposure to make that many and will continually find himself in new situations (this is true for every pilot out there regardless of logbook hours) that will call upon their experience and judgement to see them through. This experience of Serenity's is a golden opportunity to not only learn what happens when you have a slightly out of control feeling, which is uncomfortable and good for learning in and of itself, but also to learn that it's up to you to prevent yourself from letting a future situation develop into that feeling ever again.
It's not an ooh-rah, backslap, high five moment to come through what Serenity did. It was being smiled upon by fate on that day and I'm confident that he had the attention of the controller in the Tower Cab with his thumb on the mic switch, the pilots in the other airplane landing on 8L who were primed for a go-around and the airplane landing on his parallel runway watching the situation unfold. He wasn't alone.
It's not a beat down by any means. It's illuminating the mistakes you made so you can learn from them and be safer in the future.
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Excelent write up golfer, but I think you're missing his motives in sharing the story! Just for a fraction of time our young pilot friend had loss of control and death flash before his mind's eye. Sure it turned out ok and to be something almost comical, with hindsight. All the debrief material in the world has little impact compared to the rush of thought that he has experienced in that fleeting few seconds. Considering he is young it is likely that he wants to share this experience with others as much as possible, because quite simply put and quite understandably, it scared the living soup out of him and left a permanent mark.
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There is nothing funny or comical about what happened on that approach and it should leave a mark.
I also haven't missed any points. Age is irrelevant. He has the certificate in his pocket, the airplane doesn't care how old you are, the ground doesn't care how old you are and gravity doesn't care how old you are. All that matters are the decisions you make based on the experience you have. I had more than 2000 hours in transport category jets before I could even rent a car. Did my date of birth play a part in successfully handling various emergencies in numerous types of airplanes or did the experience I'd gathered on my own and with the help of others better prepare me to handle those events?
As a pilot you are never committed to do something someone on the ground says to if it's not what you want to do. That's the final authority of the Pilot in Command to use their Emergency authority. This doesn't have to be officially declaring an emergency especially if there is no time. (There is also no stigma to declaring an emergency. I've never filled out an "FAA Emergency Report Form" because they don't exist. The most I've ever done is a company incident report and the firefighters/rescue persons asking for some basic info.) Do what you need to do to remedy the situation, keep the airplane right side up and going where you want and then if there is time let people know what it is you're doing. Aviate, Navigate and then Communicate. Very little that happens in airplanes require fast hands and quick thinking. Solving a flight control malfunction such as this is one of the very few and it gets your attention RIGHT NOW!
He did exactly right by remaining calm, assessing the situation and solving the problem. The problem was then gone. The situation was over. The airplane is in perfect flying condition, working as advertised and he's now 20 or more knots fast trying to land on a short runway. We're back to basic airmanship and aeronautical decision making. That's all.
Like I said, it's a critique. It's a "good job for living, now lets see what we can do better for next time" learning experience. It's not meant as anything less.
In the future if there's something you're not comfortable with Serenity use the word "Unable." Unable LAHSO today. Unable Runway 4L due to winds, request Runway 8L. Unable heading due to weather, mountain, party balloons, sharks with laser beams, etc. Don't let someone force you into something you're not comfortable with. You absolutely have the final authority when you're the PIC. Good luck.
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:salute
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You seem to also feel as though you were obligated to land no matter what was going on.
Actually, you hit the nail on the head here. Working with instructors around this particular airport for years, I was brought up to feel that any slip-up at this particular tower, and I could expect to lose my license and be fined out of existence. I will say, I did feel a particular NEED to land on the first go.
Before continuing, I want to state that when I read your debrief, I saw it as instruction offered, not as an attack or anything, so please do not read this as argument, or rebuttal.
The idea of a go-around actually entered into my mind just as I leveled out and regained control. Three things jumped into my head: Despite having had good results from removing the glasses, I wasn't positive that was the cause of the loss of control; The landing wouldn't be as perfect as I would have liked, I knew with a little finesse, I could make it; and third, I was shaken up. The safest thing for me to do was get on the ground while I was still thinking clearly.
Even after landing, I wasn't convinced the glasses were the sole root of the problem, I'm still not. The way the controls seized just didn't seem right for interference with the stick, so I just wanted to hit the dirt, ASAP. In retrospect, that is not good motivation to go to ground. That would imply I would land even if I would miss the LAHSO. That's not the case, but I won't lie, my ADM wasn't perfect, and I was shaken.
There were two key factors to deciding to try to stick the landing. Firstly, I was fast, but low. As I saw it, my extra speed at that point in my approach was compensated for by my lack of altitude at that point in the approach. Secondly, I felt I would be able to determine several more seconds into the approach whether I could absolutely make it, or not. And with my power-to-weight ratio and climb rate, so even if I touched down, and just could not apply brakes fast enough, I knew I could throttle up and get back above pattern altitude in MUCH less time than it would take to continue slowing down.
Long story short, shaken and unsure, the one thing I knew was that I was confident I could make the landing, and that if it ever got too close for comfort, I could get back into the air without violating the LAHSO.
Perhaps it was the wrong decision. As a third party observer, I know I would be questioning my own decision right now. Had the altitude or speed been even the slightest bit different, I may have made a different decision. And I was CERTAINLY wrong to have felt constrained to land. But that was my thought process.
Both your post and mine however, go a LONG way to emphasizing the need for instruction BEFORE climbing into ANY cockpit!
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Both your post and mine however, go a LONG way to emphasizing the need for instruction BEFORE climbing into ANY cockpit!
Just as my flippant remark about flying the crazy plane in the OP is backed up by limited yet comprehensive and succesfull flying instruction in my past, the subject of the OP had also had previous flying instruction, so why are all the licenced pilots making this point so vehemently? It sounds a little bit like the licences pilots here are feeling like 'I had to work really hard to earn the right to fly, so why should he be able to fly for free damnit'
:neener:
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Just as my flippant remark about flying the crazy plane in the OP is backed up by limited yet comprehensive and succesfull flying instruction in my past, the subject of the OP had also had previous flying instruction, so why are all the licenced pilots making this point so vehemently? It sounds a little bit like the licences pilots here are feeling like 'I had to work really hard to earn the right to fly, so why should he be able to fly for free damnit'
:neener:
As I understood it, he had no formal instruction. Learning to fly a plane and jump out of one are very different things! (Although I must say, I do hope to jump out of one soon, although I'm not old enough yet :( )
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He told me that his uncle who owns a Cessna prop aircraft and has his own strip has taken him up on several flights. So he does have some experience.
And I am not gonna tell a two time winner of the purple heart that he shouldn't do anything. I think he has earned the right.
Todd
:D
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:D
ROFL. If that counts for training, I should be IFR multi engine rated!
(P-3 Simulator with a Navy instructor :D )
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It sounds a little bit like the licences pilots here are feeling like 'I had to work really hard to earn the right to fly, so why should he be able to fly for free damnit'
:neener:
Or maybe it's that the licensed pilots in here know exactly what the guy is in for and don't want to see him kill himself and put another black mark on our hobby?
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And who said the guy wasn't going to inspect it?
From talking with him he seems to have learned from his first mistake and plans to be much safer in the future.
Todd
In war, and in flight, the first casualty is always the plan.
-Penguin
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I hate to say it, but this guy is so screwed.
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Darwin Award FTW! Wait, FTW stands for For The Win, but this would be a fail, which would defy logic. However, a fail could be a win if it was funn- Wait! What am I saying? This man could kill himself, or others, are you mad, man? Get him of that contraption this very instant!
-Penguin
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If he decides to try to fly the thing again, please videotape it... If for nothing else, "suicide by aircraft crash" may require additional documentation when determining if any VA survivors benefits will be given to his next of kin.
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ROFL. If that counts for training, I should be IFR multi engine rated!
(P-3 Simulator with a Navy instructor :D )
Not necessarily.......
Was the Navy instructor your Uncle?
:P
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At least let him read FAR part 103:
http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/FAR.part103.html
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LOL Serenity, You sound like somebody I knew once, long ago.. He was an Schoolboy Butterbar too, still drippin with oil.. One night, some 35 odd yrs ago, he ran his arrogant flappin mouth to the wrong group of drunk Marines.. The poor selfimpressed boy was stuffed inside a barrack wall locker, and then the locker was thrown out a 3rd story window... I had to testify at the court marshal!
LOL, I still laugh about that, LOL! You may be mighty impressed with yourself right now, but you've still got alot to learn kiddo!
There are ppl out there in the big bad world, who will gladly remind you of your place in life.. Carefull, 3 stories is a long way down from your exalted perch in your "realm", lol! Oh yes, by the way, he didn't die, but I wonder if he is still enjoying his wheelchair life..
Yes, some ppl need to FEEL special, and are always shocked when others don't seem to CARE A BIT, :rofl
And still, nobody has answered my question?
I'd fly the frikkin kite, because I've seen enough mountains, to make molehills unnoticeable...
RC
Oh how i laughed when i read this, there are few instances in life so funny as a gang of moron's crippling some poor guy for life.
PRAT
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Not necessarily.......
Was the Navy instructor your Uncle?
:P
lol. Nope, family friend though, and an Annapolis grad. Was with VP-47 at the time, IIRC.
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Aviation has its own way of dealing with those who are over-confident and under-trained.
But the self cleaning oven isn't as efficient as it could be, eagle eyes.
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In war, and in flight, the first casualty is always the plan.
-Penguin
Couldn't be more wrong about flight. 99.9% of the time my flights go exactly as planned.
If your flight doesn't go as planned on a very regular basis, you are doing something very wrong.
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Couldn't be more wrong about flight. 99.9% of the time my flights go exactly as planned.
If your flight doesn't go as planned on a very regular basis, you are doing something very wrong.
That doesn't change the fact that everyone urging this guy to go fly his plane blatantly has little respect for human life.
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That doesn't change the fact that everyone urging this guy to go fly his plane blatantly has little respect for human life.
It should be the right of every human to engage in activities that may be fatal to themself.
BUT................
ONLY if they are the sole person that may get hurt during the course of such endeavor.
No one has the right to put another person's life in danger.
Where is it written that I am required to respect this guy's life.
If he wanted to take this thing out to the Bonneville salt flats (or someplace similar) where there wasn't a chance of injuring anyone else, I'd give him the old :aok :aok.
He is a big boy and knows the risk involved.
You can't fix stupid.
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You can't fix stupid.
Amen.
-Penguin
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He is a big boy and knows the risk involved.
You can't fix stupid.
That depends on what your definition of stupid is. I think like everyone else when they first start out in something give themselves a limit, and each time out they push that limit a little further than the last time.
Todd
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I think like everyone else when they first start out in something give themselves a limit,
I think like everyone else, when they first start out in something that could easily end in death they learn as much as possible from other people who are more experienced than they are.
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Anyone who willingly jumps out of perfectly good airplanes either is an idiot or isnt all there to begin with.
In this case maybe both.
On the other hand.
These guys didnt have much flight instruction when they started either
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/chronicle-of-flight1.jpg)
(http://wrightbrothersfacts.com/images/wright_brothers.jpg)
Either way. It should make for an amusing video
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That depends on what your definition of stupid is. I think like everyone else when they first start out in something give themselves a limit, and each time out they push that limit a little further than the last time.
Todd
Endangering others.
I'm not by any means an opponent of him putting himself in harms way.
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Anyone who willingly jumps out of perfectly good airplanes either is an idiot or isnt all there to begin with.
In this case maybe both.
On the other hand.
These guys didnt have much flight instruction when they started either
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/chronicle-of-flight1.jpg)
(http://wrightbrothersfacts.com/images/wright_brothers.jpg)
Either way. It should make for an amusing video
Orville and Wilbur didn't have a flight instructor, but they took months to "get it" enough to fly some 59 seconds and 852 feet, in incremental steps, on a beach devoid of any other people.
You think our Red Baron is going to do it that way, or just hop in, turn the key, and get a rush?
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Anyone who willingly jumps out of perfectly good airplanes either is an idiot or isnt all there to begin with.
In this case maybe both.
On the other hand.
These guys didnt have much flight instruction when they started either
Better men than any of us jumped out of "perfectly good airplanes" to protect the world, and as one Paratrooper that is part of that tradition, I find it offensive.
I also say that anyone who says "perfectly good airplane" hasn't ridden on a C-130, Shirpa, or C-17, but for us it is a joke. One of those things where we tease the AF about like they tease us about being dirt darts.
Of course, defending peoples freedom whether past or present doesn't mean we seperate the intelligent from the rest... It's kind of an all or nothing.
~Airborne
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Better men than any of us jumped out of "perfectly good airplanes" to protect the world, and as one Paratrooper that is part of that tradition, I find it offensive.
I also say that anyone who says "perfectly good airplane" hasn't ridden on a C-130, Shirpa, or C-17, but for us it is a joke. One of those things where we tease the AF about like they tease us about being dirt darts.
Of course, defending peoples freedom whether past or present doesn't mean we seperate the intelligent from the rest... It's kind of an all or nothing.
~Airborne
+1 Airborne :salute
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"Life is a drug. And it is the most addictive drug. The closer to death you are, the better the payout."
A very good modernisation of Heidegger's dictum: 'No man has truly lived until he has stared death in the face.' :aok
I find that the best high is an adrenaline high, and im more of a "why not" person myself.
If I have the money for something that i think would be interesting or exciting ill go for it, but coming from someone that has had a bit of training in both gliders and light planes, what he did was dangerous and endangered other people.
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I can't wait to get the Darwin Award association to return my e-mail!
-Penguin
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Like I tell my wife all the time.
I will point to a plane in the sky..."I can fly that.....I may not be able to land it..but I think I could fly it...lol"
I hope if he has kids, he has a nice big insurance policy for them.. cuz I'm sure he will need to land it if he gets it up in the air.
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Like I tell my wife all the time.
I will point to a plane in the sky..."I can fly that.....I may not be able to land it..but I think I could fly it...lol"
I hope if he has kids, he has a nice big insurance policy for them.. cuz I'm sure he will need to land it if he gets it up in the air.
There is only one certainty in this equation. There will be a landing.
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There is only one certainty in this equation. There will be a landing.
Hopefully not a SAPP one (although that seems very likely at this point).
I just thought again about what this guy's planning to do (assuming he hasn't already done it), and his sheer self-obsessed stupidity absolutely astounds me. I don't care whether he can pull it off or not, he's still a bloody retard for trying to do this.
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You think our Red Baron is going to do it that way, or just hop in, turn the key, and get a rush?
Didn't he already? Isn't that how he "pranged his kite" to begin with?
Conrad tells me he tried to take off in a field next to his house, he said he got two feet off the ground when his left wing clipped the ground and he came down flipping the plane over and busting his prop.
And, good news.
Conrad was in the 82nd Airbourne. He served two tours over in the sand box in 2003 and 2004. The only flight experience he has and I am not kidding here........
All is well.
:airplane:
wrongway
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Better men than any of us jumped out of "perfectly good airplanes" to protect the world, and as one Paratrooper that is part of that tradition, I find it offensive.
I also say that anyone who says "perfectly good airplane" hasn't ridden on a C-130, Shirpa, or C-17, but for us it is a joke. One of those things where we tease the AF about like they tease us about being dirt darts.
Of course, defending peoples freedom whether past or present doesn't mean we seperate the intelligent from the rest... It's kind of an all or nothing.
~Airborne
"or isnt all there to begin with"
(Why is it people only pay attention to the parts they feel like?)
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Orville and Wilbur didn't have a flight instructor, but they took months to "get it" enough to fly some 59 seconds and 852 feet, in incremental steps, on a beach devoid of any other people.
You think our Red Baron is going to do it that way, or just hop in, turn the key, and get a rush?
Exactly why I said "Either way. It should make for an amusing video"
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UPDATE:
The plane in this thread is repaired and now for sale.
He said the lowest he would go is $2500.00
The plane is worth more than that. He is in a tight spot and needs the cash. Sounds like the rest of America huh?
Anyway let me know via PM if your interested and I will give you his #
Todd
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UPDATE:
The plane in this thread is repaired and now for sale.
He said the lowest he would go is $2500.00
The plane is worth more than that. He is in a tight spot and needs the cash. Sounds like the rest of America huh?
Anyway let me know via PM if your interested and I will give you his #
Todd
Well thats tempting. I sure wish I had $2500 and a place to put a plane lol
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Yep.. I think that would be classified as an ultralight so technically no license is needed. :aok
The real question here is when he flew MSFS did he have it on easy mode or full realism. :huh
Seriously, I think that he is ill-advised trying to fly that without some formal training, :pray but well with in his rights. If that is indeed an ultralight.
:rock dude :airplane:
On that you are wrong, He needs an sport license to fly an that plane as an ultralight. He will not need to get a physical but he is required to get the sport license.
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Anyone who willingly jumps out of perfectly good airplanes either is an idiot or isnt all there to begin with.
In this case maybe both.
On the other hand.
These guys didnt have much flight instruction when they started either
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/chronicle-of-flight1.jpg)
(http://wrightbrothersfacts.com/images/wright_brothers.jpg)
Either way. It should make for an amusing video
And one of them, Wilber I believe, died in a crash May 30, 1912
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And one of them, Wilber I believe, died in a crash May 30, 1912
Not even close. Unless he caught typhoid from a plane.
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On that you are wrong, He needs an sport license to fly an that plane as an ultralight. He will not need to get a physical but he is required to get the sport license.
If it is a true ultralight (and meets the following requirements of FAR part 103 as follows)
* Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation;
* Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons;
* Is not capable of more than 55 knots (63 mph) calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight; and
* Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots (28 mph) calibrated airspeed.
...then there is no license needed. Never has been for an ultralight. The LSA classification, however is the newest category in the FAA rules.
However, I doubt that this particular a/c complies with any of that.
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UPDATE:
The plane in this thread is repaired and now for sale.
He said the lowest he would go is $2500.00
The plane is worth more than that. He is in a tight spot and needs the cash. Sounds like the rest of America huh?
Anyway let me know via PM if your interested and I will give you his #
Todd
Repaired?
By a certified A & P mechanic?
After a nice ground loop like that? No thanks...
I prefer to know EXACTLY every step of "repair"
Logs would be preferred :devil
http://www.mykitlog.com/VonMessa (http://www.mykitlog.com/VonMessa)